From other posts, I am looking at alternatives to VM cable as the VM costs
are going ever higher.
I am out of contract at the moment so it seems a good time to switch.

The on line Broadband Checker systems give various speeds to my house,
mainly around 30-50 Mbps.

I don't trust these (from previous experience) so I rang up Zen to see
what they could tell me.
Zen sales couldn't get any information from Open Reach about my property,
but could apparently get suggested speeds from the properties either side.

I then set off down a different route - looking at SIPP providers.
Andrews & Arnold were an obvious choice.
Whilst there I had a look at their Broadband offerings and the web site
reported that they were unable to get any details for my address (which
seems more accurate given my talk to Zen sales).

This could be because I ported my BT number to Virgin when we moved in,
and we have now been on Virgin for over 15 years.

However it does seem a bit strange.

Has anyone else encountered this?

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

On Fri 05/04/2024 14:02, David wrote:
> From other posts, I am looking at alternatives to VM cable as the VM costs
> are going ever higher.
> I am out of contract at the moment so it seems a good time to switch.
>
> The on line Broadband Checker systems give various speeds to my house,
> mainly around 30-50 Mbps.
>
> I don't trust these (from previous experience) so I rang up Zen to see
> what they could tell me.
> Zen sales couldn't get any information from Open Reach about my property,
> but could apparently get suggested speeds from the properties either side.
>
> I then set off down a different route - looking at SIPP providers.
> Andrews & Arnold were an obvious choice.
> Whilst there I had a look at their Broadband offerings and the web site
> reported that they were unable to get any details for my address (which
> seems more accurate given my talk to Zen sales).
>
> This could be because I ported my BT number to Virgin when we moved in,
> and we have now been on Virgin for over 15 years.
>
> However it does seem a bit strange.
>
> Has anyone else encountered this?
>

If you port your number from BT to anywhere - TT, Sky, etc etc - it
immediately becomes invisible to BT.
VM is an entirely independent system so there would never be any way an
outside party (such as BTOR) could access it.

David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
> From other posts, I am looking at alternatives to VM cable as the VM costs
> are going ever higher.
> I am out of contract at the moment so it seems a good time to switch.
>
> The on line Broadband Checker systems give various speeds to my house,
> mainly around 30-50 Mbps.
>
> I don't trust these (from previous experience) so I rang up Zen to see
> what they could tell me.
> Zen sales couldn't get any information from Open Reach about my property,
> but could apparently get suggested speeds from the properties either side.

Try this one:
https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/AddressHome

Just put in your postcode, no other details.
Up will come a list of Openreach lines at that postcode.
If your address shows up then you have an Openreach connection still
present, even if inactive.

If the line isn't active then the speeds it'll show are hypothetical, but
you may well get a higher speed than those shown (ie they are quite
conservative). They won't actually know until the connection is live.

If searching on your neighbours has more speed data then it's likely your
experience will be similar.

> This could be because I ported my BT number to Virgin when we moved in,
> and we have now been on Virgin for over 15 years.

The number is a red herring, since numbers aren't attached to copper lines
any more - and even if they did your number long left Openreach so it has no
longer any association with your line. That's why you need to search by
address.

On some existing lines you can get more detailed speed information by
searching a phone number, but that may not work if the number has been moved
to Digital Voice. For an ADSL number I just tried on the checker I got:

Observed Speeds ADSL
Max Observed Downstream Speed 8.06
Max Observed Upstream Speed 0.45
Observed Date 2024-03-18

but for one on BT Digital Voice I got:

"There is no data available. This may be because it is not a BT line or it
is a number which has been moved to an IP Voice service. We advise using
the address to check availability instead."

When you order, your ISP will give you a minimum speed guarantee. This is
the figure below which you can cancel the contract - this is likely to be
quite low. It is likely you'll get a better speed than that, but how much
will depend on your situation.

If Openreach has no record of your address at all, it's likely they will
need to install a new line - ie reconnect you to their network. Probably
they can reuse the old wires you already have and it just means reattaching
them at the cabinet. In rare cases the cabinet is full and that's a
roadblock, but otherwise you just have to pay the 'new connection' fee
(which the ISP may or may not subsidise).

