https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jan/04/giles-calls-for-systemic-change-in-english-cricket-after-ashes-defeat

He had a lot to say about other things (eg covid, scheduling), but I'll focus on what he said about County Cricket.

1. There are systemic issues that need addressing
2. a struggle to bridge the gap between county cricket and the top level
3. 1 away Ashes win (2010/11) in 34 years is not good enough
4. Habitual losing was accepted in the 90s, but today's leadership wants/expects better
5. short term changes (eg firing coaches, new captain), will do nothing but kick the can down the road
6. Yay! A review will happen!
7. Over the past 12 months performances has been the least of their concerns, sadly
8. Like many, blames our current woes on our batting

On County Cricket;
1. the dearth of Test-quality batsmen, spinners, and fast bowlers (87mph+) is caused by the domestic system as a whole
2. if the current leadership is to be blamed, then so should many previous ones
3. CC doesn't prepare us for away Ashes
4. "What we play, when we play, on what [pitches] we play – that’s a collective responsibility. It’s up to us as ECB but also a conversation to have with the counties"

my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket

1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings. In CC it's ~25 innings. They play even less in NZ.
2. matches are of low quality and (deliberately) low effort.

There have ALWAYS been too many CC matches per season. So pushing the red-ball game early and later to let white-ball be played in the prime summer months is no excuse. It just makes bad things worse.
The games are low effort to let players play the huge number of games. They'd burn out or get injured if they played hard/intense cricket for a full CC season.
The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC for a decade. Not just play... thrive. This shouldn't happen.
Medium pace bowling is easier than fast bowling. That's why there's a love affair with medium pace bowling in England. "He's a young Angus Fraser" is a curse, not a blessing. You're all suffering from Dibbly Dobbler Stockholm Syndrome.
To aid the dibbly dobbler medium pacers (the only type of bowler they have in their squad/s), CC groundsmen have favoured green tops. Slow and low. These pitches don't encourage fast bowling, and they don't encourage spin.
OMG!? the result? English batsmen can't face quick bowling, and the English spinners are shit.

CC needs to;
1. play less games
2. make fast pitches (easier if play less games means less early/late cricket)
3. stop celebrating when 45 year olds do well in CC. It's a joke
4. stop worshiping dibbly dobbler medium pacemen

or

5. stop caring about England's results. Let the Ashes end. It's done as a spectacle. No one will care, and no one will pay big $$$ to sponsor/broadcast it.

On Tuesday, January 4, 2022 at 11:13:25 PM UTC, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
>
> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings. In CC it's ~25 innings. They play even less in NZ.
> 2. matches are of low quality and (deliberately) low effort.
>
> There have ALWAYS been too many CC matches per season. So pushing the red-ball game early and later to let white-ball be played in the prime summer months is no excuse. It just makes bad things worse.
> The games are low effort to let players play the huge number of games. They'd burn out or get injured if they played hard/intense cricket for a full CC season.
> The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC for a decade. Not just play... thrive. This shouldn't happen.
> Medium pace bowling is easier than fast bowling. That's why there's a love affair with medium pace bowling in England. "He's a young Angus Fraser" is a curse, not a blessing. You're all suffering from Dibbly Dobbler Stockholm Syndrome.
> To aid the dibbly dobbler medium pacers (the only type of bowler they have in their squad/s), CC groundsmen have favoured green tops. Slow and low. These pitches don't encourage fast bowling, and they don't encourage spin.
> OMG!? the result? English batsmen can't face quick bowling, and the English spinners are shit.
>
> CC needs to;
> 1. play less games
> 2. make fast pitches (easier if play less games means less early/late cricket)
> 3. stop celebrating when 45 year olds do well in CC. It's a joke
> 4. stop worshiping dibbly dobbler medium pacemen
>
> or
>
> 5. stop caring about England's results. Let the Ashes end. It's done as a spectacle. No one will care, and no one will pay big $$$ to sponsor/broadcast it.

