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aus+uk / uk.rec.gardening / Re: Wildflower meadow

SubjectAuthor
* Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
+* Re: Wildflower meadowVir Campestris
|`- Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
+* Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
|+* Re: Wildflower meadowDavid Rance
||`* Re: Wildflower meadowThe Natural Philosopher
|| +* Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
|| |`* Re: Wildflower meadowThe Natural Philosopher
|| | `* Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
|| |  +- Re: Wildflower meadowThe Natural Philosopher
|| |  `- Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
|| `- Re: Wildflower meadowDavid Rance
|+* Re: Wildflower meadowChris Green
||`* Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
|| `* Re: Wildflower meadowChris Green
||  `- Re: Wildflower meadowThe Natural Philosopher
|`* Re: Wildflower meadowMartin Brown
| +- Re: Wildflower meadowThe Natural Philosopher
| +- Re: Wildflower meadowNick Maclaren
| `- Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
`* Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
 `* Re: Wildflower meadowJanet
  `* Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
   `* Re: Wildflower meadowJeff Layman
    `* Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns
     `* Re: Wildflower meadowJeff Layman
      `- Re: Wildflower meadowAndy Burns

Pages:12
Wildflower meadow

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Wildflower meadow
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 14:02:36 +0000
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 by: Andy Burns - Mon, 14 Feb 2022 14:02 UTC

I've got a corner of the garden that I'm going to set as wildflower meadow,
about 140 m^2 total. I don't want/need it to be a "lawn" by any stretch of the
imagination, even at times when flowers aren't growing, hoping it'll work with
the "hack it back once a year, then leave it alone" approach, and be dense
enough to keep the weeds away.

The land was previously a bit of a builder's dumping ground, last year all the
surface rubble was carted out by grab-lorry, weeds killed off with glyphosate,
dead stalks hacked down by brush-cutter and left to break down (might have been
better to rake the stalks away, but wasn't done) the ground has since been
rotavated which I think found all the remaining buried bricks and concrete, I'm
planning to leave it until end or March or so, spraying off any weeds that show
themselves, then give it a rough raking over.

I've purchased a variety of packs of mixed wildflower seed, which themselves are
a combination of perennial and annual (including yellow rattle) but without
partner grass, about 350g which ought to be a slight overkill at 2g/m^2, and
will get some sort of measured seed dispenser.

Now I'm wondering whether I ought to be setting a partner grass with it after
all? Mainly I'm still thinking not to ... any thoughts?

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: vir.camp...@invalid.invalid (Vir Campestris)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 21:35:18 +0000
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 by: Vir Campestris - Tue, 15 Feb 2022 21:35 UTC

On 14/02/2022 14:02, Andy Burns wrote:
> Now I'm wondering whether I ought to be setting a partner grass with it
> after all?  Mainly I'm still thinking not to ... any thoughts?

I'll be amazed if no grass turns up.

Give it a year and see what happens.

Andy

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 08:01:02 +0000
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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 08:01 UTC

Vir Campestris wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Now I'm wondering whether I ought to be setting a partner grass with it after
>> all?  Mainly I'm still thinking not to ... any thoughts?
>
> I'll be amazed if no grass turns up.

I'm sure it will

> Give it a year and see what happens.

I'll be amazed if weeds don't turn up as well!

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 10:07:27 +0000
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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 10:07 UTC

Chris Hogg wrote:

> My understanding of a wildflower meadow is that it requires fairly
> poor soil. This prevents some of the more aggressive weeds from
> getting a strong hold and crowding out the weaker, possibly more
> desirable flowers.

That does seem to be the majority opinion, and it is/was poorish soil, likely
having broken-up the surface will improve it.

> ISTR that the way to start is to strip off the top
> few inches of soil and dispose of it (which you may have already done
> by the sound of it). This takes away all the vigorous and aggressive
> weed seeds, and then sow the bare soil with fresh wildflower seed.
> Lots of advice herehttps://tinyurl.com/yblyz84n

I've been reading various info on them for at least a year.

However for every opinion such as requiring poor soil, needing to be set in
autumn so the seeds feel a frost, stripping off topsoil, taking several years to
establish, there's a contrary opinion from someone who establishes meadows for a
living ...

