Any truth in that remark?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/60146427

I don't know about 2014 when Gurney was playing but the England death
bowling surely has been one of it's strong areas. Although and I may
be having false memories, but earlier in the T20 era death fielding
was more of a priority.

I'm not sure what Gurney is trying to say.

max.it

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On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:10:08 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:06:41 +0000, max.it <max@tea.time> wrote:
>
>>
>>Any truth in that remark?
>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/60146427
>>
>>
>>I don't know about 2014 when Gurney was playing but the England death
>>bowling surely has been one of it's strong areas. Although and I may
>>be having false memories, but earlier in the T20 era death fielding
>>was more of a priority.
>>
>>I'm not sure what Gurney is trying to say.
>
>That England's death bowling has been a weakness for some considerable
>time, which it has. It's been partly masked by Morgan's ability to win
>the toss and chase a lot.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike

Wonder what Jordan and Rashid think? Have they ever opened the bowling
in T20? Is death bowling delivering wide yorkers to tail enders?
Is it only a 2nd innings thing?
Ability to win the toss and chase a lot - of what, times or runs?

Them wee buns my mate left in were tasty. Nicely baked ;-)

max.it

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On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:28:06 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:24:44 +0000, max.it <max@tea.time> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:10:08 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:06:41 +0000, max.it <max@tea.time> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Any truth in that remark?
>>>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/60146427
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I don't know about 2014 when Gurney was playing but the England death
>>>>bowling surely has been one of it's strong areas. Although and I may
>>>>be having false memories, but earlier in the T20 era death fielding
>>>>was more of a priority.
>>>>
>>>>I'm not sure what Gurney is trying to say.
>>>
>>>That England's death bowling has been a weakness for some considerable
>>>time, which it has. It's been partly masked by Morgan's ability to win
>>>the toss and chase a lot.
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>
>>>Mike
>>
>>Wonder what Jordan and Rashid think?
>
>Jordan is the only one who has ever been a good death bowler, and he
>has learned those skills in IPL and other franchise leagues. Rashid
>tends to bowl overs 6, 8, 10 and another one, so I don't understand
>what relevance he has.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike

Rashid is a senior bowler on the team surely his opinion would be
relevant?

Anyway. Death bowling is a buzz word. It all depends on who has the
bat in their hand at the time. I said before many the time it's death
fielding that's important and you can add death batting to that too.
For me the idea of death bowling makes more sense in 50 overs
cricket.
The death of a T20 innings can easily be in the 6th over.
Gurney played two T20 matches for England but he's claiming that the
captain was negligent. Maybe the captain was negligent but who were
the death bowlers he neglected and what do they say?

Isn't there a saying about basketball that they play for hours but
it's only the last 90 seconds that count? Something like that.

max.it

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On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 19:45:21 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:54:39 +0000, max.it <max@tea.time> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:28:06 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
>>wrote:
>
>>>>>That England's death bowling has been a weakness for some considerable
>>>>>time, which it has. It's been partly masked by Morgan's ability to win
>>>>>the toss and chase....
>
>>
>>Anyway. Death bowling is a buzz word. It all depends on who has the
>>bat in their hand at the time.
>
>eg Carlos Brathwaite in the T20 WC Final when Stokes got pasted at the
>end.
>
>And many others over the last few years. England have a dismal record
>at defending 40 off three overs. They've been good enough at getting
>50 off the last three overs when chasing for it not to have been a
>major problem, but Morgan himself has said that it's an area of
>weakness that he now wants to improve on, so I don't really understand
>what you're on about.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike

Can you tell the difference between bowling and death bowling?
Maybe a standard model of death bowling needs to be defined. Since I
reckon bowling is just bowling and the type of bowling presented
depends on the person who is batting, regardlessof when during the
innings this is happening, I'll have to leave it to you to present the
definition.

max.it

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In message <povdvglac2te65v97dtieefee7m8j62d26@4ax.com>, Mike Holmans
<spam@jackalope.uk> writes
>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 20:37:53 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Death bowling is the last 3-4 overs of a T20 innings. Batters behave
>>differently in that phase of the innings because there's very little
>>need to preserve wickets, so you have to bowl to take account of how
>>the batters will behave.
>
>And Steve Harmison has just quoted the fact that of the 12
>Test-playing countries, England are ranked 12th when it comes to
>restricting runs in the last 4 overs.
>
>We have been crap at it for years.

