https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/

I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by EOFY
*and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
Cupra.

alvey

On 31/08/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>
> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by EOFY
> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
> Cupra.
>
>
> alvey
>
>

**Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car makers,
except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in their
line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>>
>> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
>> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by EOFY
>> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
>> Cupra.
>>
>>
>> alvey
>>
>>
>
> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car makers,
> except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in their
> line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>
>
>
Looks OK but is it OK?
The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago about
EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota, Hyundai,
Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't short of a
dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that she had
driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any of them drove.

--
Daryl

On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 31/08/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
>>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>>>
>>> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
>>> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by
>>> EOFY
>>> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
>>> Cupra.
>>>
>>>
>>> alvey
>>>
>>>
>>
>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>
>>
>>
> Looks OK but is it OK?

**No idea.

> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.

**I've had a good look at the US built Tesla 3 and the Chinese Tesla 3.
The Chinese built Tesla 3 is MUCH better than the US built one.

So, the Chinese CAN build a decent car, when push comes to shove. I have
no idea if the latest MGs are any good or not. I suspect their QC may be
improving rapidly. Dismissing Chinese cars may be dumb. Or not.

> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago about
> EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota, Hyundai,
> Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't short of a
> dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that she had
> driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any of them drove.

**Fair enough. All the EV owners I've spoken to will never go back. Some
are driving enthusiasts too.

--
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On 31/08/2022 7:42 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 31/08/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
>>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>>>
>>> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
>>> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by
>>> EOFY
>>> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
>>> Cupra.
>>>
>>>
>>> alvey
>>>
>>>
>>
>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>
>>
>>
> Looks OK but is it OK?
> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago about
> EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota, Hyundai,
> Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't short of a
> dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that she had
> driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any of them drove.
>
>

So some random woman doesn't like them. So what?

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 31/08/2022 8:20 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 31/08/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
>>>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>>>>
>>>> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
>>>> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by
>>>> EOFY
>>>> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
>>>> Cupra.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> alvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>
> **No idea.
>
>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
>> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>
> **I've had a good look at the US built Tesla 3 and the Chinese Tesla 3.
> The Chinese built Tesla 3 is MUCH better than the US built one.
>
> So, the Chinese CAN build a decent car, when push comes to shove. I have
> no idea if the latest MGs are any good or not. I suspect their QC may be
> improving rapidly. Dismissing Chinese cars may be dumb. Or not.
>
>> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
>> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
>> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
>> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that
>> she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any
>> of them drove.
>
> **Fair enough. All the EV owners I've spoken to will never go back. Some
> are driving enthusiasts too.
>
>
>

There is nothing quite the feeling of having maximum torque at take-off.
I guess the V8 loving bogans aren't quite ready for that kind of
performance and not real happy to be looking at the back end of an EV
all the time.

That's why they hate them :-)

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 31/08/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
>>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>>>
>>> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
>>> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by
>>> EOFY
>>> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
>>> Cupra.
>>>
>>>
>>> alvey
>>>
>>>
>>
>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>
>>
>>
> Looks OK but is it OK?
> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.

**I have a Chinese designed and built amplifier on the bench right now.
It was released to market in 2012. It was designed to compete with some
of the best amps on the market. On the outside, it's pretty decent. On
the inside, it's OK, but there are some build issues that I am unhappy
with, but overall, it offers performance that would typically be matched
by a Japanese/Euro/US built product at roughly 10 times the price. So,
not too bad. By all reports, reliability of the amp has been excellent.

Last week, I had a recent Chinese designed and built (as opposed to
something from Sony/Panasonic/Whatever) DAC on the bench. Stunning
quality. The chassis was milled from a solid lump of aluminium. All the
screw holes matched up perfectly and build quality was as good as the
best I've seen from anywhere on the planet. The cost? Approximately 25%
of the cost of a similar item made in the US.

The Chinese, like the Japanese way back, have improved the quality of
many of their products significantly.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:

>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>
>>
>>
> Looks OK but is it OK?

Only time will tell.

> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.

So would I.