" Just keep the patient away from English cricketer, nurse... RH

On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 3:00:56 AM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> " Just keep the patient away from English cricketer, nurse... RH

Change is coming to County Cricket. You can't stop it.
The #1 reason is going to be "over-abundance of medium pacers".

On Tuesday, 4 January 2022 at 23:13:25 UTC, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:

> 5. stop caring about England's results. Let the Ashes end. It's done as a spectacle. No one will care, and no one will pay big $$$ to sponsor/broadcast it.

Make it 3 Tests... England aren't worth 5.

You can even sense the apathy in Aus - as much as giving the Poms a good hiding is a national pastime, when it's a no-contest it loses some of its edge...

On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 4:34:25 AM UTC+10, richsdi...@gmail.com wrote:
> You can even sense the apathy in Aus - as much as giving the Poms a good hiding is a national pastime, when it's a no-contest it loses some of its edge...

One of the Guardian cricket writers suggested making the Men's Ashes like the Women's... a combo of Tests, ODO, and T20.

I love the Ashes, and hope it doesn't change. But I do wonder how long it will last whilst England basically don't bother to show up in Australia.

On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
> my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
>
> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.

I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.

> In CC it's ~25 innings.

In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.

> The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC for a decade.

Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
(and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).

--
David North

On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 4:45:31 PM UTC, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
> > my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
> >
> > 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
> I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
> short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
> 7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.
> > In CC it's ~25 innings.
> In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
> of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
> 27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
> the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.
> > The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC for a decade.
> Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
> due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
> of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
> than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
> (and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
> Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).
>
> --
> David North

We need to see how Oz fair the next time they come to England RH

On 06/01/2022 17:03, RH wrote:
> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 4:45:31 PM UTC, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>> On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
>>> my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
>>>
>>> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
>> I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
>> short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
>> 7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.
>>> In CC it's ~25 innings.
>> In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
>> of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
>> 27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
>> the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.
>>> The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC for a decade.
>> Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
>> due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
>> of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
>> than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
>> (and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
>> Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).
>
> We need to see how Oz fair the next time they come to England RH

I don't expect they'll do as badly as England have done in this series.
They've only lost the first 3 Tests in England once, and that was 135
years ago.

--
David North

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:45:28 +0000, David North
<nospam@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
>> my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
>>
>> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
>
>I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
>short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
>7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.
>
>> In CC it's ~25 innings.
>
>In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
>of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
>27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
>the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.
>
>> The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC for a decade.
>
>Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
>due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
>of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
>than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
>(and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
>Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).

He's also liable to drag up the freak Darren Stevens, whose longevity
in f-c cricket would have been considered remarkable in the 60s, let
alone now. I don't see how it's an indictment of a whole system that
one player in 50 years carries on performing as an all-rounder at a
high level well into his 40s.

There were other players who went on for ages in times past, but they
were just about all wily old spinners as athletic as Rahkeem Cornwall.
And it's stretching things a bit to call them ancient Test players
when they only ever appeared a few times, like, say, Eddie Hemmings.

And for reasons I outlined at some length a couple of days ago,
drawing any conclusions whatsoever from the 2020 and 2021 CC seasons
other than that some cricket was played is fraught with risk because
the teams were so badly disrupted.

Of course, pointing out that jzf is basing his conclusions on a wildly
distorted view of reality will lead him to conclude that we believe
that no changes are necessary or even desirable, which I'd presume to
be flat wrong.

Lots of things could be done, and some definitely will be, although
no-one here has the slightest influence on which. When they decide
what they're going to do, it will be possible to assess whether they
will improve matters, in what ways and by how much.

I've been pointing out what can't be done because there seems to have
been a great deal of comment around which effectively laments that we
don't produce Australian cricketers. What we have to do is work out
what we can produce and how best to go about that, not turn things
upside down in the pursuit of an impossibly misguided objective.

Cheers,

Mike

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:45:28 +0000, David North
<nospam@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
>> my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
>>
>> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
>
>I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
>short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
>7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.
>
>> In CC it's ~25 innings.
>
>In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
>of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
>27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
>the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.

