Buying some Apples which came from the other side of the world from a
major supermarket here in the UK, a member of our family immediately
detected a known to her chemical taste.

No, it is not from an outside spray to the apples, as we washed
thoroughly to make sure. Definitely it is inside the apples.

So many people that are not so focused on what they are eating, are
likely not to notice the subtle taste of this added chemical.

She comes from a country where this chemical is quite often put in the
ground around a fruit tree and it actually makes the growing fruit sweeter.

We wish to warn the Supermarket Buyers of what they are buying and since
they might be in the dark about these things would like to try and
identify what chemical is used to make fruit sweeter. It is commonly and
quietly used growing oranges in certain countries. We would like to give
the buyers some warning as to what to look out for.

Would anyone here with specialized knowledge be able to name this added
chemical or perhaps direct me to somewhere that might be able to help?

Thanks.

On 04/04/2022 13:15, john west wrote:
>
>
> Buying some Apples which came from the other side of the world from a
> major supermarket here in the UK, a member of our family immediately
> detected a known to her chemical taste.

If she knows what it is then why are you asking?

*ALL* smells and tastes are chemicals!

Most of the interesting ones are made by the plants to kill off fungi
and sap sucking insects. Some of them we find edible and agreeable.

Plants use chemical weapons because they cannot run away from predators.

If you buy out of season fruit that has been shipped an insane distance
in cold inert gas storage then you must expect some accumulation of
natural waste products in normal fruit. This is about the time of year
when even the most carefully kept domestic apples taste like cardboard.

> No, it is not from an outside spray to the apples, as we washed
> thoroughly to make sure. Definitely it is inside the apples.
>
> So many people that are not so focused on what they are eating, are
> likely not to notice the subtle taste of this added chemical.

> She comes from a country where this chemical is quite often put in the
> ground around a fruit tree and it actually makes the growing fruit sweeter.

So then she will know what it is. Which country and what chemical?

> We wish to warn the Supermarket Buyers of what they are buying and since
> they might be in the dark about these things would like to try and
> identify what chemical is used to make fruit sweeter. It is commonly and
> quietly used growing oranges in certain countries. We would like to give
> the buyers some warning as to what to look out for.

Offhand I can't think of anything that would behave as you describe.

> Would anyone here with specialized knowledge be able to name this added
> chemical or perhaps direct me to somewhere that might be able to help?

You said that she already knew what it was at the start of this post.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote:

> You said that she already knew what it was at the start of this post.

It is possible to read what he said as "she recognises the taste" as opposed to
"she knows what chemical produces that taste".

Controlling ethylene (which has a noticeably sweet smell) in fruit packaging is
probably the best know chemical effect, though most often the supermarkets want
to keep levels down to avoid over-ripening during transport.

On 05/04/2022 09:42, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
> su
>> You said that she already knew what it was at the start of this post.
>
> It is possible to read what he said as "she recognises the taste" as
> opposed to "she knows what chemical produces that taste".
>
> Controlling ethylene (which has a noticeably sweet smell) in fruit
> packaging is probably the best know chemical effect, though most often
> the supermarkets want to keep levels down to avoid over-ripening during
> transport.

Andy has hit the nail on the head. She has known in the past for people
to put this chemical down and knows the resulting subtle taste. But is
now not in a position to contact these people. It is a frowned on
practice so is done very quietly. Similar to the secretive tipping of
sugar into commercial products even in countries with strict
regulations. Ever heard of gutter fat? Please try not to be so quickly
tetchy Martin without thought. It never helps anyone.

On 06/04/2022 10:02, john west wrote:
> On 05/04/2022 09:42, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>  su
>>> You said that she already knew what it was at the start of this post.
>>
>> It is possible to read what he said as "she recognises the taste" as
>> opposed to "she knows what chemical produces that taste".
>>
>> Controlling ethylene (which has a noticeably sweet smell) in fruit
>> packaging is probably the best know chemical effect, though most often
>> the supermarkets want to keep levels down to avoid over-ripening
>> during transport.
>
> Andy has hit the nail on the head.  She has known in the past for people
> to put this chemical down and knows the resulting subtle taste. But is

What you claim here makes little or no sense.

