https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2022/01/25/david-gower-exclusive-felt-back-tv-avoid-saying-batsman-batter/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

David Gower was back behind the microphone for a major England Test series, and reminding the cricket-loving public that, while effortless versatility remains his trademark, there are occasionally still sharp teeth beneath the languid exterior. It was the same when he had a cricket bat in his hand and it was certainly thus last Sunday when England completed a feeble series-long batting performance by crumbling to 124 in just 38.5 overs.

“It’s been horribly obvious to people watching from a distance that Eoin Morgan has everything he wants with the white-ball team…but poor old Joe Root finds himself with people who aren’t available because, where are they?” Gower asked rhetorically.

“They are in the IPL. What good is that to English Test cricket? This is the oldest, most important form of the game. We need to defend it. We need an England team that plays it well - not languishing at the foot of the World Test Championship…”.....

Twitter certainly tells you that and, even amid the conversational commentary style, Gower retains a certain guard. “One of Richie Benaud’s great aphorisms was ‘engage brain before speaking’. It’s more true now than ever. If you are aware of social media - sometimes best not to be - you will realise you can get picked up for virtually anything.

“For instance, in the last couple of years, we are expected to use the word batter as opposed to batsman. I've actually spent more of my time saying ‘the next man in is’. As opposed to ‘the next batsman’, to avoid those that would criticise one for the simple.... finer point of whether you say batsman or batter. There are some trends worth fighting against and others you might as well just go with the flow.”

In message <1aa61fe9-e768-42cc-8474-1e7a4768881bn@googlegroups.com>, RH
<anywhere156@gmail.com> writes
[Gower said]
>“For instance, in the last couple of years, we are expected to use
>the word batter as opposed to batsman. I've actually spent more of my
>time saying ‘the next man in is’. As opposed to ‘the next
>batsman’, to avoid those that would criticise one for the simple...
>finer point of whether you say batsman or batter. There are some trends
>worth fighting against and others you might as well just go with the flow.”

I'd have thought that those offence-seeking people who object to calling
a male cricketer a "batsman" would object just as much to "next man in",
and would want it to be "next person in". So Gower may have failed to
dodge that particular bullet.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On 25/01/2022 10:27, John Hall wrote:
> In message <1aa61fe9-e768-42cc-8474-1e7a4768881bn@googlegroups.com>, RH
> <anywhere156@gmail.com> writes
> [Gower said]
>> “For instance, in the last couple of years, we are expected to use the
>> word batter as opposed to batsman. I've actually spent more of my time
>> saying ‘the next man in is’. As opposed to ‘the next batsman’, to
>> avoid those that would criticise one for the simple... finer point of
>> whether you say batsman or batter. There are some trends worth
>> fighting against and others you might as well just go with the flow.”
>
> I'd have thought that those offence-seeking people who object to calling
> a male cricketer a "batsman" would object just as much to "next man in",
> and would want it to be "next person in". So Gower may have failed to
> dodge that particular bullet.

Good point. If England are batting, he could say "next lamb to the
slaughter", although that would probably offend vegetarians. :(

--
David North

On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 1:58:24 PM UTC, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 25/01/2022 10:27, John Hall wrote:
> > In message <1aa61fe9-e768-42cc...@googlegroups.com>, RH
> > <anywh...@gmail.com> writes
> > [Gower said]
> >> “For instance, in the last couple of years, we are expected to use the
> >> word batter as opposed to batsman. I've actually spent more of my time
> >> saying ‘the next man in is’. As opposed to ‘the next batsman’, to
> >> avoid those that would criticise one for the simple... finer point of
> >> whether you say batsman or batter. There are some trends worth
> >> fighting against and others you might as well just go with the flow.”
> >
> > I'd have thought that those offence-seeking people who object to calling
> > a male cricketer a "batsman" would object just as much to "next man in",
> > and would want it to be "next person in". So Gower may have failed to
> > dodge that particular bullet.

yes hed be in trouble if he was to commentate on the womens ashes.
personally i've been saying batter for years, but someone on TMS,
probably tufnell, said everytime he heard batter, it reminded him of
fish and chips.

