The Green's rider to offer incentives for people to change from gas to
electricity is misguided. For hot water, even a pissy 13 LPM model
(which will only suit a 1 bathroom apartment) needs 3-phase wiring. It
is going to be a boondoggle for sparkies rewiring houses. And do the
Greens realise what will happen in their dream world? Unwanted methane
and propane (formerly used for cooking and heating) will simply be
flared (i.e. burnt for nothing) by refineries in shit-hole countries.

Ozix <ozix@xizo.am> wrote

> The Green's rider to offer incentives for people to change from gas to
> electricity is misguided.

All their shit is.

> For hot water, even a pissy 13 LPM model (which will only suit a 1
> bathroom apartment) needs 3-phase wiring.

Not with the much more common storage heaters.

> It is going to be a boondoggle for sparkies rewiring houses.

Nope, very little rewiring needed for a storage heater.

> And do the Greens realise what will happen in their dream world?
> Unwanted methane and propane (formerly used for cooking and heating)
> will simply be flared (i.e. burnt for nothing) by refineries in
> shit-hole countries.

Gas isn't done like that. It's only flared early on before there is a
pipeline
to the particular well which turns out to be a viable gas well.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 17:37:15 +0800, Ozix <ozix@xizo.am> wrote:

>The Green's rider to offer incentives for people to change from gas to
>electricity is misguided. For hot water, even a pissy 13 LPM model
>(which will only suit a 1 bathroom apartment) needs 3-phase wiring. It
>is going to be a boondoggle for sparkies rewiring houses. And do the
>Greens realise what will happen in their dream world? Unwanted methane
>and propane (formerly used for cooking and heating) will simply be
>flared (i.e. burnt for nothing) by refineries in shit-hole countries.

Yes, they're mad.
In the Good Old Days (GOD) the off-peak electricity in Vic was about
1/5th the day rate.
After the Kennett catastrophe, when the SEC was sold to his business
mates, and the discount rate jumped to half the day rate. Boy were
we pissed off, especially since all the "competition" offered no
discount. Our power bills leapt!

Ozix wrote:
> The Green's rider to offer incentives for people to change from gas to
> electricity is misguided. For hot water, even a pissy 13 LPM model
> (which will only suit a 1 bathroom apartment) needs 3-phase wiring. It
> is going to be a boondoggle for sparkies rewiring houses. And do the
> Greens realise what will happen in their dream world? Unwanted methane
> and propane (formerly used for cooking and heating) will simply be
> flared (i.e. burnt for nothing) by refineries in shit-hole countries.

Firstly, the burning of coal, gas and oil in any shape and form is bad
for the planet. That is the baseline. Of course, we can debate till the
cows come home how to replace these three sources of energy and how soon
to get there. Of course, as soon as renewable energy based power
generation complemented with stored power takes up 100% of the grid
supply converting all appliances to electricity starts to make a very
good sense.
That is definitely the case for city dwellers. On the other hand in the
country with lots of farm animals bio-gas generation using animal and
human excrement and all the household waste (basically a fermenter tank
generates and collects methane based on controlled bio-decomposition)
can be an option for gas supply complementing wind and solar sources of
energy.

Secondly, fossil carbon sources, all of them are still needed for the
chemical industry where it can be put to good use instead of the
stupidity of burning the stuff as fuel to make bucket loads of short
term profits for greedy bastard capitalists thereby wasting that
eventually limited quite valuable supply of raw material.

Thirdly for the average household's heated water needs for the bathroom
the water temperature does never need to be more than max 50°C. That
means power requirements for the electric water heater does not need to
be so high as you suggest. Obviously augmented with a solar water
heating system the power needs for an additional electric heater can be
reduced even further.

--
The ever present and ever vigilant newsgroup devil at your service.

On 15/12/2022 8:37 pm, Ozix wrote:
> The Green's rider to offer incentives for people to change from gas to
> electricity is misguided. For hot water, even a pissy 13 LPM model
> (which will only suit a 1 bathroom apartment) needs 3-phase wiring.

Huh? Are you implying that ANY electric hot water system needs 3 phase
power??????? If you are, that is incorrect.

It
> is going to be a boondoggle for sparkies rewiring houses. And do the
> Greens realise what will happen in their dream world? Unwanted methane
> and propane (formerly used for cooking and heating) will simply be
> flared (i.e. burnt for nothing) by refineries in shit-hole countries.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 07:18:32 +1100, Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 17:37:15 +0800, Ozix <ozix@xizo.am> wrote:
>
>> The Green's rider to offer incentives for people to change from gas to
>> electricity is misguided. For hot water, even a pissy 13 LPM model
>> (which will only suit a 1 bathroom apartment) needs 3-phase wiring. It
>> is going to be a boondoggle for sparkies rewiring houses. And do the
>> Greens realise what will happen in their dream world? Unwanted methane
>> and propane (formerly used for cooking and heating) will simply be
>> flared (i.e. burnt for nothing) by refineries in shit-hole countries.
>
> Yes, they're mad.
> In the Good Old Days (GOD) the off-peak electricity in Vic was about
> 1/5th the day rate.

But that won't work if we mostly have EVs.

> After the Kennett catastrophe,

That was actually the Caine stupidity, bankrupting the state.

> when the SEC was sold to his business mates,

Another bare faced lie.

> and the discount rate jumped to half the day rate. Boy were
> we pissed off, especially since all the "competition" offered no
> discount. Our power bills leapt!

Bullshit.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 08:40:46 +1100, Ördög
<newsgroup.devil@hell.incorporated.biz> wrote:

> Ozix wrote:
>> The Green's rider to offer incentives for people to change from gas to
>> electricity is misguided. For hot water, even a pissy 13 LPM model
>> (which will only suit a 1 bathroom apartment) needs 3-phase wiring. It
>> is going to be a boondoggle for sparkies rewiring houses. And do the
>> Greens realise what will happen in their dream world? Unwanted methane
>> and propane (formerly used for cooking and heating) will simply be
>> flared (i.e. burnt for nothing) by refineries in shit-hole countries.

> Firstly, the burning of coal, gas and oil in any shape and form is bad
> for the planet.

Bullshit.

> That is the baseline.

Nope, dope.

> Of course, we can debate till the cows come home how to replace these
> three sources of energy and how soon to get there.

The obvious replacement is nukes.

> Of course, as soon as renewable energy based power generation
> complemented with stored power takes up 100% of the grid supply

Nukes make much more sense.

> converting all appliances to electricity starts to make a very good
> sense.

> That is definitely the case for city dwellers. On the other hand in the
> country with lots of farm animals bio-gas generation using animal and
> human excrement and all the household waste (basically a fermenter tank
> generates and collects methane based on controlled bio-decomposition)
> can be an option for gas supply complementing wind and solar sources of
> energy.

Nukes and the grid makes much more sense.

> Secondly, fossil carbon sources, all of them are still needed for the
> chemical industry where it can be put to good use instead of the
> stupidity of burning the stuff as fuel to make bucket loads of short
> term profits for greedy bastard capitalists thereby wasting that
> eventually limited quite valuable supply of raw material.

> Thirdly for the average household's heated water needs for the bathroom
> the water temperature does never need to be more than max 50°C. That
> means power requirements for the electric water heater does not need to
> be so high as you suggest.

And it is trivial to store hot water heated with a single phase service
and that is in fact what almost everyone does.

> Obviously augmented with a solar water heating system the power needs
> for an additional electric heater can be reduced even further.

Nukes make much more sense.