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aus+uk / uk.transport.london / 1992 stock refurb

SubjectAuthor
* 1992 stock refurbMuttley
`* 1992 stock refurbRecliner
 `* 1992 stock refurbMuttley
  +- 1992 stock refurbRecliner
  `* 1992 stock refurbGraeme Wall
   `* 1992 stock refurbRecliner
    `* 1992 stock refurbGraeme Wall
     `* 1992 stock refurbRecliner
      `* 1992 stock refurbMuttley
       +* 1992 stock refurbRecliner
       |`* 1992 stock refurbMuttley
       | `* 1992 stock refurbRecliner
       |  `* 1992 stock refurbMuttley
       |   `- 1992 stock refurbRecliner
       +* 1992 stock refurbGraeme Wall
       |`* 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
       | `* 1992 stock refurbRecliner
       |  `- 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
       `* 1992 stock refurbMarland
        +* 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |+* 1992 stock refurbGraeme Wall
        ||`- 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |`* 1992 stock refurbMuttley
        | `* 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |  +* 1992 stock refurbMarland
        |  |`* 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |  | +* 1992 stock refurbMuttley
        |  | |`* 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |  | | `- 1992 stock refurbMuttley
        |  | +* 1992 stock refurbRobin
        |  | |`* 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |  | | `* 1992 stock refurbRobin
        |  | |  `- 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |  | `* 1992 stock refurbMarland
        |  |  `* 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |  |   `* 1992 stock refurbMarland
        |  |    `* 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |  |     `* 1992 stock refurbMarland
        |  |      +* 1992 stock refurbRecliner
        |  |      |`- 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |  |      `- 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        |  `* 1992 stock refurbMuttley
        |   `- 1992 stock refurbRoland Perry
        `- 1992 stock refurbMuttley

Pages:12
1992 stock refurb

<uli0qm$1vt3o$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:02:14 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:02 UTC

First train is running, Geoff Marshal goes for a ride:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aU4X4O_WUI

I was thinking what a nice refurb until it got to 9:23 where some old
graffiti corrosion on a door is clearly visible. You'd think they'd have
sorted that out for gods sake or at least replaced it with an undamaged door
from another train as it looks a right mess.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

<s60fN.44923$Sl64.42133@fx09.ams1>

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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:34:16 GMT
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:34 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> First train is running, Geoff Marshal goes for a ride:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aU4X4O_WUI
>
> I was thinking what a nice refurb until it got to 9:23 where some old
> graffiti corrosion on a door is clearly visible. You'd think they'd have
> sorted that out for gods sake or at least replaced it with an undamaged door
> from another train as it looks a right mess.

More than one door was scratched or had graffiti. I suppose they're not
part of the refurbishment.

So the trains lose their high windows that curve into the roof, with the
new PIS blocking the upper curve of the windows.

I wonder which research labs were contracted to create the inevitable
harder-than-diamond seats? Maybe the new moquette hides a bed of nails?

Re: 1992 stock refurb

<uljt22$2cb6c$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:10:10 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:10 UTC

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:34:16 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> First train is running, Geoff Marshal goes for a ride:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aU4X4O_WUI
>>
>> I was thinking what a nice refurb until it got to 9:23 where some old
>> graffiti corrosion on a door is clearly visible. You'd think they'd have
>> sorted that out for gods sake or at least replaced it with an undamaged door
>> from another train as it looks a right mess.
>
>More than one door was scratched or had graffiti. I suppose they're not
>part of the refurbishment.
>
>So the trains lose their high windows that curve into the roof, with the
>new PIS blocking the upper curve of the windows.

Yes, bit of a shame but LU don't seem too concerned about passengers seeing
out these days.

>I wonder which research labs were contracted to create the inevitable
>harder-than-diamond seats? Maybe the new moquette hides a bed of nails?

