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aus+uk / aus.legal / Re: Safety verses religious freedom

SubjectAuthor
* Safety verses religious freedomDechucka
+* Re: Safety verses religious freedomPhil Allison
|`- Re: Safety verses religious freedomRod Speed
+* Re: Safety verses religious freedomSylvia Else
|`* Re: Safety verses religious freedomDechucka
| `* Re: Safety verses religious freedomSylvia Else
|  +* Re: Safety verses religious freedomPhil Allison
|  |`- Re: Safety verses religious freedomRod Speed
|  `* Re: Safety verses religious freedomDechucka
|   `* Re: Safety verses religious freedomSylvia Else
|    +* Re: Safety verses religious freedomPhil Allison
|    |`* Re: Safety verses religious freedomSylvia Else
|    | `* Re: Safety verses religious freedomPhil Allison
|    |  `* Re: Safety verses religious freedomSylvia Else
|    |   `- Re: Safety verses religious freedomPhil Allison
|    `- Re: Safety verses religious freedomMax
`- Re: Safety verses religious freedomRex Libris

1
Safety verses religious freedom

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From: Dechuc...@hotmail.com (Dechucka)
Subject: Safety verses religious freedom
Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 09:49:49 +1000
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 by: Dechucka - Wed, 19 May 2021 23:49 UTC

Following the stabbing of 16yo with a "religious knife" at Glenwood High
School on May 6 religious knives have been banned from schools. However
it is part of the Sikh religion that a kirpan must be carried by the
members of Sikh community as an article of their faith. I was amazed
that there are exemptions under the Summary Offences Act to carry a
kirpan and they were allowed in schools.
I support religious freedom unless others peoples freedoms, like not
getting stabbed, aren't affected so surely there must be a way of
working around this safety verses religious freedom situation.
Personally I'd like it to end up in the High Court to see what they say
about religious freedom in this secular country.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-18/sikh-community-react-to-nsw-education-religious-knife-ban/100145496

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

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Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 20 May 2021 00:05 UTC

Dechucka wrote:
==============
>
> Following the stabbing of 16yo with a "religious knife" at Glenwood High
> School on May 6 religious knives have been banned from schools. However
> it is part of the Sikh religion that a kirpan must be carried by the
> members of Sikh community as an article of their faith. I was amazed
> that there are exemptions under the Summary Offences Act to carry a
> kirpan and they were allowed in schools.
> I support religious freedom unless others peoples freedoms, like not
> getting stabbed, aren't affected so surely there must be a way of
> working around this safety verses religious freedom situation.
>

** The knife does not have to be usable, just carried.
So it can be made harmless by fixing it ( ie with multiple rivets ) in its carrying case in a way the owner ( or anyone else) has no access.
If it *has* to be usable, then the whole story of it being a religious ornament is 100% bullshit.

...... Phil

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
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Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 10:37:38 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Thu, 20 May 2021 00:37 UTC

On 20-May-21 9:49 am, Dechucka wrote:
> Following the stabbing of 16yo with a "religious knife" at Glenwood High
> School on May 6 religious knives have been banned from schools. However
> it is part of the Sikh religion that a kirpan must be carried by the
> members of Sikh community as an article of their faith. I was amazed
> that there are exemptions under the Summary Offences Act to carry a
> kirpan and they were allowed in schools.
> I support religious freedom unless others peoples freedoms, like not
> getting stabbed, aren't affected so surely there must be a way of
> working around this safety verses religious freedom situation.
> Personally I'd like it to end up in the High Court to see what they say
> about religious freedom in this secular country.
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-18/sikh-community-react-to-nsw-education-religious-knife-ban/100145496
>

It's not that there was any express exemptions under the Summary
Offences act, just that possession of a knife is not an offence if
there's a reasonable excuse.

A court might find that religious reasons is not a reasonable excuse,
but that has presumably never been tested.

If this stabbing was premeditated (I haven't found an indication either
way), then banning the Kirpan would probably have just seen the student
take another knife. After all, if one's planning to stab someone,
committing an offence under the Summary Offences Act is not going to be
a concern.

Sylvia.

