There just must have been far too much 'friendly banter' at Yorkshire.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59170256

max.it

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On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 12:34:49 AM UTC, max.it wrote:
> There just must have been far too much 'friendly banter' at Yorkshire.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59170256
>
>
> max.it
>
> --
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Vaughan has stated unequivocally that he did not say what he is alleged to have said so it is basically his word against the accuser. RH

On Friday, 5 November 2021 at 09:02:39 UTC, RH wrote:

> Vaughan has stated unequivocally that he did not say what he is alleged to have said so it is basically his word against the accuser. RH

And Rana Naved, who also heard it.

Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 7:45:37 AM UTC+10, richsdi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 5 November 2021 at 09:02:39 UTC, RH wrote:
>
> > Vaughan has stated unequivocally that he did not say what he is alleged to have said so it is basically his word against the accuser. RH
> And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
>
> Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.

I don't care if he's a prick. None of us are perfect.
But if your racism is exposed, you deserve to lose your public-facing job/s.
Especially if you deny it.

On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 13:45:36 -0800 (PST), Richard Dixon
<richsdixon1975@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 5 November 2021 at 09:02:39 UTC, RH wrote:
>
>> Vaughan has stated unequivocally that he did not say what he is alleged to have said so it is basically his word against the accuser. RH
>
>And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
>
>Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.

I'm not a fan of his broadcasting. I would all the same, like to know
if anyone was with him or near him when the alleged incident happened,
or if he can't remember it happening at all.

max.it

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On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:43:56 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> >And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
> >
> >Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.
> I'm not a fan of his broadcasting. I would all the same, like to know
> if anyone was with him or near him when the alleged incident happened,
> or if he can't remember it happening at all.
> max.it

Rana Naved?

On 09/11/2021 06:45, jack fredricks wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:43:56 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
>>> And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
>>>
>>> Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.
>> I'm not a fan of his broadcasting. I would all the same, like to know
>> if anyone was with him or near him when the alleged incident happened,
>> or if he can't remember it happening at all.
>> max.it
>
> Rana Naved?

I think the alleged comments were made during a county game in 2009 - I
seem to recall reading that somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but
Vaughan and Rafiq only played together in two matches in 2009, the first
two matches that Rafiq played. The first was a home match at Headingley
vs Sussex, starting 6 June, and the 2nd was away at Worcester, starting
16 June. Naved-ul-Hasan only played in the first match, although he
might have been at Worcester without playing.

Others who could potentially have overheard the alleged comments in
those two games included Rudolph, Sayers, McGrath, Gale, Brophy,
Bresnan, Wainwright, Kruis, Bairstow, Shahzad & Hoggard.

Other Yorks squad members who also played in 2009 were:

Lee, Lyth, Patterson, Pyrah & Adil Rashid.

On Monday, 8 November 2021 at 22:49:21 UTC, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:

> I don't care if he's a prick. None of us are perfect.
> But if your racism is exposed, you deserve to lose your public-facing job/s.
> Especially if you deny it.

He's got a history of forgetting things

https://twitter.com/martynziegler/status/1458002201595502593

Richard

On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 9:45:37 PM UTC, richsdi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 5 November 2021 at 09:02:39 UTC, RH wrote:
>
> > Vaughan has stated unequivocally that he did not say what he is alleged to have said so it is basically his word against the accuser. RH
> And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
>
> Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.

Very pc Dixon displays his pc viciousness ... RH

In message <f1ce26ae-d99f-4ed1-9fdc-04d04d39f781n@googlegroups.com>,
Richard Dixon <richsdixon1975@gmail.com> writes
>On Friday, 5 November 2021 at 09:02:39 UTC, RH wrote:
>
>> Vaughan has stated unequivocally that he did not say what he is
>>alleged to have said so it is basically his word against the accuser. RH
>
>And Rana Naved, who also heard it.

But the other Muslim (I can't remember his name) who was supposedly
present has said that he didn't hear the alleged remark. So that's two v
two. Unfortunately, as it occurred 12 years ago I doubt that we'll ever
find out for sure whether Vaughan said it or not, so I think the claim
must be regarded as unproven and he has to be regarded as innocent.

>
>Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.