Theo

On 05/04/2024 at 14:02, David wrote:
> From other posts, I am looking at alternatives to VM cable as the VM costs
> are going ever higher.
> I am out of contract at the moment so it seems a good time to switch.
>
> The on line Broadband Checker systems give various speeds to my house,
> mainly around 30-50 Mbps.
>
> I don't trust these (from previous experience) so I rang up Zen to see
> what they could tell me.
> Zen sales couldn't get any information from Open Reach about my property,
> but could apparently get suggested speeds from the properties either side.
>
> I then set off down a different route - looking at SIPP providers.
> Andrews & Arnold were an obvious choice.
> Whilst there I had a look at their Broadband offerings and the web site
> reported that they were unable to get any details for my address (which
> seems more accurate given my talk to Zen sales).
>
> This could be because I ported my BT number to Virgin when we moved in,
> and we have now been on Virgin for over 15 years.
>
> However it does seem a bit strange.
>
> Has anyone else encountered this?
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> Dave R
>

Would something like Three 5G (or 4G) wireless broadband work in your
location?

--
Wilf

On 05/04/2024 18:18, Wilf wrote:
> On 05/04/2024 at 14:02, David wrote:
>>  From other posts, I am looking at alternatives to VM cable as the VM
>> costs
>> are going ever higher.
>> I am out of contract at the moment so it seems a good time to switch.
>>
>> The on line Broadband Checker systems give various speeds to my house,
>> mainly around 30-50 Mbps.
>>
>> I don't trust these (from previous experience) so I rang up Zen to see
>> what they could tell me.
>> Zen sales couldn't get any information from Open Reach about my property,
>> but could apparently get suggested speeds from the properties either
>> side.
>>
>> I then set off down a different route - looking at SIPP providers.
>> Andrews & Arnold were an obvious choice.
>> Whilst there I had a look at their Broadband offerings and the web site
>> reported that they were unable to get any details for my address (which
>> seems more accurate given my talk to Zen sales).
>>
>> This could be because I ported my BT number to Virgin when we moved in,
>> and we have now been on Virgin for over 15 years.
>>
>> However it does seem a bit strange.

Well ADSL broadband speeds depend on line length to the Exchange and you
have no line so they can't get an accurate estimate. If there are no
spare pairs from your nearest street cabinet they may have to patch you
in to one that is some distance from your house, and the cables to the
exchange from that may then take a very different route to your nearest
cab, giving different speeds...

>>
>> Has anyone else encountered this?
>>

No but it doesn't surprise me as per the above.

>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave R
>>

Dave.

>
> Would something like Three 5G (or 4G) wireless broadband work in your
> location?
>

On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:28:34 +0100, Theo wrote:

> David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> From other posts, I am looking at alternatives to VM cable as the VM
>> costs are going ever higher.
>> I am out of contract at the moment so it seems a good time to switch.
>>
>> The on line Broadband Checker systems give various speeds to my house,
>> mainly around 30-50 Mbps.
>>
>> I don't trust these (from previous experience) so I rang up Zen to see
>> what they could tell me.
>> Zen sales couldn't get any information from Open Reach about my
>> property, but could apparently get suggested speeds from the properties
>> either side.
>
> Try this one:
> https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/AddressHome
>
> Just put in your postcode, no other details.
> Up will come a list of Openreach lines at that postcode.
> If your address shows up then you have an Openreach connection still
> present, even if inactive.
>
> If the line isn't active then the speeds it'll show are hypothetical,
> but you may well get a higher speed than those shown (ie they are quite
> conservative). They won't actually know until the connection is live.
>
> If searching on your neighbours has more speed data then it's likely
> your experience will be similar.
>
>> This could be because I ported my BT number to Virgin when we moved in,
>> and we have now been on Virgin for over 15 years.
>
> The number is a red herring, since numbers aren't attached to copper
> lines any more - and even if they did your number long left Openreach so
> it has no longer any association with your line. That's why you need to
> search by address.
>
> On some existing lines you can get more detailed speed information by
> searching a phone number, but that may not work if the number has been
> moved to Digital Voice. For an ADSL number I just tried on the checker
> I got:
>
> Observed Speeds ADSL Max Observed Downstream Speed 8.06 Max
Observed
> Upstream Speed 0.45 Observed Date 2024-03-18
>
> but for one on BT Digital Voice I got:
>
> "There is no data available. This may be because it is not a BT line or
> it is a number which has been moved to an IP Voice service. We advise
> using the address to check availability instead."
>
>
> When you order, your ISP will give you a minimum speed guarantee. This
> is the figure below which you can cancel the contract - this is likely
> to be quite low. It is likely you'll get a better speed than that, but
> how much will depend on your situation.
>
> If Openreach has no record of your address at all, it's likely they will
> need to install a new line - ie reconnect you to their network.
> Probably they can reuse the old wires you already have and it just means
> reattaching them at the cabinet. In rare cases the cabinet is full and
> that's a roadblock, but otherwise you just have to pay the 'new
> connection' fee (which the ISP may or may not subsidise).

