On Wednesday, 15 March 2023 at 12:14:08 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 00:35:43 -0000, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid> wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:51:57 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
> >> <F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> dgb formulated the question :
> >>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
> >>> [...]
> >>>
> >>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
> >>>>>>> about the source.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
> >>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
> >>>
> >>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
> >>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
> >>
> >> It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
> >> camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
> >> download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
> >
> > To me, upload and download are the same operation, and in fact a single
> > transfer can be both at the same time. The difference is in the location
> > of the observer, or perhaps the location of the entity that initiated
> > the transfer. One person's upload is another person's download.
>
> I thought you were going to give us a lesson on relativity there.

It's like asking whether the beer mug is half full or half empty, it depends on who's round it is.

On 15/03/2023 12:41, whisky-dave wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 March 2023 at 12:14:08 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 00:35:43 -0000, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:51:57 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
>>>> <F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> dgb formulated the question :
>>>>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
>>>>>>>>> about the source.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
>>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
>>>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
>>>> camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
>>>> download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
>>>
>>> To me, upload and download are the same operation, and in fact a single
>>> transfer can be both at the same time. The difference is in the location
>>> of the observer, or perhaps the location of the entity that initiated
>>> the transfer. One person's upload is another person's download.
>>
>> I thought you were going to give us a lesson on relativity there.
>
> It's like asking whether the beer mug is half full or half empty, it depends on who's round it is.

Sounds a bit Quantum to me! There's only beer in the glass if there is
someone around to drink it.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Wednesday, 15 March 2023 at 13:01:45 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 15/03/2023 12:41, whisky-dave wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 15 March 2023 at 12:14:08 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 00:35:43 -0000, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid> wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:51:57 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
> >>>> <F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> dgb formulated the question :
> >>>>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
> >>>>> [...]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
> >>>>>>>>> about the source.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
> >>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
> >>>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
> >>>>
> >>>> It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
> >>>> camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
> >>>> download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
> >>>
> >>> To me, upload and download are the same operation, and in fact a single
> >>> transfer can be both at the same time. The difference is in the location
> >>> of the observer, or perhaps the location of the entity that initiated
> >>> the transfer. One person's upload is another person's download.
> >>
> >> I thought you were going to give us a lesson on relativity there.
> >
> > It's like asking whether the beer mug is half full or half empty, it depends on who's round it is.
> Sounds a bit Quantum to me! There's only beer in the glass if there is
> someone around to drink it.

What if Schrödinger's cat is there or not there to knock the mug off the table ?

> --
> Graeme Wall
> This account not read.

On Wednesday, 15 March 2023 at 12:13:37 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 08:13:51 -0000, FromTheRafters <F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
> > Ken Blake used his keyboard to write :
> >> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 16:42:35 -0500, FromTheRafters
> >> <F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Ken Blake explained on 2/26/2023 :
> >>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
> >>>> <F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> dgb formulated the question :
> >>>>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
> >>>>> [...]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
> >>>>>>>>> talking about the source.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
> >>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
> >>>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
> >>>>
> >>>> It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
> >>>> camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
> >>>> download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
> >>>
> >>> To me it's just a copy.
> >>
> >>
> >> To me, too, but if I had to give it a ***load name, I'd call it an
> >> upload.
> >
> > I guess I might too, since offload is not a computerese name.
>
> That reminds me. Some morons have invented the word gibibyte, and think gigabyte should mean a billion bytes. No, computers work in base 2. A billion means nothing to a computer. A gigabyte is 1024^3 and that's final. Only disk manufacturers and Apple use this base 10 nonsense. Disks because they can cheat you out of some size, and Apple because they correctly assume their users are thick as fuck.

I've always thought a kilo was 1000 and a Meg is 1,000,000 etc so giga should be 1,000,000,000 nothing to do with 1024
it;s an SI unit nothing to do with computers .

