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aus+uk / uk.rec.gardening / Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.

SubjectAuthor
* Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.john west
+* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Martin Brown
|`* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Andy Burns
| `* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.john west
|  `* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Martin Brown
|   `* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Jeff Layman
|    +- Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Martin Brown
|    `* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.alan_m
|     +* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Martin Brown
|     |`- Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Jim Jackson
|     `- Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Gary Woods
`* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Chris Hogg
 `* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.john west
  +- Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Martin Brown
  +* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.The Natural Philosopher
  |`* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.john west
  | +* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Chris Hogg
  | |`* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Stewart Robert Hinsley
  | | `- Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Nick Maclaren
  | +* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Chris Green
  | |`* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Chris Hogg
  | | `* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Andy Burns
  | |  `* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Chris Hogg
  | |   `* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Martin Brown
  | |    `* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Andy Burns
  | |     +* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Andy Burns
  | |     |`* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Martin Brown
  | |     | `* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.The Natural Philosopher
  | |     |  `- Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Martin Brown
  | |     `- Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Vir Campestris
  | +* Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.The Natural Philosopher
  | |`- Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.Andy Burns
  | `- Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.David Rance
  `- Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.David Rance

Pages:12
Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.

<t3ve1c$dl3$1@dont-email.me>

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From: {$new...@meden.demon.co.uk (Stewart Robert Hinsley)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 00:34:02 +0100
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 by: Stewart Robert Hinsl - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 23:34 UTC

On 22/04/2022 09:32, Chris Hogg wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 09:13:52 +0100, john west
> <mail.invalid456@mail.invalid> wrote:
>
>> As Mark Steyn showed yesterday on GBNEWS , that in Official British
>> Government Documents of the * The UK Health Security Agency* * which
>> show those who had the Covid Vaccine died more frequently than those who
>> did not take the vaccine.
>>
>
> I can't find it. You'll have to post a direct link if you want others
> to read it.
>
> Interesting phrase 'died more frequently'. Most people only die once!
> :-) BIKWYM
>

I've seen it said that vaccination reduces your risks from COVID-19 to
that of a person 30 years younger. By that rule of thumb, a vaccinated
90 year old would be at the same risk as an unvaccinated 60 year old,
and considerably greater risk that an unvaccinated 30 year old.

Take your measurements at a time when old people are in general
vaccinated, and young people are in general not vaccinated, and
vaccinated people dying at a greater rate than unvaccinated people is
not impossible. Control for other factors, and it's being unvaccinated
that is a risk factor for death or long COVID as sequelae of SARS-COV-2
infection.

(I was skeptical of John West's claims of chemical treatments of trees
to sweeten fruits. He has just strengthened my skepticism.)

--
SRH

Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 17:37:11 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 17:37 UTC

In article <t3ve1c$dl3$1@dont-email.me>,
Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 22/04/2022 09:32, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>
>> Interesting phrase 'died more frequently'. Most people only die once!
>> :-) BIKWYM

On GBNEWS, who knows?

>I've seen it said that vaccination reduces your risks from COVID-19 to
>that of a person 30 years younger. By that rule of thumb, a vaccinated
>90 year old would be at the same risk as an unvaccinated 60 year old,
>and considerably greater risk that an unvaccinated 30 year old.
>
>Take your measurements at a time when old people are in general
>vaccinated, and young people are in general not vaccinated, and
>vaccinated people dying at a greater rate than unvaccinated people is
>not impossible. Control for other factors, and it's being unvaccinated
>that is a risk factor for death or long COVID as sequelae of SARS-COV-2
>infection.

I looked into that when data started to be published, before the
vaccines were available and during lockdown, and the death rate from
COVID was almost exactly pro rata to the death rate from all causes.
As vaccination started with the vulnerable (including elderly), yes,
there was a time when that occurred.

It's unclear what the current situation is, because pretty well everyone
has been either fully vaccinated, or has had COVID, or both. But the
age-linked risk remains and is the dominant one.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 08:20:43 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 07:20 UTC

On 22/04/2022 14:32, Chris Hogg wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 12:31:05 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>
>>> Chris Green wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is "The UK Health Security Agency", I've never heard of such
>>>> a body.
>>>
>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-health-security-agency
>>> Looks official. But I can't see it there either.
>>
>> I think Mark Steyn was referring to these reports
>>
>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports>
>>
>> worth a look to see if it's cherry picking, misinterpreting, or if there's
>> something in it ...
>
> There may be something in there, but ICBA to wade through them to find
> out. If John West can't provide a direct link to support his claim,
> I'm damned if I'm going to spend time looking for it.