I and Zen searched by physical address, not phone number.
Zen sales did several searches on systems available to them whilst I was
on the phone to them.

I also put my post code and house number into the A&A search which could
find no details.

I may try searching by phone number but I doubt it will make a difference.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 18:18:01 +0100, Wilf wrote:

> On 05/04/2024 at 14:02, David wrote:
>> From other posts, I am looking at alternatives to VM cable as the VM
>> costs
>> are going ever higher.
>> I am out of contract at the moment so it seems a good time to switch.
>>
>> The on line Broadband Checker systems give various speeds to my house,
>> mainly around 30-50 Mbps.
>>
>> I don't trust these (from previous experience) so I rang up Zen to see
>> what they could tell me.
>> Zen sales couldn't get any information from Open Reach about my
>> property, but could apparently get suggested speeds from the properties
>> either side.
>>
>> I then set off down a different route - looking at SIPP providers.
>> Andrews & Arnold were an obvious choice.
>> Whilst there I had a look at their Broadband offerings and the web site
>> reported that they were unable to get any details for my address (which
>> seems more accurate given my talk to Zen sales).
>>
>> This could be because I ported my BT number to Virgin when we moved in,
>> and we have now been on Virgin for over 15 years.
>>
>> However it does seem a bit strange.
>>
>> Has anyone else encountered this?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave R
>>
>>
> Would something like Three 5G (or 4G) wireless broadband work in your
> location?

I haven't explored that option, as I'm still working on fixed connections.

Physical wires are still connected to the house but it is being suggested
that they no longer have a connection to the local cabinet which is why
they don't show up on the Open Reach system.

Open Reach resellers, including BT, seem quite happy to offer me similar
speeds, but I am suspicious of their automated systems.
It seems that they may just guess from the general area if there is no
specific record for the house.

As suggested elsewhere, the offered speeds may not be possible if the
local cabinet is full.
This would not be a good thing if I had ceased my VM service and then
couldn't get the basic service I need.

I think I need to talk to A&A and see what they suggest.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
> I haven't explored that option, as I'm still working on fixed connections.
>
> Physical wires are still connected to the house but it is being suggested
> that they no longer have a connection to the local cabinet which is why
> they don't show up on the Open Reach system.
>
> Open Reach resellers, including BT, seem quite happy to offer me similar
> speeds, but I am suspicious of their automated systems.
> It seems that they may just guess from the general area if there is no
> specific record for the house.
>
> As suggested elsewhere, the offered speeds may not be possible if the
> local cabinet is full.
> This would not be a good thing if I had ceased my VM service and then
> couldn't get the basic service I need.
>
> I think I need to talk to A&A and see what they suggest.

If you have no line physically present, then all you can do is order one.
Assuming no showstoppers (which are relatively rare) all Openreach can come
out, assess what they have to do to install one, and install it. It is
likely they can reuse some of what's already there, ie it won't be a
full dig up the garden job, just reconnecting you.