The main reason stuff like apples shipped half way around the world
taste a bit duff is simply the time that it takes to get them here and
the tricks used to suspend the apples metabolism whilst in transit.

> now not in a position to contact these people. It is a frowned on
> practice so is done very quietly. Similar to the secretive tipping of
> sugar into commercial products even in countries with strict
> regulations.  Ever heard of gutter fat?  Please try not to be so quickly
> tetchy Martin without thought. It never helps anyone.

Adding cane sugar to wines is easily detected by stable isotope mass
spectrometry and the terroir of a high value wine (or gold ore for that
matter) can be determined by trace element ICPMS signature.

You have made an extraordinary and *unsupported* claim about
adulteration of supermarket foods.

Most apples they stock are chosen primarily for maximum shelf life,
robustness in transit, roundness and size uniformity. It is no surprise
to me that they taste somewhere between innocuous and pretty awful.

The best tasting apples often have a short season, don't travel well at
all and need to be eaten fresh off the tree.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 06/04/2022 13:09, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 06/04/2022 10:02, john west wrote:
>> On 05/04/2022 09:42, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>>  su
>>>> You said that she already knew what it was at the start of this post.
>>>
>>> It is possible to read what he said as "she recognises the taste" as
>>> opposed to "she knows what chemical produces that taste".
>>>
>>> Controlling ethylene (which has a noticeably sweet smell) in fruit
>>> packaging is probably the best know chemical effect, though most often
>>> the supermarkets want to keep levels down to avoid over-ripening
>>> during transport.

Can't say I've ever smelt *pure* ethylene. Many sources refer to it
having a sweet smell and taste, but I think that's only in pretty high
concentrations that wouldn't be found in fruit naturally or even if
added. I'd be hard pushed to smell anything other than ripening bananas
if I put my nose in a just-opened container of bananas.

>> Andy has hit the nail on the head.  She has known in the past for people
>> to put this chemical down and knows the resulting subtle taste. But is
>
> What you claim here makes little or no sense.
>
> The main reason stuff like apples shipped half way around the world
> taste a bit duff is simply the time that it takes to get them here and
> the tricks used to suspend the apples metabolism whilst in transit.

It's not only the shipping. Many fruits are picked too early anyway, and
kept in cold storage for ages. I see the supermarkets are still selling
northern hemisphere apples and pears which must have been picked 6
months ago!

>> now not in a position to contact these people. It is a frowned on
>> practice so is done very quietly. Similar to the secretive tipping of
>> sugar into commercial products even in countries with strict
>> regulations.  Ever heard of gutter fat?  Please try not to be so quickly
>> tetchy Martin without thought. It never helps anyone.
>
> Adding cane sugar to wines is easily detected by stable isotope mass
> spectrometry and the terroir of a high value wine (or gold ore for that
> matter) can be determined by trace element ICPMS signature.
>
> You have made an extraordinary and *unsupported* claim about
> adulteration of supermarket foods.
>
> Most apples they stock are chosen primarily for maximum shelf life,
> robustness in transit, roundness and size uniformity. It is no surprise
> to me that they taste somewhere between innocuous and pretty awful.

I think that might apply more to heritage apples. It may be - although I
have no evidence - that modern varieties of apple are bred for
reliability of flavour in storage as much as anything. I am quite happy
to eat "Jazz", "Smitten", "Envy", etc for several months after their
harvesting period. However, trying the same thing with my favourite
apple - Egremont Russet - is doomed to failure. I have, however,
recently tried some newer apple varieties which don't pass the taste
test very well at any time. These are Amelia, and, new this year,
"Cosmic Crisp". There's another one called "Cameo" which is so-so.