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

<XfedneV2Mfd9Kzj9nZ2dnUU7-XfNnZ2d@westnet.com.au>

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From: Dechuc...@hotmail.com (Dechucka)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 11:09:49 +1000
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 by: Dechucka - Thu, 20 May 2021 01:09 UTC

On 20/05/2021 10:37 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 20-May-21 9:49 am, Dechucka wrote:
>> Following the stabbing of 16yo with a "religious knife" at Glenwood
>> High School on May 6 religious knives have been banned from schools.
>> However it is part of the Sikh religion that a kirpan must be carried
>> by the members of Sikh community as an article of their faith. I was
>> amazed that there are exemptions under the Summary Offences Act to
>> carry a kirpan and they were allowed in schools.
>> I support religious freedom unless others peoples freedoms, like not
>> getting stabbed, aren't affected so surely there must be a way of
>> working around this safety verses religious freedom situation.
>> Personally I'd like it to end up in the High Court to see what they
>> say about religious freedom in this secular country.
>>
>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-18/sikh-community-react-to-nsw-education-religious-knife-ban/100145496
>>
>
> It's not that there was any express exemptions under the Summary
> Offences act, just that possession of a knife is not an offence if
> there's a reasonable excuse.

Seems fairly expressed to me
https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/whole/html/inforce/2018-01-14/act-1988-025#sec.11C

11C Custody of knife in public place or school

(1) A person must not, without reasonable excuse (proof of
which lies on the person), have in his or her custody a knife in a
public place or a school.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units or imprisonment for 2 years,
or both.

(2) Without limitation, it is a reasonable excuse for the
purposes of this section for a person to have custody of a knife, if:

(a) the custody is reasonably necessary in all the
circumstances for any of the following:

(i) the lawful pursuit of the person’s occupation,
education or training,

(ii) the preparation or consumption of food or drink,

(iii) participation in a lawful entertainment,
recreation or sport,

(iv) the exhibition of knives for retail or other
trade purposes,

(v) an organised exhibition by knife collectors,

(vi) the wearing of an official uniform,

(vii) genuine religious purposes, or

(b) the custody is reasonably necessary in all the
circumstances during travel to or from or incidental to an activity
referred to in paragraph (a), or

(c) the custody is of a kind prescribed by the regulations.

(3) However, it is not a reasonable excuse for the purposes of
this section for a person to have custody of a knife solely for the
purpose of self defence or the defence of another person.
>
> A court might find that religious reasons is not a reasonable excuse,
> but that has presumably never been tested.

The law would need to be changed to cut out ;-) this expressed exemption

>
> If this stabbing was premeditated (I haven't found an indication either
> way), then banning the Kirpan would probably have just seen the student
> take another knife. After all, if one's planning to stab someone,
> committing an offence under the Summary Offences Act is not going to be
> a concern.
>
> Sylvia.

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

<igls7bFns5pU1@mid.individual.net>

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Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
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 by: Sylvia Else - Thu, 20 May 2021 01:27 UTC

On 20-May-21 11:09 am, Dechucka wrote:
> On 20/05/2021 10:37 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 20-May-21 9:49 am, Dechucka wrote:
>>> Following the stabbing of 16yo with a "religious knife" at Glenwood
>>> High School on May 6 religious knives have been banned from schools.
>>> However it is part of the Sikh religion that a kirpan must be carried
>>> by the members of Sikh community as an article of their faith. I was
>>> amazed that there are exemptions under the Summary Offences Act to
>>> carry a kirpan and they were allowed in schools.
>>> I support religious freedom unless others peoples freedoms, like not
>>> getting stabbed, aren't affected so surely there must be a way of
>>> working around this safety verses religious freedom situation.
>>> Personally I'd like it to end up in the High Court to see what they
>>> say about religious freedom in this secular country.
>>>
>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-18/sikh-community-react-to-nsw-education-religious-knife-ban/100145496
>>>
>>
>> It's not that there was any express exemptions under the Summary
>> Offences act, just that possession of a knife is not an offence if
>> there's a reasonable excuse.
>
> Seems fairly expressed to me
> https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/whole/html/inforce/2018-01-14/act-1988-025#sec.11C
>
>
> 11C   Custody of knife in public place or school
>
>         (1)  A person must not, without reasonable excuse (proof of
> which lies on the person), have in his or her custody a knife in a
> public place or a school.
>         Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units or imprisonment for 2 years,
> or both.
>
>         (2)  Without limitation, it is a reasonable excuse for the
> purposes of this section for a person to have custody of a knife, if:
>
>             (a)  the custody is reasonably necessary in all the
> circumstances for any of the following:
>
>                 (i)  the lawful pursuit of the person’s occupation,
> education or training,
>
>                 (ii)  the preparation or consumption of food or drink,
>
>                 (iii)  participation in a lawful entertainment,
> recreation or sport,
>
>                 (iv)  the exhibition of knives for retail or other
> trade purposes,
>
>                 (v)  an organised exhibition by knife collectors,
>
>                 (vi)  the wearing of an official uniform,
>
>                 (vii)  genuine religious purposes, or
>
>             (b)  the custody is reasonably necessary in all the
> circumstances during travel to or from or incidental to an activity
> referred to in paragraph (a), or
>
>             (c)  the custody is of a kind prescribed by the regulations.
>
>         (3)  However, it is not a reasonable excuse for the purposes of
> this section for a person to have custody of a knife solely for the
> purpose of self defence or the defence of another person.
>>
>> A court might find that religious reasons is not a reasonable excuse,
>> but that has presumably never been tested.
>
> The law would need to be changed to cut out ;-) this expressed exemption
>
>>
>> If this stabbing was premeditated (I haven't found an indication
>> either way), then banning the Kirpan would probably have just seen the
>> student take another knife. After all, if one's planning to stab
>> someone, committing an offence under the Summary Offences Act is not
>> going to be a concern.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>