I wouldn't be at all surprised. Though fewer passengers will get to appreciate
the seats anyway given how many appear to have been taken out for accessability
reasons. Space for 2 (or is it 4?) wheelchairs per car seems pretty
excessive unless its only a few cars in the train.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

<7zffN.44933$Sl64.30272@fx09.ams1>

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 by: Recliner - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 11:08 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:34:16 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> First train is running, Geoff Marshal goes for a ride:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aU4X4O_WUI
>>>
>>> I was thinking what a nice refurb until it got to 9:23 where some old
>>> graffiti corrosion on a door is clearly visible. You'd think they'd have
>>> sorted that out for gods sake or at least replaced it with an undamaged door
>>> from another train as it looks a right mess.
>>
>> More than one door was scratched or had graffiti. I suppose they're not
>> part of the refurbishment.
>>
>> So the trains lose their high windows that curve into the roof, with the
>> new PIS blocking the upper curve of the windows.
>
> Yes, bit of a shame but LU don't seem too concerned about passengers seeing
> out these days.
>
>> I wonder which research labs were contracted to create the inevitable
>> harder-than-diamond seats? Maybe the new moquette hides a bed of nails?
>
> I wouldn't be at all surprised. Though fewer passengers will get to appreciate
> the seats anyway given how many appear to have been taken out for accessability
> reasons. Space for 2 (or is it 4?) wheelchairs per car seems pretty
> excessive unless its only a few cars in the train.

Two wheelchair bays per 8-car train:

"The new Central line trains will have two wheelchair bays, each able to
accommodate two wheelchair users. Twelve seats have been removed to create
the wheelchair bays. The spaces can be used for standing passengers or for
luggage when not required by a wheelchair user."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/central-line-trains-cctv-seats-moquette-tfl-london-underground-b1120566.html

Re: 1992 stock refurb

<ulkkt7$2fu4i$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:57:11 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:57 UTC

On 16/12/2023 10:10, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:34:16 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> First train is running, Geoff Marshal goes for a ride:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aU4X4O_WUI
>>>
>>> I was thinking what a nice refurb until it got to 9:23 where some old
>>> graffiti corrosion on a door is clearly visible. You'd think they'd have
>>> sorted that out for gods sake or at least replaced it with an undamaged door
>>> from another train as it looks a right mess.
>>
>> More than one door was scratched or had graffiti. I suppose they're not
>> part of the refurbishment.
>>
>> So the trains lose their high windows that curve into the roof, with the
>> new PIS blocking the upper curve of the windows.
>
> Yes, bit of a shame but LU don't seem too concerned about passengers seeing
> out these days.

Given that the majority spend the entire trip staring at their phones,
that seems fair.

>
>> I wonder which research labs were contracted to create the inevitable
>> harder-than-diamond seats? Maybe the new moquette hides a bed of nails?
>
> I wouldn't be at all surprised. Though fewer passengers will get to appreciate
> the seats anyway given how many appear to have been taken out for accessability
> reasons. Space for 2 (or is it 4?) wheelchairs per car seems pretty
> excessive unless its only a few cars in the train.
>

Wheelchair spaces have tip-up seats, as on buses.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

<tUkfN.44948$Sl64.10976@fx09.ams1>

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Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:12:57 GMT
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 by: Recliner - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:12 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 16/12/2023 10:10, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:34:16 GMT
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> First train is running, Geoff Marshal goes for a ride:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aU4X4O_WUI
>>>>
>>>> I was thinking what a nice refurb until it got to 9:23 where some old
>>>> graffiti corrosion on a door is clearly visible. You'd think they'd have
>>>> sorted that out for gods sake or at least replaced it with an undamaged door
>>>> from another train as it looks a right mess.
>>>
>>> More than one door was scratched or had graffiti. I suppose they're not
>>> part of the refurbishment.
>>>
>>> So the trains lose their high windows that curve into the roof, with the
>>> new PIS blocking the upper curve of the windows.
>>
>> Yes, bit of a shame but LU don't seem too concerned about passengers seeing
>> out these days.
>
> Given that the majority spend the entire trip staring at their phones,
> that seems fair.
>
>>
>>> I wonder which research labs were contracted to create the inevitable
>>> harder-than-diamond seats? Maybe the new moquette hides a bed of nails?
>>
>> I wouldn't be at all surprised. Though fewer passengers will get to appreciate
>> the seats anyway given how many appear to have been taken out for accessability
>> reasons. Space for 2 (or is it 4?) wheelchairs per car seems pretty
>> excessive unless its only a few cars in the train.
>>
>
> Wheelchair spaces have tip-up seats, as on buses.