Figure 16 in this gives you everything you need to call him out as a
lying paranoid charlatan. Deliberate misrepresentation of genuine
information intended to cost lives by sowing doubt about vaccines.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1070356/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-16.pdf

The vaccines haven't been as effective as I had hoped they might be
which is why the UK is still so damn Covid hot. The hospitalisation
levels and death rates are lower than earlier in the pandemic though.

The half life of booster jabs against catching Omicron and its even more
infectious derivatives is about 3-4 months. Fortunately the risk of a
serious hospitalising infection or death for most people is still
reduced by more than an order of magnitude after the third jab.

Basically Covid is now only a lethal disease in the unvaccinated and
immunosuppressed but can still be nasty for the fully vaccinated if they
are unlucky enough to be in the 10% cohort that it could have killed.

I met someone over Easter very recently recovered from Covid who is
probably only still alive because he was triple vaccinated - he still
had some breathing difficulties and bruised ribs from coughing violently
for three days solid. Medics reckon he will recover OK.

By comparison a friend who was a fit and regular skier who caught it in
the first couple of months has still not got adequate lung function back
and remains off work. At the time I thought their consultant was being
pessimistic when he said at least 12 months to recovery. They spent 9
days on a ventilator with Covid.

It really is pot luck whether or not you get long Covid. They are now
getting better at diagnosing the lung damage with Xenon contrast NMR.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 17:17:15 +0100
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 by: Andy Burns - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 16:17 UTC

Martin Brown wrote:

> Chris Hogg wrote:
>
>> There may be something in there, but ICBA to wade through them to find
>> out.
>
> Figure 16 in this gives you everything you need to call him out as a lying
> paranoid charlatan.

The table7 that he shows on screen claims to be from the 14th April report, but
when I looked at that, Table7 was a totally different table, I tried 3 previous
weeks and a week in march and didn't find the table he was referencing.

> The half life of booster jabs against catching Omicron and its even more
> infectious derivatives is about 3-4 months.

Given the data was broken down by 0,1,2,3 or more jabs, I'm not sure why you
lump them back together again and compare them 3 or more vs 0/1/2 jabs, I'd have
thought the most obvious "overview" comparison would be 0 vs 1 or more jabs.

> Basically Covid is now only a lethal disease in the unvaccinated and
> immunosuppressed but can still be nasty for the fully vaccinated if they are
> unlucky enough to be in the 10% cohort that it could have killed.

I'm fairly sure I have it at the moment, I've got most of the symptoms (cough,
runny nose, sore throat, hot, slight headache, aching limbs) but two LFTs so far
haven't shown positive, I'll just hide away and keep taking the ibuprofen, I'm
not feeling too bad really, maybe it is just "man flu" everybody on the phone
notices the croaky voice though.

Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 22:34:57 +0100
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 by: Andy Burns - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 21:34 UTC

Andy Burns wrote:

> Given the data was broken down by 0,1,2,3 or more jabs, I'm not sure why you

I meant "you" as in anyone, not "you" specifically ...

> lump them back together again and compare them 3 or more vs 0/1/2 jabs, I'd have
> thought the most obvious "overview" comparison would be 0 vs 1 or more jabs.

Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 10:58:41 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:58 UTC

On 26/04/2022 22:34, Andy Burns wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Given the data was broken down by 0,1,2,3 or more jabs, I'm not sure
>> why you
>
> I meant "you" as in anyone, not "you" specifically ...

That's OK. But I can answer it at least in part.

The waning of acquired immunity to all coronavirus infections in general
(~10 months) and Covid-19 in particular (~3 months) is rather fast.
However, if you have been infected once then subsequent infections by
the same or a related strain are usually milder or even asymptomatic.

Some of the observed asymptomatic carriers may well be due to cross
antibody immunity acquired from one of the other human endemic
coronaviruses (possibly OC43 from the bovine coronavirus pandemic of
1889 which at the time was called Russian flu but had the same MO).