The Chinese have come a long way in a short time, but they still have
some considerable way to go before they can be considered a legitimate
purchase prospect in my opinion. Apart from their reliability issues,
which are less than stellar, their design quirks are enough to make you
want to be wary. Often it's little things that make you stop and wonder
what the fuck the thought process was behind the idea, but it can be the
little things that make all the difference.

> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago about
> EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota, Hyundai,
> Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't short of a
> dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that she had
> driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any of them drove.

I can't see one in my future soon.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 31/08/2022 10:20 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:

>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>
> **No idea.
>
>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
>> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>
> **I've had a good look at the US built Tesla 3 and the Chinese Tesla 3.
> The Chinese built Tesla 3 is MUCH better than the US built one.

Two things. Firstly, where did you see the US built 3? I thought all
model 3's sold in Australia were made in China/

Secondly, that doesn't say a hell of a lot for the US built car, as the
build quality of the Chinese made Tesla 3 is *appalling*, and quite
easily the worst of any new car on the market that I've seen in years :)

> So, the Chinese CAN build a decent car, when push comes to shove.

It's not that simple unfortunately.

Generally speaking the country of origin has nothing to do with quality.
It's who's *making* it that makes all the difference. For example, Multi
national companies use cheap Chinese labour to build products to the
multi-national company's standards every day of the week and they turn
out high end stuff that is fairly durable. You can see perfect examples
of that by walking into your local tool suppliers and checking out the
range of tradie's battery operated tools. They're all made in China, and
they're all mostly pretty good.

Similarly, a *lot* of the established car manufacturers rely heavily on
Chinese sourced components. These components are usually built to the
established manufacturer's specs after the company themselves have done
the R&D, and they're just taking advantage of the cheap labour.

But when the Chinese are in control of the whole picture it starts to
get a bit iffy and quite quickly. They're certainly on the improve, but
there's a hard limit to how far they can go and still retain their
pricing edge.

> I have no idea if the latest MGs are any good or not. I suspect their QC may be
> improving rapidly. Dismissing Chinese cars may be dumb. Or not.

What kind of comment is this? :)

>> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
>> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
>> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
>> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that
>> she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any
>> of them drove.
>
> **Fair enough. All the EV owners I've spoken to will never go back. Some
> are driving enthusiasts too.

I've met a couple of Tesla owners now who both love the things, despite
them looking to my eyes like a pretty poorly built car with the most
ridiculously minimalist design imaginable. They really do look like
shit, and the quality of them looks like something made by Tandy in the
1980's.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 31/08/2022 11:24 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:

> The Chinese, like the Japanese way back, have improved the quality of
> many of their products significantly.

They have, and they will continue to do so.

The point of critical mass for them will come when they reach the point
where they can no longer supply "cheap" and "quality" as parts of the
same package.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 31/08/2022 9:52 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>
> Only time will tell.
>
>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
>> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>
> So would I.
>
> The Chinese have come a long way in a short time, but they still have
> some considerable way to go before they can be considered a legitimate
> purchase prospect in my opinion. Apart from their reliability issues,
> which are less than stellar,

Same can be said of several Japanese manufacturers of IC vehicles as
well. Look at the hopeless Navara (engine, suspension) or the PX1 and
PX2 Ranger (Transmission) as fairly recent examples of appalling quality
and reliability.

their design quirks are enough to make you
> want to be wary. Often it's little things that make you stop and wonder
> what the fuck the thought process was behind the idea, but it can be the
> little things that make all the difference.
>

Such as?

>> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
>> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
>> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
>> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that
>> she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any
>> of them drove.
>
> I can't see one in my future soon.
>
>

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 31/08/2022 12:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 10:20 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
>
>>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>>
>> **No idea.
>>
>>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
>>> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>>
>> **I've had a good look at the US built Tesla 3 and the Chinese Tesla
>> 3. The Chinese built Tesla 3 is MUCH better than the US built one.
>
> Two things. Firstly, where did you see the US built 3?

**Right here in beautiful Oyster Bay, NSW. A customer bought one a few
years back. He showed me the panel faults and I had a sit/ride in the
car. IT was very nice.