Are you sure? I couldn't see any in the video, and they're not mentioned
in the reports:

"The new Central line trains will have two wheelchair bays, each able to
accommodate two wheelchair users. Twelve seats have been removed to create
the wheelchair bays. The spaces can be used for standing passengers or for
luggage when not required by a wheelchair user."

Re: 1992 stock refurb

<ulkm19$2fu4i$2@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:16:24 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:16 UTC

On 16/12/2023 17:12, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 16/12/2023 10:10, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:34:16 GMT
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> First train is running, Geoff Marshal goes for a ride:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aU4X4O_WUI
>>>>>
>>>>> I was thinking what a nice refurb until it got to 9:23 where some old
>>>>> graffiti corrosion on a door is clearly visible. You'd think they'd have
>>>>> sorted that out for gods sake or at least replaced it with an undamaged door
>>>>> from another train as it looks a right mess.
>>>>
>>>> More than one door was scratched or had graffiti. I suppose they're not
>>>> part of the refurbishment.
>>>>
>>>> So the trains lose their high windows that curve into the roof, with the
>>>> new PIS blocking the upper curve of the windows.
>>>
>>> Yes, bit of a shame but LU don't seem too concerned about passengers seeing
>>> out these days.
>>
>> Given that the majority spend the entire trip staring at their phones,
>> that seems fair.
>>
>>>
>>>> I wonder which research labs were contracted to create the inevitable
>>>> harder-than-diamond seats? Maybe the new moquette hides a bed of nails?
>>>
>>> I wouldn't be at all surprised. Though fewer passengers will get to appreciate
>>> the seats anyway given how many appear to have been taken out for accessability
>>> reasons. Space for 2 (or is it 4?) wheelchairs per car seems pretty
>>> excessive unless its only a few cars in the train.
>>>
>>
>> Wheelchair spaces have tip-up seats, as on buses.
>
> Are you sure? I couldn't see any in the video, and they're not mentioned
> in the reports:
>
> "The new Central line trains will have two wheelchair bays, each able to
> accommodate two wheelchair users. Twelve seats have been removed to create
> the wheelchair bays. The spaces can be used for standing passengers or for
> luggage when not required by a wheelchair user."
>

Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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 by: Recliner - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 16/12/2023 17:12, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 16/12/2023 10:10, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:34:16 GMT
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> First train is running, Geoff Marshal goes for a ride:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aU4X4O_WUI
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was thinking what a nice refurb until it got to 9:23 where some old
>>>>>> graffiti corrosion on a door is clearly visible. You'd think they'd have
>>>>>> sorted that out for gods sake or at least replaced it with an undamaged door
>>>>>> from another train as it looks a right mess.
>>>>>
>>>>> More than one door was scratched or had graffiti. I suppose they're not
>>>>> part of the refurbishment.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the trains lose their high windows that curve into the roof, with the
>>>>> new PIS blocking the upper curve of the windows.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, bit of a shame but LU don't seem too concerned about passengers seeing
>>>> out these days.
>>>
>>> Given that the majority spend the entire trip staring at their phones,
>>> that seems fair.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I wonder which research labs were contracted to create the inevitable
>>>>> harder-than-diamond seats? Maybe the new moquette hides a bed of nails?
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't be at all surprised. Though fewer passengers will get to appreciate
>>>> the seats anyway given how many appear to have been taken out for accessability
>>>> reasons. Space for 2 (or is it 4?) wheelchairs per car seems pretty
>>>> excessive unless its only a few cars in the train.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wheelchair spaces have tip-up seats, as on buses.
>>
>> Are you sure? I couldn't see any in the video, and they're not mentioned
>> in the reports:
>>
>> "The new Central line trains will have two wheelchair bays, each able to
>> accommodate two wheelchair users. Twelve seats have been removed to create
>> the wheelchair bays. The spaces can be used for standing passengers or for
>> luggage when not required by a wheelchair user."
>>
>
> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>