Only the you'll know the speeds available, but going by the speeds of your
neighbours is a good guess. It is possible the 'checkers' are overly
pessimistic if they have nothing else to go on. If the cabinet is full your
connection will just be refused - you won't get a lower speed.

Aside from this, I don't suppose there's any FTTP on your horizon?
https://bidb.uk/
is a map which shows which networks are live or doing roadworks near you,
which could be a clue as to who might be installing soon. I only mention it
because if you do have to dig up the garden it would be less painful to do
that once (for FTTP) rather than twice.

Theo

David wrote:

[snip]

>
> I think I need to talk to A&A and see what they suggest.

Place an order and see what happens.

I did this a long while back and the Openreach technician turned up to
install the wires - then said he could not complete the work because
there were no spare pairs from my local pole to the exchange.

I suggested he call his line manager to resolve it - but the line
manager was on holiday.

So the technician marked the job as "incomplete" and sent it back to
planning. After several weeks they found two victims to share a single
coper pair using DACS, so they could provide me with an unencumbered
copper pair which I could for ADSL.

All this because Openreach withdrew "Home Highway".

---

A client had a similar problem. Took over an empty building,
redecorated, found some dead phone wires and cut them off to make
everything look tidy.

Then tried to order a phone service.

In due course BT said the service was live and started billing for it.

So my client had to report a fault. Repair technician arrived,
discovered complete lack of a copper pair into the building so had to
bring in a new pair.

I doubt that BT / Openreach are any better now!

--
Graham J

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > As suggested elsewhere, the offered speeds may not be possible if the
> > local cabinet is full.
> > This would not be a good thing if I had ceased my VM service and then
> > couldn't get the basic service I need.
> >
> > I think I need to talk to A&A and see what they suggest.
>
> If you have no line physically present, then all you can do is order one.
> Assuming no showstoppers (which are relatively rare) all Openreach can come
> out, assess what they have to do to install one, and install it. It is
> likely they can reuse some of what's already there, ie it won't be a
> full dig up the garden job, just reconnecting you.
>
> Only the you'll know the speeds available, but going by the speeds of your
> neighbours is a good guess. It is possible the 'checkers' are overly
> pessimistic if they have nothing else to go on. If the cabinet is full your
> connection will just be refused - you won't get a lower speed.

Also, don't cease your VM service. Get the new one installed and working
first. You'll pay for a month or so of overlap, but it avoids problems like
Openreach moving the install date because somebody is off sick or whatever.
If you want to migrate your phone number to the new ISP, ask them if you can
do that after installation and how the process works for a VM number (the
new ISP 'pulls' the number from their end, but I don't know if that
automatically cancels the VM account as it does with OR).

This is the same process ordering from any Openreach ISP - there's no
advantage going for one over another. The ISP just fills in an Openreach
form that says 'order new customer connection' and Openreach do the work -
there are no special powers that one ISP has over another. A&A are better
at kicking OR when they say dumb things, but the actual install process is
no different.

Theo

On 06/04/2024 11:39, David wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 18:18:01 +0100, Wilf wrote:
>
>> On 05/04/2024 at 14:02, David wrote:
>>> From other posts, I am looking at alternatives to VM cable as the VM
>>> costs
>>> are going ever higher.
>>> I am out of contract at the moment so it seems a good time to switch.
>>>
>>> The on line Broadband Checker systems give various speeds to my house,
>>> mainly around 30-50 Mbps.
>>>
>>> I don't trust these (from previous experience) so I rang up Zen to see
>>> what they could tell me.
>>> Zen sales couldn't get any information from Open Reach about my
>>> property, but could apparently get suggested speeds from the properties
>>> either side.
>>>
>>> I then set off down a different route - looking at SIPP providers.
>>> Andrews & Arnold were an obvious choice.
>>> Whilst there I had a look at their Broadband offerings and the web site
>>> reported that they were unable to get any details for my address (which
>>> seems more accurate given my talk to Zen sales).
>>>
>>> This could be because I ported my BT number to Virgin when we moved in,
>>> and we have now been on Virgin for over 15 years.
>>>
>>> However it does seem a bit strange.
>>>
>>> Has anyone else encountered this?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave R
>>>
>>>
>> Would something like Three 5G (or 4G) wireless broadband work in your
>> location?
>
> I haven't explored that option, as I'm still working on fixed connections.
>
> Physical wires are still connected to the house but it is being suggested
> that they no longer have a connection to the local cabinet which is why
> they don't show up on the Open Reach system.
>

They may still be connected.

