On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 10:55:32 PM UTC, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:15:05 AM UTC+10, John Hall wrote:
> > In message <5c36e435-07a4-4ca1...@googlegroups.com>,
> > jack fredricks <jzfre...@gmail.com> writes
> > >On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:30:06 PM UTC+10, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:26:44 PM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 8:28:55 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > >> > > Turmper also has a poor average of 32 as opposed to Jackson's 48.
> > >> > Jackson only played 20 Tests, so his 4 Not Outs had a greater
> > >> >impact on his average.
> > >> >
> > >> > What was his FC record like?
> > >> average 33.83 from 505 innings.
> > >
> > >That's not particularly stellar.
> > It isn't. But it's comparable with the mid-thirties f-c average of
> > Michael Vaughan, for instance.
> I'm trying to avoid comparing averages 100 years apart!
> Sadly I've always struggled to find good, and free, resources for FC stats "way-back-then".
>
> Looking at Jackson's English peers' FC records;
> Ranjitsinhji 24692 runs @ 56.37 average
> CB Fry 30886 @ 50.22
> Tom Hayward 43551 @ 41.79
> Bobby Abel 33128 @ 35.46
> Jackson 15901 @ 33.83
>

NB: no idea if this is a fair representation of Jackson's peers.

Not Bad.

Here's another killer Jackson stat. His Test career ran from 1893 to 1905.
No other batsman, either English or Australian had scored even 4 centuries by the time Jackson ended his Test (and Ashes) career .

The only player to have made more than 5 Ashes centuries before WW1 is Trumper with 6 and he had played in 40 Tests by 1912 and had a much inferior average ( 32. 79) to Jackson's 48

See
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_hundreds_career.html?id=1;type=trophy

RH

> > >
> > >Trumper's FC stats;
> > >401 innings, 44.57 average.
> > I suspect that pitches for Australian domestic cricket may have been
> > rather better than in England at that period.
> See English peers above.
> Trumper's Test average in England was significantly lower - 27.83, 34 innings.
> I can't tell if this is caused by Away issues (not used to conditions inc the pitches)
>
> Lower away averages are common.
>
> Jackson didn't travel to Aus.
> But some of his peers did.
> Ranjitsinhji 50.77 average in Australia, vs 40.92 average in England. Tests.
> CB Fry - never played in Aus
> Tom Hayward 35.62 Aus vs 31.40 Eng.
> Bobby Abel 54.25 Aus vs 24.14 Eng
>
> Some of these had so few Tests in Aus though. I guess the lack of airplanes is to blame.
> But based on that, yes, it looks like the same batsmen would score more runs in Aus.
> > >I wonder if Jackson's Test average is boosted by a few lucky things; so
> > >few Tests, only home Tests, exceptional luck with the toss (won 13,
> > >lost 7), only 1 opposition.
> > Or, like some of the best Test cricketers, he may have raised his game
> > or Tests.
> Maybe.
> > And having only one opposition, when that opposition is strong
> > like Australia were, is likely to make your average worse rather than
> > better.
> True.
> > >
> > >Re the toss; Trumper's team's toss result was exactly 50-50 (24 won,
> > >24 lost). Trumper's batting average was higher when they lost the toss.
> > >His best average was when they lost the toss and were sent in!
> > That's remarkable. How many such matches did he play in? Is it large
> > enough for that to be more than a fluke?
> > >OTOH, Jackson seemed to really benefit from toss wins. Average when
> > >winning toss == 66.58. Losing == 23.58.
> > >I'm also not sure how unusual this is, but Jackson's team batted 100%
> > >of the time when they won the toss.
> > At that period the prevailing orthodoxy was to almost always bat when
> > winning the toss, so it's probably not unusual.
> Yeah. Trumper's team's record was 24 toss wins, batted 23 times. They were sent in to bat first 5 of the 24 times they lost the toss, though.
> > >I don't know. The more I look into Jackson the less impressed I am. A
> > >great player, sure, but not that great. Probably why he's not mentioned
> > >much.
> > >
> > That's probably more because he played before WW1, and for those not
> > fascinated by cricket history there are probably few players from back
> > then that they could name. But your "a great player but not that great"
> > may be a fair enough summary. (Though if you take into account his
> > bowling and his captaincy as well as his batting, it might promote him
> > to a slightly higher position in the notional league table.)
> Yeah, one must acknowledge his other contributions.
> Wisden snippet "he went on from strength to strength, until he became one of the finest cricketers ever seen in England". High praise indeed.