No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/File:Wheelchair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 09:12 UTC

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>>
>
>No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:
>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/File:Wheelc
>hair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>

I wonder if the decision not to have tip ups was from LU or the refurbisher
(I assume its Alsthom)? Seems rather odd given going by the number of
wheelchairs I've seen on the deep level tube in recent years - 3 or 4 - the
priority spaces will almost never be used.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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 by: Recliner - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 09:23 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>>>
>>
>> No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/File:Wheelc
>> hair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>
>
> I wonder if the decision not to have tip ups was from LU or the refurbisher
> (I assume its Alsthom)?

No, as the video said, LU is handling this project in-house.

> Seems rather odd given going by the number of
> wheelchairs I've seen on the deep level tube in recent years - 3 or 4 - the
> priority spaces will almost never be used.

My guess is that it's because they've found that once the tip-up seats are
occupied by ordinary passengers, they are reluctant to give them up to
wheelchair users.

As more stations are made accessible, presumably more wheelchair users will
be seen.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
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Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 09:28:50 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 09:28 UTC

On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 09:23:42 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 GMT
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:
>>>
>>>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/File:Wheelc
>
>>> hair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>
>>
>> I wonder if the decision not to have tip ups was from LU or the refurbisher
>> (I assume its Alsthom)?
>
>No, as the video said, LU is handling this project in-house.

While I'm sure LU has some good maintenance skills I can't imagine it extends
to completely stripping out the traction system and fitting an entirely new
one following some kind of Ikea style assembly instructions from the
manufacturer. Maybe it was done on LU premises but I'd be quite a few quid it
was done by Alsthom (or whoever) employees.

>> Seems rather odd given going by the number of
>> wheelchairs I've seen on the deep level tube in recent years - 3 or 4 - the
>> priority spaces will almost never be used.
>
>My guess is that it's because they've found that once the tip-up seats are
>occupied by ordinary passengers, they are reluctant to give them up to
>wheelchair users.

Could be that.

>As more stations are made accessible, presumably more wheelchair users will
>be seen.

Quite possibly, though the DLR has been accessible since it was built and I
rarely saw a wheelchair used on that. I suspect they find dial-a-ride a lot
more convenient.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 09:46:04 GMT
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 by: Recliner - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 09:46 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 09:23:42 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 GMT
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:
>>>>
>>>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/File:Wheelc
>>
>>>> hair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>
>>>
>>> I wonder if the decision not to have tip ups was from LU or the refurbisher
>>> (I assume its Alsthom)?
>>
>> No, as the video said, LU is handling this project in-house.
>
> While I'm sure LU has some good maintenance skills I can't imagine it extends
> to completely stripping out the traction system and fitting an entirely new
> one following some kind of Ikea style assembly instructions from the
> manufacturer. Maybe it was done on LU premises but I'd be quite a few quid it
> was done by Alsthom (or whoever) employees.

Alstom Sweden is one of many sub-contractors to the project. The trains
were originally built by what was then still BREL in Derby, but the motors
and bogies came from elsewhere (as is still the case with trains built in
Derby).

https://industrialnews.co.uk/upgrading-london-undergrounds-central-line-tube-stock/

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
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Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 10:05 UTC

On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 09:46:04 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> While I'm sure LU has some good maintenance skills I can't imagine it extends
>
>> to completely stripping out the traction system and fitting an entirely new
>> one following some kind of Ikea style assembly instructions from the
>> manufacturer. Maybe it was done on LU premises but I'd be quite a few quid it
>
>> was done by Alsthom (or whoever) employees.
>
>Alstom Sweden is one of many sub-contractors to the project. The trains
>were originally built by what was then still BREL in Derby, but the motors
>and bogies came from elsewhere (as is still the case with trains built in
>Derby).
>
>https://industrialnews.co.uk/upgrading-london-undergrounds-central-line-tube-st
>ock/

Interesting article but a few raised eyebrows on my part.