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: david.ra...@SPAMOFF.invalid (David Rance)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 10:47:55 +0000
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 by: David Rance - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 10:47 UTC

On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 10:07:27 Andy Burns wrote:

>Chris Hogg wrote:
>
>> My understanding of a wildflower meadow is that it requires fairly
>> poor soil. This prevents some of the more aggressive weeds from
>> getting a strong hold and crowding out the weaker, possibly more
>> desirable flowers.
>
>That does seem to be the majority opinion, and it is/was poorish soil,
>likely having broken-up the surface will improve it.
>
>> ISTR that the way to start is to strip off the top
>> few inches of soil and dispose of it (which you may have already done
>> by the sound of it). This takes away all the vigorous and aggressive
>> weed seeds, and then sow the bare soil with fresh wildflower seed.
>> Lots of advice herehttps://tinyurl.com/yblyz84n
>
>I've been reading various info on them for at least a year.
>
>However for every opinion such as requiring poor soil, needing to be
>set in autumn so the seeds feel a frost, stripping off topsoil, taking
>several years to establish, there's a contrary opinion from someone who
>establishes meadows for a living ...

In France I've noticed wildflower meadows suddenly appearing when the
field, presumably, was lying fallow. The following year crops were sown
as usual, so it does look as though a wildflower meadow can be
established very quickly.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: cl...@isbd.net (Chris Green)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:08:13 +0000
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 by: Chris Green - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:08 UTC

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Chris Hogg wrote:
>
> > My understanding of a wildflower meadow is that it requires fairly
> > poor soil. This prevents some of the more aggressive weeds from
> > getting a strong hold and crowding out the weaker, possibly more
> > desirable flowers.
>
> That does seem to be the majority opinion, and it is/was poorish soil, likely
> having broken-up the surface will improve it.
>
> > ISTR that the way to start is to strip off the top
> > few inches of soil and dispose of it (which you may have already done
> > by the sound of it). This takes away all the vigorous and aggressive
> > weed seeds, and then sow the bare soil with fresh wildflower seed.
> > Lots of advice herehttps://tinyurl.com/yblyz84n
>
> I've been reading various info on them for at least a year.
>
> However for every opinion such as requiring poor soil, needing to be set in
> autumn so the seeds feel a frost, stripping off topsoil, taking several years to
> establish, there's a contrary opinion from someone who establishes meadows for a
> living ...

We have some paddocks, occasionally used for grazing, but one in
particular hasn't been grazed for many years. Just topping it once a
year has produced what seems to me to be a pretty good 'meadow'.
There's a wide variety of flowers growing there and, as a result,
quite a surprising variety of butterflies including blues, hairstreaks
and skippers as well as the commoner satyrids and vanessids.

Our soil is very sandy so I suppose that does qualify as 'poor'.

--
Chris Green
·

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:46:48 +0000
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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:46 UTC

Chris Green wrote:

> We have some paddocks, occasionally used for grazing, but one in
> particular hasn't been grazed for many years. Just topping it once a
> year has produced what seems to me to be a pretty good 'meadow'.
> There's a wide variety of flowers growing there and, as a result,
> quite a surprising variety of butterflies

Sounds good, anything that avoids the "left for the weeds" look. Not many
butterflies apart from cabbage whites last year, and didn't see any Cinnabar
moths which I had past two years, maybe due to less ragwort which I don't mind a
few of putting in an appearance (the neighbour no longer rents out his field for
horse grazing)

> Our soil is very sandy so I suppose that does qualify as 'poor'.

Generally the land is sandy/gravelly, but when rotavating some of it turned out
more clayey in places than expected.

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: cl...@isbd.net (Chris Green)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 12:01:31 +0000
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 by: Chris Green - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 12:01 UTC

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Chris Green wrote:
>
> > We have some paddocks, occasionally used for grazing, but one in
> > particular hasn't been grazed for many years. Just topping it once a
> > year has produced what seems to me to be a pretty good 'meadow'.
> > There's a wide variety of flowers growing there and, as a result,
> > quite a surprising variety of butterflies
>
> Sounds good, anything that avoids the "left for the weeds" look. Not many
> butterflies apart from cabbage whites last year, and didn't see any Cinnabar
> moths which I had past two years, maybe due to less ragwort which I don't mind a
> few of putting in an appearance (the neighbour no longer rents out his field for
> horse grazing)
>
I guess it's taken a few years of topping once or twice a year to get
to the state it's in now. I must admit I was pleasantly surprised
when I spent a bit of time last summer 'butterfly spotting' to see
what a variety there was there.