On 25/03/2022 22:14, John Hall wrote:
> In message <5c36e435-07a4-4ca1-b522-435bedc723d7n@googlegroups.com>,
> jack fredricks <jzfredricks@gmail.com> writes
>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:30:06 PM UTC+10, hamis...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:26:44 PM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>> > On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 8:28:55 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
>>> > > Turmper also has a poor average of 32 as opposed to Jackson's 48.
>>> > Jackson only played 20 Tests, so his 4 Not Outs had a greater
>>> >impact on his average.
>>> >
>>> > What was his FC record like?
>>> average 33.83 from 505 innings.
>>
>> That's not particularly stellar.
>
> It isn't. But it's comparable with the mid-thirties f-c average of
> Michael Vaughan, for instance.
>
>>
>> Trumper's FC stats;
>> 401 innings, 44.57 average.
>
> I suspect that pitches for Australian domestic cricket may have been
> rather better than in England at that period.
>
>>
>> I wonder if Jackson's Test average is boosted by a few lucky things;
>> so few Tests, only home Tests, exceptional luck with the toss (won 13,
>> lost 7), only 1 opposition.
>
> Or, like some of the best Test cricketers, he may have raised his game
> or Tests. And having only one opposition, when that opposition is strong
> like Australia were, is likely to make your average worse rather than
> better.
>
>>
>> Re the toss; Trumper's team's toss result was exactly 50-50  (24 won,
>> 24 lost). Trumper's batting average was higher when they lost the
>> toss. His best average was when they lost the toss and were sent in!
>
> That's remarkable. How many such matches did he play in? Is it large
> enough for that to be more than a fluke?

5 matches, 10 innings, but they included 4 of his 6 innings against
South Africa, which helped. He made 199 @ 66.33 in those 4 innings, and
237 @ 39.5 in the 6 innings v England.

It's particularly notable that, in those 5 Tests, he averaged 13 in the
1st innings (HS 31) and 92.75 in the 2nd.

--
David North

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 4:10:09 AM UTC+11, RH wrote:
> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 4:44:48 PM UTC, RH wrote:
>
> The leading Australian bowlers Jackson faced during his Test career included these:
> Ernie Jones RF

His last test was beforeJackson's debut

> Tibby Cotter RF

In 3 tests, where Cotter was 22, on his first tour of England and averaged almost 33 for the series

> *Monty Nobel RFM

Yes, in 5 tests over 2 series where Noble was 32 and 36 and took 10 wickets from 10 tests
6 at 68 in 1905 and 4 from 5 tests at 29.50 in 1905
So it seems fairly reasonable to suggest that he wasn't the bowler he used to be

> *Charley Turner RM

In 2 tests in a series where Turner was 32 and took 11 wickets @ 28.63, way over his career average
>
> Spin
> *George Giffen RoB/RM

In 5 tests

> *Hugh Trumble RoB

In 2 tests

> Jack . Saunders SLA

They never played

> Warwick Armstrong LB

hardly a leading bowler

>
> * Players taking over 100 wickets in Ashes Tests No other Australian players took 100 Ashes wickets until Grimmett and O'Reilly reached the mark in the 1930s, as did Lindwall in the 1950s.
>
> The fact that four bowlers from Jackson's time exceeded he 100 wicket mark that shows how strong the bowling was that Jackson faced

Except that he didn't play them much.

On 25/03/2022 22:55, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:15:05 AM UTC+10, John Hall wrote:
>> In message <5c36e435-07a4-4ca1...@googlegroups.com>,
>> jack fredricks <jzfre...@gmail.com> writes
>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:30:06 PM UTC+10, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:26:44 PM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 8:28:55 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
>>>>>> Turmper also has a poor average of 32 as opposed to Jackson's 48.
>>>>> Jackson only played 20 Tests, so his 4 Not Outs had a greater
>>>>> impact on his average.
>>>>>
>>>>> What was his FC record like?
>>>> average 33.83 from 505 innings.
>>>
>>> That's not particularly stellar.
>> It isn't. But it's comparable with the mid-thirties f-c average of
>> Michael Vaughan, for instance.
>
> I'm trying to avoid comparing averages 100 years apart!
> Sadly I've always struggled to find good, and free, resources for FC stats "way-back-then".
>
> Looking at Jackson's English peers' FC records;
> Ranjitsinhji 24692 runs @ 56.37 average
> CB Fry 30886 @ 50.22
> Tom Hayward 43551 @ 41.79
> Bobby Abel 33128 @ 35.46
> Jackson 15901 @ 33.83
>
> NB: no idea if this is a fair representation of Jackson's peers.
>
>
>>>
>>> Trumper's FC stats;
>>> 401 innings, 44.57 average.
>> I suspect that pitches for Australian domestic cricket may have been
>> rather better than in England at that period.
>
> See English peers above.
> Trumper's Test average in England was significantly lower - 27.83, 34 innings.
> I can't tell if this is caused by Away issues (not used to conditions inc the pitches)
>
> Lower away averages are common.
>
> Jackson didn't travel to Aus.
> But some of his peers did.
> Ranjitsinhji 50.77 average in Australia, vs 40.92 average in England. Tests.
> CB Fry - never played in Aus
> Tom Hayward 35.62 Aus vs 31.40 Eng.