I thought all
> model 3's sold in Australia were made in China/

**Same customer dropped in last year. I asked how his Tesla was going.
He explained that it was not the same car. I had a close look and, sure
enough, panel fit and finish was much better than the old one. He
reckons that the new car is better all 'round.

Mind you: His second car is a late model Ferrari, so his yardstick is
not brilliant, though he did mention that his Tesla 3 is quicker than
his Ferrari.

>
> Secondly, that doesn't say a hell of a lot for the US built car, as the
> build quality of the Chinese made Tesla 3 is *appalling*, and quite
> easily the worst of any new car on the market that I've seen in years :)

**Probably.

>
>> So, the Chinese CAN build a decent car, when push comes to shove.
>
> It's not that simple unfortunately.
>
> Generally speaking the country of origin has nothing to do with quality.
> It's who's *making* it that makes all the difference. For example, Multi
> national companies use cheap Chinese labour to build products to the
> multi-national company's standards every day of the week and they turn
> out high end stuff that is fairly durable. You can see perfect examples
> of that by walking into your local tool suppliers and checking out the
> range of tradie's battery operated tools. They're all made in China, and
> they're all mostly pretty good.

**Funny you mention that. A couple of years back, I dropped $1,500.00 on
a full set of Bosch, 18 Volt tools. I am very happy with the tools,
except the angle grinder and the circular saw. It didn't dawn on me to
check the country of origin, but did so recently. The circular saw and
angle grinder are Chinese. All the other tools come from places like
Germany, Hungary, Czech Republic and Malaysia. The rotary hammer drill
(Germany) and the recpro saw (Hungary) are simply the best tools in
their class (yes, my neighbour's Milwaukee models aren't as good, though
they ain't too bad).

Anyway, yes, you point is made. Provided the multi-national company
maintains appropriate controls, Chinese products should be plenty good.

>
> Similarly, a *lot* of the established car manufacturers rely heavily on
> Chinese sourced components. These components are usually built to the
> established manufacturer's specs after the company themselves have done
> the R&D, and they're just taking advantage of the cheap labour.
>
> But when the Chinese are in control of the whole picture it starts to
> get a bit iffy and quite quickly. They're certainly on the improve, but
> there's a hard limit to how far they can go and still retain their
> pricing edge.

**That would be a company/culture thing. If a Chinese company wanted to
make the best product available, they probably could.

And, here's another dirty little secret: Most of those fancy Swiss watch
makers have their watches made in China. Not Rolex, but many of the
others. They just screw the dial on, or do some other minor operation,
so they can claim 'SWISS MADE' on the dial. The Swiss are very lax when
it comes to the national origin of their products.

>
>> I have no idea if the latest MGs are any good or not. I suspect their
>> QC may be improving rapidly. Dismissing Chinese cars may be dumb. Or not.
>
> What kind of comment is this? :)

**It would be smart to CAREFULLY examine the latest products from MG,
before claiming that they are crap.

>
>>> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
>>> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
>>> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
>>> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that
>>> she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any
>>> of them drove.
>>
>> **Fair enough. All the EV owners I've spoken to will never go back.
>> Some are driving enthusiasts too.
>
> I've met a couple of Tesla owners now who both love the things, despite
> them looking to my eyes like a pretty poorly built car with the most
> ridiculously minimalist design imaginable. They really do look like
> shit, and the quality of them looks like something made by Tandy in the
> 1980's.