I don't much care for him either, but even pricks are entitled to
justice.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:34:05 +0000, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <f1ce26ae-d99f-4ed1-9fdc-04d04d39f781n@googlegroups.com>,
>Richard Dixon <richsdixon1975@gmail.com> writes
>>On Friday, 5 November 2021 at 09:02:39 UTC, RH wrote:
>>
>>> Vaughan has stated unequivocally that he did not say what he is
>>>alleged to have said so it is basically his word against the accuser. RH
>>
>>And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
>
>But the other Muslim (I can't remember his name) who was supposedly
>present has said that he didn't hear the alleged remark. So that's two v
>two. Unfortunately, as it occurred 12 years ago I doubt that we'll ever
>find out for sure whether Vaughan said it or not, so I think the claim
>must be regarded as unproven and he has to be regarded as innocent.
>
>>
>>Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.
>
>I don't much care for him either, but even pricks are entitled to
>justice.

At the very beginning I thought that Rafiq must have been a twat and
attracted 'unfortunate' reactions and behaviour from people, and that
he was just bitter. I reckon I was wrong.

Not hearing what was said isn't the same as saying it didn't happen.
It proves that Vaughan was present, so he can't claim the actual event
never happened; he can only dispute what was said.

Can that other player not remember anything being said, or can he not
remember what was said?
In your deductive tick boxes.

*Vaughan was present when the alleged incident happened.
*Two players allegations support each other's.
* Other witnesses - always a tricky one.

The third player has to confirm if - nothing at all was said, or if
something was said, what it was, if something was said and he can't
remember, then why can't he remember?
The third player could end up in the uncomfotable position of having
to say he heard something, but it wasn't what was claimed to have been
said. If he claims that Vaughan said something totally different, then
Vaughan should be able to confirm this easily. If Vaughan claims he
said something else then why hasn't he said what it is he really did
say?

max.it

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On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:55:14 +0000, Brian Lawrence
<Brian_W_Lawrence@msn.com> wrote:

>On 09/11/2021 06:45, jack fredricks wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:43:56 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
>>>> And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
>>>>
>>>> Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.
>>> I'm not a fan of his broadcasting. I would all the same, like to know
>>> if anyone was with him or near him when the alleged incident happened,
>>> or if he can't remember it happening at all.
>>> max.it
>>
>> Rana Naved?
>
>I think the alleged comments were made during a county game in 2009 - I
>seem to recall reading that somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but
>Vaughan and Rafiq only played together in two matches in 2009, the first
>two matches that Rafiq played. The first was a home match at Headingley
>vs Sussex, starting 6 June, and the 2nd was away at Worcester, starting
>16 June. Naved-ul-Hasan only played in the first match, although he
>might have been at Worcester without playing.
>
>Others who could potentially have overheard the alleged comments in
>those two games included Rudolph, Sayers, McGrath, Gale, Brophy,
>Bresnan, Wainwright, Kruis, Bairstow, Shahzad & Hoggard.
>
>Other Yorks squad members who also played in 2009 were:
>
>Lee, Lyth, Patterson, Pyrah & Adil Rashid.
>

"Vaughan said that the comments were alleged to have been made in 2009
while he was still a player at Yorkshire before a match against
Nottinghamshire."

max.it

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On Tuesday, 9 November 2021 at 11:55:32 UTC, max.it wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:55:14 +0000, Brian Lawrence
> <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >On 09/11/2021 06:45, jack fredricks wrote:
> >
> >> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:43:56 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> >>>> And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.
> >>> I'm not a fan of his broadcasting. I would all the same, like to know
> >>> if anyone was with him or near him when the alleged incident happened,
> >>> or if he can't remember it happening at all.
> >>> max.it
> >>
> >> Rana Naved?
> >
> >I think the alleged comments were made during a county game in 2009 - I
> >seem to recall reading that somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but
> >Vaughan and Rafiq only played together in two matches in 2009, the first
> >two matches that Rafiq played. The first was a home match at Headingley
> >vs Sussex, starting 6 June, and the 2nd was away at Worcester, starting
> >16 June. Naved-ul-Hasan only played in the first match, although he
> >might have been at Worcester without playing.
> >
> >Others who could potentially have overheard the alleged comments in
> >those two games included Rudolph, Sayers, McGrath, Gale, Brophy,
> >Bresnan, Wainwright, Kruis, Bairstow, Shahzad & Hoggard.
> >
> >Other Yorks squad members who also played in 2009 were:
> >
> >Lee, Lyth, Patterson, Pyrah & Adil Rashid.
> >
> "Vaughan said that the comments were alleged to have been made in 2009
> while he was still a player at Yorkshire before a match against
> Nottinghamshire."

Yorks played 5 matches against Notts in 2009 - 2 T20, 2 CC and one Pro40, but the only one that both Vaughan and Rafiq played in was the T20 at TB on 22nd June. The other Yorks players in that match were Gale, Naved-ul-Hasan, Rudolph, Brophy, Bresnan, Shahzad, Lyth, Rashid and Kruis.
--
David North

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 05:54:15 -0800 (PST), David North
<nospam@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>On Tuesday, 9 November 2021 at 11:55:32 UTC, max.it wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:55:14 +0000, Brian Lawrence
>> <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On 09/11/2021 06:45, jack fredricks wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:43:56 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
>> >>>> And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.
>> >>> I'm not a fan of his broadcasting. I would all the same, like to know
>> >>> if anyone was with him or near him when the alleged incident happened,
>> >>> or if he can't remember it happening at all.
>> >>> max.it
>> >>
>> >> Rana Naved?
>> >
>> >I think the alleged comments were made during a county game in 2009 - I
>> >seem to recall reading that somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but
>> >Vaughan and Rafiq only played together in two matches in 2009, the first
>> >two matches that Rafiq played. The first was a home match at Headingley
>> >vs Sussex, starting 6 June, and the 2nd was away at Worcester, starting
>> >16 June. Naved-ul-Hasan only played in the first match, although he
>> >might have been at Worcester without playing.
>> >
>> >Others who could potentially have overheard the alleged comments in
>> >those two games included Rudolph, Sayers, McGrath, Gale, Brophy,
>> >Bresnan, Wainwright, Kruis, Bairstow, Shahzad & Hoggard.
>> >
>> >Other Yorks squad members who also played in 2009 were:
>> >
>> >Lee, Lyth, Patterson, Pyrah & Adil Rashid.
>> >
>> "Vaughan said that the comments were alleged to have been made in 2009
>> while he was still a player at Yorkshire before a match against
>> Nottinghamshire."
>
>Yorks played 5 matches against Notts in 2009 - 2 T20, 2 CC and one Pro40, but the only one that both Vaughan and Rafiq played in was the T20 at TB on 22nd June. The other Yorks players in that match were Gale, Naved-ul-Hasan, Rudolph, Brophy, Bresnan, Shahzad, Lyth, Rashid and Kruis.

Does it say anywhere if Rafiq was actually playing? A home match might
have had players present at the game but not playing.
I could be wrong but didn't the initial report say that Rafiq was with
other Asian players when it happened?

max.it

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On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:54:17 +0000, max.it <max@tea.time> wrote:

>At the very beginning I thought that Rafiq must have been a twat and
>attracted 'unfortunate' reactions and behaviour from people, and that
>he was just bitter. I reckon I was wrong.
>
>Not hearing what was said isn't the same as saying it didn't happen.
>It proves that Vaughan was present, so he can't claim the actual event
>never happened; he can only dispute what was said.

My guess is that he said it in a tactless attempt at humour. I don't
think Vaughan's a committed racist like the moron and his new
girlfriend Pamela.

It's wrong to focus on whether this player or that player made
whatever remark, though. The problem was that the culture around the
club was such that they didn't instinctively know it was wrong to make
that kind of comment. And that points the finger squarely at the team
management.