> > Our soil is very sandy so I suppose that does qualify as 'poor'.
>
> Generally the land is sandy/gravelly, but when rotavating some of it turned out
> more clayey in places than expected.
>
If you dig ours it has a layer of 'topsoil' but within a foot or so
you come to what is basically just sand. Where no topsoil has
developed (under pine trees for example) there's just sand and very
little else, except pine needles.

--
Chris Green
·

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 13:46:43 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 13:46 UTC

On 16/02/2022 10:47, David Rance wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 10:07:27 Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>
>>> My understanding of a wildflower meadow is that it requires fairly
>>> poor soil. This prevents some of the more aggressive weeds from
>>> getting a strong hold and crowding out the weaker, possibly more
>>> desirable flowers.
>>
>> That does seem to be the majority opinion, and it is/was poorish soil,
>> likely having broken-up the surface will improve it.
>>
>>> ISTR that the way to start is to strip off the top
>>> few inches of soil and dispose of it (which you may have already done
>>> by the sound of it). This takes away all the vigorous and aggressive
>>> weed seeds, and then sow the bare soil with fresh wildflower seed.
>>> Lots of advice herehttps://tinyurl.com/yblyz84n
>>
>> I've been reading various info on them for at least a year.
>>
>> However for every opinion such as requiring poor soil, needing to be
>> set in autumn so the seeds feel a frost, stripping off topsoil, taking
>> several years to establish, there's a contrary opinion from someone
>> who establishes meadows for a living ...
>
> In France I've noticed wildflower meadows suddenly appearing when the
> field, presumably, was lying fallow. The following year crops were sown
> as usual, so it does look as though a wildflower meadow can be
> established very quickly.
>
> David
>
Farmer her simply ploughed it up, sowed appropriate gummint approved
'wildflower mix' and collected his 'eco bonus'. I thought it a waste of
time and money. So did he.

I have a 'wildflower meadow'. I simply don't mow it till autumn. Full of
cowslips, and some bulbs that strayed in.

What weeds - er, flowers - you get depends on what's around and the soil
type. bare soil is liked by poppies for example.

Cowslips and primroses take a bit longer to establish.
Bulbs - snowdrops and bluebells - will propagate slowly and cover large
areas.

Just chuck seed down, mow it once a year and see what happens. Add bulbs
to state for spring colour

--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 13:51:54 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 13:51 UTC

On 16/02/2022 12:01, Chris Green wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Chris Green wrote:
>>
>>> We have some paddocks, occasionally used for grazing, but one in
>>> particular hasn't been grazed for many years. Just topping it once a
>>> year has produced what seems to me to be a pretty good 'meadow'.
>>> There's a wide variety of flowers growing there and, as a result,
>>> quite a surprising variety of butterflies
>>
>> Sounds good, anything that avoids the "left for the weeds" look. Not many
>> butterflies apart from cabbage whites last year, and didn't see any Cinnabar
>> moths which I had past two years, maybe due to less ragwort which I don't mind a
>> few of putting in an appearance (the neighbour no longer rents out his field for
>> horse grazing)
>>
> I guess it's taken a few years of topping once or twice a year to get
> to the state it's in now. I must admit I was pleasantly surprised
> when I spent a bit of time last summer 'butterfly spotting' to see
> what a variety there was there.

Been topping my area once a year since 2000, and adding odds and ends.
It seems to have acquired a badger.
>
>>> Our soil is very sandy so I suppose that does qualify as 'poor'.
>>
>> Generally the land is sandy/gravelly, but when rotavating some of it turned out
>> more clayey in places than expected.
>>
> If you dig ours it has a layer of 'topsoil' but within a foot or so
> you come to what is basically just sand. Where no topsoil has
> developed (under pine trees for example) there's just sand and very
> little else, except pine needles.
>
In my case, make that 3 ft of clay and chalk after that.
Great for cowslips. Apparently they are a rare protected species. Not in
my garden...

