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aus+uk / uk.rec.gardening / Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons

SubjectAuthor
* Dicotyledons & TricotyledonsMartin Brown
+- Re: Dicotyledons & TricotyledonsChris Hogg
`* Re: Dicotyledons & TricotyledonsStewart Robert Hinsley
 `* Re: Dicotyledons & TricotyledonsJeff Layman
  `* Re: Dicotyledons & TricotyledonsMartin Brown
   `* Re: Dicotyledons & TricotyledonsJeff Layman
    `- Re: Dicotyledons & TricotyledonsStewart Robert Hinsley

1
Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 19:20:31 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Fri, 13 May 2022 18:20 UTC

Every now and then in plants with enormous numbers of seedlings I see a
first seed leaf "pair" that is in fact a triplicate. They don't seem to
survive for very long. I have seen it with sycamore and most recently
with beetroot. I'll try to grow it on to see if it looks different.

Has anyone else noticed this and grown one to the point of setting seed.
Do the progeny show any predisposition to be tricots rather than dicots.

It seems fairly rare. It is only the fourth time I have seen one that
has survived past the initial germination phase in decades. Where there
should be biaxial symmetry there is now triaxial symmetry.

Has anyone else seen this and grown such a plant with unusual symmetry?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons

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From: me...@privacy.net (Chris Hogg)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 19:25:55 +0100
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 by: Chris Hogg - Fri, 13 May 2022 18:25 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 19:20:31 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>Every now and then in plants with enormous numbers of seedlings I see a
>first seed leaf "pair" that is in fact a triplicate. They don't seem to
>survive for very long. I have seen it with sycamore and most recently
>with beetroot. I'll try to grow it on to see if it looks different.
>
>Has anyone else noticed this and grown one to the point of setting seed.
>Do the progeny show any predisposition to be tricots rather than dicots.
>
>It seems fairly rare. It is only the fourth time I have seen one that
>has survived past the initial germination phase in decades. Where there
>should be biaxial symmetry there is now triaxial symmetry.
>
>Has anyone else seen this and grown such a plant with unusual symmetry?

I should hang on to a leaf or two - they may be lucky, like a
four-leaf clover! :-)

--
Chris

Gardening in West Cornwall, very mild, sheltered
from the West, but open to the North and East.

Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons

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From: {$new...@meden.demon.co.uk (Stewart Robert Hinsley)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 23:10:52 +0100
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 by: Stewart Robert Hinsl - Sat, 14 May 2022 22:10 UTC

On 13/05/2022 19:20, Martin Brown wrote:
> Every now and then in plants with enormous numbers of seedlings I see a
> first seed leaf "pair" that is in fact a triplicate. They don't seem to
> survive for very long. I have seen it with sycamore and most recently
> with beetroot. I'll try to grow it on to see if it looks different.
>
> Has anyone else noticed this and grown one to the point of setting seed.
> Do the progeny show any predisposition to be tricots rather than dicots.
>
> It seems fairly rare. It is only the fourth time I have seen one that
> has survived past the initial germination phase in decades. Where there
> should be biaxial symmetry there is now triaxial symmetry.
>
> Has anyone else seen this and grown such a plant with unusual symmetry?
>

Many years ago I had a snapdragon with 3 leaves at each node.

--
SRH

Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 10:00:54 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sun, 15 May 2022 09:00 UTC

On 14/05/2022 23:10, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 19:20, Martin Brown wrote:
>> Every now and then in plants with enormous numbers of seedlings I see a
>> first seed leaf "pair" that is in fact a triplicate. They don't seem to
>> survive for very long. I have seen it with sycamore and most recently
>> with beetroot. I'll try to grow it on to see if it looks different.
>>
>> Has anyone else noticed this and grown one to the point of setting seed.
>> Do the progeny show any predisposition to be tricots rather than dicots.
>>
>> It seems fairly rare. It is only the fourth time I have seen one that
>> has survived past the initial germination phase in decades. Where there
>> should be biaxial symmetry there is now triaxial symmetry.
>>
>> Has anyone else seen this and grown such a plant with unusual symmetry?
>>
>
> Many years ago I had a snapdragon with 3 leaves at each node.

Many years ago in a packet I found a walnut which was symmetrically
divided into three sections, rather than the usual two (I've still got
it). How could that have happened? I've never seen any other nut -
walnut or otherwise - like that.