Cheers,

Mike

In message <ca954fe2-14db-4cf1-adcf-0c0269668400n@googlegroups.com>,
David North <nospam@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>On Tuesday, 9 November 2021 at 11:55:32 UTC, max.it wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:55:14 +0000, Brian Lawrence
>> <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On 09/11/2021 06:45, jack fredricks wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:43:56 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
>> >>>> And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the
>> >>>>man's a prick.
>> >>> I'm not a fan of his broadcasting. I would all the same, like to know
>> >>> if anyone was with him or near him when the alleged incident happened,
>> >>> or if he can't remember it happening at all.
>> >>> max.it
>> >>
>> >> Rana Naved?
>> >
>> >I think the alleged comments were made during a county game in 2009 - I
>> >seem to recall reading that somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but
>> >Vaughan and Rafiq only played together in two matches in 2009, the first
>> >two matches that Rafiq played. The first was a home match at Headingley
>> >vs Sussex, starting 6 June, and the 2nd was away at Worcester, starting
>> >16 June. Naved-ul-Hasan only played in the first match, although he
>> >might have been at Worcester without playing.
>> >
>> >Others who could potentially have overheard the alleged comments in
>> >those two games included Rudolph, Sayers, McGrath, Gale, Brophy,
>> >Bresnan, Wainwright, Kruis, Bairstow, Shahzad & Hoggard.
>> >
>> >Other Yorks squad members who also played in 2009 were:
>> >
>> >Lee, Lyth, Patterson, Pyrah & Adil Rashid.
>> >
>> "Vaughan said that the comments were alleged to have been made in 2009
>> while he was still a player at Yorkshire before a match against
>> Nottinghamshire."
>
>Yorks played 5 matches against Notts in 2009 - 2 T20, 2 CC and one
>Pro40, but the only one that both Vaughan and Rafiq played in was the
>T20 at TB on 22nd June. The other Yorks players in that match were
>Gale, Naved-ul-Hasan, Rudolph, Brophy, Bresnan, Shahzad, Lyth, Rashid
>and Kruis.

That would fit, since IIRC Rafiq said that the others in the group of
three Muslim players that Vaughan spoke to were Naved and Shahzad. Naved
says he heard Vaughan say what he is accused of saying, but Shahzad
denies having heard him say it.

It may be worth mentioning that in the last few days Monty Panesar has
said that when Vaughan was his England captain he gave him nothing but
encouragement.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

In message <1r8logh48hbtr8pcofpqb4ieqg5fuhjei8@4ax.com>, Mike Holmans
<spam@jackalope.uk> writes
>It's wrong to focus on whether this player or that player made whatever
>remark, though. The problem was that the culture around the club was
>such that they didn't instinctively know it was wrong to make that kind
>of comment. And that points the finger squarely at the team management.

Agreed. And Hutton has pretty well said as much.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:43:48 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

>On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:54:17 +0000, max.it <max@tea.time> wrote:
>
>
>>At the very beginning I thought that Rafiq must have been a twat and
>>attracted 'unfortunate' reactions and behaviour from people, and that
>>he was just bitter. I reckon I was wrong.
>>
>>Not hearing what was said isn't the same as saying it didn't happen.
>>It proves that Vaughan was present, so he can't claim the actual event
>>never happened; he can only dispute what was said.
>
>My guess is that he said it in a tactless attempt at humour. I don't
>think Vaughan's a committed racist like the moron and his new
>girlfriend Pamela.

That is very likely what happened.
Are you saying 'he's getting a hand from pam'?

>It's wrong to focus on whether this player or that player made
>whatever remark, though. The problem was that the culture around the
>club was such that they didn't instinctively know it was wrong to make
>that kind of comment. And that points the finger squarely at the team
>management.

The club has a huge responsibility to set standards and make sure
they are upheld,but I'd expect personal standards to be higher and
personal awareness greater. Are we not all supposed to be able to show
empathy through our emotional intelligence?

Right enough some people are totally unaware that remarks they make
are offensive and sometimes the remarks are deliberate.
An EU spokesman said recently about the NI protocol. 'EU is prepared
for peace but ready for war'. Why on earth did he choose those words?
https://histperspectives.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/glenbryne.jpg

max.it

>Cheers,
>
>Mike

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On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 9:45:37 PM UTC, richsdi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 5 November 2021 at 09:02:39 UTC, RH wrote:
>
> > Vaughan has stated unequivocally that he did not say what he is alleged to have said so it is basically his word against the accuser. RH
> And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
>
> Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.

All Vaughan needs to do is show one of the accusers is either lying or has forgotten an incident.,.. RH

On Tuesday, 9 November 2021 at 10:36:53 UTC, RH wrote:

> > Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.
> Very pc Dixon displays his pc viciousness ... RH

Where have I said anything about his racism here, pray tell?

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 8:44:33 PM UTC+10, John Hall wrote:
> >And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
> But the other Muslim (I can't remember his name) who was supposedly
> present has said that he didn't hear the alleged remark. So that's two v
> two.

Isn't there a big difference between "I recall it happening" and "I don't recall hearing it"? Surely the latter aren't also saying "I recall every word perfectly and assure you it WASN'T said".
If someone said that last bit, I'd call them a liar.