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 14:01:05 +0000
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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 14:01 UTC

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> What weeds - er, flowers - you get depends on what's around and the soil type.
> bare soil is liked by poppies for example.

Certainly I find poppies like freshly disturbed ground, I like a few of them,
and had some unusual colours last year, but I don't like it when poppies
dominate, or anything else really.

> Cowslips and primroses take a bit longer to establish.
> Bulbs - snowdrops and bluebells - will propagate slowly and cover large areas.

Not noticed any snowdrops in the past 3 years, but did notice about half a dozen
clusters of them last week, will try to transplant them as they won't survive
where they are.

> Just chuck seed down, mow it once a year and see what happens.

That's the plan.

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 14:17:42 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 14:17 UTC

On 16/02/2022 14:01, Andy Burns wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> What weeds - er, flowers - you get depends on what's around and the
>> soil type. bare soil is liked by poppies for example.
>
> Certainly I find poppies like freshly disturbed ground, I like a few of
> them, and had some unusual colours last year, but I don't like it when
> poppies dominate, or anything else really.
>
>> Cowslips and primroses take a bit longer to establish.
>> Bulbs - snowdrops and bluebells - will propagate slowly and cover
>> large areas.
>
> Not noticed any snowdrops in the past 3 years, but did notice about half
> a dozen clusters of them last week, will try to transplant them as they
> won't survive where they are.
>
I seem to be inundated with them. I like them a lot. Also snowflakes.

Plenty of daffs poking up, too.

>> Just chuck seed down, mow it once a year and see what happens.
>
> That's the plan.

Cf Sellar and Yeatman's 'Garden Rubbish' , on getting grass to grow -
simply buy a large pair of shoes and stand idly by and let the grass
grow under your feet...

--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

― Confucius

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:14:01 +0000
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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:14 UTC

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Not noticed any snowdrops
>
> I seem to be inundated with them. I like them a lot. Also snowflakes.
> Plenty of daffs poking up, too.

I'm due (eventually) to plant a mixture of a couple of thousand
snowdrops/aconite/glory-of-the-snow for winter flowering and a similar number of
crocus/daffs/bluebells/wood-anemone for spring flowering under an existing copse
area.

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:16:51 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:16 UTC

On 16/02/2022 15:14, Andy Burns wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Not noticed any snowdrops
>>
>> I seem to be inundated with them. I like them a lot. Also snowflakes.
>> Plenty of daffs poking up, too.
>
> I'm due (eventually) to plant a mixture of a couple of thousand
> snowdrops/aconite/glory-of-the-snow for winter flowering and a similar
> number of crocus/daffs/bluebells/wood-anemone for spring flowering under
> an existing copse area.
>
>
Truly beautiful. I went fairly mad with daffs two years ago and am
reaping the rewards

This year I'll go for tulips perhaps and move some of the snowdrops

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

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Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:34:49 +0000
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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:34 UTC

Chris Hogg wrote:

> Snowdrops and winter aconites are best planted/moved 'in the green',
> i.e. when they are in full growth, i.e. about now. Planting dry bulbs
> as bought in garden centres is never very successful.

Bit expensive for that qty at garden centre prices, Gee Tee bulbs are in my old
stomping-ground and at least sell snowdrops in the green by the thousand rather
than by the dozen ... maybe next year ... or just maybe I can get my finger out ...