**The Chinese Tesla 3 is WAY better than the US ones.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 31/8/2022 11:52 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>
> Only time will tell.
>
>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
>> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>
> So would I.
>
> The Chinese have come a long way in a short time, but they still have
> some considerable way to go before they can be considered a legitimate
> purchase prospect in my opinion. Apart from their reliability issues,
> which are less than stellar, their design quirks are enough to make you
> want to be wary. Often it's little things that make you stop and wonder
> what the fuck the thought process was behind the idea, but it can be the
> little things that make all the difference.
>
>> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
>> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
>> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
>> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that
>> she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any
>> of them drove.
>
> I can't see one in my future soon.
>
From the clown who was considering an *LDV* in his future - until he
was told they were a *Chinese* brand.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 31/8/2022 1:44 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 12:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 31/08/2022 10:20 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>>>
>>> **No idea.
>>>
>>>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere
>>>> near Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>>>
>>> **I've had a good look at the US built Tesla 3 and the Chinese Tesla
>>> 3. The Chinese built Tesla 3 is MUCH better than the US built one.
>>
>> Two things. Firstly, where did you see the US built 3?
>
> **Right here in beautiful Oyster Bay, NSW. A customer bought one a few
> years back. He showed me the panel faults and I had a sit/ride in the
> car. IT was very nice.
>
>  I thought all
>> model 3's sold in Australia were made in China/
>
> **Same customer dropped in last year. I asked how his Tesla was going.
> He explained that it was not the same car. I had a close look and, sure
> enough, panel fit and finish was much better than the old one. He
> reckons that the new car is better all 'round.
>
> Mind you: His second car is a late model Ferrari, so his yardstick is
> not brilliant, though he did mention that his Tesla 3 is quicker than
> his Ferrari.
>
>>
>> Secondly, that doesn't say a hell of a lot for the US built car, as
>> the build quality of the Chinese made Tesla 3 is *appalling*, and
>> quite easily the worst of any new car on the market that I've seen in
>> years :)
>
> **Probably.
>
>>
>>> So, the Chinese CAN build a decent car, when push comes to shove.
>>
>> It's not that simple unfortunately.
>>
>> Generally speaking the country of origin has nothing to do with
>> quality. It's who's *making* it that makes all the difference. For
>> example, Multi national companies use cheap Chinese labour to build
>> products to the multi-national company's standards every day of the
>> week and they turn out high end stuff that is fairly durable. You can
>> see perfect examples of that by walking into your local tool suppliers
>> and checking out the range of tradie's battery operated tools. They're
>> all made in China, and they're all mostly pretty good.
>
> **Funny you mention that. A couple of years back, I dropped $1,500.00 on
> a full set of Bosch, 18 Volt tools. I am very happy with the tools,
> except the angle grinder and the circular saw. It didn't dawn on me to
> check the country of origin, but did so recently. The circular saw and
> angle grinder are Chinese. All the other tools come from places like
> Germany, Hungary, Czech Republic and Malaysia. The rotary hammer drill
> (Germany) and the recpro saw (Hungary) are simply the best tools in
> their class (yes, my neighbour's Milwaukee models aren't as good, though
> they ain't too bad).
>
> Anyway, yes, you point is made. Provided the multi-national company
> maintains appropriate controls, Chinese products should be plenty good.
>
Benz made a few cars in the USA, like the ML series. They were a
reliability disaster, especially in their early days. Not enough
oversight on locally sourced bits and pieces was their main issue.
>>
>> Similarly, a *lot* of the established car manufacturers rely heavily
>> on Chinese sourced components. These components are usually built to
>> the established manufacturer's specs after the company themselves have
>> done the R&D, and they're just taking advantage of the cheap labour.
>>
>> But when the Chinese are in control of the whole picture it starts to
>> get a bit iffy and quite quickly. They're certainly on the improve,
>> but there's a hard limit to how far they can go and still retain their
>> pricing edge.
>
> **That would be a company/culture thing. If a Chinese company wanted to
> make the best product available, they probably could.

They will make it to whatever price point the customer wishes to pay -
and therein hangs a tail.
>
> And, here's another dirty little secret: Most of those fancy Swiss watch
> makers have their watches made in China. Not Rolex, but many of the
> others. They just screw the dial on, or do some other minor operation,
> so they can claim 'SWISS MADE' on the dial. The Swiss are very lax when
> it comes to the national origin of their products.
>

>>
>>> I have no idea if the latest MGs are any good or not. I suspect their
>>> QC may be improving rapidly. Dismissing Chinese cars may be dumb. Or
>>> not.
>>
>> What kind of comment is this? :)
>
> **It would be smart to CAREFULLY examine the latest products from MG,
> before claiming that they are crap.

