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aus+uk / uk.sport.cricket / Re: "English" county cricket

SubjectAuthor
* Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
`* Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
 `* Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
  `* Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
   `* Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    +* Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    |`* Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | +* Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | |`* Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +* Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | |`- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +* Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | |`* Re: "English" county cricketPamela
    | | | `- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | `- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | +* Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | |`* Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRH
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +* Re: "English" county cricketHamish Laws
    | | |`- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | +* Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | |`* Re: "English" county cricketalvey
    | | | +* Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | | |`- Re: "English" county cricketalvey
    | | | `- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | | +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    | | `- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    | `* Re: "English" county cricketHamish Laws
    |  +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    |  `* Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    |   +- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    |   +- Re: "English" county cricketRodney Ulyate
    |   `- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks
    `- Re: "English" county cricketjack fredricks

Pages:1234
Re: "English" county cricket

<f582a498-142f-404c-ad59-374b484f337bn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:22 UTC

On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 at 09:43:49 UTC+2, Mike Holmans wrote:
> The subject of Trump's Russian connections is the subject of a huge
> on-going investigation by a special counsel, not to mention at least
> four US Congressional investigations.

Brought back here by a Google search, I can't resist asking: How did *that* work out?

It's really gratifying, with the collapse of Russiagate and the Steele dossier, to read over all this and see how right I was.

And really curious to find that my scepticism about this conspiracy theory got me labelled a conspiracy theorist. What a time to be alive.

Rodney

Re: "English" county cricket

<fa45c8cd-b9d4-4bb5-8be8-fbd23a72cb72n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:36 UTC

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 4:22:21 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 at 09:43:49 UTC+2, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > The subject of Trump's Russian connections is the subject of a huge
> > on-going investigation by a special counsel, not to mention at least
> > four US Congressional investigations.
>
> Brought back here by a Google search, I can't resist asking: How did *that* work out?
>
> It's really gratifying, with the collapse of Russiagate and the Steele dossier, to read over all this and see how right I was.
>
> And really curious to find that my scepticism about this conspiracy theory got me labelled a conspiracy theorist. What a time to be alive.

Has there been a collapse of the Steele dossier?

Re: "English" county cricket

<b6b3ed71-1080-41f7-bd85-41a44a9bdf3en@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:28 UTC

On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 23:36:48 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> Has there been a collapse of the Steele dossier?

I'd say so, yes -- especially since the only people charged in connection with it are its sources:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59168626
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/04/us/politics/igor-danchenko-arrested-steele-dossier.html

Russiagate was liberal cope: a means of absolving the Democratic Party from responsibility for its 2016 defeat. To be fair to those of you (all of you) who bought it, conspiracy theories are always more titillating than serious material analysis. That's why they call antisemitism the socialism of fools.

Rodney

Re: "English" county cricket

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:26 UTC

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 7:28:52 PM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 23:36:48 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Has there been a collapse of the Steele dossier?
> I'd say so, yes -- especially since the only people charged in connection with it are its sources:

Do you know what lie Danchenko is alleged to have made?
Surely without that info one can't make any claims about the veracity of the of the Steele Doss.

For example it might have been a lie about his whereabouts on a certain date.
Or what communication methods he'd used.
Or, you know... anything.

> Russiagate was liberal cope: a means of absolving the Democratic Party from responsibility for its 2016 defeat. To be fair to those of you (all of you) who bought it, conspiracy theories are always more titillating than serious material analysis. That's why they call antisemitism the socialism of fools.

Some elements of RG have been disproved.
Some elements of RG have been proved.
The key element, namely Did Trump or his team knowingly conspire with Russia, has not yet been proven.
When you commit a crime, do your best to hide it.
Michael Flynn pleaded guilt to lying about his Russian contacts.
Same goes for Papadopoulos.
Same goes for Stone (found guilty, not pleaded).