> The best tasting apples often have a short season, don't travel well at
> all and need to be eaten fresh off the tree.

But they *have* to be picked when ripe, not just fresh. That's the main
problem with the pear "Doyenné du Comice", which IMHO has the best
flavour, but has a storage time measured in days! It's pointless buying
them after being in storage even a month after harvesting time. For
that, the best compromise is "Concorde", which keeps as well as
"Conference" (one parent) with almost the taste of "Doyenné du Comice"
(its other parent).

--

Jeff

On 06/04/2022 13:40, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 06/04/2022 13:09, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 06/04/2022 10:02, john west wrote:
>>> On 05/04/2022 09:42, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>   su
>>>>> You said that she already knew what it was at the start of this post.
>>>>
>>>> It is possible to read what he said as "she recognises the taste" as
>>>> opposed to "she knows what chemical produces that taste".
>>>>
>>>> Controlling ethylene (which has a noticeably sweet smell) in fruit
>>>> packaging is probably the best know chemical effect, though most often
>>>> the supermarkets want to keep levels down to avoid over-ripening
>>>> during transport.
>
> Can't say I've ever smelt *pure* ethylene. Many sources refer to it
> having a sweet smell and taste, but I think that's only in pretty high
> concentrations that wouldn't be found in fruit naturally or even if
> added. I'd be hard pushed to smell anything other than ripening bananas
> if I put my nose in a just-opened container of bananas.

It smells not unlike just about ripe bananas. There are other volatile
esters in banana pong which get stronger when they ripen. notably
isoamyl acetate (aka "banana oil").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoamyl_acetate

Ethylene mediates synchronised ripening in many fruit.

>>> Andy has hit the nail on the head.  She has known in the past for people
>>> to put this chemical down and knows the resulting subtle taste. But is
>>
>> What you claim here makes little or no sense.
>>
>> The main reason stuff like apples shipped half way around the world
>> taste a bit duff is simply the time that it takes to get them here and
>> the tricks used to suspend the apples metabolism whilst in transit.
>
> It's not only the shipping. Many fruits are picked too early anyway, and
> kept in cold storage for ages. I see the supermarkets are still selling
> northern hemisphere apples and pears which must have been picked 6
> months ago!

They store them in oxygen reduced and chilled environments.
It keeps them "fresh" ie not rotten but does nothing good for the taste.
Long stored apples at this time of year taste like cardboard.
>
>>> now not in a position to contact these people. It is a frowned on
>>> practice so is done very quietly. Similar to the secretive tipping of
>>> sugar into commercial products even in countries with strict
>>> regulations.  Ever heard of gutter fat?  Please try not to be so quickly
>>> tetchy Martin without thought. It never helps anyone.
>>
>> Adding cane sugar to wines is easily detected by stable isotope mass
>> spectrometry and the terroir of a high value wine (or gold ore for that
>> matter) can be determined by trace element ICPMS signature.
>>
>> You have made an extraordinary and *unsupported* claim about
>> adulteration of supermarket foods.
>>
>> Most apples they stock are chosen primarily for maximum shelf life,
>> robustness in transit, roundness and size uniformity. It is no surprise
>> to me that they taste somewhere between innocuous and pretty awful.
>
> I think that might apply more to heritage apples. It may be - although I
> have no evidence - that modern varieties of apple are bred for
> reliability of flavour in storage as much as anything. I am quite happy
> to eat "Jazz", "Smitten", "Envy", etc for several months after their
> harvesting period. However, trying the same thing with my favourite
> apple - Egremont Russet - is doomed to failure. I have, however,
> recently tried some newer apple varieties which don't pass the taste
> test very well at any time. These are Amelia, and, new this year,
> "Cosmic Crisp". There's another one called "Cameo" which is so-so.