Yes, I had a look at one a few years back. The fit and finish looked up
to standard. Longevity, that's another issue and, as I said at the time,
one needs to look at the 2018 builds in, say, 2024 when the time and
miles have clocked up.
>
>>
>>>> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
>>>> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
>>>> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
>>>> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said
>>>> that she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the
>>>> way any of them drove.
>>>
>>> **Fair enough. All the EV owners I've spoken to will never go back.
>>> Some are driving enthusiasts too.
>>
>> I've met a couple of Tesla owners now who both love the things,
>> despite them looking to my eyes like a pretty poorly built car with
>> the most ridiculously minimalist design imaginable. They really do
>> look like shit, and the quality of them looks like something made by
>> Tandy in the 1980's.
>
> **The Chinese Tesla 3 is WAY better than the US ones.
>
Yes, I have heard that too. Our lawyer has one parked in his driveway,
another in the garage.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 31/8/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>
> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by EOFY
> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
> Cupra.
>
>
> alvey
>
>
I'd be wary of buying any long term item from China. The support may not
exist in a few years. China is heading down the gurgler and that is
evident from a good many aspects, not the least of which is that many
companies are moving out of China and, in the cases where they need
cheap labour, are moving to places like India and Vietnam. Even Apple,
always convinced China was the best place to make products, is now
setting up production facilities in India. That is definitely a sign of
the times. China, it has to be noted, is no longer a *cheap* producer of
goods - labour costs soaring *faster* than any other country - bar none
- being but one reason. Just look at the economic data there. On top of
that they have a huge demographic disaster looming for which there is no
cure and will prevent them becoming the manufacturing powerhouse they
want to be. The one child policy has been little more than a demographic
time bomb which cannot be defused. Then there is the financial crisis in
China that is just getting worse and worse over time fueled for the most
part by the real estate *ponzi scheme* that is currently crashing down
around the CCP's ears. Then they have Covid coming back onshore to haunt
them, and haunt them it will. The moment there is a single case in a
given city, they lock down the entire city. That means *everything
stops*, factories, ports, the works. 15 million people at a time locked
in their homes, in some cases literally *welded* in. At any given time
around 10-25 Chinese megacities are in lockdown to varying degress and
that is having huge impacts on Chinese imports and exports. Don't expect
the lockdowns in China to ease any time soon - they have no other choice
because they have zero control of the current variations of Covid. Their
early vaccinations were, at best, 50% effective. Their current
vaccinations are 0% effective on recent Covid variants. Did I mention,
only a small percentage of Chinese are even vaccinated. Full on
lockdowns are the only means of Covid control available to the CCP. Then
there is the fact that China is *reliant* on imports of fuel, food and
raw materials. It is also reliant on exports of finished goods. Just
think what happens if China does decide to, say, invade Taiwan. One US
or Indian warship in the Straights of Malacca is all it will take to
totally cut off China's oil supplies from the Middle East. Other routes,
if possible, wouldn't be an option either as shipping companies, or
their insurers, would refuse to allow tankers to enter a war zone. We
are seeing that in the Ukraine invasion by Russia. Turmoil in the Middle
East would be enough to screw up China's oil imports. If anything major
happens to China's oil imports, China *deindustrialises* within 12
months. It's not for nothing that China has been trying to set up the
belt and roads initiative. That's not going so well now that the rest of
the world is waking up to China's debt trap diplomacy. The Chinese navy?
It's not able to project any power beyond what is known as the first
island chain, range at max 1,000 miles from Chinese ports. FFS, they
only have two jump carriers, one used to be a casino and was
resurrected, the other a Chinese copy of the first. They have *no
supercarriers*, the US has a dozen of those. China can't even *project
power* into the Pacific, much less guard their own vital shipping lanes.

There are no Chinese cars on my horizon - regardless of their quality.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 31/08/2022 1:44 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 12:11 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> Two things. Firstly, where did you see the US built 3?
>
> **Right here in beautiful Oyster Bay, NSW. A customer bought one a few
> years back. He showed me the panel faults and I had a sit/ride in the
> car. IT was very nice.
>
>  I thought all
>> model 3's sold in Australia were made in China/
>
> **Same customer dropped in last year. I asked how his Tesla was going.
> He explained that it was not the same car. I had a close look and, sure
> enough, panel fit and finish was much better than the old one. He
> reckons that the new car is better all 'round.

