Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
innings?

mike

On 15/03/2022 12:56, mike wrote:

> Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
> has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
> innings?

563 ENG (849) v WI (286) † Kingston 1929/30
509 ENG (173) v SAf (682-6d) Lord's 2003
498 BAN (232) v SL (730-6d) Mirpur 2013/14
493 AUS (652-7d) v SAf (159) Johannesburg 2001/02
492 IND (610-3d) v BAN (118) Mirpur 2007
490 WI (614-5d) v IND (124) Calcutta 1958/59
485 ZIM (228) v SL (713-3d) Bulawayo 2004
476 PAK (708) v ENG (232) The Oval 1987
459 BAN (135) v PAK (594-5d) Chittagong 2011/12
453 AUS (653-4d) v ENG (200) Leeds 1993
444 WI (660-5d) v NZ (216) Wellington 1994/95
439 IND (622-9d) v SL (183) Colombo-SSC 2017
427 AUS (632-4d) v ENG (205) Lord's 1993
419 WI (652-8d) v ENG (233) Lord's 1973
419 SL (181) v PAK (600-8d) Galle 2000
418 IND (76) v SAf (494-7d) Ahmedabad 2007/08
418 PAK (99) v SAf (517) Dubai 2013/14 @
415 ENG (191) v WI (606) Birmingham 1984
415 AUS (98) v ENG (513) Melbourne 2010/11
412 ZIM (164) v NZ (576-6d) Bulawayo 2016
408 AUS (556-9d) v PAK (148) † Karachi 2021/22
404 ZIM (155) v WI (559-6d) Bulawayo 2001
401 WI (357) v AUS (758-8d) Kingston 1954/55

† Follow-on not enforced
@ Neutral venue (PAK 'home')

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 3:47:47 PM UTC, Brian Lawrence wrote:
> On 15/03/2022 12:56, mike wrote:
>
> > Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
> > has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
> > innings?
> 563 ENG (849) v WI (286) † Kingston 1929/30
> 509 ENG (173) v SAf (682-6d) Lord's 2003
> 498 BAN (232) v SL (730-6d) Mirpur 2013/14
> 493 AUS (652-7d) v SAf (159) Johannesburg 2001/02
> 492 IND (610-3d) v BAN (118) Mirpur 2007
> 490 WI (614-5d) v IND (124) Calcutta 1958/59
> 485 ZIM (228) v SL (713-3d) Bulawayo 2004
> 476 PAK (708) v ENG (232) The Oval 1987
> 459 BAN (135) v PAK (594-5d) Chittagong 2011/12
> 453 AUS (653-4d) v ENG (200) Leeds 1993
> 444 WI (660-5d) v NZ (216) Wellington 1994/95
> 439 IND (622-9d) v SL (183) Colombo-SSC 2017
> 427 AUS (632-4d) v ENG (205) Lord's 1993
> 419 WI (652-8d) v ENG (233) Lord's 1973
> 419 SL (181) v PAK (600-8d) Galle 2000
> 418 IND (76) v SAf (494-7d) Ahmedabad 2007/08
> 418 PAK (99) v SAf (517) Dubai 2013/14 @
> 415 ENG (191) v WI (606) Birmingham 1984
> 415 AUS (98) v ENG (513) Melbourne 2010/11
> 412 ZIM (164) v NZ (576-6d) Bulawayo 2016
> 408 AUS (556-9d) v PAK (148) † Karachi 2021/22
> 404 ZIM (155) v WI (559-6d) Bulawayo 2001
> 401 WI (357) v AUS (758-8d) Kingston 1954/55
>
> † Follow-on not enforced
> @ Neutral venue (PAK 'home')

wow very good. seems over the last 20 years its not uncommon at all!

mike

In message <f90025d8-4de5-4bf4-be59-e351cabcfdf3n@googlegroups.com>,
mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
>has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
>innings?
>
>mike

Should they manage to win from here, which is not beyond the bounds of
possibility, it would be an unprecedented feat, both in terms of the
biggest first innings lead to concede before going on to win and also
for the highest winning score in the fourth innings.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 4:18:44 AM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
> In message <f90025d8-4de5-4bf4...@googlegroups.com>,
> mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
> >has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
> >innings?
> >
> >mike
> Should they manage to win from here, which is not beyond the bounds of
> possibility, it would be an unprecedented feat, both in terms of the
> biggest first innings lead to concede before going on to win and also
> for the highest winning score in the fourth innings.

and also raise questions about whether they should have enforced the follow on to avoid it...