Re: "English" county cricket

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:57 UTC

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 12:26:55 PM UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 7:28:52 PM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 23:36:48 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Has there been a collapse of the Steele dossier?
> > I'd say so, yes -- especially since the only people charged in connection with it are its sources:
> Do you know what lie Danchenko is alleged to have made?

You could read the indictment, you know. The stuff about him perambulating the Bronx Zoo when he's supposed to be meeting with Millian is pretty great..

> Surely without that info one can't make any claims about the veracity of the of the Steele Doss.

We've had no supporting evidence for any of its central claims. We've been waiting almost half a decade. The Mueller Report rejected it. The Washington Post and The New York Times are retracting reportage based upon it. *Steele himself* now acknowledges that "not everything in the dossier is 100% accurate." A Democratic-controlled Justice Department is prosecuting his primary source.

Couple this with the self-evident absurdity of his thesis -- that the President of the United States was a Russian plant/stooge/puppet -- and yes, I'm more than happy to call bullshit.

A moment's thought suffices: If Trump were a Russian plant/stooge/puppet, why, for example, did he withdraw from INF Treaty, in the face of Putin's demand for an unconditional renewal? Why did the United States under Trump's command send to Europe (including the Russian border, against Russian protests) its largest deployment in more than a quarter-century?

Was it part of Russia's diabolical plan to make the more likely its own extinction?

> For example it might have been a lie about his whereabouts on a certain date.

Again, see the stuff about the Bronx Zoo. There's also the "fabrication of the fact of [a] meeting" with "a GOP friend." And much else.

> Or what communication methods he'd used.

Email, mostly. In one of them, to Dolan, Danchenko says he's after any "thought, rumor, allegation" that might assist in a "project against Trump."

> Or, you know... anything.

You'd be able to answer your question if you'd done the barest reading.

<snip cope>

Rodney

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Thu, 18 Nov 2021 21:21 UTC

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 2:57:09 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> Couple this with the self-evident absurdity of his thesis -- that the President of the United States was a Russian plant/stooge/puppet -- and yes, I'm more than happy to call bullshit.

I will snip the rest until you attempt to have an good-faith discussion. I believe I've said this to you before....

Please allow me to quote Wikipedia, which I trust is a decent summary of the SD;

"The dossier describes two different Russian operations. The first was an attempt, lasting many years, to find ways to influence Trump, probably not so much "to make Mr. Trump a knowing agent of Russia", but most likely to make him a source the Russians could use. This operation utilized kompromat (Russian: short for "compromising material") and proposals of business deals.. The second operation was very recent and involved contacts with Trump's representatives during the campaign to discuss the hacking of the DNC and Podesta"

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Thu, 18 Nov 2021 21:35 UTC

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 2:57:09 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 12:26:55 PM UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Do you know what lie Danchenko is alleged to have made?
> You could read the indictment, you know.

Is that a yes?

https://www.justice.gov/sco/press-release/file/1446386/download

alleged lies;
1. he said he'd not communicated with someone, when he had (by sending them a copy of the completed report)
2. said he got some info in the SD from a tip-off phone call. No phone call was received.

Whilst lying to the FBI is certainly a crime, these lies told by him don't cause the collapse of the SD.
The first lie was around events AFTER the completion of the SD, so can in no way impact on the report's veracity.
The second lie looks to me like someone in the intelligence field lying to protect sources. I'm not shocked.

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:36 UTC

On Thursday, 18 November 2021 at 23:21:39 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 2:57:09 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > Couple this with the self-evident absurdity of his thesis -- that the President of the United States was a Russian plant/stooge/puppet -- and yes, I'm more than happy to call bullshit.
> I will snip the rest until you attempt to have an good-faith discussion.

"The rest," conveniently, includes my point about the basic incoherence of Russiagate. "Conveniently," because it seems unanswerable: Trump, who did more than any post-Cold War President to exacerbate tensions with Moscow, is supposed to have been Moscow's man.† Care to square the circle?