OK, somehow I missed that, though I'm not sure that section does more
than clarify some reasonable excuses. Even if vii were repealed that
would not in itself be sufficient to remove the religious exemption. It
would merely allow a court to find that it was not a reasonable excuse,
though it could equally do the opposite.

The legislation would have to be amended so as to expressly provide that
religious grounds are not a reasonable excuse.

A student could still use (ii) if they routinely take food and drink to
the school. Indeed, that would mean that the knife would have to be
usable. Removing the religious exemption could just have the result that
Sikhs routinely carry a Kirpan that is not pinned to make it unusable.
This would be an example of the law of unintended consequences.

Sylvia.

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

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Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 20 May 2021 01:46 UTC

Sylvia Else wrote:
==============
>
> A student could still use (ii) if they routinely take food and drink to
> the school. Indeed, that would mean that the knife would have to be
> usable.

** Said knife must be suited to that simple job - so not a sharpened dagger.

> Removing the religious exemption could just have the result that
> Sikhs routinely carry a Kirpan that is not pinned to make it unusable.

** Huh - that is the case now.

> This would be an example of the law of unintended consequences.

** Why laws have to be interpreted by courts, not taken literally by any fool who chooses to do so.

..... Phil

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

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 by: Dechucka - Thu, 20 May 2021 01:58 UTC

On 20/05/2021 11:27 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 20-May-21 11:09 am, Dechucka wrote:
>> On 20/05/2021 10:37 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 20-May-21 9:49 am, Dechucka wrote:
>>>> Following the stabbing of 16yo with a "religious knife" at Glenwood
>>>> High School on May 6 religious knives have been banned from schools.
>>>> However it is part of the Sikh religion that a kirpan must be
>>>> carried by the members of Sikh community as an article of their
>>>> faith. I was amazed that there are exemptions under the Summary
>>>> Offences Act to carry a kirpan and they were allowed in schools.
>>>> I support religious freedom unless others peoples freedoms, like not
>>>> getting stabbed, aren't affected so surely there must be a way of
>>>> working around this safety verses religious freedom situation.
>>>> Personally I'd like it to end up in the High Court to see what they
>>>> say about religious freedom in this secular country.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-18/sikh-community-react-to-nsw-education-religious-knife-ban/100145496
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not that there was any express exemptions under the Summary
>>> Offences act, just that possession of a knife is not an offence if
>>> there's a reasonable excuse.
>>
>> Seems fairly expressed to me
>> https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/whole/html/inforce/2018-01-14/act-1988-025#sec.11C
>>
>>
>> 11C   Custody of knife in public place or school
>>
>>          (1)  A person must not, without reasonable excuse (proof of
>> which lies on the person), have in his or her custody a knife in a
>> public place or a school.
>>          Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units or imprisonment for 2
>> years, or both.
>>
>>          (2)  Without limitation, it is a reasonable excuse for the
>> purposes of this section for a person to have custody of a knife, if:
>>
>>              (a)  the custody is reasonably necessary in all the
>> circumstances for any of the following:
>>
>>                  (i)  the lawful pursuit of the person’s occupation,
>> education or training,
>>
>>                  (ii)  the preparation or consumption of food or drink,
>>
>>                  (iii)  participation in a lawful entertainment,
>> recreation or sport,
>>
>>                  (iv)  the exhibition of knives for retail or other
>> trade purposes,
>>
>>                  (v)  an organised exhibition by knife collectors,
>>
>>                  (vi)  the wearing of an official uniform,
>>
>>                  (vii)  genuine religious purposes, or
>>
>>              (b)  the custody is reasonably necessary in all the
>> circumstances during travel to or from or incidental to an activity
>> referred to in paragraph (a), or
>>
>>              (c)  the custody is of a kind prescribed by the regulations.
>>
>>          (3)  However, it is not a reasonable excuse for the purposes
>> of this section for a person to have custody of a knife solely for the
>> purpose of self defence or the defence of another person.
>>>
>>> A court might find that religious reasons is not a reasonable excuse,
>>> but that has presumably never been tested.
>>
>> The law would need to be changed to cut out ;-) this expressed exemption
>>
>>>
>>> If this stabbing was premeditated (I haven't found an indication
>>> either way), then banning the Kirpan would probably have just seen
>>> the student take another knife. After all, if one's planning to stab
>>> someone, committing an offence under the Summary Offences Act is not
>>> going to be a concern.
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>
>
> OK, somehow I missed that, though I'm not sure that section does more
> than clarify some reasonable excuses. Even if vii were repealed that
> would not in itself be sufficient to remove the religious exemption. It
> would merely allow a court to find that it was not a reasonable excuse,
> though it could equally do the opposite.