--

Jeff

Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 10:04:47 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Martin Brown - Mon, 16 May 2022 09:04 UTC

On 15/05/2022 10:00, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 23:10, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
>> On 13/05/2022 19:20, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> Every now and then in plants with enormous numbers of seedlings I see a
>>> first seed leaf "pair" that is in fact a triplicate. They don't seem to
>>> survive for very long. I have seen it with sycamore and most recently
>>> with beetroot. I'll try to grow it on to see if it looks different.
>>>
>>> Has anyone else noticed this and grown one to the point of setting seed.
>>> Do the progeny show any predisposition to be tricots rather than dicots.
>>>
>>> It seems fairly rare. It is only the fourth time I have seen one that
>>> has survived past the initial germination phase in decades. Where there
>>> should be biaxial symmetry there is now triaxial symmetry.
>>>
>>> Has anyone else seen this and grown such a plant with unusual symmetry?
>>>
>>
>> Many years ago I had a snapdragon with 3 leaves at each node.
>
> Many years ago in a packet I found a walnut which was symmetrically
> divided into three sections, rather than the usual two (I've still got
> it). How could that have happened? I've never seen any other nut -
> walnut or otherwise - like that.

I don't know how it happens or why.

I have only seen a handful of these oddities in many decades of seed
raising that survived to flowering. Frequency is about once per decade
and I raise a fair number of seeds every year.

Problem is whatever causes it they seem to not be as healthy as their
normal versions. Sometimes the leaves damage each other other times they
damp off more easily and so never become mature plants.

Next time I'm near a suitable botanist I will ask them. I presume that
some how it spontaneously does have 3 seed leaves and is tricotyledon.

Google seems to show that it is relatively common in solanaceae.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tricotyledon

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 11:40:15 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Mon, 16 May 2022 10:40 UTC

On 16/05/2022 10:04, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 15/05/2022 10:00, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 14/05/2022 23:10, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2022 19:20, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>> Every now and then in plants with enormous numbers of seedlings I see a
>>>> first seed leaf "pair" that is in fact a triplicate. They don't seem to
>>>> survive for very long. I have seen it with sycamore and most recently
>>>> with beetroot. I'll try to grow it on to see if it looks different.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone else noticed this and grown one to the point of setting seed.
>>>> Do the progeny show any predisposition to be tricots rather than dicots.
>>>>
>>>> It seems fairly rare. It is only the fourth time I have seen one that
>>>> has survived past the initial germination phase in decades. Where there
>>>> should be biaxial symmetry there is now triaxial symmetry.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone else seen this and grown such a plant with unusual symmetry?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Many years ago I had a snapdragon with 3 leaves at each node.
>>
>> Many years ago in a packet I found a walnut which was symmetrically
>> divided into three sections, rather than the usual two (I've still got
>> it). How could that have happened? I've never seen any other nut -
>> walnut or otherwise - like that.
>
> I don't know how it happens or why.
>
> I have only seen a handful of these oddities in many decades of seed
> raising that survived to flowering. Frequency is about once per decade
> and I raise a fair number of seeds every year.
>
> Problem is whatever causes it they seem to not be as healthy as their
> normal versions. Sometimes the leaves damage each other other times they
> damp off more easily and so never become mature plants.
>
> Next time I'm near a suitable botanist I will ask them. I presume that
> some how it spontaneously does have 3 seed leaves and is tricotyledon.
>
> Google seems to show that it is relatively common in solanaceae.
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=tricotyledon

My trillium seedlings look somewhat like this:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/swampr0se/6931218576>

They did not appear to go through a monocot stage, but perhaps I missed it.

--

Jeff

Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons

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From: {$new...@meden.demon.co.uk (Stewart Robert Hinsley)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Dicotyledons & Tricotyledons
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 19:59:31 +0100
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 by: Stewart Robert Hinsl - Mon, 16 May 2022 18:59 UTC

On 16/05/2022 11:40, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
> My trillium seedlings look somewhat like this:
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/swampr0se/6931218576>
>
> They did not appear to go through a monocot stage, but perhaps I missed it.

An overview of Trilium (ovatum) development.

https://tryonfriends.org/stories-of-tryon-creek/2021/3/26/trillium-the-princess-of-the-forest

(It says that they not only go through a monocotyledonous stage, but
also a a monophyllous stage, before obtaining the mature stage of a
single whorl of 3 flowers. I wouldn't be surprised if the species you're
growing skips the monophyllous stage, but I suspect that you just missed
the monocotyledons, perhaps because it's one of the Trillium species
with hypogeal germination, in which the cotyledon remains below the
surface of the soil.)

--
SRH

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