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aus+uk / uk.transport.london / Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

SubjectAuthor
* Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireGraeme Wall
+* Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireMuttley
|`* Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireRecliner
| `* Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireMuttley
|  `- Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireRecliner
`* Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireRecliner
 +* Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireMuttley
 |`* Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireBlueshirt
 | `* Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireMuttley
 |  `- Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireBlueshirt
 `* Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireTheo
  +- Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireMuttley
  `- Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fireRecliner

1
Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

<unudk3$b08$2@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 16:26:43 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Sat, 13 Jan 2024 16:26 UTC

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67967421>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

<unue5p$fdp$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 16:36:10 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sat, 13 Jan 2024 16:36 UTC

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 16:26:43 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67967421>

Not the first time, probably won't be the last:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/transport-for-london-tfl-buses-fire-ta
ken-out-service-b1001775.html

It would seem that safe lithium battery charging is still a work in progress.
I suppose buses are more vulnerable to overheating during charging than cars
simply because of the much larger number of cells they contain so greater
probability of one going pop.

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

<D_NoN.1411$oJCf.1152@fx11.ams1>

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Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
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Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 09:40:51 GMT
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 by: Recliner - Sun, 14 Jan 2024 09:40 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 16:26:43 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67967421>
>
> Not the first time, probably won't be the last:
>
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/transport-for-london-tfl-buses-fire-ta
> ken-out-service-b1001775.html
>
> It would seem that safe lithium battery charging is still a work in progress.
> I suppose buses are more vulnerable to overheating during charging than cars
> simply because of the much larger number of cells they contain so greater
> probability of one going pop.
>

The fire happened while the bus was in service, not on charge, so it might
have some other cause. But the fire was very fierce and long-lasting, so I
wonder if the evidence of the cause (eg, a wiring fault) was destroyed?

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

<uo111l$gn0u$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 16:10:29 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sun, 14 Jan 2024 16:10 UTC

On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 09:40:51 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 16:26:43 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67967421>
>>
>> Not the first time, probably won't be the last:
>>
>>
>https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/transport-for-london-tfl-buses-fire-t
>a
>> ken-out-service-b1001775.html
>>
>> It would seem that safe lithium battery charging is still a work in progress.
>
>> I suppose buses are more vulnerable to overheating during charging than cars
>> simply because of the much larger number of cells they contain so greater
>> probability of one going pop.
>>
>
>The fire happened while the bus was in service, not on charge, so it might
>have some other cause. But the fire was very fierce and long-lasting, so I
>wonder if the evidence of the cause (eg, a wiring fault) was destroyed?

Looking at the flame thrower coming out of the back I wouldn't be surprised.
When these things go they really go. I wonder if the solid state batteries
that are said to be coming out in the next few years be more stable...

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

<iadaqi15eq2md065gqq5ehkfjk88ric5nh@4ax.com>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
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 by: Recliner - Mon, 15 Jan 2024 13:38 UTC

On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 16:10:29 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 09:40:51 GMT
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 16:26:43 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67967421>
>>>
>>> Not the first time, probably won't be the last:
>>>
>>>
>>https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/transport-for-london-tfl-buses-fire-t
>>a
>>> ken-out-service-b1001775.html
>>>
>>> It would seem that safe lithium battery charging is still a work in progress.
>>
>>> I suppose buses are more vulnerable to overheating during charging than cars
>>> simply because of the much larger number of cells they contain so greater
>>> probability of one going pop.
>>>
>>
>>The fire happened while the bus was in service, not on charge, so it might
>>have some other cause. But the fire was very fierce and long-lasting, so I
>>wonder if the evidence of the cause (eg, a wiring fault) was destroyed?
>
>Looking at the flame thrower coming out of the back I wouldn't be surprised.
>When these things go they really go. I wonder if the solid state batteries
>that are said to be coming out in the next few years be more stable...

Yes, they are claimed to be much less flammable.

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

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Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:09:43 GMT
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:09 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67967421>

And, another one:

<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/25/electric-bus-flames-fire-putney-go-ahead-london-garage/>

An electric bus has burst into flames in London, just weeks after another
from the same fleet was engulfed, sparking panic among commuters.

Footage posted on social media shows a vehicle on fire inside a bus garage
in Putney on Wednesday.

One wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter: “Another London bus on fire,
this time inside a bus garage … What the hell is going on with our buses.”

Staff were reportedly evacuated as fire crews attempted to get the fire
under control.

The bus was operated by Go Ahead London, which has begun an investigation
into the incident.

It said a safety check of its 380-strong London bus fleet would be carried
out as a precaution.

The fire comes after an electric double-decker bus caught fire in
south-west London on Jan 11 during rush hour.

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:57:15 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:57 UTC

On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:09:43 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67967421>
>
>And, another one:
>
><https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/25/electric-bus-flames-fire-putney-go
>-ahead-london-garage/>
>
>An electric bus has burst into flames in London, just weeks after another
>from the same fleet was engulfed, sparking panic among commuters.
>
>Footage posted on social media shows a vehicle on fire inside a bus garage
>in Putney on Wednesday.
>
>One wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter: “Another London bus on fire,
>this time inside a bus garage … What the hell is going on with our buses.”

What is going on I suspect is that the batteries are being pushed to their
limits with charging speed and number of cycles. Quite possibly BYD who make
these bus chassis have not been 100% honest about their abilities.