Pain in the arse if it had to go to court, I always carry a pen knife on
my belt which I use around the farm and cut up fruit when out, also have
a big knife in the car when I'm going diving. Having to justify it in
Court would both be costly and time consuming. BTW Both could be deadly
if I wanted to use them for nefarious reasons.
It is how I know about this law because I checked it out when it came in
to see if I was exempt.
>
> The legislation would have to be amended so as to expressly provide that
> religious grounds are not a reasonable excuse.
>
> A student could still use (ii) if they routinely take food and drink to
> the school. Indeed, that would mean that the knife would have to be
> usable.

My daughter routinely takes a knife to school albeit a butter knife to
prepare her lunch which is probably against school rules.

> Removing the religious exemption could just have the result that
> Sikhs routinely carry a Kirpan that is not pinned to make it unusable.
> This would be an example of the law of unintended consequences.

I personally think a total ban is stupid and against religious freedom.
There must be a way around this rather than this stupid knee-jerk reaction

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 12:05:30 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Thu, 20 May 2021 02:05 UTC

On 20-May-21 11:58 am, Dechucka wrote:
> On 20/05/2021 11:27 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 20-May-21 11:09 am, Dechucka wrote:
>>> On 20/05/2021 10:37 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> On 20-May-21 9:49 am, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>> Following the stabbing of 16yo with a "religious knife" at Glenwood
>>>>> High School on May 6 religious knives have been banned from
>>>>> schools. However it is part of the Sikh religion that a kirpan must
>>>>> be carried by the members of Sikh community as an article of their
>>>>> faith. I was amazed that there are exemptions under the Summary
>>>>> Offences Act to carry a kirpan and they were allowed in schools.
>>>>> I support religious freedom unless others peoples freedoms, like
>>>>> not getting stabbed, aren't affected so surely there must be a way
>>>>> of working around this safety verses religious freedom situation.
>>>>> Personally I'd like it to end up in the High Court to see what they
>>>>> say about religious freedom in this secular country.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-18/sikh-community-react-to-nsw-education-religious-knife-ban/100145496
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not that there was any express exemptions under the Summary
>>>> Offences act, just that possession of a knife is not an offence if
>>>> there's a reasonable excuse.
>>>
>>> Seems fairly expressed to me
>>> https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/whole/html/inforce/2018-01-14/act-1988-025#sec.11C
>>>
>>>
>>> 11C   Custody of knife in public place or school
>>>
>>>          (1)  A person must not, without reasonable excuse (proof of
>>> which lies on the person), have in his or her custody a knife in a
>>> public place or a school.
>>>          Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units or imprisonment for 2
>>> years, or both.
>>>
>>>          (2)  Without limitation, it is a reasonable excuse for the
>>> purposes of this section for a person to have custody of a knife, if:
>>>
>>>              (a)  the custody is reasonably necessary in all the
>>> circumstances for any of the following:
>>>
>>>                  (i)  the lawful pursuit of the person’s occupation,
>>> education or training,
>>>
>>>                  (ii)  the preparation or consumption of food or drink,
>>>
>>>                  (iii)  participation in a lawful entertainment,
>>> recreation or sport,
>>>
>>>                  (iv)  the exhibition of knives for retail or other
>>> trade purposes,
>>>
>>>                  (v)  an organised exhibition by knife collectors,
>>>
>>>                  (vi)  the wearing of an official uniform,
>>>
>>>                  (vii)  genuine religious purposes, or
>>>
>>>              (b)  the custody is reasonably necessary in all the
>>> circumstances during travel to or from or incidental to an activity
>>> referred to in paragraph (a), or
>>>
>>>              (c)  the custody is of a kind prescribed by the
>>> regulations.
>>>
>>>          (3)  However, it is not a reasonable excuse for the purposes
>>> of this section for a person to have custody of a knife solely for
>>> the purpose of self defence or the defence of another person.
>>>>
>>>> A court might find that religious reasons is not a reasonable