On 15 Mar 2023 at 13:01:42 GMT, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 15/03/2023 12:41, whisky-dave wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 15 March 2023 at 12:14:08 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 00:35:43 -0000, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:51:57 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:12:44 -0500, FromTheRafters
>>>>> <F...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> dgb formulated the question :
>>>>>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks <Dav...@a.new.address>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was talking
>>>>>>>>>> about the source.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
>>>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing
>>>>>> a photo on your screen means that you downloaded it
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't mean that to me. If you copy a photo from your phone or
>>>>> camera to your computer, that copying isn't what I would call a
>>>>> download. It's much more like an upload as far as I'm concerned.
>>>>
>>>> To me, upload and download are the same operation, and in fact a single
>>>> transfer can be both at the same time. The difference is in the location
>>>> of the observer, or perhaps the location of the entity that initiated
>>>> the transfer. One person's upload is another person's download.
>>>
>>> I thought you were going to give us a lesson on relativity there.
>>
>> It's like asking whether the beer mug is half full or half empty, it depends
>> on who's round it is.
>
> Sounds a bit Quantum to me! There's only beer in the glass if there is
> someone around to drink it.

Uploading is sending a file to a remote off-site host where such host is
nothing to do with me.
Downloading is retrieving a file from such a host.

Thus, I might download some version of macOS from Apple.

Images on my camera on my desk are merely copied to/from a computer sitting
next to it. Or copied to some off-site storage I can FTP to, and which is
therefore "mine" (cos I pay for it).

--
Tim

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:41:01 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 3/12/2023 7:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
>>>> RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
>>>
>>> Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
>>> different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
>>
>> I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of those is storing the apple.
>
> Storage can be persistent or volatile.

The apple is not stored in my hand. The program is not stored in RAM, it is held, just like the apple.

Why do we always use apples?

> Hard drive: persistent (I can still read a 20 year old hard drive)
> Core memory: persistent
> DRAM: volatile (upon power loss or loss of sync clock)
> SRAM: volatile (upon power loss)
> flash: persistent (ten years minimum, NOR or NAND)
>
> The desktop mini sitting on a cart in a lab in university,
> had core memory. You could load a program into core, and
> on the spur of the moment, flip the power switch next to the
> keyboard, yank the power cable out of the wall, and walk
> the cart into a different lab room. Plug in. And your
> program was still there, the cursor still pointing at
> the line number you were editing. The students loved this!

Why don't they do that with modern machines?

> There were never any fights over the machine. But there was
> only one of those (an HP product).
>
> This is persistent core memory, and it was sewn by hand, by some ladies.
> Ladies with really good eyesight.
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/KL_CoreMemory.jpg

That looks like a more advanced version than the one we have to show kids at school. I think ours was 10 by 10.

> There are enough wires through each core, to sustain "read" and "Write".
> After a "write", the "read" operation can sense a 0 or 1 in there.
> The timing is on the order of a microsecond or so. It's not a nanosecond device.
>
> The reason we had to move away from that, is the ladies could not possibly
> have sewn 64,000,000,000 * 8 to make my computer work :-) It was not
> a scaleable technology.

Must be possible to print it.

> A later technology, was magnetic bubble memory. While in many ways, it
> involves magnets, it has wires, the domains are in a solid and move
> around. Yet, they are still persistent when the power goes off. The
> bubbles do not collapse. The advantage of this idea, is the ladies
> don't have to sew every bubble. You get a higher ratio of "bubbles"
> to "wiring".
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_memory
>
> With regard to the DRAM entry, when a computer "sleeps", the memory
> chips have power, but the voltage is slightly reduced. The device
> is given an instruction for "Self Refresh" and as long as the
> chip has a clock signal, a counter inside the DRAM, keeps track
> of the rows and columns it needs to visit and do "refresh cycles".
> The charge would drain off the floating gate, if the device remained
> completely passive (like an SRAM would be when sleeping), and the
> charge on the gates is methodically refreshed. Perhaps the charge
> is guaranteed to stay put for 64 microseconds or something. Whereas
> if you stopped the recharging thing, "most" of the cells would retain
> their contents for at least a second, or even longer. Refresh is
> done faster, to "guarantee" the contents. When this is done
> on your laptop, the DRAM remains warm and it is draining the
> battery while this is going on. You can't "sleep" a laptop
> forever, while it is "on battery". This is why, even in this state,
> it's volatile, as the battery will eventually run out. And then
> hibernation has to happen in a hurry (if you expect to keep the
> RAM contents). Hibernation, records the RAM contents on the hard drive.