That ain't really saying much :)

> Mind you: His second car is a late model Ferrari, so his yardstick is
> not brilliant, though he did mention that his Tesla 3 is quicker than
> his Ferrari.

It might accelerate quicker, but around your average circuit the Ferrari
would leave it for dead.

>> Secondly, that doesn't say a hell of a lot for the US built car, as
>> the build quality of the Chinese made Tesla 3 is *appalling*, and
>> quite easily the worst of any new car on the market that I've seen in
>> years :)
>
> **Probably.
>
>>
>>> So, the Chinese CAN build a decent car, when push comes to shove.
>>
>> It's not that simple unfortunately.
>>
>> Generally speaking the country of origin has nothing to do with
>> quality. It's who's *making* it that makes all the difference. For
>> example, Multi national companies use cheap Chinese labour to build
>> products to the multi-national company's standards every day of the
>> week and they turn out high end stuff that is fairly durable. You can
>> see perfect examples of that by walking into your local tool suppliers
>> and checking out the range of tradie's battery operated tools. They're
>> all made in China, and they're all mostly pretty good.
>
> **Funny you mention that. A couple of years back, I dropped $1,500.00 on
> a full set of Bosch, 18 Volt tools. I am very happy with the tools,
> except the angle grinder and the circular saw. It didn't dawn on me to
> check the country of origin, but did so recently. The circular saw and
> angle grinder are Chinese. All the other tools come from places like
> Germany, Hungary, Czech Republic and Malaysia. The rotary hammer drill
> (Germany) and the recpro saw (Hungary) are simply the best tools in
> their class (yes, my neighbour's Milwaukee models aren't as good, though
> they ain't too bad).

I can say *kind* of the same thing with my Makita stuff. It's *all* made
in China, and the quality of the stuff is extremely varied. Most of it
is pretty decent, with things like saws, impact drivers and grinders
being as good as any others I've tried. Their drills, however, are
thoroughly hopeless. I have 3 or 4 Makita 18v drills varying in age and
model type, and they *all* fail after a relatively short working life.
They are absolutely pathetic to the point where I've vowed never to buy
another Makita drill despite already having a whole stack of Makita
tools, batteries and chargers.

The one exception to the "Made in China" Makita stuff that I have is an
18V 1\2 inch drive impact wrench that is made in Japan, and it is simply
phenomenal. The thing is virtually indestructible. I've thrown a barrage
of shit at it as well as dropped it from over head height onto a hard
concrete floor a number of times and there is nothing that stops it.
It's not the most powerful thing I've used, but it's reliability is
outstanding. Whether that has anything to do with it being made in Japan
or not I honestly can't say, and I think the only reason it was is
because it was the first of the model. Current ones are made in China
and are no less impressive as far as I'm aware.

> Anyway, yes, you point is made. Provided the multi-national company
> maintains appropriate controls, Chinese products should be plenty good.

They're more than capable of making high end products. It's whether or
not they *want* to that seems to be the thing....
>> Similarly, a *lot* of the established car manufacturers rely heavily
>> on Chinese sourced components. These components are usually built to
>> the established manufacturer's specs after the company themselves have
>> done the R&D, and they're just taking advantage of the cheap labour.
>>
>> But when the Chinese are in control of the whole picture it starts to
>> get a bit iffy and quite quickly. They're certainly on the improve,
>> but there's a hard limit to how far they can go and still retain their
>> pricing edge.
>
> **That would be a company/culture thing. If a Chinese company wanted to
> make the best product available, they probably could.

Most likely, but then the dilemma they face is in what end of the market
their strength lies. At the moment their strength is their cost
effectiveness. Chinese stuff is cheap, and the price point is reflected
in the quality of the product. That's their key advantage and what
separates them from the rest of the pack. If they start trying to take
on the established brands head on by building high quality gear then
they will certainly no longer be able to offer "cheapness" as part of
the deal and the majority of buyers will lean towards names they know.