mike

In message <1bf190e5-2686-4aca-a3cc-f7393cb5fe68n@googlegroups.com>,
mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 1:58:24 PM UTC,
>nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>> On 25/01/2022 10:27, John Hall wrote:
>> > In message <1aa61fe9-e768-42cc...@googlegroups.com>, RH
>> > <anywh...@gmail.com> writes
>> > [Gower said]
>> >> “For instance, in the last couple of years, we are expected to use the
>> >> word batter as opposed to batsman. I've actually spent more of my time
>> >> saying ‘the next man in is’. As opposed to ‘the next batsman’, to
>> >> avoid those that would criticise one for the simple... finer point of
>> >> whether you say batsman or batter. There are some trends worth
>> >> fighting against and others you might as well just go with the flow.”
>> >
>> > I'd have thought that those offence-seeking people who object to calling
>> > a male cricketer a "batsman" would object just as much to "next man in",
>> > and would want it to be "next person in". So Gower may have failed to
>> > dodge that particular bullet.
>
>yes hed be in trouble if he was to commentate on the womens ashes.
>personally i've been saying batter for years, but someone on TMS,
>probably tufnell, said everytime he heard batter, it reminded him of
>fish and chips.

It reminds me of fish and chips too but, since we say bowler and not
bowlsman and wicketkeeper and not wicketkeepsman, it's hard to object to
"batter". (And fielder seems much more common than fieldsman.)
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <1aa61fe9-e768-42cc-8474-1e7a4768881bn@googlegroups.com>, RH
> <anywhere156@gmail.com> writes
> [Gower said]
>> “For instance, in the last couple of years, we are expected to use
>> the word batter as opposed to batsman. I've actually spent more of my
>> time saying ‘the next man in is’. As opposed to ‘the next
>> batsman’, to avoid those that would criticise one for the simple...
>> finer point of whether you say batsman or batter. There are some trends
>> worth fighting against and others you might as well just go with the flow.”
>
> I'd have thought that those offence-seeking people who object to calling
> a male cricketer a "batsman" would object just as much to "next man in",
> and would want it to be "next person in". So Gower may have failed to
> dodge that particular bullet.

Since TPTB have decided to borrow baseball's term for batsman, they can
just go on and borrow the terms for the next two in the order, "on deck"
and "in the hole".

--
Jeff

On 25/01/2022 16:15, John Hall wrote:
> In message <1bf190e5-2686-4aca-a3cc-f7393cb5fe68n@googlegroups.com>,
> mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>> On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 1:58:24 PM UTC,
>> nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 25/01/2022 10:27, John Hall wrote:
>>> > In message <1aa61fe9-e768-42cc...@googlegroups.com>, RH
>>> > <anywh...@gmail.com> writes
>>> > [Gower said]
>>> >> “For instance, in the last couple of years, we are expected to use
>>> the
>>> >> word batter as opposed to batsman. I've actually spent more of my
>>> time
>>> >> saying ‘the next man in is’. As opposed to ‘the next batsman’, to
>>> >> avoid those that would criticise one for the simple... finer point of
>>> >> whether you say batsman or batter. There are some trends worth
>>> >> fighting against and others you might as well just go with the flow.”
>>> >
>>> > I'd have thought that those offence-seeking people who object to
>>> calling
>>> > a male cricketer a "batsman" would object just as much to "next man
>>> in",
>>> > and would want it to be "next person in". So Gower may have failed to
>>> > dodge that particular bullet.
>>
>> yes hed be in trouble if he was to commentate on the womens ashes.
>> personally i've been saying batter for years, but someone on TMS,
>> probably tufnell, said everytime he heard batter, it reminded him of
>> fish and chips.
>
> It reminds me of fish and chips too but, since we say bowler and not
> bowlsman and wicketkeeper and not wicketkeepsman,

A wicketkeeper is occasionally called a gloveman, though (strangely not
glovesman, considering that they have two of them). I always thought
"batsman" and "fieldsman" derived from the nouns, rather than the verbs
- see, for example, groundsman, swordsman and woodsman, which clearly
don't derive from verbs. I suppose that would make a bowler a "ballsman" ...