Many of the interesting tasting ones are heritage apples. There is a
walled garden not far from me with about 20 rare varieties. Some of
those 100+ year old fruit trees were so rare that the experts who came
to look at them took away samples to propagate.

>> The best tasting apples often have a short season, don't travel well at
>> all and need to be eaten fresh off the tree.
>
> But they *have* to be picked when ripe, not just fresh. That's the main
> problem with the pear "Doyenné du Comice", which IMHO has the best
> flavour, but has a storage time measured in days! It's pointless buying

Doyenne du Comice is one of those curiosities that is best picked when
still slightly unripe and ripened under control. I used to have a tree
when I lived in Cheshire that fruited very well. Up here in North Yorks
I planted one but it died. I do have Egremont Russet and Sunset though.
And I can do swaps for Discovery and Dog Snout among others.

Discovery is about the earliest one to be eatable up here. It really
doesn't keep for very long and is best eaten off the tree.

> them after being in storage even a month after harvesting time. For
> that, the best compromise is "Concorde", which keeps as well as
> "Conference" (one parent) with almost the taste of "Doyenné du Comice"
> (its other parent).

I agree D du C is hard work but you can keep them for a while if you
only bring small numbers into the warm at a time. Keeping the squirrels
off the ones stored in the garage is rather more difficult.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 06/04/2022 13:40, Jeff Layman wrote:

> It's not only the shipping. Many fruits are picked too early anyway, and
> kept in cold storage for ages. I see the supermarkets are still selling
> northern hemisphere apples and pears which must have been picked 6
> months ago!
>

A lot of fruit seems to be grown for cosmetic reasons rather than taste.
Early strawberries for Spain and very late strawberries from the UK are
big and red and that's about it.

I found that the country of origin can have a affect on the taste. In
general I've found that fruit from South Africa to be better (taste
wise) than the same varieties that come from out former EU partners.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:15:09 +0100, john west
<mail.invalid456@mail.invalid> wrote:

>
>
>Buying some Apples which came from the other side of the world from a
>major supermarket here in the UK, a member of our family immediately
>detected a known to her chemical taste.
>
>No, it is not from an outside spray to the apples, as we washed
>thoroughly to make sure. Definitely it is inside the apples.
>
>So many people that are not so focused on what they are eating, are
>likely not to notice the subtle taste of this added chemical.
>
>She comes from a country where this chemical is quite often put in the
>ground around a fruit tree and it actually makes the growing fruit sweeter.
>
>We wish to warn the Supermarket Buyers of what they are buying and since
>they might be in the dark about these things would like to try and
>identify what chemical is used to make fruit sweeter. It is commonly and
>quietly used growing oranges in certain countries. We would like to give
>the buyers some warning as to what to look out for.
>
>Would anyone here with specialized knowledge be able to name this added
>chemical or perhaps direct me to somewhere that might be able to help?
>
>Thanks.

If you google for 'fertiliser used to sweeten fruit crops' you will
get a lot of hits, many of which recommend ensuring adequate nitrogen,
and some a balanced NPK fertiliser (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium),
and some recommend magnesium. These are all standard fertilisers used
throughout the agricultural industry, not just for fruit, and there is
nothing unusual about them. They are all 'chemicals' as you put it in
your slightly pejorative message, and are probably all made through an
industrial plant of some sort. But that doesn't make them in any way
more harmful than those same chemicals found in compost or manure.

--
Chris

Gardening in West Cornwall, very mild, sheltered
from the West, but open to the North and East.

On 08/04/2022 09:12, alan_m wrote:
> On 06/04/2022 13:40, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> It's not only the shipping. Many fruits are picked too early anyway,
>> and kept in cold storage for ages. I see the supermarkets are still
>> selling northern hemisphere apples and pears which must have been
>> picked 6 months ago!
>
> A lot of fruit seems to be grown for cosmetic reasons rather than taste.
> Early strawberries for Spain and very late strawberries from the UK are
> big and red and that's about it.