How many matches in the SS/CC are rendered inconclusive by the
weather? It's debatable, for instance, what a first innings which
starts on day four is going to tell anyone about anything, or how much
effort anyone is putting in.

Cheers,

Mike

On Thursday, 6 January 2022 at 17:04:00 UTC, RH wrote:

> We need to see how Oz fair the next time they come to England RH

Of course, Australia they tend to fair much worse playing away than England do in Ashes tests....LOL

On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 5:39:01 PM UTC, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:45:28 +0000, David North
> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
> >> my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
> >>
> >> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
> >
> >I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
> >short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
> >7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.
> >
> >> In CC it's ~25 innings.
> >
> >In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
> >of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
> >27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
> >the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.
> >
> >> The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC for a decade.
> >
> >Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
> >due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
> >of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
> >than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
> >(and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
> >Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).
> He's also liable to drag up the freak Darren Stevens, whose longevity
> in f-c cricket would have been considered remarkable in the 60s, let
> alone now. I don't see how it's an indictment of a whole system that
> one player in 50 years carries on performing as an all-rounder at a
> high level well into his 40s.
>
> There were other players who went on for ages in times past, but they
> were just about all wily old spinners as athletic as Rahkeem Cornwall.
> And it's stretching things a bit to call them ancient Test players
> when they only ever appeared a few times, like, say, Eddie Hemmings.
>
> And for reasons I outlined at some length a couple of days ago,
> drawing any conclusions whatsoever from the 2020 and 2021 CC seasons
> other than that some cricket was played is fraught with risk because
> the teams were so badly disrupted.
>
> Of course, pointing out that jzf is basing his conclusions on a wildly
> distorted view of reality will lead him to conclude that we believe
> that no changes are necessary or even desirable, which I'd presume to
> be flat wrong.
>
> Lots of things could be done, and some definitely will be, although
> no-one here has the slightest influence on which. When they decide
> what they're going to do, it will be possible to assess whether they
> will improve matters, in what ways and by how much.
>
> I've been pointing out what can't be done because there seems to have
> been a great deal of comment around which effectively laments that we
> don't produce Australian cricketers. What we have to do is work out
> what we can produce and how best to go about that, not turn things
> upside down in the pursuit of an impossibly misguided objective.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike#

OK off t we we go on 60s aged pace bowlers

Wilf Wooller played unit he was 48

Trevor Bailey played unto he was 44
Les Jackson played until he was 44
Derek Shackleton played until he was 44

Both played for England when past 40

Alec Bedse aged played until he was 42

Next!

RH

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 10:01:55 -0800 (PST), Richard Dixon
<richsdixon1975@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, 6 January 2022 at 17:04:00 UTC, RH wrote:
>
>> We need to see how Oz fair the next time they come to England RH
>
>Of course, Australia they tend to fair much worse playing away than England do in Ashes tests....LOL
>

What a not innovative way to address the current England cricket
problem. Boo hoo the series is finished because we can't win sob, sob.
How about winning and saving matches now instead of waiting until
Australia are the tourists?

max.it

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 18:46:34 +0000, max.it <max@tea.time> wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 10:01:55 -0800 (PST), Richard Dixon
><richsdixon1975@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, 6 January 2022 at 17:04:00 UTC, RH wrote:
>>
>>> We need to see how Oz fair the next time they come to England RH
>>
>>Of course, Australia they tend to fair much worse playing away than England do in Ashes tests....LOL
>>
>
>What a not innovative way to address the current England cricket
>problem. Boo hoo the series is finished because we can't win sob, sob.
>How about winning and saving matches now instead of waiting until
>Australia are the tourists?

Is anyone saying that would be a bad idea? With the weather forecast
for the SCG, it ought to be within England's abilities to bat for long
enough not to lose, although I'm extremely sceptical that there's a
way of fashioning a win from this position.

There may be many who lack any confidence that it's possible, of
course.