> And, here's another dirty little secret: Most of those fancy Swiss watch
> makers have their watches made in China. Not Rolex, but many of the
> others. They just screw the dial on, or do some other minor operation,
> so they can claim 'SWISS MADE' on the dial. The Swiss are very lax when
> it comes to the national origin of their products.

The Swiss are very lax with a *lot* of things. Like hanging onto stolen
loot that doesn't belong to them for example....

>>
>>> I have no idea if the latest MGs are any good or not. I suspect their
>>> QC may be improving rapidly. Dismissing Chinese cars may be dumb. Or
>>> not.
>>
>> What kind of comment is this? :)
>
> **It would be smart to CAREFULLY examine the latest products from MG,
> before claiming that they are crap.

Well, you can do that, but that will only help you with the stuff you
can see. You can't look at a car and determine how reliable it will be.
MG's reputation for building quality cars is somewhat mixed at present,
and personally I wouldn't want to be a guinea pig for them.

>>> **Fair enough. All the EV owners I've spoken to will never go back.
>>> Some are driving enthusiasts too.
>>
>> I've met a couple of Tesla owners now who both love the things,
>> despite them looking to my eyes like a pretty poorly built car with
>> the most ridiculously minimalist design imaginable. They really do
>> look like shit, and the quality of them looks like something made by
>> Tandy in the 1980's.
>
> **The Chinese Tesla 3 is WAY better than the US ones.

It may be, but it still leaves a shit-tonne to be desired in my opinion.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 31/8/2022 10:20 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 31/08/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
>>>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>>>>
>>>> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
>>>> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by
>>>> EOFY
>>>> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
>>>> Cupra.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> alvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>
> **No idea.
>
>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
>> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>
> **I've had a good look at the US built Tesla 3 and the Chinese Tesla 3.
> The Chinese built Tesla 3 is MUCH better than the US built one.
>
> So, the Chinese CAN build a decent car, when push comes to shove. I have
> no idea if the latest MGs are any good or not. I suspect their QC may be
> improving rapidly. Dismissing Chinese cars may be dumb. Or not.
>
>> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
>> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
>> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
>> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that
>> she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any
>> of them drove.
>
> **Fair enough. All the EV owners I've spoken to will never go back. Some
> are driving enthusiasts too.
>
>
>
Mates brother who lives in California recently bought a Tesla, had it
for 3 days then took it back and replaced it with a hybrid, his reasons
were that it cost US$50.00 to recharge it so not much cheaper than a
petrol car to run and the main reason was if you didn't have access to a
fast charger it took too long to charge.
Opinions on EV's seem to vary, friends have a Tesla Model 3 and think
its the greatest thing ever, son's mate has Hyundai Kona EV company car
and whilst he doesn't mind it he doesn't particularly like it either,
his wife has a new RAV 4 Hybrid and he thinks that its a far better option.
I've driven the Kona and first impression was that it was a good vehicle
but it was rather dull and for the $70k it cost I could think of many
other cars I'd buy before considering one.

--
Daryl

On 31/8/2022 11:24 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 31/08/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
>>>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>>>>
>>>> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
>>>> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by
>>>> EOFY
>>>> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
>>>> Cupra.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> alvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
>> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>
> **I have a Chinese designed and built amplifier on the bench right now.
> It was released to market in 2012. It was designed to compete with some
> of the best amps on the market. On the outside, it's pretty decent. On
> the inside, it's OK, but there are some build issues that I am unhappy
> with, but overall, it offers performance that would typically be matched
> by a Japanese/Euro/US built product at roughly 10 times the price. So,
> not too bad. By all reports, reliability of the amp has been excellent.
>
> Last week, I had a recent Chinese designed and built (as opposed to
> something from Sony/Panasonic/Whatever) DAC on the bench. Stunning
> quality. The chassis was milled from a solid lump of aluminium. All the
> screw holes matched up perfectly and build quality was as good as the
> best I've seen from anywhere on the planet. The cost? Approximately 25%
> of the cost of a similar item made in the US.
>
> The Chinese, like the Japanese way back, have improved the quality of
> many of their products significantly.
>
>
>
They certainly can make very good quality products but since their
"advantage" in the market is a cheap price quality and a low price don't
always go hand in hand so unless you have had experience with a
particular brand its a gamble.
I recently watched a Youtube video on whether or not anyone should buy a
Chinese ute, the biggest problem isn't the quality or the specs but lack
of dealer support in Australia, because they have sold so few it hasn't
been worth their while investing in the level of support that we come to
expect from the likes of Toyota and other volumes sellers.