but 35.68 in Eng v Aus. He struggled against the 1907 South Africans in
his last full series, 3.5 years after his last series in Aus.

> Bobby Abel 54.25 Aus vs 24.14 Eng
>
> Some of these had so few Tests in Aus though. I guess the lack of airplanes is to blame.
> But based on that, yes, it looks like the same batsmen would score more runs in Aus.

Hirst 26.50 Aus vs 19.26 Eng (22.85 v Aus)
Braund 27.50 Aus vs 22.66 Eng (16.42 v Aus)
MacLaren 42.22 Aus vs 26.36 Eng (all v Aus)

but

Jessop 18.44 Aus vs 23.70 Eng (29.66 v Aus)
JT Tyldesley 26.78 Aus vs 32.03 Eng (33.84 v Aus)

Overall during Jackson's career, England averaged 28.25 with the bat in
England and 25.01 in Australia, although that may be partly because they
were missing some of their better batsmen in Australia.

--
David North

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 9:56:46 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> Overall during Jackson's career, England averaged 28.25 with the bat in
> England and 25.01 in Australia, although that may be partly because they
> were missing some of their better batsmen in Australia.

If you have time can you please do the same calculation for Australia?
I wonder if it's also a case of "home ground advantage".
Thanks for the rest of your stats.

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:55:19 AM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:30:06 PM UTC+10, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:26:44 PM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 8:28:55 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > > > Turmper also has a poor average of 32 as opposed to Jackson's 48.
> > > Jackson only played 20 Tests, so his 4 Not Outs had a greater impact on his average.
> > >
> > > What was his FC record like?
> > average 33.83 from 505 innings.
> That's not particularly stellar.

It doesn't look it but I'm not sure what to compare it to and what he was doing for his team.
I think they were 3 day county matches at the time and as an amateur allrounder he may very well have been under orders to get a move on in most of his innings (a lot of people say that's why Proctor didn't average higher in county cricket)
>
> Trumper's FC stats;
> 401 innings, 44.57 average.
>
> I wonder if Jackson's Test average is boosted by a few lucky things; so few Tests,

Maybe, although with his career going from 1892 until 1905 over 5 series with all but 1 of them averaging over 43 it's samples over a fair length of his career

>only home Tests,

I'm not sure how the conditions compared in Australia versus England during his career. I'm pretty sure that all the tests in Australia were timeless compared to 3 day matches in England so at least the tactics would have to be a bit different.
It's definitely worth considering but I don't know how much weighting you need to give it.

> exceptional luck with the toss (won 13, lost 7),

Which comes down to the series where he won 5 out of 5, apart from that it's 8-7 which is pretty even.
He certainly made the most of that series with 494 runs @ 70 with 2 100s and 2 50s from 9 innings

> only 1 opposition.

Between 1892 and 1905 playing other countries would have almost certainly boosted his average

>
> Re the toss; Trumper's team's toss result was exactly 50-50 (24 won, 24 lost). Trumper's batting average was higher when they lost the toss. His best average was when they lost the toss and were sent in!
> OTOH, Jackson seemed to really benefit from toss wins. Average when winning toss == 66.58. Losing == 23.58.

I don't think I'd pay much attention to that
> I'm also not sure how unusual this is, but Jackson's team batted 100% of the time when they won the toss.

Not overly surprising on uncovered pitches in England in 3 day tests. Generally you wanted to bat when it was dry, the batting was easier and you had a real chance to set the match up
(There's the famous time when England decided to put Australia in because they thought it would be a sticky wicket after lunch and Trumper made a 100 before lunch on day 1)
>
> I don't know. The more I look into Jackson the less impressed I am. A great player, sure, but not that great.

I find it hard to know how to rate players before WWI compared to more recent players.
It's tough comparing players of different eras in any case but I think it's much harder for before WWI than after.

I think he's got a case to be the best test batsman before Hobbs but there are certainly other people in contention

>Probably why he's not mentioned much.