--
David North

On 25/01/2022 21:26, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 20:38:42 +0000, David North
> <nospam@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 25/01/2022 16:15, John Hall wrote:
>>> In message <1bf190e5-2686-4aca-a3cc-f7393cb5fe68n@googlegroups.com>,
>
>>> It reminds me of fish and chips too but, since we say bowler and not
>>> bowlsman and wicketkeeper and not wicketkeepsman,
>>
>> A wicketkeeper is occasionally called a gloveman, though (strangely not
>> glovesman, considering that they have two of them). I always thought
>> "batsman" and "fieldsman" derived from the nouns
>
> So does a batsman have two bats? I suspect gloveman would be preferred
> to glovesman because it's slightly easier to say.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike

I suppose a batman would be too busy defending Gotham City against the
forces of evil to play cricket.

steve hague <stevehague82@gmail.com> wrote:
> I suppose a batman would be too busy defending Gotham City against the
> forces of evil to play cricket.

Or carrying his master up Mount Doom.

--
Jeff

In message <ssqs9e$1ut4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, steve hague
<stevehague82@gmail.com> writes
>On 25/01/2022 21:26, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 20:38:42 +0000, David North
>> <nospam@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 25/01/2022 16:15, John Hall wrote:
>>>> In message <1bf190e5-2686-4aca-a3cc-f7393cb5fe68n@googlegroups.com>,
>>
>>>> It reminds me of fish and chips too but, since we say bowler and
>>>>
>>>> bowlsman and wicketkeeper and not wicketkeepsman,
>>>
>>> A wicketkeeper is occasionally called a gloveman, though (strangely not
>>> glovesman, considering that they have two of them). I always thought
>>> "batsman" and "fieldsman" derived from the nouns
>> So does a batsman have two bats? I suspect gloveman would be
>>preferred
>> to glovesman because it's slightly easier to say.
>> Cheers,
>> Mike
>
>I suppose a batman would be too busy defending Gotham City against the
>forces of evil to play cricket.

Or in Britain, acting as a military officer's aide. I remember that
Digby was Colonel Dan Dare's batman in the Eagle comic strip.

I've always assumed that a batsman was so-called because he (or she)
bats, just as a fieldsman was called that because he fields.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 10:28:34 AM UTC, John Hall wrote:
> In message <ssqs9e$1ut4$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, steve hague
> <steveh...@gmail.com> writes
> >On 25/01/2022 21:26, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 20:38:42 +0000, David North
> >> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 25/01/2022 16:15, John Hall wrote:
> >>>> In message <1bf190e5-2686-4aca...@googlegroups.com>,
> >>
> >>>> It reminds me of fish and chips too but, since we say bowler and
> >>>>
> >>>> bowlsman and wicketkeeper and not wicketkeepsman,
> >>>
> >>> A wicketkeeper is occasionally called a gloveman, though (strangely not
> >>> glovesman, considering that they have two of them). I always thought
> >>> "batsman" and "fieldsman" derived from the nouns
> >> So does a batsman have two bats? I suspect gloveman would be
> >>preferred
> >> to glovesman because it's slightly easier to say.
> >> Cheers,
> >> Mike
> >
> >I suppose a batman would be too busy defending Gotham City against the
> >forces of evil to play cricket.
> Or in Britain, acting as a military officer's aide. I remember that
> Digby was Colonel Dan Dare's batman in the Eagle comic strip.
>
> I've always assumed that a batsman was so-called because he (or she)
> bats, just as a fieldsman was called that because he fields.
> --
> John Hall
> "Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
> But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
> Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

The Hampshire wicket keeper Walter Livesey was batman to the 3rd Baron Tennyson in WW1 and played under Tennyson's captaincy at Hampshire for many years after WW1.

RH

On 26/01/2022 10:22, John Hall wrote:
> [...] I remember that
> Digby was Colonel Dan Dare's batman in the Eagle comic strip.

I've been spending some of my time re-reading the books I
knew and loved [or otherwise] from childhood. They're a very mixed
bag. Dan Dare, I regret to say, really doesn't stand up [IMO, of
course]; stereotypical/token American, Frenchman, Lancastrian,
aunt-with-umbrella; rather feeble [to modern eyes] adventures;
Prof ["but, but, but, she's a /woman/"] Peabody for the asexual
sex interest; very wonky science. If you have rosy memories of
the strip, I suggest you keep them as memories!

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Lange

On Tuesday, 25 January 2022 at 21:26:44 UTC, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 20:38:42 +0000, David North
> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On 25/01/2022 16:15, John Hall wrote:
> >> In message <1bf190e5-2686-4aca...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> It reminds me of fish and chips too but, since we say bowler and not
> >> bowlsman and wicketkeeper and not wicketkeepsman,
> >
> >A wicketkeeper is occasionally called a gloveman, though (strangely not
> >glovesman, considering that they have two of them). I always thought
> >"batsman" and "fieldsman" derived from the nouns
> So does a batsman have two bats?

No, that's why I said "strangely" - the 's' is included in "batsman", who has one bat, but not in "gloveman", who has two gloves.

> I suspect gloveman would be preferred
> to glovesman because it's slightly easier to say.

Maybe.
--
David North

In message <6922f79e-b36a-4cd5-b17e-751f50df4cf8n@googlegroups.com>, RH
<anywhere156@gmail.com> writes
>On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 10:28:34 AM UTC, John Hall wrote:
>> In message <ssqs9e$1ut4$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, steve hague
>> <steveh...@gmail.com> writes
>> >On 25/01/2022 21:26, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 20:38:42 +0000, David North
>> >> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 25/01/2022 16:15, John Hall wrote:
>> >>>> In message <1bf190e5-2686-4aca...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >>
>> >>>> It reminds me of fish and chips too but, since we say bowler and
>> >>>>
>> >>>> bowlsman and wicketkeeper and not wicketkeepsman,
>> >>>
>> >>> A wicketkeeper is occasionally called a gloveman, though (strangely not
>> >>> glovesman, considering that they have two of them). I always thought
>> >>> "batsman" and "fieldsman" derived from the nouns
>> >> So does a batsman have two bats? I suspect gloveman would be
>> >>preferred
>> >> to glovesman because it's slightly easier to say.
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> Mike
>> >
>> >I suppose a batman would be too busy defending Gotham City against the
>> >forces of evil to play cricket.
>> Or in Britain, acting as a military officer's aide. I remember that
>> Digby was Colonel Dan Dare's batman in the Eagle comic strip.
>>
>> I've always assumed that a batsman was so-called because he (or she)
>> bats, just as a fieldsman was called that because he fields.
>
>The Hampshire wicket keeper Walter Livesey was batman to the 3rd
>Baron Tennyson in WW1 and played under Tennyson's captaincy at
>Hampshire for many years after WW1.
>
>RH

And this summer will mark the 100th anniversary of perhaps the most
remarkably county match of all time, in which Livsey played a pivotal
role:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_English_cricket_season#Notable_matches

"Warwickshire made 223 and then dismissed Hampshire for only 15,
Calthorpe taking 4/4 and Howell 6/7. Eight batsmen made ducks. Following
on, Hampshire did much better, but still seemed certain to lose at 274
for 8. George Brown with 172, and the captain's valet and wicket-keeper
Walter Livsey with 110 not out, took the total to 521. Warwickshire
needed 314 to win. Jack Newman and Alec Kennedy then bowled Hampshire to
a remarkable victory."
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

In message <ssre1s$i83$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
writes
>On 26/01/2022 10:22, John Hall wrote:
>> [...] I remember that
>> Digby was Colonel Dan Dare's batman in the Eagle comic strip.
>
> I've been spending some of my time re-reading the books I
>knew and loved [or otherwise] from childhood. They're a very mixed
>bag. Dan Dare, I regret to say, really doesn't stand up [IMO, of
>course]; stereotypical/token American, Frenchman, Lancastrian,
>aunt-with-umbrella; rather feeble [to modern eyes] adventures;
>Prof ["but, but, but, she's a /woman/"] Peabody for the asexual
>sex interest; very wonky science. If you have rosy memories of
>the strip, I suggest you keep them as memories!
>

A decade or so ago, I did buy a book collecting a couple of the stories.
Whilst your criticisms are valid, and Spacefleet was clearly closely
modelled on the RAF of the time, the quality of the artwork is so
exceptional that I enjoyed reading them. Fortunately, by the time I
started following the strip in about 1957 - and also in the collection
that I bought - the stereotypical American and Frenchman had been
dropped, and I don't think Digby's aunt featured either.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)