On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:10:01 AM UTC+11, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 4:18:44 AM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
> > In message <f90025d8-4de5-4bf4...@googlegroups.com>,
> > mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> > >Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
> > >has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
> > >innings?
> > >
> > >mike
> > Should they manage to win from here, which is not beyond the bounds of
> > possibility, it would be an unprecedented feat, both in terms of the
> > biggest first innings lead to concede before going on to win and also
> > for the highest winning score in the fourth innings.
> and also raise questions about whether they should have enforced the follow on to avoid it...

As does Pakistan holding on by 3 wickets

On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:59:26 PM UTC+11, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 05:46:24 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:10:01 AM UTC+11, Hamish Laws wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 4:18:44 AM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
> >> > In message <f90025d8-4de5-4bf4...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> > mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >> > >Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
> >> > >has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
> >> > >innings?
> >> > >
> >> > >mike
> >> > Should they manage to win from here, which is not beyond the bounds of
> >> > possibility, it would be an unprecedented feat, both in terms of the
> >> > biggest first innings lead to concede before going on to win and also
> >> > for the highest winning score in the fourth innings.
> >> and also raise questions about whether they should have enforced the follow on to avoid it...
> >
> >As does Pakistan holding on by 3 wickets
> A feast for the statisticians, that innings.
>
> Attempting to be impartial and almost certainly failing, it seems to
> me that a side which can hang on for 174 overs and score 400+ in a 4th
> innings somehow /deserves/ a draw.

Can't really argue with that.
In any conditions that's a damned good effort.

>From the point of view of history,
> it's far better that Babar Azam and Md Rizwan are remembered as heroes
> who successfully dug their team out of an impossibly deep hole than
> that Pakistan duly lost after conceding a ridiculous first-innings
> deficit.
>
> Well done to them, and I'm sure Alvey will find much to fuel his
> enjoyable conspiracy theories.

On 15/03/2022 15:47, Brian Lawrence wrote:
> On 15/03/2022 12:56, mike wrote:
>
>> Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
>> has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
>> innings?
>
> 563  ENG (849)    v WI  (286) †   Kingston      1929/30
> 509  ENG (173)    v SAf (682-6d)  Lord's        2003
> 498  BAN (232)    v SL  (730-6d)  Mirpur        2013/14
> 493  AUS (652-7d) v SAf (159)     Johannesburg  2001/02
> 492  IND (610-3d) v BAN (118)     Mirpur        2007
> 490  WI  (614-5d) v IND (124)     Calcutta      1958/59
> 485  ZIM (228)    v SL  (713-3d)  Bulawayo      2004
> 476  PAK (708)    v ENG (232)     The Oval      1987
> 459  BAN (135)    v PAK (594-5d)  Chittagong    2011/12
> 453  AUS (653-4d) v ENG (200)     Leeds         1993
> 444  WI  (660-5d) v NZ  (216)     Wellington    1994/95
> 439  IND (622-9d) v SL  (183)     Colombo-SSC   2017
> 427  AUS (632-4d) v ENG (205)     Lord's        1993
> 419  WI  (652-8d) v ENG (233)     Lord's        1973
> 419  SL  (181)    v PAK (600-8d)  Galle         2000
> 418  IND  (76)    v SAf (494-7d)  Ahmedabad     2007/08
> 418  PAK  (99)    v SAf (517)     Dubai         2013/14   @
> 415  ENG (191)    v WI  (606)     Birmingham    1984
> 415  AUS  (98)    v ENG (513)     Melbourne     2010/11
> 412  ZIM (164)    v NZ  (576-6d)  Bulawayo      2016
> 408  AUS (556-9d) v PAK (148) †   Karachi       2021/22
> 404  ZIM (155)    v WI  (559-6d)  Bulawayo      2001
> 401  WI  (357)    v AUS (758-8d)  Kingston      1954/55
>
> †  Follow-on not enforced
> @  Neutral venue (PAK 'home')

There was a record in the Ranji Trophy preliminary quarter final,
though: Jharkhand 880 & 417/6, Nagaland 289. 591 is the highest first
innings lead by a team batting first in a FC match and not enforcing the
follow-on.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/ranji-trophy-2021-22-1280196/jharkhand-vs-nagaland-preliminary-quarter-final-1280465/full-scorecard