Probably also has a lot to do with his career finishing almost 120 years ago...

On 26/03/2022 11:38, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 4:10:09 AM UTC+11, RH wrote:
>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 4:44:48 PM UTC, RH wrote:
>>
>> The leading Australian bowlers Jackson faced during his Test career included these:
>> Ernie Jones RF
>
> His last test was beforeJackson's debut

No, his entire Test career was during Jackson's

>> Tibby Cotter RF
>
> In 3 tests, where Cotter was 22, on his first tour of England and averaged almost 33 for the series
>
>> *Monty Nobel RFM
>
> Yes, in 5 tests over 2 series where Noble was 32 and 36 and took 10 wickets from 10 tests
> 6 at 68 in 1905

Yes

> and 4 from 5 tests at 29.50 in 1905

That was 1909, after Jackson had retired. Jackson also faced him 1899
and 1902 (5 Tests each series).

> So it seems fairly reasonable to suggest that he wasn't the bowler he used to be
>
>> *Charley Turner RM
>
> In 2 tests in a series where Turner was 32 and took 11 wickets @ 28.63, way over his career average
>>
>> Spin
>> *George Giffen RoB/RM
>
> In 5 tests
>
>> *Hugh Trumble RoB
>
> In 2 tests

No, 13 Tests.

>> Jack . Saunders SLA
>
> They never played

They did, 4 Tests in 1902.

>> Warwick Armstrong LB
>
> hardly a leading bowler

Indeed. Averaged 36.72 in 10 Tests that Jackson played.

Frank Laver, Charlie McLeod and Bill Howell bowled more in Jackson's
Tests than Giffen, Saunders, Cotter or Turner. Laver averaged 29 in
those Tests, McLeod 59.63 and Howell 44.88.

--
David North

On 26/03/2022 12:15, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 9:56:46 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>> Overall during Jackson's career, England averaged 28.25 with the bat in
>> England and 25.01 in Australia, although that may be partly because they
>> were missing some of their better batsmen in Australia.
>
> If you have time can you please do the same calculation for Australia?
> I wonder if it's also a case of "home ground advantage".

Australia averaged 28.58 at home and 22.38 in England during that
period, so home advantage does seem to have been a factor.

--
David North

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:56:46 PM UTC+11, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 22:55, jack fredricks wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:15:05 AM UTC+10, John Hall wrote:
> >> In message <5c36e435-07a4-4ca1...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> jack fredricks <jzfre...@gmail.com> writes
> >>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:30:06 PM UTC+10, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:26:44 PM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 8:28:55 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> >>>>>> Turmper also has a poor average of 32 as opposed to Jackson's 48.
> >>>>> Jackson only played 20 Tests, so his 4 Not Outs had a greater
> >>>>> impact on his average.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What was his FC record like?
> >>>> average 33.83 from 505 innings.
> >>>
> >>> That's not particularly stellar.
> >> It isn't. But it's comparable with the mid-thirties f-c average of
> >> Michael Vaughan, for instance.
> >
> > I'm trying to avoid comparing averages 100 years apart!
> > Sadly I've always struggled to find good, and free, resources for FC stats "way-back-then".

Cricinfo has first class averages of all the players and I think season stats of most first class seasons.
> >
> > Looking at Jackson's English peers' FC records;
> > Ranjitsinhji 24692 runs @ 56.37 average
> > CB Fry 30886 @ 50.22
> > Tom Hayward 43551 @ 41.79
> > Bobby Abel 33128 @ 35.46
> > Jackson 15901 @ 33.83
> >
> > NB: no idea if this is a fair representation of Jackson's peers.

They're top end players but then again we're not likely to think of the names of many players who weren't from back then.
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>> Trumper's FC stats;
> >>> 401 innings, 44.57 average.
> >> I suspect that pitches for Australian domestic cricket may have been
> >> rather better than in England at that period.
> >
> > See English peers above.
> > Trumper's Test average in England was significantly lower - 27.83, 34 innings.
> > I can't tell if this is caused by Away issues (not used to conditions inc the pitches)
> >
> > Lower away averages are common.
> >
> > Jackson didn't travel to Aus.
> > But some of his peers did.
> > Ranjitsinhji 50.77 average in Australia, vs 40.92 average in England. Tests.
> > CB Fry - never played in Aus
> > Tom Hayward 35.62 Aus vs 31.40 Eng.
> but 35.68 in Eng v Aus. He struggled against the 1907 South Africans in
> his last full series, 3.5 years after his last series in Aus.
> > Bobby Abel 54.25 Aus vs 24.14 Eng

Only 3 matches in Aus and his only test 100 versus Aus was here.
> >
> > Some of these had so few Tests in Aus though. I guess the lack of airplanes is to blame.
> > But based on that, yes, it looks like the same batsmen would score more runs in Aus.

an issue is that a lot of them played few enough matches that 1 innings makes a big difference

> Hirst 26.50 Aus vs 19.26 Eng (22.85 v Aus)
> Braund 27.50 Aus vs 22.66 Eng (16.42 v Aus)
> MacLaren 42.22 Aus vs 26.36 Eng (all v Aus)
>
> but
>
> Jessop 18.44 Aus vs 23.70 Eng (29.66 v Aus)

Probably mostly because of his only 100 being in England.