Yes, it's remarkable that we should be worse at it even than Zimbabwe.
(I assume that only their matches against the other Test-playing nations
were included as, since they will probably have played more matches
against the "minnows" than England, it wouldn't be a fair comparison if
those matches were included.)
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

In message <4h0evg13hqq4ahpn9urgdp14af0n4apl4c@4ax.com>, Mike Holmans
<spam@jackalope.uk> writes
>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 21:13:43 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 20:37:53 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Death bowling is the last 3-4 overs of a T20 innings. Batters behave
>>>differently in that phase of the innings because there's very little
>>>need to preserve wickets, so you have to bowl to take account of how
>>>the batters will behave.
>>
>>And Steve Harmison has just quoted the fact that of the 12
>>Test-playing countries, England are ranked 12th when it comes to
>>restricting runs in the last 4 overs.
>>
>>We have been crap at it for years.
>
>And here we are again: the last 4 overs went for 71, 17.75/over.

It would have been unconventional and risky, but given the nature of the
pitch and the way the WI have played spin in this series, I wonder if
England might have done better to save some of their spinners' overs for
the death. You'd probably want to keep Topley for two of the last four
overs, given how well he's bowled in this series (even today, I thought
he bowled better than his figures suggested, with a couple of boundaries
off him being flukey), but maybe use one of the spinners for the other
two. But of course Jordan did bowl very well at the death in yesterday's
match, so it was understandable that Moeen went with him.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 6:54:42 PM UTC, max.it wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:28:06 +0000, Mike Holmans <sp...@jackalope.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:24:44 +0000, max.it <m...@tea.time> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:10:08 +0000, Mike Holmans <sp...@jackalope.uk>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:06:41 +0000, max.it <m...@tea.time> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Any truth in that remark?
> >>>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/60146427
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>I don't know about 2014 when Gurney was playing but the England death
> >>>>bowling surely has been one of it's strong areas. Although and I may
> >>>>be having false memories, but earlier in the T20 era death fielding
> >>>>was more of a priority.
> >>>>
> >>>>I'm not sure what Gurney is trying to say.
> >>>
> >>>That England's death bowling has been a weakness for some considerable
> >>>time, which it has. It's been partly masked by Morgan's ability to win
> >>>the toss and chase a lot.
> >>>
> >>>Cheers,
> >>>
> >>>Mike
> >>
> >>Wonder what Jordan and Rashid think?
> >
> >Jordan is the only one who has ever been a good death bowler, and he
> >has learned those skills in IPL and other franchise leagues. Rashid
> >tends to bowl overs 6, 8, 10 and another one, so I don't understand
> >what relevance he has.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Mike
> Rashid is a senior bowler on the team surely his opinion would be
> relevant?

does any team ever use a spinner to bowl the final over or overs?
not even in SL or India?
>
> Anyway. Death bowling is a buzz word. It all depends on who has the
> bat in their hand at the time. I said before many the time it's death
> fielding that's important and you can add death batting to that too.

thats too much death. i dont like the phrase death bowling, it sounds morbid.
reminds me of poor phil hughes. as its the end of innings, i think 'end
bowling' is better. Who are the best 'end bowlers' i wonder, perhaps Starc
or Bumrah?

mike

On 30/01/2022 21:41, John Hall wrote:
> In message <povdvglac2te65v97dtieefee7m8j62d26@4ax.com>, Mike Holmans
> <spam@jackalope.uk> writes
>> On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 20:37:53 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Death bowling is the last 3-4 overs of a T20 innings. Batters behave
>>> differently in that phase of the innings because there's very little
>>> need to preserve wickets, so you have to bowl to take account of how
>>> the batters will behave.
>>
>> And Steve Harmison has just quoted the fact that of the 12
>> Test-playing countries, England are ranked 12th when it comes to
>> restricting runs in the last 4 overs.
>>
>> We have been crap at it for years.
>
> Yes, it's remarkable that we should be worse at it even than Zimbabwe.
> (I assume that only their matches against the other Test-playing nations
> were included as, since they will probably have played more matches
> against the "minnows" than England, it wouldn't be a fair comparison if
> those matches were included.)