Nor do you address, or even acknowledge, the five points which precede "the rest" you say you find insincere:

1 "We've had no supporting evidence for any of its central claims. We've been waiting almost half a decade."
2. "The Mueller Report rejected it."
3. "The Washington Post and The New York Times are retracting reportage based upon it."
4. "*Steele himself* now acknowledges that 'not everything in the dossier is 100% accurate.'"
5. "A Democratic-controlled Justice Department is prosecuting his primary source."

You might try to fulfill the opposite burden: Gimme one good reason to take this thing seriously. Until I get it, I'll continue to assume that you're clinging to it as a coping mechanism.

Rodney

† There's nothing disingenuous about this point, but you raise awkward questions about the goodness of your own faith when you decline even to read the material you're interrogating me about. This will suffice as a response to your other post, in which you reveal that you *still* haven't looked at the indictment.

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Fri, 19 Nov 2021 09:35 UTC

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 6:36:42 PM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> "The rest," conveniently, includes my point about the basic incoherence of Russiagate.

Based on your summary of his thesis, quoted in my first reply, I can only assume you find RG incoherent because what you're really talking about is all of the media spin around the SD.
Fair enough. Perhaps that's what RG has become. I just think it's unfair on Steele to do that.
To my knowledge nothing in the SD has been proven to be false.
OTOH, some parts have been proven, or at least widely accepted, to be true - namely Russian interference in the 2016 election (nb I've made no mention of conspiracy here).

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Fri, 19 Nov 2021 21:00 UTC

On Friday, 19 November 2021 at 11:35:02 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> To my knowledge nothing in the SD has been proven to be false.
> OTOH, some parts have been proven, or at least widely accepted, to be true - namely Russian interference in the 2016 election (nb I've made no mention of conspiracy here).

Compare the standards in the two paragraphs I've quoted. The first requires proof of a negative. I don't need to invoke Bertrand Russell to remind you how difficult this is: How does one prove that something *didn't* happen? For the most part one does not, because one *cannot*, which is why the evidential burden rests with those who make positive claims about the world. If they fail to discharge this burden, their claims are properly rejected.

But you reverse this standard in your second paragraph, dealing with SD's positive claims: Suddenly "proof" is supplemented with "widely accepted."

What's going on here?

Rodney

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Fri, 19 Nov 2021 22:48 UTC

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 7:00:48 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> What's going on here?

Some realism.

Alexander Litvinenko was murdered by the FSB in an operation either approved by Putin or directly ordered by him.

Prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

It's very difficulty to prove a foreign intelligence agency has done *anything*. Secrets are their business.
Steele has said, and everyone who matters known, from the very beginning that proving the claims in the SD would be near-impossible.

Do YOU accept as fact that Russia tried to interfere in the 2016 US election to help get Trump elected?
If you say yes - what more is there to discuss?
If you say no - what more is there to discuss?

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 08:50 UTC

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 4:43:15 PM UTC+10, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:
> “The first thing we all agree on is that irrespective of efforts that
> were made in 2016 by foreign powers, it is the universal conclusion of
> our intelligence communities that none of those efforts had any effect
> on the outcome of the 2016 election.”
> — Vice President Pence, in an interview with Mike Allen of Axios, Feb.
> 14, 2018

That might be the dumbest thing you've said (as a quote). Which is quite impressive.

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 08:58 UTC

On Saturday, 20 November 2021 at 00:48:34 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 7:00:48 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > What's going on here?
> Some realism.
> Alexander Litvinenko was murdered by the FSB in an operation either approved by Putin or directly ordered by him.
> Prove it beyond reasonable doubt.
> It's very difficulty to prove a foreign intelligence agency has done *anything*.

Still easier than proving a negative. See Russell's orbiting teacup.

There are, broadly speaking, two possible reasons for the difficulty you describe:

(1) They covered their tracks well.
(2) They didn't do it.

Given the existence of (2), (1) furnishes no grounds for relaxing one's standards. On the contrary, it makes even more imperative the duty to do your homework. Otherwise your logic degenerates into something like this:

They *might* have done it;
∴ they *must* have it.