And eats half the SSD space.

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:47:55 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:42:03 PM MST, "Ken Blake" wrote
> <jlos0i5c97uj7gv7nilem6k7m13m44imn9@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:22:47 GMT, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:19:09 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.11pu171umvhs6z@ryzen.home>:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 16:22:37 -0000, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 01:08:18 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> dgb formulated the question :
>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>>>>>>> <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
>>>>>>>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
>>>>>>>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
>>>>>>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
>>>>>>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
>>>>>>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
>>>>>>>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
>>>>>>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All understood.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> drive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
>>>>>>>>>>>> if you cut the power.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
>>>>>>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
>>>>>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the
>>>>>>> only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette
>>>>>>> (cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on
>>>>>>> so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age,
>>>>>>> RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came
>>>>>>> along.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
>>>>>> It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
>>>>>> I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I never had a ZX81, nor any other kind of PC before the early days of
>>>>> the IBM XT, but I did play chess on several different computers my
>>>>> friends had. In my experience, those programs were always terrible,
>>>>> and I could beat them easily.
>>>>>
>>>>> These days, it's the other way around, of course. There are several
>>>>> programs that are much better than I ever was; I have a couple--Fritz
>>>>> and Rybka. There are even a few that can beat almost anyone.
>>>>
>>>> I thought there are now programs which can beat the grandmaster?
>>>
>>> Yup. Not sure if they do it 100% of the time, but they are damned good.
>>
>>
>> Yes, Alpha Zero and Stockfish.
>
> Is Stockfish one of the ones that beats the best? I did not know that. I knew
> it was good.

It's on my phone! It failed to beat my dad's antique computer. Although my phone has a faster processor (stockfish will use all 8 cores, he only has 2), the shitty Samsung only has 2GB of RAM, he had 8. I didn't bother playing it against the new i5 computer I gave him with 64GB RAM.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:04:34 -0000, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:47:55 GMT, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:42:03 PM MST, "Ken Blake" wrote
>> <jlos0i5c97uj7gv7nilem6k7m13m44imn9@4ax.com>:
>>
>>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:22:47 GMT, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2023 at 4:19:09 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>> <op.11pu171umvhs6z@ryzen.home>:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 16:22:37 -0000, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 01:08:18 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/26/2023 7:39 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:54:55 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> dgb formulated the question :
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
>>>>>>>>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
>>>>>>>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
>>>>>>>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
>>>>>>>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
>>>>>>>>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
>>>>>>>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All understood.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you cut the power.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
>>>>>>>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
>>>>>>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For most of the first year that I had only a Commodore64, RAM was the
>>>>>>>> only type of storage that I had available. I finally added a Datassette
>>>>>>>> (cassette tape storage), but before that I just kept the C64 powered on
>>>>>>>> so that I wouldn't lose my programs. So for me, and from an early age,
>>>>>>>> RAM is definitely a type of storage, even more so once RAM drives came
>>>>>>>> along.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The ZX81 was like that. Cassette recorder, some sorta FSK audio.
>>>>>>> It would take ten or fifteen minutes to load chess.
>>>>>>> I had 16KB of RAM (just so I could use chess).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never had a ZX81, nor any other kind of PC before the early days of
>>>>>> the IBM XT, but I did play chess on several different computers my
>>>>>> friends had. In my experience, those programs were always terrible,
>>>>>> and I could beat them easily.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These days, it's the other way around, of course. There are several
>>>>>> programs that are much better than I ever was; I have a couple--Fritz
>>>>>> and Rybka. There are even a few that can beat almost anyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought there are now programs which can beat the grandmaster?
>>>>
>>>> Yup. Not sure if they do it 100% of the time, but they are damned good.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, Alpha Zero and Stockfish.
>>
>> Is Stockfish one of the ones that beats the best? I did not know that. I knew
>> it was good.
>
>
> I think only some of the time. Apparently Alpha Zero is better.

I thought only one could beat stockfish, and it's GPU based engine. Can't find it now.

On Mar 19, 2023 at 2:48:40 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.112pjeynmvhs6z@ryzen.home>:

>>>> Yup. Not sure if they do it 100% of the time, but they are damned good.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, Alpha Zero and Stockfish.
>>
>> Is Stockfish one of the ones that beats the best? I did not know that. I knew
>> it was good.
>
> It's on my phone! It failed to beat my dad's antique computer. Although my
> phone has a faster processor (stockfish will use all 8 cores, he only has 2),
> the shitty Samsung only has 2GB of RAM, he had 8. I didn't bother playing it
> against the new i5 computer I gave him with 64GB RAM.

Makes sense it needs lots of resources to be anywhere near its best.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
> [....]
>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>
>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>
>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>
>> Memory is about storage.
>
> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!

No I didn't, that was Dundee.

> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
> Physics degree!

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 07:20:24 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>> dgb formulated the question :
>>>>>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>>> <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
>>>>>>>>>> talking
>>>>>>>>>> about the source.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on
>>>>>>>>> one's
>>>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
>>>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
>>>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
>>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
>>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
>>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
>>>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
>>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
>>>>>
>>>>> All understood.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
>>>>>>>>> drive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
>>>>>>>> if you cut the power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
>>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
>>>
>>> Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
>>> different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
>>
>> I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of
>> those is storing the apple.
>
> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
> access stored program machines with attached background storage.

We're talking about the meaning of a word in the English language.

> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>
> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>
> Memory is about storage.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 23:27:23 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
>> On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>> [....]
>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>
>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>
>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>
>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>
>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
>>> Physics degree!
>>
>> I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the last class at that college
>> to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
>
> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I
> was learning about electronics!
>
> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>
> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
> through the heart of the pilot.

That sounds fun!

> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!

Eh? I assume it's the side he's on which matters.

I prefer er, it's how it's pronounced.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 23:33:05 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> Oops!
>
>> They'd only just invented transistOrs when I was learning about
>> electronics!
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:18:00 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
> <tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
>>> learning about electronics!
>>>
>>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>>
>>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>>
>>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>>
>> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
>
> Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by
> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
>
> https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
>
> (I am, of course, kidding).

That took a lot of bullets to not get that boat.

On Mar 19, 2023 at 3:09:41 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.112qifp4mvhs6z@ryzen.home>:

> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:18:00 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
>> <tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
>>>> learning about electronics!
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>>>
>>>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>>>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>>>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>>>
>>>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>>>
>>> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
>>
>> Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by
>> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
>>
>> (I am, of course, kidding).
>
> That took a lot of bullets to not get that boat.

It did.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On 19/03/2023 22:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks
> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>> [....]
>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>
>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>
>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>
>>> Memory is about storage.
>>
>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>
> No I didn't, that was Dundee.
[....]

My apologies. Dundee is good for cakes, I know.
I had no idea that there was a University there.

Some great photos to explore, here:-

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 22:16:40 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 19, 2023 at 3:09:41 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.112qifp4mvhs6z@ryzen.home>:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:18:00 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
>>> <tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>
>>>>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
>>>>> learning about electronics!
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>>>>
>>>>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>>>>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>>>>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>>>>
>>>> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
>>>
>>> Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by
>>> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
>>>
>>> (I am, of course, kidding).
>>
>> That took a lot of bullets to not get that boat.
>
> It did.

A rather embarrassing fail. If I was the navy purchasing officer, I'd have laughed and refused to buy it.

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 19/03/2023 22:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks
>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>> [....]
>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>
>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>
>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>
>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>
>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>
>> No I didn't, that was Dundee.
> [....]
>
> My apologies. Dundee is good for cakes, I know.

I've corrected you on this before. You must be getting old.

> I had no idea that there was a University there.

There is, there is also a College called Abertay, which pretends to be a University. As our then Dean Stephen Fry once said, "Dundee is a real University, from before the time when any school with a big enough playground could claim to be one".

> Some great photos to explore, here:-
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY

Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I cycled over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench. He once got drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop. Once I gave him a quid and two blokes told me off! I told them to go fuck themselves.

On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>> On 19/03/2023 22:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks
>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>>> [....]
>>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>>
>>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>>
>>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>>
>>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>>
>>> No I didn't, that was Dundee.
>> [....]
>>
>> My apologies. Dundee is good for cakes, I know.
>
> I've corrected you on this before.  You must be getting old.

Indeed. It's *MUCH* better than the alternative! ;-)

>> I had no idea that there was a University there.
>
> There is, there is also a College called Abertay, which pretends to be a
> University.  As our then Dean Stephen Fry once said, "Dundee is a real
> University, from before the time when any school with a big enough
> playground could claim to be one".

I like the quote!

>> Some great photos to explore, here:-
>>
>> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY
>
> Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I cycled
> over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench.  He once got
> drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop.  Once I gave him a
> quid and two blokes told me off!  I told them to go fuck themselves.

Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!

Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!

--
David

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:07:37 +0100, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/03/2023 22:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks
>>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>>>> [....]
>>>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>>>
>>>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>>>
>>>> No I didn't, that was Dundee.
>>> [....]
>>>
>>> My apologies. Dundee is good for cakes, I know.
>>
>> I've corrected you on this before. You must be getting old.
>
> Indeed. It's *MUCH* better than the alternative! ;-)

In the 21st century we shouldn't be dying in double digits. I'm currently working on cancer research.

>>> I had no idea that there was a University there.
>>
>> There is, there is also a College called Abertay, which pretends to be a
>> University. As our then Dean Stephen Fry once said, "Dundee is a real
>> University, from before the time when any school with a big enough
>> playground could claim to be one".
>
> I like the quote!
>
>>> Some great photos to explore, here:-
>>>
>>> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY
>>
>> Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I cycled
>> over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench. He once got
>> drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop. Once I gave him a
>> quid and two blokes told me off! I told them to go fuck themselves.
>
> Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!
>
> Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!

I lived 11 miles from it for 25 years. I lived in the countryside, similar sorta place to where you live, except no beach, but we did have three reservoirs. I treated Dundee as a city you went to for shops, it served no aesthetic purpose.

On 08/04/2023 03:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:07:37 +0100, David Brooks
> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>> On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19/03/2023 22:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks
>>>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>>>>> [....]
>>>>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>>>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>>>>
>>>>> No I didn't, that was Dundee.
>>>> [....]
>>>>
>>>> My apologies. Dundee is good for cakes, I know.
>>>
>>> I've corrected you on this before.  You must be getting old.
>>
>> Indeed. It's *MUCH* better than the alternative! ;-)
>
> In the 21st century we shouldn't be dying in double digits.  I'm
> currently working on cancer research.

I applaud the work you do helping with scientific research.

>>>> I had no idea that there was a University there.
>>>
>>> There is, there is also a College called Abertay, which pretends to be a
>>> University.  As our then Dean Stephen Fry once said, "Dundee is a real
>>> University, from before the time when any school with a big enough
>>> playground could claim to be one".
>>
>> I like the quote!
>>
>>>> Some great photos to explore, here:-
>>>>
>>>> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY
>>>
>>> Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I cycled
>>> over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench.  He once got
>>> drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop.  Once I gave him a
>>> quid and two blokes told me off!  I told them to go fuck themselves.
>>
>> Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!
>>
>> Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!
>
> I lived 11 miles from it for 25 years.  I lived in the countryside,
> similar sorta place to where you live, except no beach, but we did have
> three reservoirs.  I treated Dundee as a city you went to for shops, it
> served no aesthetic purpose.

Well I'm pleased to have been able to show you a little more of what's
on your doorstep. so to speak!

Do you now know all about Adam Duncan?

--
David

On 23/04/2023 10:09, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 08:40:19 +0100, David Brooks
> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>> On 08/04/2023 03:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:07:37 +0100, David Brooks
>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
>>>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Some great photos to explore, here:-
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY
>>>>>
>>>>> Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I
>>>>> cycled
>>>>> over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench.  He
>>>>> once got
>>>>> drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop.  Once I gave him a
>>>>> quid and two blokes told me off!  I told them to go fuck themselves.
>>>>
>>>> Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!
>>>>
>>>> Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!
>>>
>>> I lived 11 miles from it for 25 years.  I lived in the countryside,
>>> similar sorta place to where you live, except no beach, but we did have
>>> three reservoirs.  I treated Dundee as a city you went to for shops, it
>>> served no aesthetic purpose.
>>
>> Well I'm pleased to have been able to show you a little more of what's
>> on your doorstep. so to speak!
>>
>> Do you now know all about Adam Duncan?
>
> A Google search for Adam Duncan finds someone who videoed a naked girl
> in a bathtub (like a parent would never see such a thing), a captain in
> the US Navy, a British Admiral born in 1731, a cricketer, a lawyer, a
> footballer, a.... let's narrow this search down a bit:
>
> Ah, this chap?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Duncan,_1st_Viscount_Duncan#/media/File:Adam_Duncan,_1st_Viscount_Duncan_by_John_Hoppner.jpg
>
> No, never heard of him.

You pinpointed the correct fellow. 🙂

There is a statue of him in Dundee <rolls eyes>

https://uk.trip.com/travel-guide/attraction/dundee/adam-duncan-statue-55996916/

On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 08:40:19 +0100, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 08/04/2023 03:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:07:37 +0100, David Brooks
>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
>>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Some great photos to explore, here:-
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY
>>>>
>>>> Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I cycled
>>>> over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench. He once got
>>>> drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop. Once I gave him a
>>>> quid and two blokes told me off! I told them to go fuck themselves.
>>>
>>> Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!
>>>
>>> Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!
>>
>> I lived 11 miles from it for 25 years. I lived in the countryside,
>> similar sorta place to where you live, except no beach, but we did have
>> three reservoirs. I treated Dundee as a city you went to for shops, it
>> served no aesthetic purpose.
>
> Well I'm pleased to have been able to show you a little more of what's
> on your doorstep. so to speak!
>
> Do you now know all about Adam Duncan?

A Google search for Adam Duncan finds someone who videoed a naked girl in a bathtub (like a parent would never see such a thing), a captain in the US Navy, a British Admiral born in 1731, a cricketer, a lawyer, a footballer, a.... let's narrow this search down a bit:

Ah, this chap?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Duncan,_1st_Viscount_Duncan#/media/File:Adam_Duncan,_1st_Viscount_Duncan_by_John_Hoppner.jpg

No, never heard of him.

On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 22:55:48 +0100, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 23/04/2023 10:09, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 08:40:19 +0100, David Brooks
>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/04/2023 03:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:07:37 +0100, David Brooks
>>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 30/03/2023 11:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 23:06:24 -0000, David Brooks
>>>>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some great photos to explore, here:-
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Never actually seen any of those places, except the Tay Bridge I
>>>>>> cycled
>>>>>> over many times, and perhaps the homeless guy on the bench. He
>>>>>> once got
>>>>>> drunk and kept trying to cuddle me at the bus stop. Once I gave him a
>>>>>> quid and two blokes told me off! I told them to go fuck themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, you would, wouldn't you?!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Open your eyes next time you visit, eh?!!
>>>>
>>>> I lived 11 miles from it for 25 years. I lived in the countryside,
>>>> similar sorta place to where you live, except no beach, but we did have
>>>> three reservoirs. I treated Dundee as a city you went to for shops, it
>>>> served no aesthetic purpose.
>>>
>>> Well I'm pleased to have been able to show you a little more of what's
>>> on your doorstep. so to speak!
>>>
>>> Do you now know all about Adam Duncan?
>>
>> A Google search for Adam Duncan finds someone who videoed a naked girl
>> in a bathtub (like a parent would never see such a thing), a captain in
>> the US Navy, a British Admiral born in 1731, a cricketer, a lawyer, a
>> footballer, a.... let's narrow this search down a bit:
>>
>> Ah, this chap?
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Duncan,_1st_Viscount_Duncan#/media/File:Adam_Duncan,_1st_Viscount_Duncan_by_John_Hoppner.jpg
>>
>> No, never heard of him.
>
> You pinpointed the correct fellow. 🙂
>
> There is a statue of him in Dundee <rolls eyes>
>
> https://uk.trip.com/travel-guide/attraction/dundee/adam-duncan-statue-55996916/

Either that first photo is taken at an unfortunate angle, or some scoundrel has titillated the statue.