--
David North

On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 12:59:24 +0000, Mike Holmans wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 05:46:24 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:10:01 AM UTC+11, Hamish Laws wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 4:18:44 AM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
>>> > In message <f90025d8-4de5-4bf4...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> > mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>> > >Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
>>> > >has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
>>> > >innings?
>>> > >
>>> > >mike
>>> > Should they manage to win from here, which is not beyond the bounds of
>>> > possibility, it would be an unprecedented feat, both in terms of the
>>> > biggest first innings lead to concede before going on to win and also
>>> > for the highest winning score in the fourth innings.
>>> and also raise questions about whether they should have enforced the follow on to avoid it...
>>
>>As does Pakistan holding on by 3 wickets
>
> A feast for the statisticians, that innings.
>
> Attempting to be impartial and almost certainly failing, it seems to
> me that a side which can hang on for 174 overs and score 400+ in a 4th
> innings somehow /deserves/ a draw. From the point of view of history,
> it's far better that Babar Azam and Md Rizwan are remembered as heroes
> who successfully dug their team out of an impossibly deep hole than
> that Pakistan duly lost after conceding a ridiculous first-innings
> deficit.
>
> Well done to them, and I'm sure Alvey will find much to fuel his
> enjoyable conspiracy theories.

"Persecute! Kill the heretic!"

Anyhoo... I'm quite enjoying the TV comms this series, mainly because of
the complete abscence of the NSW bias that smothers 'our' media like
censorship in Russia. Why the host broadcasters even made mention of SPIT
dropping catches *and* even put a little package of them together! This
would never, ever happen on Fox. And I do like Waqar Younis, he's sooo
droll.

alvey

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:55:33 AM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> There was a record in the Ranji Trophy preliminary quarter final,
> though: Jharkhand 880 & 417/6, Nagaland 289. 591 is the highest first
> innings lead by a team batting first in a FC match and not enforcing the
> follow-on.

Damn, that's a flogging.
I guess if a draw is enough to proceed to the semis then getting more batting practice is probably a good idea.

In message <831657cb-f5ed-47a1-866e-c234f761dd00n@googlegroups.com>,
Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> writes
>On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:59:26 PM UTC+11, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 05:46:24 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:10:01 AM UTC+11, Hamish Laws wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 4:18:44 AM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
>> >> > In message <f90025d8-4de5-4bf4...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >> > mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>> >> > >Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
>> >> > >has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
>> >> > >innings?
>> >> > >
>> >> > >mike
>> >> > Should they manage to win from here, which is not beyond the bounds of
>> >> > possibility, it would be an unprecedented feat, both in terms of the
>> >> > biggest first innings lead to concede before going on to win and also
>> >> > for the highest winning score in the fourth innings.
>> >> and also raise questions about whether they should have enforced
>> >>the follow on to avoid it...
>> >
>> >As does Pakistan holding on by 3 wickets
>> A feast for the statisticians, that innings.
>>
>> Attempting to be impartial and almost certainly failing, it seems to
>> me that a side which can hang on for 174 overs and score 400+ in a 4th
>> innings somehow /deserves/ a draw.
>
>Can't really argue with that.
>In any conditions that's a damned good effort.

If the BBC website is to believed, Pakistan batted through the
second-most number of overs in the fourth innings to secure a Test draw,
exceeded only by England when they made 654-5 in the famous Timeless
Test against SA in 1938-9. And Babar batted for the second-highest
number of balls in the fourth innings of a Test, exceeded only by Mike
Atherton in his famous rearguard with Jack Russell, again against SA.
(What is it with England v SA Tests in SA?)
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 10:15:51 PM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
> In message <831657cb-f5ed-47a1...@googlegroups.com>,
> Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> writes
> >On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:59:26 PM UTC+11, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >> On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 05:46:24 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> >> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:10:01 AM UTC+11, Hamish Laws wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 4:18:44 AM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
> >> >> > In message <f90025d8-4de5-4bf4...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> > mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >> >> > >Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
> >> >> > >has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
> >> >> > >innings?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >mike
> >> >> > Should they manage to win from here, which is not beyond the bounds of
> >> >> > possibility, it would be an unprecedented feat, both in terms of the
> >> >> > biggest first innings lead to concede before going on to win and also
> >> >> > for the highest winning score in the fourth innings.
> >> >> and also raise questions about whether they should have enforced
> >> >>the follow on to avoid it...
> >> >
> >> >As does Pakistan holding on by 3 wickets
> >> A feast for the statisticians, that innings.
> >>
> >> Attempting to be impartial and almost certainly failing, it seems to
> >> me that a side which can hang on for 174 overs and score 400+ in a 4th
> >> innings somehow /deserves/ a draw.
> >
> >Can't really argue with that.
> >In any conditions that's a damned good effort.
> If the BBC website is to believed, Pakistan batted through the
> second-most number of overs in the fourth innings to secure a Test draw,
> exceeded only by England when they made 654-5 in the famous Timeless
> Test against SA in 1938-9. And Babar batted for the second-highest
> number of balls in the fourth innings of a Test, exceeded only by Mike
> Atherton in his famous rearguard with Jack Russell, again against SA.
> (What is it with England v SA Tests in SA?)