--
Daryl

On 31/8/2022 11:52 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>
> Only time will tell.
>
>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
>> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>
> So would I.
>
> The Chinese have come a long way in a short time, but they still have
> some considerable way to go before they can be considered a legitimate
> purchase prospect in my opinion. Apart from their reliability issues,
> which are less than stellar, their design quirks are enough to make you
> want to be wary. Often it's little things that make you stop and wonder
> what the fuck the thought process was behind the idea, but it can be the
> little things that make all the difference.
>
>> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
>> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
>> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
>> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that
>> she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any
>> of them drove.
>
> I can't see one in my future soon.
>
>
Me either but mostly due to price, an EV could replace what my MB does
but the MB owes me bugger all so no chance of finding an EV for the sort
of money the MB is worth.

--
Daryl

On 31/08/2022 1:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 31/8/2022 11:52 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>>>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>>>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>>
>> Only time will tell.
>>
>>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
>>> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>>
>> So would I.
>>
>> The Chinese have come a long way in a short time, but they still have
>> some considerable way to go before they can be considered a legitimate
>> purchase prospect in my opinion. Apart from their reliability issues,
>> which are less than stellar, their design quirks are enough to make
>> you want to be wary. Often it's little things that make you stop and
>> wonder what the fuck the thought process was behind the idea, but it
>> can be the little things that make all the difference.
>>
>>> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
>>> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
>>> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
>>> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that
>>> she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any
>>> of them drove.
>>
>> I can't see one in my future soon.
>>
>>
> Me either but mostly due to price, an EV could replace what my MB does
> but the MB owes me bugger all so no chance of finding an EV for the sort
> of money the MB is worth.
>

The MB is worth it's weight in scrap. Not that it matters.

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 31/08/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
>>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>>>
>>> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
>>> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by
>>> EOFY
>>> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
>>> Cupra.
>>>
>>>
>>> alvey
>>>
>>>
>>
>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>
>>
>>
> Looks OK but is it OK?
> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.

the build quality of the MG3 I had was as good as any other car make

> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that
> she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any
> of them drove.
>
>

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

On 1/9/2022 1:43 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 9:42 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 31/8/2022 9:26 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 31/08/2022 8:26 am, alvey wrote:
>>>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-mg-4-dual-motor-revealed/
>>>>
>>>> I'd pretty much decided on a Tesla next year, mainly because they were
>>>> about the only realistic EV option, but now, if this MG gets here by
>>>> EOFY
>>>> *and* reviews well, then there's now two more options. This MG4 and the
>>>> Cupra.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> alvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Looks nice. My biggest gripe with Tesla (and all other EV car
>>> makers, except Porsche) is that they don't have a station wagon in
>>> their line-up. The MG comes very close with that model.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Looks OK but is it OK?
>> The Chinese still have a long way to go before they get anywhere near
>> Japanese or Korean quality so I would be wary of them.
>
>
> the build quality of the MG3 I had was as good as any other car make
>
The MG3 I looked at here a few years ago seemed to be as well. Time will
tell as to their longevity - once they start clocking up the miles.
>
>> Interesting I was speaking to a friend of my wife's a few days ago
>> about EV's, her and her husband own several car dealerships (Toyota,
>> Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu and Suzuki) now run by their sons so they aren't
>> short of a dollar so they can afford any car they like, she said that
>> she had driven a few different EV's and just didn't like the way any
>> of them drove.
>>
>>
>

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)