> JT Tyldesley 26.78 Aus vs 32.03 Eng (33.84 v Aus)
>
> Overall during Jackson's career, England averaged 28.25 with the bat in
> England and 25.01 in Australia, although that may be partly because they
> were missing some of their better batsmen in Australia.

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 11:21:10 PM UTC+11, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 26/03/2022 11:38, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 4:10:09 AM UTC+11, RH wrote:
> >> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 4:44:48 PM UTC, RH wrote:
> >>
> >> The leading Australian bowlers Jackson faced during his Test career included these:
> >> Ernie Jones RF
> >
> > His last test was beforeJackson's debut
> No, his entire Test career was during Jackson's

Well that's annoying, I was looking at Cotter's career at the same time and somehow confused it with Jackson's.

> >> Tibby Cotter RF
> >
> > In 3 tests, where Cotter was 22, on his first tour of England and averaged almost 33 for the series
> >
> >> *Monty Nobel RFM
> >
> > Yes, in 5 tests over 2 series where Noble was 32 and 36 and took 10 wickets from 10 tests
> > 6 at 68 in 1905
> Yes
> > and 4 from 5 tests at 29.50 in 1905
> That was 1909, after Jackson had retired. Jackson also faced him 1899
> and 1902 (5 Tests each series).

whoops.

> > So it seems fairly reasonable to suggest that he wasn't the bowler he used to be
> >
> >> *Charley Turner RM
> >
> > In 2 tests in a series where Turner was 32 and took 11 wickets @ 28.63, way over his career average
> >>
> >> Spin
> >> *George Giffen RoB/RM
> >
> > In 5 tests
> >
> >> *Hugh Trumble RoB
> >
> > In 2 tests
> No, 13 Tests.
> >> Jack . Saunders SLA
> >
> > They never played
> They did, 4 Tests in 1902.
> >> Warwick Armstrong LB
> >
> > hardly a leading bowler
> Indeed. Averaged 36.72 in 10 Tests that Jackson played.
>
> Frank Laver, Charlie McLeod and Bill Howell bowled more in Jackson's
> Tests than Giffen, Saunders, Cotter or Turner. Laver averaged 29 in
> those Tests, McLeod 59.63 and Howell 44.88.

On 26/03/2022 12:18, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:55:19 AM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:

>> I wonder if Jackson's Test average is boosted by a few lucky things; so few Tests,

--snip-

>> only 1 opposition.
>
> Between 1892 and 1905 playing other countries would have almost certainly boosted his average

Maybe not if he had played in the 1898/99 series in SA, where England
averaged 19.15 overall. They averaged 27.20 in 1895/96, the only other
series v SA during the period.

--
David North

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 11:38:38 AM UTC, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 4:10:09 AM UTC+11, RH wrote:
> > On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 4:44:48 PM UTC, RH wrote:
> >
> > The leading Australian bowlers Jackson faced during his Test career included these:
> > Ernie Jones RF
> His last test was beforeJackson's debut
>
> > Tibby Cotter RF
>
> In 3 tests, where Cotter was 22, on his first tour of England and averaged almost 33 for the series
>
> > *Monty Nobel RFM
>
> Yes, in 5 tests over 2 series where Noble was 32 and 36 and took 10 wickets from 10 tests
> 6 at 68 in 1905 and 4 from 5 tests at 29.50 in 1905
> So it seems fairly reasonable to suggest that he wasn't the bowler he used to be
>
> > *Charley Turner RM
>
> In 2 tests in a series where Turner was 32 and took 11 wickets @ 28.63, way over his career average
> >
> > Spin
> > *George Giffen RoB/RM
>
> In 5 tests
>
> > *Hugh Trumble RoB
>
> In 2 tests
>
> > Jack . Saunders SLA
>
> They never played
>
> > Warwick Armstrong LB
>
> hardly a leading bowler
> >
> > * Players taking over 100 wickets in Ashes Tests No other Australian players took 100 Ashes wickets until Grimmett and O'Reilly reached the mark in the 1930s, as did Lindwall in the 1950s.
> >
> > The fact that four bowlers from Jackson's time exceeded he 100 wicket mark that shows how strong the bowling was that Jackson faced
> Except that he didn't play them much.