"are doing far more work than was ever planned, some 160,000 km per train, per
year compared with the designed 127,000 km"

Really? How did they get that forecast so badly wrong? They must have known
what service level would be required particularly after ATO was installed.

"This involves replacing 2,720 traction motors"

I can't believe the motors were life expired after 30 years unless they were
really poorly constructed. Seems a hell of a waste and I doubt a modern DC
control package would be noticably less efficient than an AC one.

"Doors and door engines are removed for overhaul;"

Door engines maybe. Doors clearly not.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 11:12:04 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 11:12 UTC

On 18/12/2023 09:12, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>>>
>>
>> No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/File:Wheelc
>> hair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>
>
> I wonder if the decision not to have tip ups was from LU or the refurbisher
> (I assume its Alsthom)? Seems rather odd given going by the number of
> wheelchairs I've seen on the deep level tube in recent years - 3 or 4 - the
> priority spaces will almost never be used.
>

I saw a wheelchair on the Met on Friday, IRC that is the first time I
have seen one on the Underground.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: rol...@perry.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 14:41:13 +0000
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 14:41 UTC

In message <ulp9e4$3faaj$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:04 on Mon, 18 Dec
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>I saw a wheelchair on the Met on Friday, IRC that is the first time I
>have seen one on the Underground.

I've pushed one a few times via St Pancras Western Ticket Hall to
Hammersmith (and then onwards by bus).

But it's quite a strain given the route-marching involved landside at
KGX/STP to get from $random National Rail platform to $random tube
platform.

Our most recent trip to London we gave up, and drove (hence all the
angst about ULEZ, £30/day parking etc). I've yet to be informed I was
auto-billed for Congestion Charge, so eagerly awaiting a PN to
challenge.
--
Roland Perry

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
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Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 16:05:11 GMT
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 by: Recliner - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 16:05 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ulp9e4$3faaj$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:04 on Mon, 18 Dec
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> I saw a wheelchair on the Met on Friday, IRC that is the first time I
>> have seen one on the Underground.
>
> I've pushed one a few times via St Pancras Western Ticket Hall to
> Hammersmith (and then onwards by bus).
>
> But it's quite a strain given the route-marching involved landside at
> KGX/STP to get from $random National Rail platform to $random tube
> platform.
>
> Our most recent trip to London we gave up, and drove (hence all the
> angst about ULEZ, £30/day parking etc). I've yet to be informed I was
> auto-billed for Congestion Charge, so eagerly awaiting a PN to
> challenge.

The CC zone is quite small — I assume you had to visit somewhere inside it?
Otherwise, it's quite easy to avoid.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: gemeha...@btinternet.co.uk (Marland)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: 18 Dec 2023 18:07:10 GMT
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 by: Marland - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 18:07 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>>>
>>
>> No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/File:Wheelc
>> hair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>
>
> I wonder if the decision not to have tip ups was from LU or the refurbisher
> (I assume its Alsthom)? Seems rather odd given going by the number of
> wheelchairs I've seen on the deep level tube in recent years - 3 or 4 - the
> priority spaces will almost never be used.
>
>
On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board cyclists will
occupy them ,some will not move for other users the spaces are aimed at.