>>>> excuse, but that has presumably never been tested.
>>>
>>> The law would need to be changed to cut out ;-) this expressed exemption
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If this stabbing was premeditated (I haven't found an indication
>>>> either way), then banning the Kirpan would probably have just seen
>>>> the student take another knife. After all, if one's planning to stab
>>>> someone, committing an offence under the Summary Offences Act is not
>>>> going to be a concern.
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia.
>>>
>>
>> OK, somehow I missed that, though I'm not sure that section does more
>> than clarify some reasonable excuses. Even if vii were repealed that
>> would not in itself be sufficient to remove the religious exemption.
>> It would merely allow a court to find that it was not a reasonable
>> excuse, though it could equally do the opposite.
>
> Pain in the arse if it had to go to court, I always carry a pen knife on
> my belt which I use around the farm and cut up fruit when out, also have
> a big knife in the car when I'm going diving. Having to justify it in
> Court would both be costly and time consuming. BTW Both could be deadly
> if I wanted to use them for nefarious reasons.
> It is how I know about this law because I checked it out when it came in
> to see if I was exempt.

In practice it would only go to court once, to determine whether a
particular excuse was a reasonable excuse.

> I personally think a total ban is stupid and against religious freedom.
> There must be a way around this rather than this stupid knee-jerk reaction
>

It's just part of the persistent notion that regulators have that you
can prevent people from committing serious criminal offences by making
other things unlawful.

In the particular case, the problem was not the knife, it was the student.

Sylvia.

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

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Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 20 May 2021 02:42 UTC

Sylvia Else wrote:
==================
>
> In the particular case, the problem was not the knife, it was the student.
>

** Which is *not* the reason being cited for banning students carrying knives.

That reason is that particular students could and did carry lethal daggers legally.

....... Phil

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
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Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
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 by: Sylvia Else - Thu, 20 May 2021 02:43 UTC

On 20-May-21 12:42 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> ==================
>>
>> In the particular case, the problem was not the knife, it was the student.
>>
>
> ** Which is *not* the reason being cited for banning students carrying knives.
>
> That reason is that particular students could and did carry lethal daggers legally.
>
>
> ...... Phil
>
>

Is there any reason to think the stabbing would not have occurred if the
daggers were not permitted?

Sylvia.

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

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Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 20 May 2021 03:14 UTC

Sylvia Else wrote:
===============
>>
> >> In the particular case, the problem was not the knife, it was the student.
> >>
> >
> > ** Which is *not* the reason being cited for banning students carrying knives.
> >
> > That reason is that particular students could and did carry lethal daggers legally.
> >
>
> Is there any reason to think the stabbing would not have occurred if the
> daggers were not permitted?

** Nothing to do with the issue.

The fallacious reasoner is YOU - as bloody usual.

...... Phil

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

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 by: Sylvia Else - Thu, 20 May 2021 05:01 UTC

On 20-May-21 1:14 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> ===============
>>>
>>>> In the particular case, the problem was not the knife, it was the student.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ** Which is *not* the reason being cited for banning students carrying knives.
>>>
>>> That reason is that particular students could and did carry lethal daggers legally.
>>>
>>
>> Is there any reason to think the stabbing would not have occurred if the
>> daggers were not permitted?
>
> ** Nothing to do with the issue.
>
> The fallacious reasoner is YOU - as bloody usual.
>
>
> ..... Phil
>
>

Isn't the issue that someone got stabbed, and we don't like that?