The table they showed was for overs 16-20 since the start of 2021, and
it _didn't_ say that it was restricted to matches against ICC full members.

Ind 8.41 rpo
NZ 8.77
SA 8.81
WI 9.00
SL 9.03
Ban 9.05
Pak 9.18
Ire 9.27
Aus 9.53
Zim 9.66
Afg 10.15
Eng 10.43

In that time, Zimbabwe have played Afghanistan (3 matches), Pakistan
(3), Bangladesh (3), Ireland (5) and Scotland (3).

England's opponents were India (5), Sri Lanka (4), Pakistan (3), West
Indies (6), Bangladesh (1), Australia (1), South Africa (1) and New
Zealand (1).

--
David North

On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 4:54:42 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> Anyway. Death bowling is a buzz word.

This.

T20 is a batter's game. Batsmen can hit boundaries from any delivery. There's nothing special about bowling in the last 2-3 overs, and there's no special skill that bowlers can acquire.

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 10:02:36 PM UTC, mike wrote:
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 6:54:42 PM UTC, max.it wrote:
> > On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:28:06 +0000, Mike Holmans <sp...@jackalope.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:24:44 +0000, max.it <m...@tea.time> wrote:
> > >
> > >>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:10:08 +0000, Mike Holmans <sp...@jackalope.uk>
> > >>wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:06:41 +0000, max.it <m...@tea.time> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Any truth in that remark?
> > >>>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/60146427
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I don't know about 2014 when Gurney was playing but the England death
> > >>>>bowling surely has been one of it's strong areas. Although and I may
> > >>>>be having false memories, but earlier in the T20 era death fielding
> > >>>>was more of a priority.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I'm not sure what Gurney is trying to say.
> > >>>
> > >>>That England's death bowling has been a weakness for some considerable
> > >>>time, which it has. It's been partly masked by Morgan's ability to win
> > >>>the toss and chase a lot.
> > >>>
> > >>>Cheers,
> > >>>
> > >>>Mike
> > >>
> > >>Wonder what Jordan and Rashid think?
> > >
> > >Jordan is the only one who has ever been a good death bowler, and he
> > >has learned those skills in IPL and other franchise leagues. Rashid
> > >tends to bowl overs 6, 8, 10 and another one, so I don't understand
> > >what relevance he has.
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >
> > >Mike
> > Rashid is a senior bowler on the team surely his opinion would be
> > relevant?
> does any team ever use a spinner to bowl the final over or overs?
> not even in SL or India?
> >
> > Anyway. Death bowling is a buzz word. It all depends on who has the
> > bat in their hand at the time. I said before many the time it's death
> > fielding that's important and you can add death batting to that too.
> thats too much death. i dont like the phrase death bowling, it sounds morbid.
> reminds me of poor phil hughes. as its the end of innings, i think 'end
> bowling' is better. Who are the best 'end bowlers' i wonder, perhaps Starc
> or Bumrah?
>

in this match Holder certainly showed England how its done, 2-0-25-1,
then 4 for 2 runs plus a hatrick. and b4 this series he didnt have a great
record in T20.

mike

In message <15a28053-e5f8-4450-84f5-c7fc9cce99d0n@googlegroups.com>,
mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>in this match Holder certainly showed England how its done, 2-0-25-1,
>then 4 for 2 runs plus a hatrick. and b4 this series he didnt have a
>great record in T20.