Cheers,

Mike

On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 18:58:31 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 18:46:34 +0000, max.it <max@tea.time> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 10:01:55 -0800 (PST), Richard Dixon
>><richsdixon1975@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thursday, 6 January 2022 at 17:04:00 UTC, RH wrote:
>>>
>>>> We need to see how Oz fair the next time they come to England RH
>>>
>>>Of course, Australia they tend to fair much worse playing away than England do in Ashes tests....LOL
>>>
>>
>>What a not innovative way to address the current England cricket
>>problem. Boo hoo the series is finished because we can't win sob, sob.
>>How about winning and saving matches now instead of waiting until
>>Australia are the tourists?
>
>Is anyone saying that would be a bad idea? With the weather forecast
>for the SCG, it ought to be within England's abilities to bat for long
>enough not to lose, although I'm extremely sceptical that there's a
>way of fashioning a win from this position.
>
>There may be many who lack any confidence that it's possible, of
>course.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike

I have the feeling that Henderson would 'bring the lads home' rather
than lose by # - 0.

That England rotation policy is something that could do with a look
at, it doesn't work well in a world of testing and isolating. As far
as that goes, deal with the cricket problems at the cricket ground
because problems won't feel the same or even be the same a month or
two later. I don't think that post series reviews are all that
valuable, certainly a lot less valuable than the lunchtime chat or end
of day observations or a bolloxing at the time from the skipper.
I remember QDK being interviewed after a match or maybe a days play.
He was only very young and Smith was captain. Whatever had happened
Smith was in the dressing room reading the riot act and QDK looked
terrified about whatever was going on. He looked like he wanted the
interview to last longer.
Maybe we should be worried about the lack of complete bastards in the
game.

A working dog that has lost it's prey drive quickly becomes an
expensive to keep and own shite machine.
You could say that about sports teams too especially association
football, maybe cricket.

max.it

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In message <tmeetghver8lrmd2slmnt15t7rtam0rhhl@4ax.com>, Mike Holmans
<spam@jackalope.uk> writes
>With the weather forecast for the SCG, it ought to be within England's
>abilities to bat for long enough not to lose, although I'm extremely
>sceptical that there's a way of fashioning a win from this position.

I thought the forecast was supposed to be better for the remaining three
days, but maybe it's been revised and now looks worse than it did?

>
>There may be many who lack any confidence that it's possible, of
>course.

Having just watched the Day 2 highlights, I'm worried by the amount of
uneven bounce that is already increasingly apparent.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
> > my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
> >
> > 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
> I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
> short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
> 7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.
> > In CC it's ~25 innings.
> In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
> of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
> 27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
> the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.
> > The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC for a decade.
> Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
> due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
> of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
> than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
> (and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
> Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).

The years I least blame for England's malaise are the past few years.
You need to look back further. Anderson's first year in CC was in 2002.
Every year since then has influenced his development. NB: Anderson is a great! He's achieved that despite having to play in CC. I've mentioned him as he's one of the oldest.

Take my favourite cricketing year, 2005. I don't believe England winning is not a counter argument to my position on the quality of English cricket. I'm more concerned with trends, not highlights.
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=2462;type=tournament
Top run scorers in CC played ~28 innings each.
SS that year?
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=2449;type=tournament
~19 innings each.

Look into players like Chanderpaul, Bopara, Ramprakash (over a decade between last Test and last CC game).

On 06/01/2022 16:45, David North wrote:
> On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
>> my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
>>
>> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
>
> I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
> short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
> 7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.
>
>> In CC it's ~25 innings.
>
> In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
> of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
> 27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
> the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.
>
>> The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to
>> continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC
>> for a decade.
>
> Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
> due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
> of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
> than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
> (and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
> Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).
>
Boycott was 37 when he gave up his self- imposed exile, and returned to
Test cricket. He made a fair few centuries after that. I wonder if Cook
is aware of this?

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 9:47:34 AM UTC, steve hague wrote:
> On 06/01/2022 16:45, David North wrote:
> > On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
> >> my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
> >>
> >> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
> >
> > I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
> > short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
> > 7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.
> >
> >> In CC it's ~25 innings.
> >
> > In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
> > of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
> > 27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
> > the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.
> >
> >> The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to
> >> continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC
> >> for a decade.
> >
> > Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
> > due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
> > of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
> > than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
> > (and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
> > Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).
> >
> Boycott was 37 when he gave up his self- imposed exile, and returned to
> Test cricket. He maade a fair few centuries after that. I wonder if Cook
> is aware of this?