> Secrets are their business.
> Steele has said, and everyone who matters known, from the very beginning that proving the claims in the SD would be near-impossible.

He can't meet the standard even of a balance of probabilities. What is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is trite.

> Do YOU accept as fact that Russia tried to interfere in the 2016 US election to help get Trump elected?

I accept that the Internet Research Agency (IRA), a Russian private company (not, mark you, an arm of the Russian state) bought a few thousands dollars' worth of social-media advertising, and that these included a smattering of content pertaining to the 2016 election.

But only a smattering -- i.e. "11% of the total content [...]. Roughly 6% of tweets, 18% of Instagram posts, and 7% of Facebook posts" even mentioned Trump or Clinton.

Which is why those two famous reports, from New Knowledge and Oxford's Computational Propaganda Research Project, find it so difficult to justify their conclusions. New Knowledge gives the game away when it declares that to evaluate IRA material "purely based on whether it definitively swung the election is too narrow a focus," for the rather telling reason that "explicitly political content was a small percentage."

It's all a very bad joke. And it looks more and more desperate every day.

Rodney

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:05 UTC

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 6:58:54 PM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> They *might* have done it;
> ∴ they *must* have it.

reductio ad absurdum
Plenty of other evidence to fall back on. In this case Steele's reputation and the countless (poetic license) convictions of Trump campaign team for stuff like, you know, lying about Russian gov contacts.

> > Do YOU accept as fact that Russia tried to interfere in the 2016 US election to help get Trump elected?
> I accept that the Internet Research Agency (IRA), a Russian private company (not, mark you, an arm of the Russian state) bought a few thousands dollars' worth of social-media advertising, and that these included a smattering of content pertaining to the 2016 election.

What about Mueller's findings?

It's pointless discussing this with you. Shock!

The GOP's own report, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_presidential_election, found Russian interference was widespread.

I can't tell if you're a Russian shill, or a Trump shill. Maybe both?

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:56 UTC

On Saturday, 20 November 2021 at 12:05:04 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 6:58:54 PM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > They *might* have done it;
> > ∴ they *must* have it.
> reductio ad absurdum
> Plenty of other evidence to fall back on. In this case Steele's reputation

What reputation? Neither you nor I had heard of him before his name appeared in this connection. Perhaps you mean his reputation as a spook? If so, what happened to your conviction, in the case of his Russian equivalents, that his class is unrivalled in the art of deception? Oh, and having a "reputation" is no proof that what you say is true.

> and the countless (poetic license) convictions of Trump campaign team for stuff like, you know, lying about Russian gov contacts.

Meeting a Russian doesn't make you a Russian stooge. The perception that it does might go some way to explaining why they would lie about it.

> > > Do YOU accept as fact that Russia tried to interfere in the 2016 US election to help get Trump elected?
> > I accept that the Internet Research Agency (IRA), a Russian private company (not, mark you, an arm of the Russian state) bought a few thousands dollars' worth of social-media advertising, and that these included a smattering of content pertaining to the 2016 election.
> What about Mueller's findings?

What "findings"? What did he add to the picture? I don't mean his conclusions -- "sweeping and systemic" is an awful reach, given the above -- but his revelations and discoveries.

> It's pointless discussing this with you. Shock!
> The GOP's own report, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_presidential_election, found Russian interference was widespread.

No. That was its conclusion. As I've just shown, conclusions and findings are very different things.

> I can't tell if you're a Russian shill, or a Trump shill. Maybe both?

Both. I'm being paid by both. That's how deep this goes.

2016 needs no conspiracy for its explanation. Trump is as American as apple pie: a celebrity operating in a celebrity culture; an adipose septuagenarian whose brain (like your own, apparently) has been broken by cable news; a faux populist who arrived at a moment of alienation and despair, and whose opponent was the most unpopular candidate in her party's history.