Someone pointed out that he was helped by having the tail left to bowl
at in the final overs (though that's a little hard on Jordan), whereas
one reason that England's death bowlers have struggled is that WI have
generally only had about 4 wickets down at that stage so the batsmen
have been able to throw caution to the winds, knowing that they had
plenty of wickets in hand.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 10:20:17 AM UTC, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:51:51 +0000, John Hall <john_...@jhall.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >In message <15a28053-e5f8-4450...@googlegroups.com>,
> >mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >>in this match Holder certainly showed England how its done, 2-0-25-1,
> >>then 4 for 2 runs plus a hatrick.

actually i should have said 4 trick really, as it was 4 in 4, unless hatrick is
generic for 3 in 3 and anything more.

> >>and b4 this series he didnt have a
> >>great record in T20.
> >
> >Someone pointed out that he was helped by having the tail left to bowl
> >at in the final overs (though that's a little hard on Jordan), whereas
> >one reason that England's death bowlers have struggled is that WI have
> >generally only had about 4 wickets down at that stage so the batsmen
> >have been able to throw caution to the winds, knowing that they had
> >plenty of wickets in hand.

i believe the batting version is called a finisher. I heard a number of times
how good a finisher someone was. Unfortunately it was usually when
windies were batting.

mike

On 2022-02-01, mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 10:20:17 AM UTC, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:51:51 +0000, John Hall <john_...@jhall.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>> >In message <15a28053-e5f8-4450...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>> >>in this match Holder certainly showed England how its done, 2-0-25-1,
>> >>then 4 for 2 runs plus a hatrick.
>
> actually i should have said 4 trick really, as it was 4 in 4, unless hatrick is
> generic for 3 in 3 and anything more.

it's a 'double hat-trick'

On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 10:20:03 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

>On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:51:51 +0000, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <15a28053-e5f8-4450-84f5-c7fc9cce99d0n@googlegroups.com>,
>>mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>>in this match Holder certainly showed England how its done, 2-0-25-1,
>>>then 4 for 2 runs plus a hatrick. and b4 this series he didnt have a
>>>great record in T20.
>>
>>Someone pointed out that he was helped by having the tail left to bowl
>>at in the final overs (though that's a little hard on Jordan), whereas
>>one reason that England's death bowlers have struggled is that WI have
>>generally only had about 4 wickets down at that stage so the batsmen
>>have been able to throw caution to the winds, knowing that they had
>>plenty of wickets in hand.
>
>And that's when you need bowlers who know how to bowl at batters who
>are throwing caution to the winds. That's what death bowling *is*, for
>the benefit of those twits who don't think there's any specialism
>involved.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike

Run in, bowl, varied deliveries, try not to be predictable and don't
give away extras. Without any clairvoyant ability there isn't anything
else a bower can do at any time during any T20 innings. After the ball
leaves the bowler's hand the batsman is in control (or not), I said
before, bowling depends on the batsman..
You may as well try to bowl your best because trying to presuppose
what a batsman will do if he's already throwing caution to the winds
(I'll take that as swinging like a rusty gate) is just silly so you
may as well just bowl straight and full and let the death fielder
catch out the death batsman or not.

max.it

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On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 6:53:15 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> >And that's when you need bowlers who know how to bowl at batters who
> >are throwing caution to the winds. That's what death bowling *is*, for
> >the benefit of those twits who don't think there's any specialism
> >involved.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Mike
> Run in, bowl, varied deliveries, try not to be predictable and don't
> give away extras. Without any clairvoyant ability there isn't anything
> else a bower can do at any time during any T20 innings. After the ball
> leaves the bowler's hand the batsman is in control (or not), I said
> before, bowling depends on the batsman..
> You may as well try to bowl your best because trying to presuppose
> what a batsman will do if he's already throwing caution to the winds
> (I'll take that as swinging like a rusty gate) is just silly so you
> may as well just bowl straight and full and let the death fielder
> catch out the death batsman or not.

In this series England had the worst "death" bowling stats. Ever.
They averaged 13.22 runs per over.