A brave decision for a 37 year old because he had to face Lilee, Thompson, Pascoe, , Holding, Marshall, Garner, Croft amongst other pacemen before he finished with Tests in 1981.

He continued to score heavily for Yorkshire until he was not given a contract by Yorkshire when aged 46.

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 9:28:32 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> He continued to score heavily for Yorkshire until he was not given a contract by Yorkshire when aged 46.

Maybe he wasn't racist enough for YCCC

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 9:47:34 AM UTC, steve hague wrote:
> On 06/01/2022 16:45, David North wrote:
> > On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
> >> my thoughts
> >>
> >> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.

I'm sure the ECB would agree. They've been trying to reduce the
nos of games, [i think there will be less next year with the return
to 2 divs?] and they have little interest in the CC cos its a financial
loser, so most of the games have been shunted to either end
of the season when conditions heavily favour the seamers.

But by instituting a 2 divisional system they've tried for years
to put in place a top flite of the best sides with the idea
of raising the standard with relegation and promotion to
make the games more competitive. And as they have now
restored the divisional structure they must think its
working or the best option.

Clearly when we had Strauss Cook Trott KP Colly & Prior,
we had a much better batting top order, although that team [w/o Strauss]
also lost 5-0. And with exception of Root, we havnt managed
to find replacements from the CC in its present structure since 2013.

> >
> >> The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to
> >> continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC
> >> for a decade.
> >
> > Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
> > due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
> > of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
> > than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
> > (and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
> > Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).
> >
> Boycott was 37 when he gave up his self- imposed exile, and returned to
> Test cricket. He made a fair few centuries after that. I wonder if Cook
> is aware of this?

i dont think Cook has any interest to return. I think hes happy doing the comm.
He went out on a high, why would he want to come back to a hopeless
team?

mike

On 06/01/2022 18:04, RH wrote:
> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 5:39:01 PM UTC, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:45:28 +0000, David North
>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
>>>> my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
>>>>
>>>> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
>>>
>>> I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
>>> short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
>>> 7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.
>>>
>>>> In CC it's ~25 innings.
>>>
>>> In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
>>> of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
>>> 27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
>>> the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.
>>>
>>>> The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC for a decade.
>>>
>>> Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
>>> due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
>>> of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
>>> than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
>>> (and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
>>> Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).
>> He's also liable to drag up the freak Darren Stevens, whose longevity
>> in f-c cricket would have been considered remarkable in the 60s, let
>> alone now. I don't see how it's an indictment of a whole system that
>> one player in 50 years carries on performing as an all-rounder at a
>> high level well into his 40s.
>>
>> There were other players who went on for ages in times past, but they
>> were just about all wily old spinners as athletic as Rahkeem Cornwall.
>> And it's stretching things a bit to call them ancient Test players
>> when they only ever appeared a few times, like, say, Eddie Hemmings.
>>
>> And for reasons I outlined at some length a couple of days ago,
>> drawing any conclusions whatsoever from the 2020 and 2021 CC seasons
>> other than that some cricket was played is fraught with risk because
>> the teams were so badly disrupted.
>>
>> Of course, pointing out that jzf is basing his conclusions on a wildly
>> distorted view of reality will lead him to conclude that we believe
>> that no changes are necessary or even desirable, which I'd presume to
>> be flat wrong.
>>
>> Lots of things could be done, and some definitely will be, although
>> no-one here has the slightest influence on which. When they decide
>> what they're going to do, it will be possible to assess whether they
>> will improve matters, in what ways and by how much.
>>
>> I've been pointing out what can't be done because there seems to have
>> been a great deal of comment around which effectively laments that we
>> don't produce Australian cricketers. What we have to do is work out
>> what we can produce and how best to go about that, not turn things
>> upside down in the pursuit of an impossibly misguided objective.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Mike#
>
> OK off t we we go on 60s aged pace bowlers
>
> Wilf Wooller played unit he was 48

He played 1 CC match in 1962, when he was 49. He was 47 when he played
his previous match.