Since readmission no decent spinners on either side.

In message <78abc5d0-f149-40b3-8255-e58c814ed442n@googlegroups.com>,
Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> writes
>On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 10:15:51 PM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
>> If the BBC website is to believed, Pakistan batted through the
>> second-most number of overs in the fourth innings to secure a Test draw,
>> exceeded only by England when they made 654-5 in the famous Timeless
>> Test against SA in 1938-9. And Babar batted for the second-highest
>> number of balls in the fourth innings of a Test, exceeded only by Mike
>> Atherton in his famous rearguard with Jack Russell, again against SA.
>> (What is it with England v SA Tests in SA?)
>
>Since readmission no decent spinners on either side.

Graeme Swann was pretty decent! Though the Mike Atherton match would
have been before his time.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On 17/03/2022 11:14, John Hall wrote:
> In message <831657cb-f5ed-47a1-866e-c234f761dd00n@googlegroups.com>,
> Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> writes
>> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:59:26 PM UTC+11, Mike Holmans wrote:
>>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 05:46:24 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:10:01 AM UTC+11, Hamish Laws wrote:
>>> >> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 4:18:44 AM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
>>> >> > In message <f90025d8-4de5-4bf4...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> >> > mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>> >> > >Pakistan seem to be doing a lot better in the 2nd, but how often
>>> >> > >has a home team conceded a 400 run lead or more in the first
>>> >> > >innings?
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >mike
>>> >> > Should they manage to win from here, which is not beyond the
>>> bounds of
>>> >> > possibility, it would be an unprecedented feat, both in terms of
>>> the
>>> >> > biggest first innings lead to concede before going on to win and
>>> also
>>> >> > for the highest winning score in the fourth innings.
>>> >> and also raise questions about whether they should have enforced
>>> >>the follow on to avoid it...
>>> >
>>> >As does Pakistan holding on by 3 wickets
>>> A feast for the statisticians, that innings.
>>>
>>> Attempting to be impartial and almost certainly failing, it seems to
>>> me that a side which can hang on for 174 overs and score 400+ in a 4th
>>> innings somehow /deserves/ a draw.
>>
>> Can't really argue with that.
>> In any conditions that's a damned good effort.
>
> If the BBC website is to believed, Pakistan batted through the
> second-most number of overs in the fourth innings to secure a Test draw,
> exceeded only by England when they made 654-5 in the famous Timeless
> Test against SA in 1938-9.

Yes, there have been three other 4th innings where more deliveries were
bowled but the batting side lost:

England 274 off 191.3 overs v WI, Lord's, 1950 (143 of those overs
bowled by Ramadhin and Valentine)

India 445 off 141.4 8-ball overs, Adelaide 1977/78 (fewer overs than
Pakistan faced, but more balls)

NZ 440 off 188.1 overs, Trent Bridge 1973

> And Babar batted for the second-highest
> number of balls in the fourth innings of a Test, exceeded only by Mike
> Atherton in his famous rearguard with Jack Russell, again against SA.

I think that must have been the second-longest by time (Babar 603 mins,
Atherton 643).

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;orderby=minutes;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

Atherton's 492 balls is the most recorded by Cricinfo, and Herbert
Sutcliffe (462 balls, MCG 1928/29) and Sunil Gavaskar (443 balls, The
Oval 1979) faced more balls than Babar (425).

However, Charles Davis's scorecard shows that, in the Durban timeless
Test, Bill Edrich faced 565 balls for his 219, and Paul Gibb faced 429
for his 120.

http://www.sportstats.com.au/zArchive/1930s/1938SE/1938SE5.pdf

Also, Bruce Mitchell faced 440 balls in making 189* at The Oval in 1947.

http://www.sportstats.com.au/zArchive/1940s/1947ES/1947ES5.pdf

--
David North

On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 3:33:36 AM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
> In message <78abc5d0-f149-40b3...@googlegroups.com>,
> Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> writes
> >On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 10:15:51 PM UTC+11, John Hall wrote:
> >> If the BBC website is to believed, Pakistan batted through the
> >> second-most number of overs in the fourth innings to secure a Test draw,
> >> exceeded only by England when they made 654-5 in the famous Timeless
> >> Test against SA in 1938-9. And Babar batted for the second-highest
> >> number of balls in the fourth innings of a Test, exceeded only by Mike
> >> Atherton in his famous rearguard with Jack Russell, again against SA.
> >> (What is it with England v SA Tests in SA?)
> >
> >Since readmission no decent spinners on either side.
> Graeme Swann was pretty decent! Though the Mike Atherton match would
> have been before his time.

Would you and Mike please stop bringing facts in to argue against my snark?