Breeding for size, colour, glossy skin, robustness and shelf life has
that effect. Taste is well down their list of priorities.

Some of the best tasting strawberries are not commercially viable. Most
of the bulk ones I suspect are now grown hydroponically under glass.

> I found that the country of origin can have a affect on the taste. In
> general I've found that fruit from South Africa to be better (taste
> wise) than the same varieties that come from out former EU partners.

To my surprise I discovered when I lived in a house with a Golden
Delicious apple tree in the garden that they were really quite a decent
apple when grown slowly on a dwarfing rootstock. Smaller apples but much
tastier than the commercial fruit grown on a pumped up vigorous stock.

Picking them after ripening on the tree probably helps flavour too.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 2022-04-08, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
> To my surprise I discovered when I lived in a house with a Golden
> Delicious apple tree in the garden that they were really quite a decent
> apple when grown slowly on a dwarfing rootstock. Smaller apples but much
> tastier than the commercial fruit grown on a pumped up vigorous stock.

I've heard that too, but not had chance to test it. However,
Greensleeves is a good, better tasting, Golden Delicious replacement and
it seems to grow well up north-ish - I'm near Wakefield at 400 feet.

On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 09:12:12 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>A lot of fruit seems to be grown for cosmetic reasons rather than taste.

Google "Ark of Taste;" there's a UK group. I heard a podcast about
them in which they interviewed a senior plant breeder from the
University of California at Davis (a major source of new and
"improved" varieties.
He said the growers asked for varieties that were easy to ship,
uniform in size and maturity, attractive at the market....
"But what about taste?"
"Gee, they never asked me about that"
I won't buy a supermarket red or yellow delicious apple; never
acquired a taste for sawdust.

--
Gary Woods O- K2AHC

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 08/04/2022 09:31, Chris Hogg wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:15:09 +0100, john west
> <mail.invalid456@mail.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Buying some Apples which came from the other side of the world from a
>> major supermarket here in the UK, a member of our family immediately
>> detected a known to her chemical taste.
>>
>> No, it is not from an outside spray to the apples, as we washed
>> thoroughly to make sure. Definitely it is inside the apples.
>>
>> So many people that are not so focused on what they are eating, are
>> likely not to notice the subtle taste of this added chemical.
>>
>> She comes from a country where this chemical is quite often put in the
>> ground around a fruit tree and it actually makes the growing fruit sweeter.
>>
>> We wish to warn the Supermarket Buyers of what they are buying and since
>> they might be in the dark about these things would like to try and
>> identify what chemical is used to make fruit sweeter. It is commonly and
>> quietly used growing oranges in certain countries. We would like to give
>> the buyers some warning as to what to look out for.
>>
>> Would anyone here with specialized knowledge be able to name this added
>> chemical or perhaps direct me to somewhere that might be able to help?
>>
>> Thanks.
>
> If you google for 'fertiliser used to sweeten fruit crops' you will
> get a lot of hits, many of which recommend ensuring adequate nitrogen,
> and some a balanced NPK fertiliser (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium),
> and some recommend magnesium. These are all standard fertilisers used
> throughout the agricultural industry, not just for fruit, and there is
> nothing unusual about them. They are all 'chemicals' as you put it in
> your slightly pejorative message, and are probably all made through an
> industrial plant of some sort. But that doesn't make them in any way
> more harmful than those same chemicals found in compost or manure.

Don't they say there are none so blind as those who don't want to see?
In a distant country from the UK that supplies fruit around the world
there is a chemical applied that effects the taste and is frowned upon
and is only applied in a secretive manner.
Some can detect this chemical taste and many cannot. (like sprouts being
bitter for only some people). OK so its not in google. So lets all live
in a Sanitized world.

On 12/04/2022 09:59, john west wrote:
> On 08/04/2022 09:31, Chris Hogg wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:15:09 +0100, john west
>> <mail.invalid456@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>

>>> Would anyone here with specialized knowledge be able to name this added
>>> chemical or perhaps direct me to somewhere that might be able to help?
>>>
>>> Thanks.