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:43:51 AM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> My guess is that he said it in a tactless attempt at humour. I don't
> think Vaughan's a committed racist like the moron and his new
> girlfriend Pamela.

I mostly agree.

> It's wrong to focus on whether this player or that player made
> whatever remark, though. The problem was that the culture around the
> club was such that they didn't instinctively know it was wrong to make
> that kind of comment. And that points the finger squarely at the team
> management.

I mostly agree.

I know things are a tad different here in Aus. Paki can be used both as in insult and as a term of endearment. The Pakis I play with all call themselves Pakis.

I don't think Vaughan is racist. I think he, and the club, are stupid for using/allowing that term in a *professional* setting. They should have known better.
Grossly stupid.

They've made it worse by sweeping it all under the carpet. Their PR team should be shot out of a cannon.

On Tuesday, 9 November 2021 at 15:01:34 UTC, max.it wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 05:54:15 -0800 (PST), David North
> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, 9 November 2021 at 11:55:32 UTC, max.it wrote:
> >> On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:55:14 +0000, Brian Lawrence
> >> <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 09/11/2021 06:45, jack fredricks wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:43:56 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> >> >>>> And Rana Naved, who also heard it.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Will be delighted to see the end of Vaughan in the media, the man's a prick.
> >> >>> I'm not a fan of his broadcasting. I would all the same, like to know
> >> >>> if anyone was with him or near him when the alleged incident happened,
> >> >>> or if he can't remember it happening at all.
> >> >>> max.it
> >> >>
> >> >> Rana Naved?
> >> >
> >> >I think the alleged comments were made during a county game in 2009 - I
> >> >seem to recall reading that somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but
> >> >Vaughan and Rafiq only played together in two matches in 2009, the first
> >> >two matches that Rafiq played. The first was a home match at Headingley
> >> >vs Sussex, starting 6 June, and the 2nd was away at Worcester, starting
> >> >16 June. Naved-ul-Hasan only played in the first match, although he
> >> >might have been at Worcester without playing.
> >> >
> >> >Others who could potentially have overheard the alleged comments in
> >> >those two games included Rudolph, Sayers, McGrath, Gale, Brophy,
> >> >Bresnan, Wainwright, Kruis, Bairstow, Shahzad & Hoggard.
> >> >
> >> >Other Yorks squad members who also played in 2009 were:
> >> >
> >> >Lee, Lyth, Patterson, Pyrah & Adil Rashid.
> >> >
> >> "Vaughan said that the comments were alleged to have been made in 2009
> >> while he was still a player at Yorkshire before a match against
> >> Nottinghamshire."
> >
> >Yorks played 5 matches against Notts in 2009 - 2 T20, 2 CC and one Pro40, but the only one that both Vaughan and Rafiq played in was the T20 at TB on 22nd June. The other Yorks players in that match were Gale, Naved-ul-Hasan, Rudolph, Brophy, Bresnan, Shahzad, Lyth, Rashid and Kruis.
> Does it say anywhere if Rafiq was actually playing?

Not that I've seen.

> A home match might
> have had players present at the game but not playing.

They'd have at least a 12th man at an away game as well. Of course, it would be much more difficult to identify matches where a player was present but not in the XI, unless he took a catch or ran someone out as a sub. Equally it would be difficult to identify matches where he was absent, unless he was playing somewhere else at the same time.

> I could be wrong but didn't the initial report say that Rafiq was with
> other Asian players when it happened?

Yes, the BBC report that you linked to said that he is alleged to have made the remark to "a group of Asian players".
--
David North

On Tuesday, 9 November 2021 at 16:43:51 UTC, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:54:17 +0000, max.it <m...@tea.time> wrote:
>
>
> >At the very beginning I thought that Rafiq must have been a twat and
> >attracted 'unfortunate' reactions and behaviour from people, and that
> >he was just bitter. I reckon I was wrong.
> >
> >Not hearing what was said isn't the same as saying it didn't happen.
> >It proves that Vaughan was present, so he can't claim the actual event
> >never happened; he can only dispute what was said.
> My guess is that he said it in a tactless attempt at humour.

Agreed, and if it was laughed off at the time, that might well explain why he and others who were present might not remember him saying it 12 years later.

--
David North