The jury is still out on this one - there are still papers that claim it
was a strain of influenza. Overall it was 10x less deadly than Covid-19.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/could-the-key-to-covid-be-found-in-the-russian-pandemic

Half life for decent Covid immunity from antibodies is ~ 3 months so a
vaccination more than 6 months ago has very little effect at preventing
you catching it after a year - but will probably stop it killing you.

The record shortest time between catching two different variants was
some unlucky medic who got Delta and then Omicron just 20 days later.
Omicron was sufficiently different to evade immune defences.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-poster-looking-at-a-case-study-of-a-woman-who-tested-positive-for-the-omicron-variant-20-days-after-being-infected-with-the-delta-variant/

That case was somewhat unusual but it highlights the effect of the newer
variants becoming able to circumvent both the vaccines and naturally
acquired immunity from other previous strains. Fig 5 in this review
shows how each successively more infective strain has effectively wiped
out its predecessor (I wish the pink for alpha was a bit darker).

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1067672/Technical-Briefing-40-8April2022.pdf

I think there is something wrong with their colour key as well since the
thing that I think is delta is a shade of blue not present in the key!
>
>> lump them back together again and compare them 3 or more vs 0/1/2
>> jabs, I'd have thought the most obvious "overview" comparison would be
>> 0 vs 1 or more jabs.

Having had one jab ages ago offers very little protection against
catching Covid again although it might still prevent serious illness.

Evidence in the USA is that Omicron is now somewhat milder than previous
strains since it is killing a smaller percentage of their unvaccinated
refuseniks than either Delta or Alpha did. OTOH the most vulnerable may
already have been killed by Covid by now as has happened in Brazil.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 16:08:44 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 15:08 UTC

On 28/04/2022 10:58, Martin Brown wrote:
> Evidence in the USA is that Omicron is now somewhat milder than previous
> strains since it is killing a smaller percentage of their unvaccinated
> refuseniks than either Delta or Alpha did. OTOH the most vulnerable may
> already have been killed by Covid by now as has happened in Brazil.

Well be careful with causal links.
It is also true that hospitals have a much better toolkit to treat covid.
It is now almost down to 'no worse than a cold mostly, or perhaps a flu
in special cases'

--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:45:55 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:45 UTC

On 28/04/2022 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 10:58, Martin Brown wrote:
>> Evidence in the USA is that Omicron is now somewhat milder than
>> previous strains since it is killing a smaller percentage of their
>> unvaccinated refuseniks than either Delta or Alpha did. OTOH the most
>> vulnerable may already have been killed by Covid by now as has
>> happened in Brazil.
>
> Well be careful with causal links.

I agree. Although there does seem to be some reasonably secure evidence
that Omicron is about a factor of two less deadly than Delta. eg.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.30.21268495v1

There have been larger studies since that back this up.

> It is also true that hospitals have a much better toolkit to treat covid.
> It is now almost down to 'no worse than a cold mostly, or perhaps a flu
> in special cases'

Although in the US only the rich can really afford hospital treatment so
they are much less likely to get treated according to clinical need.

WHO has felt it necessary to try and separate the scientific Facts from
widely circulating Myths about Omicron on antisocial media:

https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-emergencies/pages/news/news/2022/01/the-omicron-variant-sorting-fact-from-myth

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.

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From: vir.camp...@invalid.invalid (Vir Campestris)
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Subject: Re: Industrial Chemical used to sweeten growing Fruit.
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 21:51:04 +0100
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 by: Vir Campestris - Mon, 9 May 2022 20:51 UTC

On 26/04/2022 17:17, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> I'm fairly sure I have it at the moment, I've got most of the symptoms
> (cough, runny nose, sore throat, hot, slight headache, aching limbs) but
> two LFTs so far haven't shown positive, I'll just hide away and keep
> taking the ibuprofen, I'm not feeling too bad really, maybe it is just
> "man flu" everybody on the phone notices the croaky voice though.

Hope you get well soon.

I picked up something after our office Christmas party (which was at
Easter...). I tested negative 4 times (LF), though other people there
tested positive.

I'm still coughing a month later. It's only annoying (after 3 jabs) and
hasn't stopped me doing things, but it's still there.

Andy

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