What could be more predictable than the upshot? I speak, as you know, as someone who predicted it -- on this very platform, incidentally, in a debate with Holmanulus. I only wish I'd been less tentative.

Rodney

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:01 UTC

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 8:56:33 PM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> On Saturday, 20 November 2021 at 12:05:04 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 6:58:54 PM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > > They *might* have done it;
> > > ∴ they *must* have it.
> > reductio ad absurdum
> > Plenty of other evidence to fall back on. In this case Steele's reputation
> What reputation? Neither you nor I had heard of him before his name appeared in this connection.

So fucking what?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Steele

I'm done with you. Why don't you run away for another 6 months?

Re: "English" county cricket

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:49 UTC

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 10:01:02 PM UTC+10, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 8:56:33 PM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > On Saturday, 20 November 2021 at 12:05:04 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 6:58:54 PM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > > > They *might* have done it;
> > > > ∴ they *must* have it.
> > > reductio ad absurdum
> > > Plenty of other evidence to fall back on. In this case Steele's reputation
> > What reputation? Neither you nor I had heard of him before his name appeared in this connection.
> So fucking what?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Steele
>
> I'm done with you. Why don't you run away for another 6 months?

In case it's not clear why I'm done with you. It's these absurd arguments you put forward.
Just because *I* hadn't heard of Steele (prior to the SD) doesn't mean he didn't have a worthy reputation.
After I'd heard of him, I looked into his credentials.

I again state; not a thing in the SD has been disproven, whereas some things have been proven. Impressive, considering its nature.

Re: "English" county cricket

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 15:06:57 GMT
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 by: Pamela - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 15:06 UTC

On 08:58 20 Nov 2021, Rodney Ulyate said:

> On Saturday, 20 November 2021 at 00:48:34 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 7:00:48 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate
>> wrote:
>
>> > What's going on here?
>> Some realism.
>> Alexander Litvinenko was murdered by the FSB in an operation either
>> appro
> ved by Putin or directly ordered by him.
>> Prove it beyond reasonable doubt.
>> It's very difficulty to prove a foreign intelligence agency has
>> done *any
> thing*.
>
> Still easier than proving a negative. See Russell's orbiting teacup.
>
> There are, broadly speaking, two possible reasons for the difficulty
> you describe:
>
> (1) They covered their tracks well.
> (2) They didn't do it.
>
> Given the existence of (2), (1) furnishes no grounds for relaxing
> one's standards. On the contrary, it makes even more imperative the
> duty to do your homework. Otherwise your logic degenerates into
> something like this:
>
> They *might* have done it;
> ∴ they *must* have it.
>
>> Secrets are their business.
>> Steele has said, and everyone who matters known, from the very
>> beginning that proving the claims in the SD would be
>> near-impossible.
>
> He can't meet the standard even of a balance of probabilities. What
> is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.
> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is trite.
>
>> Do YOU accept as fact that Russia tried to interfere in the 2016 US
>> elect ion to help get Trump elected?
>
> I accept that the Internet Research Agency (IRA), a Russian private
> company (not, mark you, an arm of the Russian state) bought a few
> thousands dollars' worth of social-media advertising, and that these
> included a smattering of content pertaining to the 2016 election.
>
> But only a smattering -- i.e. "11% of the total content [...].
> Roughly 6% of tweets, 18% of Instagram posts, and 7% of Facebook
> posts" even mentioned Trump or Clinton.
>
> Which is why those two famous reports, from New Knowledge and
> Oxford's Computational Propaganda Research Project, find it so
> difficult to justify their conclusions. New Knowledge gives the game
> away when it declares that to evaluate IRA material "purely based on
> whether it definitively swung the election is too narrow a focus,"
> for the rather telling reason that "explicitly political content was
> a small percentage."
>
> It's all a very bad joke. And it looks more and more desperate every
> day.
>
> Rodney

Don't Russian shills have better things to do these days?

Re: "English" county cricket

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 20:29 UTC

On Saturday, 20 November 2021 at 14:49:31 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> In case it's not clear why I'm done with you.