Number of Test played by Australians is indicated by a number after the Australian names

1893 Three match series 2 Tests played in by Jackson
Turner 3
Trumble 3
Giffen 3

1896 Three match series 3 Tests played in by Jackson
Jones 3
Giffen 3
Trumble 3

1899 Five match series Five Tests played in by Jackson
Jones 5
Trumble 5
Noble 5

1902 Five match series - Five Tests played in by Jackson

Jones 2
Noble 5
Trumble 3
Saunders 4

1905 Five match series - Five Tests played in by Jackson

Noble 5
Cotter 3
RH

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 12:35:40 PM UTC, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 26/03/2022 12:18, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:55:19 AM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> I wonder if Jackson's Test average is boosted by a few lucky things; so few Tests,
> --snip-
> >> only 1 opposition.
> >
> > Between 1892 and 1905 playing other countries would have almost certainly boosted his average
> Maybe not if he had played in the 1898/99 series in SA, where England
> averaged 19.15 overall. They averaged 27.20 in 1895/96, the only other
> series v SA during the period.
>
> --
> David North

The England sides put out in the 1890s were pretty feeble. Only when the
googly came along early in the 19th century were they a force to be reckoned with Faulkner, Vogler and Swartz being really dangerous, especially in home Tests when they bowled on the mat. RH

In message <ja8fkqF1q03U1@mid.individual.net>, David North
<nospam@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>On 26/03/2022 12:18, Hamish Laws wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:55:19 AM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> I wonder if Jackson's Test average is boosted by a few lucky things;
>>>so few Tests,
>
>--snip-
>
>>> only 1 opposition.
>> Between 1892 and 1905 playing other countries would have almost
>>certainly boosted his average
>
>Maybe not if he had played in the 1898/99 series in SA, where England
>averaged 19.15 overall. They averaged 27.20 in 1895/96, the only other
>series v SA during the period.
>

I suspect that many of the top England batsmen didn't go on those tours,
which would be likely to reduce the average.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:18:53 PM UTC+10, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> I think he's got a case to be the best test batsman before Hobbs but there are certainly other people in contention

Looking at stats only for batsman pre WW1;

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=20+Jul+1914;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Hobbs clearly stands out.

Does W Bardsley's record match Jacksons?
Bardsley 20 matches, 33 innings, 1490 runs, 45.15 average, 5 100s, 7 50s, 0 Not Outs
Jackson 20 matches, 33 innings, 1415 runs, 48.79 average, 5 100s, 6 50s, 4 Not Outs
Bardsley did that in 3-4 years. Jackson 12.
8 of Bardsley's Test were in England.
All things being equal, I'd favour someone who played home and away over someone who only played home. Bardsley was also an opener, which ever-so-slightly impresses me more. Jackson declared 2 of his own innings when he was Not Out.

Jackson's low Test numbers still irk me. When I do Test comparisons 20 is my minimum, and he only just makes it. By WW1 C Hill and Trumper both averaged 39 and had played 49/48 Tests each.

Stats for their first 33 innings;
Jackson 1415 runs @ 48.79, 5 100s
C Hill 1452 runs @ 45.38, 3 100s (plus scores of 96, 99, 98, 97)[the last 3 in consecutive innings, poor chap]
A Faulkner (SAf) 1431 runs @ 47.7, 3 100s

On 26/03/2022 23:33, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:18:53 PM UTC+10, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I think he's got a case to be the best test batsman before Hobbs but there are certainly other people in contention
>
> Looking at stats only for batsman pre WW1;
>
> https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=20+Jul+1914;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
>
> Hobbs clearly stands out.
>
> Does W Bardsley's record match Jacksons?
> Bardsley 20 matches, 33 innings, 1490 runs, 45.15 average, 5 100s, 7 50s, 0 Not Outs
> Jackson 20 matches, 33 innings, 1415 runs, 48.79 average, 5 100s, 6 50s, 4 Not Outs
> Bardsley did that in 3-4 years. Jackson 12.
> 8 of Bardsley's Test were in England.
> All things being equal, I'd favour someone who played home and away over someone who only played home. Bardsley was also an opener, which ever-so-slightly impresses me more. Jackson declared 2 of his own innings when he was Not Out.