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From: david.ra...@SPAMOFF.invalid (David Rance)
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Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 11:09:44 +0000
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 by: David Rance - Thu, 17 Feb 2022 11:09 UTC

On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 13:46:43 The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>On 16/02/2022 10:47, David Rance wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 10:07:27 Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>
>>>> My understanding of a wildflower meadow is that it requires fairly
>>>> poor soil. This prevents some of the more aggressive weeds from
>>>> getting a strong hold and crowding out the weaker, possibly more
>>>> desirable flowers.
>>>
>>> That does seem to be the majority opinion, and it is/was poorish
>>>soil, likely having broken-up the surface will improve it.
>>>
>>>> ISTR that the way to start is to strip off the top
>>>> few inches of soil and dispose of it (which you may have already done
>>>> by the sound of it). This takes away all the vigorous and aggressive
>>>> weed seeds, and then sow the bare soil with fresh wildflower seed.
>>>> Lots of advice herehttps://tinyurl.com/yblyz84n
>>>
>>> I've been reading various info on them for at least a year.
>>>
>>> However for every opinion such as requiring poor soil, needing to be
>>>set in autumn so the seeds feel a frost, stripping off topsoil,
>>>taking several years to establish, there's a contrary opinion from
>>>someone who establishes meadows for a living ...
>> In France I've noticed wildflower meadows suddenly appearing when
>>the field, presumably, was lying fallow. The following year crops
>>were sown as usual, so it does look as though a wildflower meadow can
>>be established very quickly.
>> David
>>
>Farmer her simply ploughed it up, sowed appropriate gummint approved
>'wildflower mix' and collected his 'eco bonus'. I thought it a waste of
>time and money. So did he.

And so, I think, do the French farmers as I haven't seen it for a few
years now. Pity, because I thought it looked quite pretty. But then,
agricultural land isn't there to look pretty.
>
>I have a 'wildflower meadow'. I simply don't mow it till autumn. Full
>of cowslips, and some bulbs that strayed in.

The neighbour across the road from here has a small patch in front of
his house which he treats in the same way, i.e. mows it once a year.
Doesn't have the same effect as the French ones because all he gets are
cowslips.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:36:11 +0000
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 by: Martin Brown - Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:36 UTC

On 16/02/2022 10:07, Andy Burns wrote:
> Chris Hogg wrote:
>
>> My understanding of a wildflower meadow is that it requires fairly
>> poor soil. This prevents some of the more aggressive weeds from
>> getting a strong hold and crowding out the weaker, possibly more
>> desirable flowers.
>
> That does seem to be the majority opinion, and it is/was poorish soil,
> likely having broken-up the surface will improve it.

I think it is more not having excessively fertile soil. Lawns tend to
get swamped with high nitrogen feeds to keep them nice and green. There
was even a US brand called ChemLawn (now greenwashed to a new name). It
did/does exactly what it says on the tin.

>> ISTR that the way to start is to strip off the top
>> few inches of soil and dispose of it (which you may have already done
>> by the sound of it). This takes away all the vigorous and aggressive
>> weed seeds, and then sow the bare soil with fresh wildflower seed.
>> Lots of advice herehttps://tinyurl.com/yblyz84n
>
> I've been reading various info on them for at least a year.
>
> However for every opinion such as requiring poor soil, needing to be set
> in autumn so the seeds feel a frost, stripping off topsoil, taking
> several years to establish, there's a contrary opinion from someone who
> establishes meadows for a living ...

I think it is a bit luck of the draw. Some seed sold as wildflower
meadow is better suited to warmer climes like France where some of the
commercial seed is grown. If you get the right mix for the UK it seems
to do OK provided that the soil isn't too nitrogen rich. Just watch out
for the most common weeds and zap them before they set seed.

The things that do well will colonise the patch and those that dislike
the conditions will die out after a couple of seasons. Beware of the odd
plant that is a thug (where you do need to zap most of its seed heads).

Various poppies can be a bit too effective at mounting a takeover each
plant produces a heck of lot of seeds left to its own devices.

Centranus ruber aka red valerian is in that category too. It will grow
almost anywhere given half a chance and makes copious seed. Worth
growing mainly because it brings in loads of butterflies and if you are
lucky hummingbird hawkmoths.

Getting it to stay in balance is more of a problem if one thing really
goes for it. Fox & cubs (Pilosella aurantiaca) seems to thrive on heavy
clay here. Again it does so well it has to be manually suppressed to
give other things a chance.