Sylvia.

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

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Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 20 May 2021 05:32 UTC

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 3:01:39 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 20-May-21 1:14 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> > Sylvia Else wrote:
> > ===============
> >>>
> >>>> In the particular case, the problem was not the knife, it was the student.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ** Which is *not* the reason being cited for banning students carrying knives.
> >>>
> >>> That reason is that particular students could and did carry lethal daggers legally.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Is there any reason to think the stabbing would not have occurred if the
> >> daggers were not permitted?
> >
> > ** Nothing to do with the issue.
> >
> > The fallacious reasoner is YOU - as bloody usual.
> >
> >
> > ..... Phil
> >
> >
> Isn't the issue that someone got stabbed, and we don't like that?
>

** Yawnnnnnnnnnnnn......................

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

<s85nhc$p4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: max...@val.morgan (Max)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 23:17:31 +1000
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 by: Max - Thu, 20 May 2021 13:17 UTC

On 20/05/2021 12:05 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 20-May-21 11:58 am, Dechucka wrote:
>> On 20/05/2021 11:27 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 20-May-21 11:09 am, Dechucka wrote:
>>>> On 20/05/2021 10:37 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>> On 20-May-21 9:49 am, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>>> Following the stabbing of 16yo with a "religious knife" at
>>>>>> Glenwood High School on May 6 religious knives have been banned
>>>>>> from schools. However it is part of the Sikh religion that a
>>>>>> kirpan must be carried by the members of Sikh community as an
>>>>>> article of their faith. I was amazed that there are exemptions
>>>>>> under the Summary Offences Act to carry a kirpan and they were
>>>>>> allowed in schools.
>>>>>> I support religious freedom unless others peoples freedoms, like
>>>>>> not getting stabbed, aren't affected so surely there must be a way
>>>>>> of working around this safety verses religious freedom situation.
>>>>>> Personally I'd like it to end up in the High Court to see what
>>>>>> they say about religious freedom in this secular country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-18/sikh-community-react-to-nsw-education-religious-knife-ban/100145496
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not that there was any express exemptions under the Summary
>>>>> Offences act, just that possession of a knife is not an offence if
>>>>> there's a reasonable excuse.
>>>>
>>>> Seems fairly expressed to me
>>>> https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/whole/html/inforce/2018-01-14/act-1988-025#sec.11C
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 11C   Custody of knife in public place or school
>>>>
>>>>          (1)  A person must not, without reasonable excuse (proof of
>>>> which lies on the person), have in his or her custody a knife in a
>>>> public place or a school.
>>>>          Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units or imprisonment for 2
>>>> years, or both.
>>>>
>>>>          (2)  Without limitation, it is a reasonable excuse for the
>>>> purposes of this section for a person to have custody of a knife, if:
>>>>
>>>>              (a)  the custody is reasonably necessary in all the
>>>> circumstances for any of the following:
>>>>
>>>>                  (i)  the lawful pursuit of the person’s occupation,
>>>> education or training,
>>>>
>>>>                  (ii)  the preparation or consumption of food or drink,
>>>>
>>>>                  (iii)  participation in a lawful entertainment,
>>>> recreation or sport,
>>>>
>>>>                  (iv)  the exhibition of knives for retail or other
>>>> trade purposes,
>>>>
>>>>                  (v)  an organised exhibition by knife collectors,
>>>>
>>>>                  (vi)  the wearing of an official uniform,
>>>>
>>>>                  (vii)  genuine religious purposes, or
>>>>
>>>>              (b)  the custody is reasonably necessary in all the
>>>> circumstances during travel to or from or incidental to an activity
>>>> referred to in paragraph (a), or
>>>>
>>>>              (c)  the custody is of a kind prescribed by the
>>>> regulations.
>>>>
>>>>          (3)  However, it is not a reasonable excuse for the
>>>> purposes of this section for a person to have custody of a knife
>>>> solely for the purpose of self defence or the defence of another
>>>> person.
>>>>>
>>>>> A court might find that religious reasons is not a reasonable
>>>>> excuse, but that has presumably never been tested.
>>>>
>>>> The law would need to be changed to cut out ;-) this expressed
>>>> exemption
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If this stabbing was premeditated (I haven't found an indication
>>>>> either way), then banning the Kirpan would probably have just seen
>>>>> the student take another knife. After all, if one's planning to
>>>>> stab someone, committing an offence under the Summary Offences Act
>>>>> is not going to be a concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK, somehow I missed that, though I'm not sure that section does more
>>> than clarify some reasonable excuses. Even if vii were repealed that
>>> would not in itself be sufficient to remove the religious exemption.
>>> It would merely allow a court to find that it was not a reasonable
>>> excuse, though it could equally do the opposite.
>>
>> Pain in the arse if it had to go to court, I always carry a pen knife
>> on my belt which I use around the farm and cut up fruit when out, also
>> have a big knife in the car when I'm going diving. Having to justify
>> it in Court would both be costly and time consuming. BTW Both could be
>> deadly if I wanted to use them for nefarious reasons.
>> It is how I know about this law because I checked it out when it came
>> in to see if I was exempt.
>
> In practice it would only go to court once, to determine whether a
> particular excuse was a reasonable excuse.
>