> Trevor Bailey played unto he was 44

43, and in that season's CC he made 359 runs at 19.94 and took 12
wickets at 31.83.

> Les Jackson played until he was 44

42

> Derek Shackleton played until he was 44
>
> Both played for England when past 40

Jackson played 1 Test when he was 40; Shackleton was 39 and 14 days when
his final Test finished.

> Alec Bedse aged played until he was 42
>
> Next!

So you found one player who was still playing at or past the age Stevens
was last season, and he was nowhere near as successful.

Stevens in the 2021 CC made 650 runs @ 43.33 and took 39 wickets @ 18.58.

Wooller in the 1960s made 571 CC runs @ 21.96 and took 13 wickets @ 34.23.

--
David North

On 06/01/2022 22:39, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>> On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
>>> my thoughts on the steaming pile of shit that is called County Cricket
>>>
>>> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
>> I assume that you're looking at the 2020/21 season, which was two rounds
>> short, presumably due to COVID. In the last unaffected season, 2018/19,
>> 7 of the top 10 run-scorers played 20 innings.
>>> In CC it's ~25 innings.
>> In this year's CC (when the normal number of matches was played), the 7
>> of the top 10 run-scorers who played most innings played between 21 and
>> 27, with an average among those 7 of just under 24, so the difference in
>> the number of innings between CC and SS isn't that great.
>>> The games are also low effort to let ancient/retired Test players to continue to play. Players retire from Tests and continue to play CC for a decade.
>> Apart from Marcus Trescothick, who retired from international cricket
>> due to mental illness, name them. The only ex-England player I can think
>> of who appeared in this year's CC and had retired from Tests, rather
>> than being dropped, is Alastair Cook, and he only retired 3 years ago
>> (and he's just turned 37, so hardly ancient - Shaun Marsh is 38, and
>> Peter Siddle 37, and both still playing SS).
>
> The years I least blame for England's malaise are the past few years.
> You need to look back further. Anderson's first year in CC was in 2002.
> Every year since then has influenced his development. NB: Anderson is a great! He's achieved that despite having to play in CC. I've mentioned him as he's one of the oldest.
>
> Take my favourite cricketing year, 2005. I don't believe England winning is not a counter argument to my position on the quality of English cricket. I'm more concerned with trends, not highlights.
> https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=2462;type=tournament
> Top run scorers in CC played ~28 innings each.

Sure - there have been two matches fewer since Div 1 was reduced to 8
teams in 2017, so things have already moved somewhat in the direction
you are advocating. Not surprisingly, the typical number of innings
reduced by around 4.

> SS that year?
> https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=2449;type=tournament
> ~19 innings each.
>
> Look into players like Chanderpaul,

Last CC match 3 years after his last Test.

> Bopara,

7 years, but he was never a regular Test player, and was only 27 when he
played his last Test.

Trent Copeland has appeared in the current SS season, over 10 years
after his last Test, and is older than Bopara was when he last played in
the CC.

> Ramprakash (over a decade between last Test and last CC game).

Yes, but (as with Bopara) he hadn't retired from Tests AFAIAA, and there
was speculation about a possible recall as late as 2009 (over 7 years
after he was last picked).

--
David North

On 07/01/2022 14:51, mike wrote:
> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 9:47:34 AM UTC, steve hague wrote:
>> On 06/01/2022 16:45, David North wrote:
>>> On 04/01/2022 23:13, jack fredricks wrote:
>>>> my thoughts
>>>>
>>>> 1. too many matches. Top run scorers in SS play ~14 innings.
>
> I'm sure the ECB would agree. They've been trying to reduce the
> nos of games, [i think there will be less next year with the return
> to 2 divs?]

No, the number of matches will be the same (14 per county).

https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/2288824/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-2022-lv-insurance-county-championship

--
David North