If you have previously been fertilizing the lawn every year it will take
a while for the nitrogen levels to be low enough for wildflowers to
thrive. Parasitic yellow rattle will help slow the grass down a bit too
(preferably sown in October).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
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Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:49:21 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:49 UTC

On 17/02/2022 13:36, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 16/02/2022 10:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>
>>> My understanding of a wildflower meadow is that it requires fairly
>>> poor soil. This prevents some of the more aggressive weeds from
>>> getting a strong hold and crowding out the weaker, possibly more
>>> desirable flowers.
>>
>> That does seem to be the majority opinion, and it is/was poorish soil,
>> likely having broken-up the surface will improve it.
>
> I think it is more not having excessively fertile soil. Lawns tend to
> get swamped with high nitrogen feeds to keep them nice and green. There
> was even a US brand called ChemLawn (now greenwashed to a new name). It
> did/does exactly what it says on the tin.
>
>>> ISTR that the way to start is to strip off the top
>>> few inches of soil and dispose of it (which you may have already done
>>> by the sound of it). This takes away all the vigorous and aggressive
>>> weed seeds, and then sow the bare soil with fresh wildflower seed.
>>> Lots of advice herehttps://tinyurl.com/yblyz84n
>>
>> I've been reading various info on them for at least a year.
>>
>> However for every opinion such as requiring poor soil, needing to be
>> set in autumn so the seeds feel a frost, stripping off topsoil, taking
>> several years to establish, there's a contrary opinion from someone
>> who establishes meadows for a living ...
>
> I think it is a bit luck of the draw. Some seed sold as wildflower
> meadow is better suited to warmer climes like France where some of the
> commercial seed is grown. If you get the right mix for the UK it seems
> to do OK provided that the soil isn't too nitrogen rich. Just watch out
> for the most common weeds and zap them before they set seed.
>
> The things that do well will colonise the patch and those that dislike
> the conditions will die out after a couple of seasons. Beware of the odd
> plant that is a thug (where you do need to zap most of its seed heads).
>
> Various poppies can be a bit too effective at mounting a takeover each
> plant produces a heck of lot of seeds left to its own devices.
>
> Centranus ruber aka red valerian is in that category too. It will grow
> almost anywhere given half a chance and makes copious seed. Worth
> growing mainly because it brings in loads of butterflies and if you are
> lucky hummingbird hawkmoths.
>
> Getting it to stay in balance is more of a problem if one thing really
> goes for it. Fox & cubs (Pilosella aurantiaca) seems to thrive on heavy
> clay here. Again it does so well it has to be manually suppressed to
> give other things a chance.
>
> If you have previously been fertilizing the lawn every year it will take
> a while for the nitrogen levels to be low enough for wildflowers to
> thrive. Parasitic yellow rattle will help slow the grass down a bit too
> (preferably sown in October).
>
All of the above seems true for my patch of 'rough'

Valerian, thistle, rattle, cowslips, some bulbs that seem to do OK, big
ox-eye daisy sort of things. Vetch I think as well - little purply
flowers. Anything perennial gets smashed in the autumn. The rest grows
as they make it, or not.

--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 16:48:52 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Old Fogies Society
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Thu, 17 Feb 2022 16:48 UTC

In article <sulj0k$oc$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I think it is more not having excessively fertile soil. Lawns tend to
>get swamped with high nitrogen feeds to keep them nice and green. There
>was even a US brand called ChemLawn (now greenwashed to a new name). It
>did/does exactly what it says on the tin.

Yes. And a huge proportion of lawn fertilisers sold in the UK include
a weedkiller for borad-leafed plants. Bad News.

Despite common claims, cowslips do NOT require poor soil - what they can't
handle is long, lush grass. There are a lot of other meadow plants that
are like that, many of which are happy with mowing (if it's not too short),
cattle grazing etc.

There are a few plants that do need poor soil, because they can't handle
even that level of competition.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 17:14:00 +0000
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 by: Andy Burns - Thu, 17 Feb 2022 17:14 UTC

Martin Brown wrote:

> If you have previously been fertilizing the lawn every year

shouldn't be a problem, it wasn't a lawn previously, just some rough ground.

> it will take a while
> for the nitrogen levels to be low enough for wildflowers to thrive. Parasitic
> yellow rattle will help slow the grass down a bit too (preferably sown in October).

The seed mixtures I've bought do include yellow rattle, which I understand needs
to re-seed every year, so down give it the autumn cut until that's had time to
dry out and drop its seed.