Pure unadulterated bovine excrement. Works as well as anything.

>> If you google for 'fertiliser used to sweeten fruit crops' you will
>> get a lot of hits, many of which recommend ensuring adequate nitrogen,
>> and some a balanced NPK fertiliser (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium),
>> and some recommend magnesium. These are all standard fertilisers used
>> throughout the agricultural industry, not just for fruit, and there is
>> nothing unusual about them. They are all 'chemicals' as you put it in
>> your slightly pejorative message, and are probably all made through an
>> industrial plant of some sort. But that doesn't make them in any way
>> more harmful than those same chemicals found in compost or manure.
>
> Don't they say there are none so blind as those who don't want to see?
> In a distant country from the UK that supplies fruit around the world
> there is a chemical applied that effects the taste and is frowned upon
> and is only applied in a secretive manner.

You are making unsupported wild allegations against fruit growers. Fruit
imported into the UK is residue tested often enough that it would show
if there was something dodgy in the fruit even at ultra trace levels.

HPLC and GCMS can detect pretty much anything these days and identify it
against a library of compounds.

Some countries there is a pesticide residue problem with produce sold on
their domestic markets (typically oversized and would fail residue tests
if it were exported).

> Some can detect this chemical taste and many cannot. (like sprouts being
> bitter for only some people).     OK so its not in google. So lets all
> live in a Sanitized world.

Tell us the country and we might be able to make progress but unless you
are prepared do that we are never going to believe you.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 12/04/2022 09:59, john west wrote:
> Don't they say there are none so blind as those who don't want to see?
> In a distant country from the UK that supplies fruit around the world
> there is a chemical applied that effects the taste and is frowned upon
> and is only applied in a secretive manner.

And this country is run by alien lizards, and they do this to encourage
people o eat their fruit that contains invisible microchips that make
them Believe In Climate Change and Renwable Energy.....

> Some can detect this chemical taste and many cannot. (like sprouts being
> bitter for only some people).     OK so its not in google. So lets all
> live in a Sanitized world.
>
Or let's all read Hume's 'problem of Induction' and understand exactly
why there is no way to disprove any conspiracy theory of a metaphysical
nature.

There really are invisible undetectable fairies at the bottom of my
garden. That only reveal themselves to me. /sarc

--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:59:01 john west wrote:

>On 08/04/2022 09:31, Chris Hogg wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:15:09 +0100, john west
>> <mail.invalid456@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Buying some Apples which came from the other side of the world from a
>>> major supermarket here in the UK, a member of our family immediately
>>> detected a known to her chemical taste.
>>>
>>> No, it is not from an outside spray to the apples, as we washed
>>> thoroughly to make sure. Definitely it is inside the apples.
>>>
>>> So many people that are not so focused on what they are eating, are
>>> likely not to notice the subtle taste of this added chemical.
>>>
>>> She comes from a country where this chemical is quite often put in the
>>> ground around a fruit tree and it actually makes the growing fruit sweeter.
>>>
>>> We wish to warn the Supermarket Buyers of what they are buying and since
>>> they might be in the dark about these things would like to try and
>>> identify what chemical is used to make fruit sweeter. It is commonly and
>>> quietly used growing oranges in certain countries. We would like to give
>>> the buyers some warning as to what to look out for.
>>>
>>> Would anyone here with specialized knowledge be able to name this added
>>> chemical or perhaps direct me to somewhere that might be able to help?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>> If you google for 'fertiliser used to sweeten fruit crops' you will
>> get a lot of hits, many of which recommend ensuring adequate nitrogen,
>> and some a balanced NPK fertiliser (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium),
>> and some recommend magnesium. These are all standard fertilisers used
>> throughout the agricultural industry, not just for fruit, and there is
>> nothing unusual about them. They are all 'chemicals' as you put it in
>> your slightly pejorative message, and are probably all made through an
>> industrial plant of some sort. But that doesn't make them in any way
>> more harmful than those same chemicals found in compost or manure.
>
>
>Don't they say there are none so blind as those who don't want to see?
>In a distant country from the UK that supplies fruit around the world
>there is a chemical applied that effects the taste and is frowned upon
>and is only applied in a secretive manner.
>Some can detect this chemical taste and many cannot. (like sprouts
>being bitter for only some people). OK so its not in google. So
>lets all live in a Sanitized world.