How does that compare to a team batting well in the "early" overs - ie at the start of their innings?
I'm not sure, but looking at some high scoring T20s, they averaged close to 11 runs per over in the first 6.

13.22 runs vs 11 runs per over. The difference isn't much.

There's nothing special about "death" overs, and there's no special skill to bowling in them. The batsmen are slightly more willing to throw their wickets away. Isn't this good for a bowler?

On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:21:05 AM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 6:53:15 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> > >And that's when you need bowlers who know how to bowl at batters who
> > >are throwing caution to the winds. That's what death bowling *is*, for
> > >the benefit of those twits who don't think there's any specialism
> > >involved.
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >
> > >Mike
> > Run in, bowl, varied deliveries, try not to be predictable and don't
> > give away extras. Without any clairvoyant ability there isn't anything
> > else a bower can do at any time during any T20 innings. After the ball
> > leaves the bowler's hand the batsman is in control (or not), I said
> > before, bowling depends on the batsman..
> > You may as well try to bowl your best because trying to presuppose
> > what a batsman will do if he's already throwing caution to the winds
> > (I'll take that as swinging like a rusty gate) is just silly so you
> > may as well just bowl straight and full and let the death fielder
> > catch out the death batsman or not.
> In this series England had the worst "death" bowling stats. Ever.
> They averaged 13.22 runs per over.
>
> How does that compare to a team batting well in the "early" overs - ie at the start of their innings?
> I'm not sure, but looking at some high scoring T20s, they averaged close to 11 runs per over in the first 6.

The first 6 have more restricted fielding requirements, which means boundaries are easier to hit
>
> 13.22 runs vs 11 runs per over. The difference isn't much.

over 4 overs that's about 10 runs difference, which isn't insignificant in a 20/20 match
>
> There's nothing special about "death" overs, and there's no special skill to bowling in them. The batsmen are slightly more willing to throw their wickets away. Isn't this good for a bowler?

You've certainly got a chance of the batsman picking out an outfielder, the question is how many times they play the shot without hitting an outfielder before you get the mistake.
And making them hit to the longer boundary, areas that aren't a strength, where you've got the cover etc

On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:56:54 AM UTC+10, Hamish Laws wrote:
> And making them hit to the longer boundary, areas that aren't a strength, where you've got the cover etc

That applies for all overs in a T20, not just the last 4. (Overs 17-20 seem to be considered "death" overs).

On Wed, 02 Feb 2022 10:01:55 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

>On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 20:53:11 +0000, max.it <max@tea.time> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 10:20:03 +0000, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>
>>>And that's when you need bowlers who know how to bowl at batters who
>>>are throwing caution to the winds. That's what death bowling *is*, for
>>>the benefit of those twits who don't think there's any specialism
>>>involved.
>>
>>Run in, bowl, varied deliveries, try not to be predictable and don't
>>give away extras.
>
>That's like advising batters to go out and score quickly but don't get
>out. It's vacuous and doesn't help at all.

I actually said more than that.
"Run in, bowl, varied deliveries, try not to be predictable and don't
give away extras. Without any clairvoyant ability there isn't anything
else a bower can do at any time during any T20 innings. After the ball
leaves the bowler's hand the batsman is in control (or not), I said
before, bowling depends on the batsman..
You may as well try to bowl your best because trying to presuppose
what a batsman will do if he's already throwing caution to the winds
(I'll take that as swinging like a rusty gate) is just silly so you
may as well just bowl straight and full and let the death fielder
catch out the death batsman or not."

>Doesn't the fact that the only person who agrees with you is noted
>wankstick jzf give you slight pause?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike

I don't see his posts and anyway argumentum ad populum is vacuous and
doesn't help at all. I can make up my own mind and I don't give a
tuppeny fuck who disagrees or agrees with my conclusion. I'm not
attempting to persuade anyone to agree with me and I don't get so
excited when someone comes to a different conclusion.

max.it

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On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 12:12:18 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> anyway argumentum ad populum is vacuous and
> doesn't help at all.

But that's pretty much all MH has. He's a sheep.