GH

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: rol...@perry.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 18:56:56 +0000
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 18:56 UTC

In message <X4_fN.49263$Sl64.34923@fx09.ams1>, at 16:05:11 on Mon, 18
Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ulp9e4$3faaj$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:04 on Mon, 18 Dec
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> I saw a wheelchair on the Met on Friday, IRC that is the first time I
>>> have seen one on the Underground.
>>
>> I've pushed one a few times via St Pancras Western Ticket Hall to
>> Hammersmith (and then onwards by bus).
>>
>> But it's quite a strain given the route-marching involved landside at
>> KGX/STP to get from $random National Rail platform to $random tube
>> platform.
>>
>> Our most recent trip to London we gave up, and drove (hence all the
>> angst about ULEZ, £30/day parking etc). I've yet to be informed I was
>> auto-billed for Congestion Charge, so eagerly awaiting a PN to
>> challenge.
>
>The CC zone is quite small — I assume you had to visit somewhere inside it?
> Otherwise, it's quite easy to avoid.

I wouldn't have mentioned it unless it was unavoidable. Didn't I post a
photo of my car parked at Waterloo Station, well inside the area, and a
few minutes walk from my hotel, which has no parking at all (apart from
a 20-minute blue badge compound in the basement you might fit perhaps
six vehicles into, but you need to get someone to unlock the gate, which
they were very happy to do, but it's all a bit of a faff; and then you
need someone with a staff pass to unlock the lift to get into the hotel
itself).
--
Roland Perry

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: rol...@perry.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 19:05:49 +0000
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 19:05 UTC

In message <kubg2eFnsoiU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:07:10 on Mon, 18
Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 GMT
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:
>>>
>>>
>>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/Fi
>>>le:Wheelc
>>> hair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>
>>
>> I wonder if the decision not to have tip ups was from LU or the refurbisher
>> (I assume its Alsthom)? Seems rather odd given going by the number of
>> wheelchairs I've seen on the deep level tube in recent years - 3 or 4 - the
>> priority spaces will almost never be used.
>>
>On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board cyclists will
>occupy them ,some will not move for other users the spaces are aimed at.

Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
apparatus unceremoniously ejected.
--
Roland Perry

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 20:43:28 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Mon, 18 Dec 2023 20:43 UTC

On 18/12/2023 19:05, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <kubg2eFnsoiU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:07:10 on Mon, 18
> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 GMT
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/Fi
>>>> le:Wheelc
>>>> hair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>
>>>
>>> I wonder if the decision not to have tip ups was from LU or the
>>> refurbisher
>>> (I assume its Alsthom)? Seems rather odd given going by the number of
>>> wheelchairs I've seen on the deep level tube in recent years - 3 or 4
>>> - the
>>> priority spaces will almost never be used.
>>>
>> On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board  cyclists
>> will
>> occupy them ,some will not move for other users the spaces are aimed at.
>
> Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
> take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
> apparatus unceremoniously ejected.

Good for you!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2023 09:31:29 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 19 Dec 2023 09:31 UTC

On 18 Dec 2023 18:07:10 GMT
Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 GMT
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:
>>>
>>>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/File:Wheelc
>
>>> hair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>
>>
>> I wonder if the decision not to have tip ups was from LU or the refurbisher
>> (I assume its Alsthom)? Seems rather odd given going by the number of
>> wheelchairs I've seen on the deep level tube in recent years - 3 or 4 - the
>> priority spaces will almost never be used.
>>
>>
>On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board cyclists will
>occupy them ,some will not move for other users the spaces are aimed at.

And will position their filthy greasy bikes so anyone walking past gets a
nice smear of crap on their clothes.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2023 09:36:25 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 19 Dec 2023 09:36 UTC

On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 19:05:49 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <kubg2eFnsoiU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:07:10 on Mon, 18
>Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 GMT
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Sorry I assumed they were the same as the Met stock.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, they're quite different, and definitely no tip-up seats:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1992_Stock#/media/Fi
>>>>le:Wheelc
>>>> hair_area_-_CLIP_first_run_2023-11-24_-_74.jpg>
>>>
>>> I wonder if the decision not to have tip ups was from LU or the refurbisher
>>> (I assume its Alsthom)? Seems rather odd given going by the number of
>>> wheelchairs I've seen on the deep level tube in recent years - 3 or 4 - the
>>> priority spaces will almost never be used.
>>>
>>On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board cyclists will
>>occupy them ,some will not move for other users the spaces are aimed at.
>
>Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
>take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
>apparatus unceremoniously ejected.