So how do you know this? What is your source? Or is this simply "gossip"
from a friend to a friend to a friend?

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

On 12/04/2022 11:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 12/04/2022 09:59, john west wrote:
>> Don't they say there are none so blind as those who don't want to see?
>> In a distant country from the UK that supplies fruit around the world
>> there is a chemical applied that effects the taste and is frowned upon
>> and is only applied in a secretive manner.
>
> And this country is run by alien lizards, and they do this to encourage
> people o eat their fruit that contains invisible microchips that make
> them Believe In Climate Change and Renwable Energy.....
>
>> Some can detect this chemical taste and many cannot. (like sprouts
>> being bitter for only some people).     OK so its not in google. So
>> lets all live in a Sanitized world.
>>
> Or let's all read Hume's 'problem of Induction' and understand exactly
> why there is no way to disprove any conspiracy theory of a metaphysical
> nature.
>
> There really are invisible undetectable fairies at the bottom of my
> garden. That only reveal themselves to me. /sarc

Those who Emotionally don't want to see something are the best Deniers.

As Mark Steyn showed yesterday on GBNEWS , that in Official British
Government Documents of the * The UK Health Security Agency* * which
show those who had the Covid Vaccine died more frequently than those who
did not take the vaccine.

But the Deniers hold sway with even many GPs afraid to speak out.

So i will stay with the fairies as you put it. You can Deny what you
want. Goodbye.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 09:13:52 +0100, john west
<mail.invalid456@mail.invalid> wrote:

>As Mark Steyn showed yesterday on GBNEWS , that in Official British
>Government Documents of the * The UK Health Security Agency* * which
>show those who had the Covid Vaccine died more frequently than those who
>did not take the vaccine.
>

I can't find it. You'll have to post a direct link if you want others
to read it.

Interesting phrase 'died more frequently'. Most people only die once!
:-) BIKWYM

--
Chris

Gardening in West Cornwall, very mild, sheltered
from the West, but open to the North and East.

john west <mail.invalid456@mail.invalid> wrote:
>
> As Mark Steyn showed yesterday on GBNEWS , that in Official British
> Government Documents of the * The UK Health Security Agency* * which
> show those who had the Covid Vaccine died more frequently than those who
> did not take the vaccine.
>
Two points:-

What is "The UK Health Security Agency", I've never heard of such
a body.

Without information on how vulnerable to Covid "those who had the
Covid Vaccine" in comparison to "those who did not take the
vaccine" the above statistic (if it really is one) doesn't show
what you are suggesting it does.

--
Chris Green
·

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 09:32:33 +0100, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

>john west <mail.invalid456@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> As Mark Steyn showed yesterday on GBNEWS , that in Official British
>> Government Documents of the * The UK Health Security Agency* * which
>> show those who had the Covid Vaccine died more frequently than those who
>> did not take the vaccine.
>>
>Two points:-
>
> What is "The UK Health Security Agency", I've never heard of such
> a body.
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-health-security-agency

Looks official. But I can't see it there either.
>
> Without information on how vulnerable to Covid "those who had the
> Covid Vaccine" in comparison to "those who did not take the
> vaccine" the above statistic (if it really is one) doesn't show
> what you are suggesting it does.

--
Chris

Gardening in West Cornwall, very mild, sheltered
from the West, but open to the North and East.