Only one - Trent Bridge 1905 - at 12:47 on day 3, setting Aus 402 to
win, and depriving himself of a likely century. If anything he could
have declared earlier.

--
David North

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 1:44:54 AM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> Here is an all time England eleven
>
> Hobbs
> Sutcliffe
> May
> Dexter
> Jackson RFM
> Botham RFM
> Knott wk
> Verity SLA
> Trueman RF
> Richardson RF
> Lohmann RFM

I thought SF Barnes made most England XI teams.

In message <af29552d-2f06-44eb-bc9e-6e1dcda80d09n@googlegroups.com>,
jack fredricks <jzfredricks@gmail.com> writes
>On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:18:53 PM UTC+10, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I think he's got a case to be the best test batsman before Hobbs but
>>there are certainly other people in contention
>
>Looking at stats only for batsman pre WW1;
>
>https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanma
>x1=20+Jul+1914;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
<snip>

I'm tempted to make a case for South Africa's Herbie Taylor, though he
only played in 11 Tests pre-WW1, based on his great series in 1913-14.

From Wikipedia:
Taylor's greatest achievement is generally reckoned to be scoring 508
runs at an average of 50.80 in the 1913–14 Test series against
England, in spite of English bowler Sydney Barnes taking a record 49
wickets in the series at 10.93. The cricket historian H.S. Altham wrote:
"The English cricketers were unanimous that finer batting than his
against Barnes at his best they never hoped to see." Neville Cardus
noted it was "perhaps the most skilful of all Test performances by a
batsman." It also led Cardus to count Taylor as "one of the six greatest
batsmen of the post-Grace period".

I concede that one can't really put him ahead of Hobbs, though.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 8:16:28 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 1:44:54 AM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > Here is an all time England eleven
> >
> > Hobbs
> > Sutcliffe
> > May
> > Dexter
> > Jackson RFM
> > Botham RFM
> > Knott wk
> > Verity SLA
> > Trueman RF
> > Richardson RF
> > Lohmann RFM
>
> I thought SF Barnes made most England XI teams.

It is a toss up between Barnes and Lohmann. Lohmann ijst edges it

If I had put Barnes in instead of Trueman and Richardson \i would have had too many RFMs . RH

On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 10:04:50 AM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
> In message <af29552d-2f06-44eb...@googlegroups.com>,
> jack fredricks <jzfre...@gmail.com> writes
> >On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:18:53 PM UTC+10, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> I think he's got a case to be the best test batsman before Hobbs but
> >>there are certainly other people in contention
> >
> >Looking at stats only for batsman pre WW1;
> >
> >https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanma
> >x1=20+Jul+1914;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
> <snip>
>
> I'm tempted to make a case for South Africa's Herbie Taylor, though he
> only played in 11 Tests pre-WW1, based on his great series in 1913-14.

Just as a batsman the great SA all rounder Faulkner has claims to being the greatest SA batsman before Dudley Nourse jnr who averaged 53 in Tests. RH

>
> From Wikipedia:
> Taylor's greatest achievement is generally reckoned to be scoring 508
> runs at an average of 50.80 in the 1913–14 Test series against
> England, in spite of English bowler Sydney Barnes taking a record 49
> wickets in the series at 10.93.

The fact that all were taken on matting wickets which puts an asterisk against that particular series haul. Matting gave a great deal of help . RH

The cricket historian H.S. Altham wrote:
> "The English cricketers were unanimous that finer batting than his
> against Barnes at his best they never hoped to see." Neville Cardus
> noted it was "perhaps the most skilful of all Test performances by a
> batsman." It also led Cardus to count Taylor as "one of the six greatest
> batsmen of the post-Grace period".
>
> I concede that one can't really put him ahead of Hobbs, though.
> --
> John Hall
> "Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
> But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
> Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

In message <85afc6f0-8636-484e-9b58-5ca83d68a8c8n@googlegroups.com>, RH
<anywhere156@gmail.com> writes
>On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 10:04:50 AM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
>> In message <af29552d-2f06-44eb...@googlegroups.com>,
>> jack fredricks <jzfre...@gmail.com> writes
>> >On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:18:53 PM UTC+10,
>> >hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> I think he's got a case to be the best test batsman before Hobbs but
>> >>there are certainly other people in contention
>> >
>> >Looking at stats only for batsman pre WW1;
>> >
>> >https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanma
>> >x1=20+Jul+1914;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
>> <snip>
>>
>> I'm tempted to make a case for South Africa's Herbie Taylor, though he
>> only played in 11 Tests pre-WW1, based on his great series in 1913-14.
>
>Just as a batsman the great SA all rounder Faulkner has claims to being
>the greatest SA batsman before Dudley Nourse jnr who averaged 53 in
>Tests. RH
>
>
>
>>
>> From Wikipedia:
>> Taylor's greatest achievement is generally reckoned to be scoring 508
>> runs at an average of 50.80 in the 1913–14 Test series against
>> England, in spite of English bowler Sydney Barnes taking a record 49
>> wickets in the series at 10.93.
>
>The fact that all were taken on matting wickets which puts an asterisk
>against that particular series haul. Matting gave a great deal of
>help . RH