I'd be careful. Some of these guys (and the occasional woman) have a
stratospheric level of entitlement and a few also seem to think cyling makes
them mike tyson. I've exchanged words with quite a few riding fast on the
pavement or through red lights when I was trying to cross. Luckily I'm a
fairly big guy so they just resort to the finger or abuse before pedalling
off but I reckon a few of them would have started trouble with someone
smaller.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Message-ID: <1216oip5oq6cb41b2b6vj940ulf8kl1stq@4ax.com>
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 15:12:57 +0000
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 by: Recliner - Wed, 20 Dec 2023 15:12 UTC

On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 10:05:59 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 09:46:04 GMT
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> While I'm sure LU has some good maintenance skills I can't imagine it extends
>>
>>> to completely stripping out the traction system and fitting an entirely new
>>> one following some kind of Ikea style assembly instructions from the
>>> manufacturer. Maybe it was done on LU premises but I'd be quite a few quid it
>>
>>> was done by Alsthom (or whoever) employees.
>>
>>Alstom Sweden is one of many sub-contractors to the project. The trains
>>were originally built by what was then still BREL in Derby, but the motors
>>and bogies came from elsewhere (as is still the case with trains built in
>>Derby).
>>
>>https://industrialnews.co.uk/upgrading-london-undergrounds-central-line-tube-st
>>ock/
>
>Interesting article but a few raised eyebrows on my part.
>
>"are doing far more work than was ever planned, some 160,000 km per train, per
>year compared with the designed 127,000 km"
>
>Really? How did they get that forecast so badly wrong? They must have known
>what service level would be required particularly after ATO was installed.
>
>"This involves replacing 2,720 traction motors"
>
>I can't believe the motors were life expired after 30 years unless they were
>really poorly constructed. Seems a hell of a waste and I doubt a modern DC
>control package would be noticably less efficient than an AC one.
>
>"Doors and door engines are removed for overhaul;"
>
>Door engines maybe. Doors clearly not.

The doors had definitely been removed, but it looks like some unrefurbished doors had been refitted to the train Geoff
travelled on.

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: rol...@perry.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 19:52:43 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 20 Dec 2023 19:52 UTC

In message <ulqatg$3lo6h$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:43:28 on Mon, 18 Dec
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>>> On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board 
>>>cyclists will occupy them ,some will not move for other users the
>>>spaces are aimed at.

>> Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
>>take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
>>apparatus unceremoniously ejected.
>
>Good for you!

Last week we were at an attraction in Central London whose lifts were
clearly marked "Only for people who cannot use the stairs". But
apparently there are hordes of people who can't read, either.

They are very likely the same people who forgot to order the optional
extra direction indicators for their new Audi.
--
Roland Perry

Re: 1992 stock refurb

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From: rol...@perry.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: 1992 stock refurb
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 20:21:44 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 20 Dec 2023 20:21 UTC

In message <ulro6p$3vu55$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:36:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>>On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board cyclists will
>>>occupy them ,some will not move for other users the spaces are aimed at.
>>
>>Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
>>take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
>>apparatus unceremoniously ejected.
>
>I'd be careful. Some of these guys (and the occasional woman) have a
>stratospheric level of entitlement and a few also seem to think cyling makes
>them mike tyson. I've exchanged words with quite a few riding fast on the
>pavement or through red lights when I was trying to cross. Luckily I'm a
>fairly big guy so they just resort to the finger or abuse before pedalling
>off but I reckon a few of them would have started trouble with someone
>smaller.

They need to be careful, because I've got the local police control room
on speed-dial on my phone, am on good terms with the staff there, and if
they lay a finger on me they *will* end up in jail.
--
Roland Perry


aus+uk / uk.transport.london / 1992 stock refurb

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