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 08:31:04 +0100
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 by: Andy Burns - Tue, 10 May 2022 07:31 UTC

Chris Hogg wrote:

> My understanding of a wildflower meadow is that it requires fairly
> poor soil. This prevents some of the more aggressive weeds from
> getting a strong hold and crowding out the weaker, possibly more
> desirable flowers.

Having rotavated it back in Feb when it was quite wet, it set into hard clods,
only a few weeds poked through and no "bad" ones, so I sprayed them off a couple
of weeks ago.

We didn't really get much frost to break the soil down, and it would break my
back to rake it all, so I hired a power raker which, despite being quite a beast
to control, did an excellent job, it brought a few stones to the surface which I
suppose I ought to pick out.

Looking like we might get some rain tomorrow, so should be ready to sow the
seeds one evening. I have bought a hand-held spreader and a bag of kilned sand
to mix with the seeds, still not sure how easy it'll be gauging just 2 g/m^2

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: nob...@home.com (Janet)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 14:03:26 +0100
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 by: Janet - Tue, 10 May 2022 13:03 UTC

In article <jduilpFmrv8U1@mid.individual.net>, usenet@andyburns.uk
says...
>
> Chris Hogg wrote:
>
> > My understanding of a wildflower meadow is that it requires fairly
> > poor soil. This prevents some of the more aggressive weeds from
> > getting a strong hold and crowding out the weaker, possibly more
> > desirable flowers.
>
> Having rotavated it back in Feb when it was quite wet, it set into hard clods,
> only a few weeds poked through and no "bad" ones, so I sprayed them off a couple
> of weeks ago.
>
> We didn't really get much frost to break the soil down, and it would break my
> back to rake it all, so I hired a power raker which, despite being quite a beast
> to control, did an excellent job, it brought a few stones to the surface which I
> suppose I ought to pick out.
>
> Looking like we might get some rain tomorrow, so should be ready to sow the
> seeds one evening. I have bought a hand-held spreader and a bag of kilned sand
> to mix with the seeds, still not sure how easy it'll be gauging just 2 g/m^2

Mix the WF seed well with a larger weight of sand . Then you can
easily judge the even coverage of sand (light colour) scattered over a
square metre of earth (darker.)

Use 4 garden canes tied together in a metre square and move it along as
you seed each sq.m.

Janet.

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 06:59:49 +0100
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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 11 May 2022 05:59 UTC

Janet wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Looking like we might get some rain tomorrow

yay ...

>> so should be ready to sow the seeds one evening. I have bought a hand-held
>> spreader and a bag of kilned sand to mix with the seeds, still not sure how
>> easy it'll be gauging just 2 g/m^2
>
> Mix the WF seed well with a larger weight of sand .

yes, I'd already bought some sand, still a bit worried that the sand and smaller
seeds will sink in the hopper leaving the larger seeds floating on top and not
spreading evenly.

> Use 4 garden canes tied together in a metre square and move it along as
> you seed each sq.m.

Not very keen on marking out 140 squares individually, was hoping to get a
correct spreading rate and do it at walking pace, probably in two directions to
smooth out errors.

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 07:38:10 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Wed, 11 May 2022 06:38 UTC

On 11/05/2022 06:59, Andy Burns wrote:

> yes, I'd already bought some sand, still a bit worried that the sand and smaller
> seeds will sink in the hopper leaving the larger seeds floating on top and not
> spreading evenly.

It's more expensive than sand, but crushed bran breakfast cereal will
have the same density as seeds - more or less. You could try mixing the
seeds with that.

--

Jeff

Re: Wildflower meadow

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Wildflower meadow
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 08:31:27 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <t5flki$3s1$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 11 May 2022 07:31 UTC

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> a bit worried that the sand and smaller seeds will sink in the hopper
>> leaving the larger seeds floating on top and not spreading evenly.
>
> It's more expensive than sand, but crushed bran breakfast cereal will have the
> same density as seeds - more or less. You could try mixing the seeds with that.

£1.29 for 750g from H&B, I've got 350g of seed, so that'd allow about a 2:1 mix
with the seeds, thanks ... will probably attract more birds!

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