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

<xn0oh91dv2uzfhv000@news.eternal-september.org>

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From: bluesh...@indigo.news (Blueshirt)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:02:19 +0000
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 by: Blueshirt - Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:02 UTC

Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:09:43 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > One wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter: “Another London bus on
> > fire, this time inside a bus garage … What the hell is going on
> > with our buses.”
>
> What is going on I suspect is that the batteries are being pushed
> to their limits with charging speed and number of cycles. Quite
> possibly BYD who make these bus chassis have not been 100% honest
> about their abilities.

The latter is a distinct possibility.

I'm glad I have fallen for the hype and invested in an electric
car...

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:13:53 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:13 UTC

On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:02:19 +0000
"Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:09:43 GMT
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > One wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter: “Another London bus on
>> > fire, this time inside a bus garage … What the hell is going on
>> > with our buses.”
>>
>> What is going on I suspect is that the batteries are being pushed
>> to their limits with charging speed and number of cycles. Quite
>> possibly BYD who make these bus chassis have not been 100% honest
>> about their abilities.
>
>The latter is a distinct possibility.

Its a shame euro bus manufacturers decided to sit on their arses and do
nothing about electric buses while the chinese gobbled up the market. Where
the hell were Volvo and Scania while this was happening?

>I'm glad I have fallen for the hype and invested in an electric
>car...

I assume you meant "haven't" :)

I wouldn't touch an electric car with a bargepole until the hopeless charger
situation is sorted out though I won't hold my breath. This petrol station I
occasionally drive past was rebuilt last year. How many chargers did they
install? Zero.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/GAzwYRqLXjzwkWgd9

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

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Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 17:19:39 +0000
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 by: Blueshirt - Thu, 25 Jan 2024 17:19 UTC

Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:02:19 +0000
> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>
> > I'm glad I have fallen for the hype and invested in an electric
> > car...
>
> I assume you meant "haven't" :)

Yes!!! :-)

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

<6UE*cZoBz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
Date: 26 Jan 2024 13:26:34 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Message-ID: <6UE*cZoBz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
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 by: Theo - Fri, 26 Jan 2024 13:26 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67967421>
>
> And, another one:
>
> <https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/25/electric-bus-flames-fire-putney-go-ahead-london-garage/>
>
> An electric bus has burst into flames in London, just weeks after another
> from the same fleet was engulfed, sparking panic among commuters.

What's interesting is that data gathering, funded by the Australian
government:
https://www.evfiresafe.com/ev-battery-fire-data

only counted 3 lithium ion battery fires on buses globally in the first half
of 2023 (the most recent data).

They only count battery fires, rather than fires in other parts of the
vehicle. For example in the heating or other parts of the electrical
system.

There are some limitations on data availability as their purpose is to have
verified data rather than anecdata, but either they aren't battery fires or
London is very misfortunate.

Theo

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

<up0lmq$2ua1u$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2024 16:13:14 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Fri, 26 Jan 2024 16:13 UTC

On 26 Jan 2024 13:26:34 +0000 (GMT)
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>What's interesting is that data gathering, funded by the Australian
>government:
>https://www.evfiresafe.com/ev-battery-fire-data
>
>only counted 3 lithium ion battery fires on buses globally in the first half
>of 2023 (the most recent data).

I find that very hard to believe.

>There are some limitations on data availability as their purpose is to have
>verified data rather than anecdata, but either they aren't battery fires or
>London is very misfortunate.

More likely their data gathering leads something to be desired. Bus
manufacturers and operators are hardly going to publicise a fire if they
can help it and they're certainly not going to report it to some 3rd party
group unless they have to.

Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

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Subject: Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire
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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 26 Jan 2024 18:44 UTC

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67967421>
>>
>> And, another one:
>>
>> <https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/25/electric-bus-flames-fire-putney-go-ahead-london-garage/>
>>
>> An electric bus has burst into flames in London, just weeks after another
>> from the same fleet was engulfed, sparking panic among commuters.
>
> What's interesting is that data gathering, funded by the Australian
> government:
> https://www.evfiresafe.com/ev-battery-fire-data
>
> only counted 3 lithium ion battery fires on buses globally in the first half
> of 2023 (the most recent data).
>
> They only count battery fires, rather than fires in other parts of the
> vehicle. For example in the heating or other parts of the electrical
> system.
>
> There are some limitations on data availability as their purpose is to have
> verified data rather than anecdata, but either they aren't battery fires or
> London is very misfortunate.
>

Those figures definitely sound too low.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/26/the-electric-vehicle-fiasco-has-become-dangerous/

Extract:

When Sadiq Khan promised to clean up London’s air by introducing electric
buses, did he factor in the black smoke which poured out of the Number 265
as it burst into flames in Putney on Wednesday?

That followed two very similar fires in the past fortnight which consumed
vehicles from the same fleet. Paris has already had to withdraw a fleet of
electric buses after a couple of fires, while in Venice-Mestre last October
21 people died after an electric bus caught fire and plunged off a flyover.

The “race to net zero”, as the politicians like to describe it, isn’t just
expensive; it is dangerous. It isn’t only electric buses which burst into
flames, of course – Ken Livingstone’s infamous bendy buses also had a habit
of catching fire, and they were diesel-powered. But when electric vehicles
catch fire they can be a lot harder to put out due to “thermal runaway”
where one overheating cell leads to the neighbouring cell, setting off a
chain reaction.

With buses, the problem is even bigger than in cars because the batteries
are necessarily larger. The fires can’t be tackled in the same way as
petrol or diesel vehicle fires, and vehicles are in some cases being left
to burn themselves out.

———

Venice tourist bus plunge leaves 21 dead
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67001518


aus+uk / uk.transport.london / Re: Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

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