> Open Reach resellers, including BT, seem quite happy to offer me similar
> speeds, but I am suspicious of their automated systems.
> It seems that they may just guess from the general area if there is no
> specific record for the house.
>

Thats all they can do.

> As suggested elsewhere, the offered speeds may not be possible if the
> local cabinet is full.
> This would not be a good thing if I had ceased my VM service and then
> couldn't get the basic service I need.
>

Then don't cease the service. You can migrate the phone number later.

> I think I need to talk to A&A and see what they suggest.
>

They are probably the most competent.

Dave

> Cheers
>
>
>
> Dave R
>
>
>

On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 13:07:53 +0100, Theo wrote:

> David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> I haven't explored that option, as I'm still working on fixed
>> connections.
>>
>> Physical wires are still connected to the house but it is being
>> suggested that they no longer have a connection to the local cabinet
>> which is why they don't show up on the Open Reach system.
>>
>> Open Reach resellers, including BT, seem quite happy to offer me
>> similar speeds, but I am suspicious of their automated systems.
>> It seems that they may just guess from the general area if there is no
>> specific record for the house.
>>
>> As suggested elsewhere, the offered speeds may not be possible if the
>> local cabinet is full.
>> This would not be a good thing if I had ceased my VM service and then
>> couldn't get the basic service I need.
>>
>> I think I need to talk to A&A and see what they suggest.
>
> If you have no line physically present, then all you can do is order
> one. Assuming no showstoppers (which are relatively rare) all Openreach
> can come out, assess what they have to do to install one, and install
> it. It is likely they can reuse some of what's already there, ie it
> won't be a full dig up the garden job, just reconnecting you.
>
> Only the you'll know the speeds available, but going by the speeds of
> your neighbours is a good guess. It is possible the 'checkers' are
> overly pessimistic if they have nothing else to go on. If the cabinet
> is full your connection will just be refused - you won't get a lower
> speed.
>
>
> Aside from this, I don't suppose there's any FTTP on your horizon?
> https://bidb.uk/
> is a map which shows which networks are live or doing roadworks near
> you, which could be a clue as to who might be installing soon. I only
> mention it because if you do have to dig up the garden it would be less
> painful to do that once (for FTTP) rather than twice.
>
> Theo

Thanks for the map - interesting!
It seems to show that isolated parts of a few streets are live with FTTP
but not the majority of the town.

There would be no digging up as service is provided by telegraph poles.
The local pole already has fibre terminations, and one is in use for a
business customer, but no service is being currently offered to domestic
customers.

There is an overhead wire from the pole to the house which was used by the
previous occupants, but that service was ceased when we moved in over 16
years ago.

This is why I am tentatively assuming that the wiring is all there but not
connected in the cabinet.

I am now wondering when FTTC was installed.
If that was after we moved in then there is no knowing how far the wires
go after they reach the local pole.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

Theo wrote:

[snip]

> If you want to migrate your phone number to the new ISP,

Probably best not to. Port it instead to a VoIP provider, so that when
Openreach discontinue POTS at the end of 2025 you will be ahead of the game.