Oh no. It's perfectly clear, despite the protestations that followed.

> It's these absurd arguments you put forward.

Including, presumably, the ones you left unaddressed: that is to say, most of them.

Rodney

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 20:30 UTC

On Saturday, 20 November 2021 at 17:07:33 UTC+2, Pamela wrote:
> Don't Russian shills have better things to do these days?

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But I only do as Vlad instructs.

Rodney

Re: "English" county cricket

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 20:55 UTC

On Friday, 19 November 2021 at 10:36:42 UTC+2, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
[...]
> "The rest," conveniently, includes my point about the basic incoherence of Russiagate. "Conveniently," because it seems unanswerable: Trump, who did more than any post-Cold War President to exacerbate tensions with Moscow, is supposed to have been Moscow's man.† Care to square the circle?

I note with complacency that you never.

> Nor do you address, or even acknowledge, the five points which precede "the rest" you say you find insincere:
> 1 "We've had no supporting evidence for any of its central claims. We've been waiting almost half a decade."
> 2. "The Mueller Report rejected it."
> 3. "The Washington Post and The New York Times are retracting reportage based upon it."
> 4. "*Steele himself* now acknowledges that 'not everything in the dossier is 100% accurate.'"
> 5. "A Democratic-controlled Justice Department is prosecuting his primary source."

These, too, remain unacknowledged and unaddressed. Whoopsie.

Rodney

Re: "English" county cricket

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 20:56 UTC

On Friday, 19 November 2021 at 10:36:42 UTC+2, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 November 2021 at 23:21:39 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 2:57:09 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > > Couple this with the self-evident absurdity of his thesis -- that the President of the United States was a Russian plant/stooge/puppet -- and yes, I'm more than happy to call bullshit.
> > I will snip the rest until you attempt to have an good-faith discussion..
> "The rest," conveniently, includes my point about the basic incoherence of Russiagate. "Conveniently," because it seems unanswerable: Trump, who did more than any post-Cold War President to exacerbate tensions with Moscow, is supposed to have been Moscow's man.† Care to square the circle?

I note with complacency that you never did.

> Nor do you address, or even acknowledge, the five points which precede "the rest" you say you find insincere:
>
> 1 "We've had no supporting evidence for any of its central claims. We've been waiting almost half a decade."
> 2. "The Mueller Report rejected it."
> 3. "The Washington Post and The New York Times are retracting reportage based upon it."
> 4. "*Steele himself* now acknowledges that 'not everything in the dossier is 100% accurate.'"
> 5. "A Democratic-controlled Justice Department is prosecuting his primary source."

These, too, remain unacknowledged and unaddressed. Whoopsie.

Rodney

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 21:31 UTC

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 6:56:10 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> On Friday, 19 November 2021 at 10:36:42 UTC+2, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > On Thursday, 18 November 2021 at 23:21:39 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 2:57:09 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > > > Couple this with the self-evident absurdity of his thesis -- that the President of the United States was a Russian plant/stooge/puppet -- and yes, I'm more than happy to call bullshit.
> > > I will snip the rest until you attempt to have an good-faith discussion.
> > "The rest," conveniently, includes my point about the basic incoherence of Russiagate. "Conveniently," because it seems unanswerable: Trump, who did more than any post-Cold War President to exacerbate tensions with Moscow, is supposed to have been Moscow's man.† Care to square the circle?
> I note with complacency that you never did.
> > Nor do you address, or even acknowledge, the five points which precede "the rest" you say you find insincere:
> >
> > 1 "We've had no supporting evidence for any of its central claims. We've been waiting almost half a decade."

You've demonstrated that you don't even know what the central claims are.

> > 2. "The Mueller Report rejected it."

Rejected what?

> > 3. "The Washington Post and The New York Times are retracting reportage based upon it."

So?

> > 4. "*Steele himself* now acknowledges that 'not everything in the dossier is 100% accurate.'"