A magistrate/judge would only be bound to apply a precedent from a
higher court. So there could be multiple cases at the lower court where
people could get a different ruling every time.

>> I personally think a total ban is stupid and against religious
>> freedom. There must be a way around this rather than this stupid
>> knee-jerk reaction
>>
>
> It's just part of the persistent notion that regulators have that you
> can prevent people from committing serious criminal offences by making
> other things unlawful.
>
> In the particular case, the problem was not the knife, it was the student.
>
> Sylvia.
>

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

<igojo4F9l67U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 12:20:48 +1000
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 by: Rod Speed - Fri, 21 May 2021 02:20 UTC

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:62ea9505-8cb8-4ffd-9ddd-32046b3e9d1fn@googlegroups.com...
> Dechucka wrote:
> ==============
>>
>> Following the stabbing of 16yo with a "religious knife" at Glenwood High
>> School on May 6 religious knives have been banned from schools. However
>> it is part of the Sikh religion that a kirpan must be carried by the
>> members
>> of Sikh community as an article of their faith. I was amazed that there
>> are
>> exemptions under the Summary Offences Act to carry a kirpan

I wasn’t and in fact told someone about it only a couple of weeks ago.

We have hordes of sikhs here for some reason and fucking
great temple, bigger than any other religion has here.

>> and they were allowed in schools.

>> I support religious freedom unless others peoples freedoms, like
>> not getting stabbed, aren't affected so surely there must be a way
>> of working around this safety verses religious freedom situation.

> The knife does not have to be usable, just carried.
> So it can be made harmless by fixing it ( ie with
> multiple rivets ) in its carrying case in a way the
> owner ( or anyone else) has no access.

> If it *has* to be usable, then the whole story of
> it being a religious ornament is 100% bullshit.

It is never a religious ornament.

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

<igojuvF9ma9U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
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Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 12:24:28 +1000
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 by: Rod Speed - Fri, 21 May 2021 02:24 UTC

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:da7e7046-4d9f-47fb-afd8-cd0b625a8b90n@googlegroups.com...
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> ==============
>>
>> A student could still use (ii) if they routinely take food and drink to
>> the school. Indeed, that would mean that the knife would have to be
>> usable.
>
> Said knife must be suited to that simple job - so not a sharpened
> dagger.

Its never a dagger, its only sharp on one side.

>> Removing the religious exemption could just have the result that
>> Sikhs routinely carry a Kirpan that is not pinned to make it unusable.

> Huh - that is the case now.

>> This would be an example of the law of unintended consequences.

> Why laws have to be interpreted by courts, not taken literally by any
> fool who chooses to do so.

Re: Safety verses religious freedom

<s8av6e$4ut$2@dont-email.me>

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From: king.b...@bookworm.com (Rex Libris)
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Subject: Re: Safety verses religious freedom
Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 22:56:27 +1000
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 by: Rex Libris - Sat, 22 May 2021 12:56 UTC

On Thu, 20 May 2021 09:49:49 +1000
Dechucka <Dechucka1@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I was amazed
> that there are exemptions under the Summary Offences Act to carry a
> kirpan and they were allowed in schools.

This spoke Gladys as well.

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