[snip]

--
Graham J

On 06 Apr 2024 13:07:53 +0100 (BST)
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Aside from this, I don't suppose there's any FTTP on your horizon?
> https://bidb.uk/
> is a map which shows which networks are live or doing roadworks near
> you, which could be a clue as to who might be installing soon. I
> only mention it because if you do have to dig up the garden it would
> be less painful to do that once (for FTTP) rather than twice.
>
> Theo

I just tried that site for my Suffolk Postcode, and it only lists
Openreach and a company I have never heard of called ITSwisp as being
available. ITSwisp's website says they are a Norfolk organisation, not
Suffolk. I must assume that the Openreach designation leads to
different ISPs? I know I can get Zen, but there is no mention of them.
Cuckoo is mentioned, whoever they are. The name does not sound
appropriate! It is interesting that County Broadband, or whatever they
were called, who blitzed the area a few years ago, are not mentioned
anywhere.

--
Davey.

Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 06 Apr 2024 13:07:53 +0100 (BST)
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > Aside from this, I don't suppose there's any FTTP on your horizon?
> > https://bidb.uk/
> > is a map which shows which networks are live or doing roadworks near
> > you, which could be a clue as to who might be installing soon. I
> > only mention it because if you do have to dig up the garden it would
> > be less painful to do that once (for FTTP) rather than twice.
> >
> > Theo
>
> I just tried that site for my Suffolk Postcode, and it only lists
> Openreach and a company I have never heard of called ITSwisp as being
> available. ITSwisp's website says they are a Norfolk organisation, not
> Suffolk. I must assume that the Openreach designation leads to
> different ISPs? I know I can get Zen, but there is no mention of them.
> Cuckoo is mentioned, whoever they are. The name does not sound
> appropriate! It is interesting that County Broadband, or whatever they
> were called, who blitzed the area a few years ago, are not mentioned
> anywhere.

That map is of physical infrastructure. Many ISPs like Zen don't have their
own physical infrastructure, they operate over infrastructure provided by
others (Openreach and Cityfibre in the case of Zen).

ITSwisp is a wireless ISP, so perhaps you are in range of one of their
transmitter sites. Being wireless the bandwidth is much lower than FTTP and
even good FTTC, so you probably wouldn't choose them unless you were stuck
on the end of a very long line that could only do ADSL.

Cuckoo are an FTTP provider:
https://www.cuckoo.co/broadband
You can check on their site if that is available to you. It appears they
don't wholesale, so you buy broadband directly from them rather than from
somebody who rents their infrastructure like Zen.

According to this:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2024/02/broadband-isp-cuckoo-launch-new-uk-cityfibre-plans-drop-openreach.html
Cuckoo is the retail arm of Fern Trading/Octopus Investments' FTTP installs,
branded as Jurassic Fibre, Swish Fibre, Giganet and AllPoints Fibre.
So it's possible you have one of those FTTP networks locally and Cuckoo is
the site you order from.

It seems like Cuckoo will also use Cityfibre infrastructure as well as the
above FTTP networks, but presumably if you had that it would show on the
map.

Theo

On 21 Apr 2024 12:02:29 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:
> ITSwisp is a wireless ISP, so perhaps you are in range of one of their
> transmitter sites. Being wireless the bandwidth is much lower than FTTP
> and even good FTTC, so you probably wouldn't choose them unless you were
> stuck on the end of a very long line that could only do ADSL.

That's not necessarily the case. Our local operator, Cromarty Firth
Wireless, has just announced an upgrade to gigabit service - so it's
certainly possible for a wireless operator to deliver speeds in the same
ballpark as FTTP.

Mike

Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
> On 21 Apr 2024 12:02:29 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:
> > ITSwisp is a wireless ISP, so perhaps you are in range of one of their
> > transmitter sites. Being wireless the bandwidth is much lower than FTTP
> > and even good FTTC, so you probably wouldn't choose them unless you were
> > stuck on the end of a very long line that could only do ADSL.
>
> That's not necessarily the case. Our local operator, Cromarty Firth
> Wireless, has just announced an upgrade to gigabit service - so it's
> certainly possible for a wireless operator to deliver speeds in the same
> ballpark as FTTP.

The highest package ITSwisp offers is 30Mbps down / 2.5Mbps up, so it is the
case here:
https://www.itswisp.co.uk/residential-packages/

(You can quite possibly get better with 4G, so I can't see it being useful
for many)

Theo