On 22/04/2022 09:13, john west wrote:
> On 12/04/2022 11:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 12/04/2022 09:59, john west wrote:
>>> Don't they say there are none so blind as those who don't want to see?
>>> In a distant country from the UK that supplies fruit around the world
>>> there is a chemical applied that effects the taste and is frowned
>>> upon and is only applied in a secretive manner.
>>
>> And this country is run by alien lizards, and they do this to
>> encourage people o eat their fruit that contains invisible microchips
>> that make them Believe In Climate Change and Renwable Energy.....
>>
>>> Some can detect this chemical taste and many cannot. (like sprouts
>>> being bitter for only some people).     OK so its not in google. So
>>> lets all live in a Sanitized world.
>>>
>> Or let's all read Hume's 'problem of Induction' and understand exactly
>> why there is no way to disprove any conspiracy theory of a
>> metaphysical nature.
>>
>> There really are invisible undetectable fairies at the bottom of my
>> garden. That only reveal themselves to me. /sarc
>
> Those who Emotionally don't want to see something are the best Deniers.
>
> As Mark Steyn showed yesterday on GBNEWS , that in Official British
> Government Documents of the * The UK Health Security Agency*  * which
> show those who had the Covid Vaccine died more frequently than those who
> did not take the vaccine.

Of course, They are far and away the older members of the population
Ive been triple vaxxed. I had a minor heart attack and nearly died due
to being slung out of A & E as 'allright to go home'

You have misread what I wrote,
Facts are one thing, inductive reasoning is what turns facts into causal
theories.

>
> But the Deniers hold sway with even many GPs afraid to speak out.
>
> So i will stay with the fairies as you put it. You can Deny what you
> want. Goodbye.

I don't deny facts, I deny causal relationships that have no reason to
be preferred over other factors.

I cannot remember who it was who noted that the price of wheat in any
given year always correlated with the number of drawn county cricket
matches.

I suppose you would say it caused them?

>

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

Chris Hogg wrote:

> Chris Green wrote:
>
>> What is "The UK Health Security Agency", I've never heard of such
>> a body.
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-health-security-agency
> Looks official. But I can't see it there either.

I think Mark Steyn was referring to these reports

<https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports>

worth a look to see if it's cherry picking, misinterpreting, or if there's
something in it ...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> john west wrote:
>
>> As Mark Steyn showed yesterday on GBNEWS , that in Official British Government
>> Documents of the * The UK Health Security Agency*  * which show those who had
>> the Covid Vaccine died more frequently than those who did not take the vaccine.
>
> Of course, They are far and away the older members of the population

Here's the segment for those interested, be warned, he does go on a bit ..

<https://youtu.be/a8kdH2Xgf-k?t=483>

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 12:31:05 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Chris Hogg wrote:
>
>> Chris Green wrote:
>>
>>> What is "The UK Health Security Agency", I've never heard of such
>>> a body.
>>
>> https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-health-security-agency
>> Looks official. But I can't see it there either.
>
>I think Mark Steyn was referring to these reports
>
><https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports>
>
>worth a look to see if it's cherry picking, misinterpreting, or if there's
>something in it ...

There may be something in there, but ICBA to wade through them to find
out. If John West can't provide a direct link to support his claim,
I'm damned if I'm going to spend time looking for it.

--
Chris

Gardening in West Cornwall, very mild, sheltered
from the West, but open to the North and East.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 09:13:52 john west wrote:

>Those who Emotionally don't want to see something are the best Deniers.
>
>As Mark Steyn showed yesterday on GBNEWS , that in Official British
>Government Documents of the * The UK Health Security Agency* * which
>show those who had the Covid Vaccine died more frequently than those
>who did not take the vaccine.
>
>But the Deniers hold sway with even many GPs afraid to speak out.
>
>So i will stay with the fairies as you put it. You can Deny what you
>want. Goodbye.

Why do I think this chap is a troll?

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK