During last summer's trip, intermittently my R1200RT hazard warning lights failed. I tried to use them once as a 'thank you' and they didn't work so, of course, I spent the next two weeks trying to use them with mixed results.

When I got back to the UK they started to work again so I forgot all about it until this week when I tried to use them... and they didn't work.

So I set to having a look at it since the MOT's coming up.

My, what a pain. I thought it was two screws and the switchgear would fall apart into two halves, only one of which had any contents. No... Two screws and a spudger tool to pry the two halves apart and a flexible PCB encased in epoxy/plastic that goes all the way around the bars is half exposed, to see the rest of it you need to take the grip/switchgear off the LH bar and, to do that, I needed to remove two large fairing panels, three small ones and the petrol tank.

About two hours later I've got the switchgear off but nothing looks obviously wrong. It's also massively complicated with three different sockets in the switchgear and one flying lead. Also about a dozen or more buttons sticking out of the 'potted' flexible PCB each with a small plastic cap that falls off and tried to get lost (and the switches won't work without the caps).

Another hour or so of fucking around and I traced the hazard switch wire from one of the connectors to the relevant 'computer' port on the bike and the wire's continuous. So it looks like it's the switchgear (or, even worse the computer... but I can't see that (or don't want to)).

Onto the PC and look for replacement switchgear. Motorworks list it... for £180 but it's not in stock and that's a second hand price. Look for other sellers but there are so many variations (suspension, traction control, cruise control variants or combinations of the three). New... well I can't find it in the UK but in the US/EU it's over £300 and I still question if it's the right variant.

I moan on a text message and Simon Weller helpfully points out that 'hazard lights aren't part of a bike MOT'... I had just assumed they were. Google the MOT manual and for cars it says:

"Headlamp, position lamps, daytime running lamps, stop lamps, indicators, hazard warning lamps, fog lamps, reversing lamps, lighting ‘tell-tales’, trailer electrical socket, electrical wiring and battery rules and inspection for car and passenger vehicle MOT tests."

and for bikes...

"Headlamp, position lamps, stop lamps, direction indicators, rear registration plate lamp, rear reflector and direction indicator ‘tell-tale’ rules and inspection for motorcycle MOT tests."

So it seems that hazards don't have to work on the bike.

Think I'll give my MOT test place a call on Tuesday and check what they'd do. I'll live with an advisory...

So overall it'll be something like 4 hours to come to the (hopeful) conclusion that nothing needs to be done (and clean / regrease a bunch of fasteners). Can think of worse things to do with a bank holiday.

On 08/04/2023 20:55, Stephen Packer wrote:
> During last summer's trip, intermittently my R1200RT hazard warning lights failed. I tried to use them once as a 'thank you' and they didn't work so, of course, I spent the next two weeks trying to use them with mixed results.

Is it all on the PCB now, and not a separate 'flasher' relay?

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

On 08/04/2023 20:55, Stephen Packer wrote:
> During last summer's trip, intermittently my R1200RT hazard warning lights failed. I tried to use them once as a 'thank you' and they didn't work so, of course, I spent the next two weeks trying to use them with mixed results.
>
<snip>

> I moan on a text message and Simon Weller helpfully points out that 'hazard lights aren't part of a bike MOT'... I had just assumed they were. Google the MOT manual and for cars it says:
>
> "Headlamp, position lamps, daytime running lamps, stop lamps, indicators, hazard warning lamps, fog lamps, reversing lamps, lighting ‘tell-tales’, trailer electrical socket, electrical wiring and battery rules and inspection for car and passenger vehicle MOT tests."
>
> and for bikes...
>
> "Headlamp, position lamps, stop lamps, direction indicators, rear registration plate lamp, rear reflector and direction indicator ‘tell-tale’ rules and inspection for motorcycle MOT tests."
>
> So it seems that hazards don't have to work on the bike.

I thought the rule was that that if something was fitted, it had to be
working?

But thinking about it, I have hazzrds on the Pegs, and they have never
been tested. (I know because I am always asked to do the indicator
operation while he checks).
>
> Think I'll give my MOT test place a call on Tuesday and check what they'd do. I'll live with an advisory...
>
> So overall it'll be something like 4 hours to come to the (hopeful) conclusion that nothing needs to be done (and clean / regrease a bunch of fasteners). Can think of worse things to do with a bank holiday.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 08/04/2023 20:55, Stephen Packer wrote:
> During last summer's trip, intermittently my R1200RT hazard warning lights failed. I tried to use them once as a 'thank you' and they didn't work so, of course, I spent the next two weeks trying to use them with mixed results.
>
> When I got back to the UK they started to work again so I forgot all about it until this week when I tried to use them... and they didn't work.
>
> So I set to having a look at it since the MOT's coming up.

I spent most of my working life working on electronics - designing,
building and fixing. The golden rule I learned was that 90%+ of
'electrical/electronic' problems were actually mechanical in some way -
usually of the poor/broken contact variety.
A sub-rule is that an electronic component, once failed/broken/defective
will not refix itself - therefore although your pcb might be faulty in
some way, it probably[1] won't be a component failure. However, provided
all was clean and dry with no signs of corrosion when you disassembled
things, your fault probably lies elsewhere.

HTH

Chris
[1] The exception being where something's tolerance has changed or
become temperature related.
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On Sunday, 9 April 2023 at 11:38:26 UTC+1, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:

> I spent most of my working life working on electronics - designing,
> building and fixing. The golden rule I learned was that 90%+ of
> 'electrical/electronic' problems were actually mechanical in some way -
> usually of the poor/broken contact variety.
> A sub-rule is that an electronic component, once failed/broken/defective
> will not refix itself - therefore although your pcb might be faulty in
> some way, it probably[1] won't be a component failure. However, provided
> all was clean and dry with no signs of corrosion when you disassembled
> things, your fault probably lies elsewhere.

The switches fail (apparently) and because they're potted they can't be
individually replaced. Also the (flexible) PCB tracks crack and... since it's
potted a continuity check can't (easily) be done.

Visually all looks good and the switch 'feels' OK but I guess if there is some
debris in it that's fouling the contacts then that could well be intermittent.

A little google searching shows others have had random issues with these
assemblies and the fact that BMW have changed the part suggests that
there is a fix out there... at a price!

Stephen Packer wrote:

> On Sunday, 9 April 2023 at 11:38:26 UTC+1, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
>
> > I spent most of my working life working on electronics - designing,
> > building and fixing. The golden rule I learned was that 90%+ of
> > 'electrical/electronic' problems were actually mechanical in some
> > way - usually of the poor/broken contact variety.
> > A sub-rule is that an electronic component, once
> > failed/broken/defective will not refix itself - therefore although
> > your pcb might be faulty in some way, it probably[1] won't be a
> > component failure. However, provided all was clean and dry with no
> > signs of corrosion when you disassembled things, your fault
> > probably lies elsewhere.
>
> The switches fail (apparently) and because they're potted they can't
> be individually replaced. Also the (flexible) PCB tracks crack and...
> since it's potted a continuity check can't (easily) be done.
>
> Visually all looks good and the switch 'feels' OK but I guess if
> there is some debris in it that's fouling the contacts then that
> could well be intermittent.
>

You mention a summer trip in Europe and now temperatures are on the up
here again, perhaps ambient temps are having an effect?
My electical diagnosis usually consists of 1)inspect for water
contaminmation tell-tales especially around relays. 2) Look for
exploded/burnt components. 3) Check for dodgy solder joints. 4) A
generous squirt of contact spray in switches, buttons, relays,
connections and any other moving bits. If all that fails then buy a new
one.

--

Geoff
NTV650

YTC#1 wrote:

> I thought the rule was that that if something was fitted, it had to
> be working?

Only if it's a testable item. There are two versions of that - one is
it needs to be fitted and working (eg indicators post-1986) the other
is if it's fitted it needs to work (eg indicators pre-1986).

Then there's the tester doesn't even need to look for it category -
hazard lights on a bike fall into that.

--
Simon

On 10/04/2023 13:02, sweller wrote:
> YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> I thought the rule was that that if something was fitted, it had to
>> be working?
>
> Only if it's a testable item. There are two versions of that - one is
> it needs to be fitted and working (eg indicators post-1986) the other
> is if it's fitted it needs to work (eg indicators pre-1986).
>
> Then there's the tester doesn't even need to look for it category -
> hazard lights on a bike fall into that.
>

Good to know

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk> wrote in
news:u0tv4o$1lu9h$1@dont-email.me:

> On 08/04/2023 20:55, Stephen Packer wrote:
>> During last summer's trip, intermittently my R1200RT hazard warning
>> lights failed. I tried to use them once as a 'thank you' and they
>> didn't work so, of course, I spent the next two weeks trying to use
>> them with mixed results.
>>
> <snip>
>
>> I moan on a text message and Simon Weller helpfully points out that
>> 'hazard lights aren't part of a bike MOT'... I had just assumed
>> they were. Google the MOT manual and for cars it says:
>>
>> "Headlamp, position lamps, daytime running lamps, stop lamps,
>> indicators, hazard warning lamps, fog lamps, reversing lamps,
>> lighting ‘tell-tales’, trailer electrical socket, electrical
>> wiring and battery rules and inspection for car and passenger vehicle
>> MOT tests."
>>
>> and for bikes...
>>
>> "Headlamp, position lamps, stop lamps, direction indicators, rear
>> registration plate lamp, rear reflector and direction indicator
>> ‘tell-tale’ rules and inspection for motorcycle MOT tests."
>>
>> So it seems that hazards don't have to work on the bike.
>
> I thought the rule was that that if something was fitted, it had to be
> working?
>

No. I spent a while unclogging the rear washer on my car only to be told by
the tester that it was not in the test.

Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote in
news:u0shri$1copd$1@dont-email.me:

> On 08/04/2023 20:55, Stephen Packer wrote:
>> During last summer's trip, intermittently my R1200RT hazard warning
>> lights failed. I tried to use them once as a 'thank you' and they
>> didn't work so, of course, I spent the next two weeks trying to use
>> them with mixed results.
>
>
> Is it all on the PCB now, and not a separate 'flasher' relay?
>

as a 1200, it's going to have a canbus so the switch is a logic switch not
a power on/off. The little PCB in the switchgear will be a canbus node for
the cluster. The flashing will be determined by the main ECU which will
talk to the lamps via another canbus node.

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote in
news:d597a907-f82f-4385-b6ec-0a303d64a69fn@googlegroups.com:

> On Sunday, 9 April 2023 at 11:38:26 UTC+1, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
>
>> I spent most of my working life working on electronics - designing,
>> building and fixing. The golden rule I learned was that 90%+ of
>> 'electrical/electronic' problems were actually mechanical in some way
>> - usually of the poor/broken contact variety.
>> A sub-rule is that an electronic component, once
>> failed/broken/defective will not refix itself - therefore although
>> your pcb might be faulty in some way, it probably[1] won't be a
>> component failure. However, provided all was clean and dry with no
>> signs of corrosion when you disassembled things, your fault probably
>> lies elsewhere.
>
> The switches fail (apparently) and because they're potted they can't
> be individually replaced. Also the (flexible) PCB tracks crack and...
> since it's potted a continuity check can't (easily) be done.
>
> Visually all looks good and the switch 'feels' OK but I guess if there
> is some debris in it that's fouling the contacts then that could well
> be intermittent.
>
> A little google searching shows others have had random issues with
> these assemblies and the fact that BMW have changed the part suggests
> that there is a fix out there... at a price!

Quality on 1200 switchgear has been hit & miss. My 2016 R1200RS had a new
left cluster just before the 2 year warranty expired. One of the switches
got a bit notchy and I mentioned it to Cotswold BMW and it was replaced
without any question. They had done shedloads on 2015-2017 bikes with the
cruise control switches.

On Monday, 10 April 2023 at 15:45:09 UTC+1, wessie wrote:
> Stephen Packer <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote in

> > A little google searching shows others have had random issues with
> > these assemblies and the fact that BMW have changed the part suggests
> > that there is a fix out there... at a price!
> Quality on 1200 switchgear has been hit & miss. My 2016 R1200RS had a new
> left cluster just before the 2 year warranty expired. One of the switches
> got a bit notchy and I mentioned it to Cotswold BMW and it was replaced
> without any question. They had done shedloads on 2015-2017 bikes with the
> cruise control switches.

Mine's 2012 but there are plenty of people complaining about bikes of that vintage
failing. Dismantling the switch cluster and putting it back together seems
to have disabled the cruise control, I've probably not got the switches lined up
with the paddles that operate them so while the 'paddle' in the switchgear moves
it's not actually operating the switch. Maybe there's a reason in the BMW parts
catalogue it tells you not to disassemble the switch...

I think if I remove the bar from the bike I can get the switch off without taking
all the fairings off (I think it would take me about 90 minutes to get the fairings
off and back on again now).

What a pain. I can live without hazard warning lights but I do like to put on
the cruise control and have a nap.

Maybe I should just bite the bullet and buy a new switch cluster...

But seriously it's almost 400 fucking quid!

It's not an H2R FFS.

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote in
news:04a7a336-4869-40c3-90cb-41f82d992b30n@googlegroups.com:

> Maybe I should just bite the bullet and buy a new switch cluster...
>
> But seriously it's almost 400 fucking quid!
>
> It's not an H2R FFS.
>

hence I was keen to get a 2018 version, which seem to be more robust,
before my warranty ended. 4.5 years on, still fine.

On Monday, 10 April 2023 at 18:32:13 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
<snip>
> Maybe I should just bite the bullet and buy a new switch cluster...
>
> But seriously it's almost 400 fucking quid!
>
> It's not an H2R FFS.

Of course I bought another switch cluster for 'some money'.

UK delivery seemed to be slow and also pricey.

So I ordered from Germany; just under £300...

I expected to have to pay VAT and Parcelforce's fee on top of that.

What I didn't expect was that it would take almost three weeks to get here.

Also... I thought we had a 'free trade deal' with the EU? Why then am I being
charged £5.22 customs duty?

Anyway... £370 is still less than I saw it for in the UK and 3 weeks (assuming
parcelforce deliver when they say they will) is still swifter than I saw it offered
in the UK (6 weeks).

On 28/04/2023 13:30, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Monday, 10 April 2023 at 18:32:13 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
> <snip>
>> Maybe I should just bite the bullet and buy a new switch cluster...
>>
>> But seriously it's almost 400 fucking quid!
>>
>> It's not an H2R FFS.
>
> Of course I bought another switch cluster for 'some money'.
>
> UK delivery seemed to be slow and also pricey.
>
> So I ordered from Germany; just under £300...
>
> I expected to have to pay VAT and Parcelforce's fee on top of that.
>
> What I didn't expect was that it would take almost three weeks to get here.
>
> Also... I thought we had a 'free trade deal' with the EU? Why then am I being
> charged £5.22 customs duty?

I think the Government have decided to adopt the IT industry's
definition of free as applied to free software: you are free to trade
with the EU, not that there is no charge for doing so. ;-)

>
> Anyway... £370 is still less than I saw it for in the UK and 3 weeks (assuming
> parcelforce deliver when they say they will) is still swifter than I saw it offered
> in the UK (6 weeks).

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On Friday, 28 April 2023 at 21:39:10 UTC+1, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> On 28/04/2023 13:30, Stephen Packer wrote:

> > Also... I thought we had a 'free trade deal' with the EU? Why then am I being
> > charged £5.22 customs duty?
> I think the Government have decided to adopt the IT industry's
> definition of free as applied to free software: you are free to trade
> with the EU, not that there is no charge for doing so. ;-)

Amusing as it is... it's just more fucking lies that were spun to us by the
leave campaign (all the benefits etc.) and the tories (oven ready deal etc.)
Bunch of cunts, I hope they all get gout.