He's also being realistic. 100% is a very high bar to set.

> > 5. "A Democratic-controlled Justice Department is prosecuting his primary source."

Another of your shit arguments. Durham was appointed by Barr, and the Dems are letting him do his job (as they should).

Re: "English" county cricket

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: rodney.u...@gmail.com (Rodney Ulyate)
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 by: Rodney Ulyate - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 22:00 UTC

On Saturday, 20 November 2021 at 23:31:51 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 6:56:10 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > On Friday, 19 November 2021 at 10:36:42 UTC+2, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 18 November 2021 at 23:21:39 UTC+2, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 2:57:09 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > > > > Couple this with the self-evident absurdity of his thesis -- that the President of the United States was a Russian plant/stooge/puppet -- and yes, I'm more than happy to call bullshit.
> > > > I will snip the rest until you attempt to have an good-faith discussion.
> > > "The rest," conveniently, includes my point about the basic incoherence of Russiagate. "Conveniently," because it seems unanswerable: Trump, who did more than any post-Cold War President to exacerbate tensions with Moscow, is supposed to have been Moscow's man.† Care to square the circle?
> > I note with complacency that you never did.
> > > Nor do you address, or even acknowledge, the five points which precede "the rest" you say you find insincere:
> > > 1 "We've had no supporting evidence for any of its central claims. We've been waiting almost half a decade."
> You've demonstrated that you don't even know what the central claims are.

Actually, that's what you've done. You've cited it as a source for the Russian-interference narrative, when as any fule kno it's all about the Trump/Russia-collusion narrative.

> > > 2. "The Mueller Report rejected it."
> Rejected what?

Its collusion narrative, and the "evidence" it deploys to bolster that narrative.

I've always found Paul Gregory's thesis -- that the Steele dossier is itself Russian disinformation -- the most plausible allegation of its kind. It makes sense of the falsity and the unverifiability of so many of its claims. Steele himself says that a number of his sources were very close to Putin. It might even explain Danchenko's fibs...

> > > 3. "The Washington Post and The New York Times are retracting reportage based upon it."
> So?

So the most respected liberal newspapers in the United States, both committed Russiagate boosters, are turning against the theory's most celebrated piece of evidence. Is this line of argument impermissible? Did you not yourself bleat about Steele's "reputation" a few moments ago?

> > > 4. "*Steele himself* now acknowledges that 'not everything in the dossier is 100% accurate.'"
> He's also being realistic. 100% is a very high bar to set.

Crucial context: He made this acknowledgment in light of the prosecution of one of his sources. He hadn't been so realistic previously.

> > > 5. "A Democratic-controlled Justice Department is prosecuting his primary source."
> Another of your shit arguments. Durham was appointed by Barr, and the Dems are letting him do his job (as they should).

Quite. Why does that make it a shit argument? Perhaps you don't like the "Democratic-controlled" bit? Okay: "The Justice Department is prosecuting his primary source." That's still strong enough to be getting on with. If the primary source for anything I'd written were arrested for lying to me, I'd be a bit nervous. Wouldn't you?

Rodney

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Subject: Re: "English" county cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 22:08 UTC

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 8:00:08 AM UTC+10, Rodney Ulyate wrote:
> > You've demonstrated that you don't even know what the central claims are.
> Actually, that's what you've done. You've cited it as a source for the Russian-interference narrative, when as any fule kno it's all about the Trump/Russia-collusion narrative.

Again, for your benefit;
""The dossier describes two different Russian operations. The first was an attempt, lasting many years, to find ways to influence Trump, probably not so much "to make Mr. Trump a knowing agent of Russia", but most likely to make him a source the Russians could use. This operation utilized kompromat (Russian: short for "compromising material") and proposals of business deals. The second operation was very recent and involved contacts with Trump's representatives during the campaign to discuss the hacking of the DNC and Podesta""

As I said, I'm done.
Your remaining questions will remain unanswered until you learn to have an honest discussion.

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