Yes, but to Barnes rather than to Taylor.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 10:44:49 AM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
> In message <85afc6f0-8636-484e...@googlegroups.com>, RH
> <anywh...@gmail.com> writes
> >On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 10:04:50 AM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
> >> In message <af29552d-2f06-44eb...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> jack fredricks <jzfre...@gmail.com> writes
> >> >On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:18:53 PM UTC+10,
> >> >hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> I think he's got a case to be the best test batsman before Hobbs but
> >> >>there are certainly other people in contention
> >> >
> >> >Looking at stats only for batsman pre WW1;
> >> >
> >> >https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanma
> >> >x1=20+Jul+1914;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> I'm tempted to make a case for South Africa's Herbie Taylor, though he
> >> only played in 11 Tests pre-WW1, based on his great series in 1913-14.
> >
> >Just as a batsman the great SA all rounder Faulkner has claims to being
> >the greatest SA batsman before Dudley Nourse jnr who averaged 53 in
> >Tests. RH
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> From Wikipedia:
> >> Taylor's greatest achievement is generally reckoned to be scoring 508
> >> runs at an average of 50.80 in the 1913–14 Test series against
> >> England, in spite of English bowler Sydney Barnes taking a record 49
> >> wickets in the series at 10.93.
> >
> >The fact that all were taken on matting wickets which puts an asterisk
> >against that particular series haul. Matting gave a great deal of
> >help . RH
> Yes, but to Barnes rather than to Taylor.
> --
> John Hall
> "Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
> But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
> Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

An amazing fact about Barnes' 49 wickets was that they were achieved in 4 not 5 Tests. That was because Barnes refused to play the fifth Tests because the MCC refused to pay for his wif, one of many disputes he had withe the cricketing pwers that be, viz: .

The cricketer S.F. Barnes
(Warwickshire, Lancashire, Staffordshire and England)

‘E were a contrary fellow,
Nay, reet awk’ard.
There wern’t no doing
Nowt but business wi’ him
From beginning to end.

A Staffordshire man ‘e were,
Not that ‘e cared for that
Except when brass t’were there
And world gave its due to ‘is pride
Wi’ a pocketful o’ gold.

Couldn’t be doing wi’ maisters;
Allas his own man
Even in’t days when maisters were maisters
And a workin’ man had owt
But his hands and brain and fear.

But, my, ‘e could bowl
Forty nine wickets in South Africa
Just afore the Great War,
Then cussed booger refused t’ play in last test
‘Cos his missus wern’t paid for!

Yet ‘e had ‘is cricketing pride.
In nineteen eleven at Sydney
There’s Johnny Douglas takin’ new ball afore ‘im:
Bowled suet puddings out o’ temper,
Takes four for a hundred and plenty.

Next up coom Melbourne;
Barnes’s given new ball.
Bardsley, Kellaway, Hill, Minnett and Armstrong out –
‘E’s taken five for six afore dinner
And ‘is place in t’ world back again.

‘E grew old but not like most,
Still a pro when passed sixty.
Action never went you see,
Allas high and mighty
Like the man.

RH

On 27/03/2022 10:43, John Hall wrote:
> In message <85afc6f0-8636-484e-9b58-5ca83d68a8c8n@googlegroups.com>, RH
> <anywhere156@gmail.com> writes
>> On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 10:04:50 AM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
>>> In message <af29552d-2f06-44eb...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> jack fredricks <jzfre...@gmail.com> writes
>>> >On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:18:53 PM UTC+10,
>>> >hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> >> I think he's got a case to be the best test batsman before Hobbs but
>>> >>there are certainly other people in contention
>>> >
>>> >Looking at stats only for batsman pre WW1;
>>> >
>>> >https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanma
>>>
>>> >x1=20+Jul+1914;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> I'm tempted to make a case for South Africa's Herbie Taylor, though he
>>> only played in 11 Tests pre-WW1, based on his great series in 1913-14.
>>
>> Just as a batsman the great SA all rounder Faulkner has claims to
>> being the greatest SA batsman before  Dudley Nourse jnr who averaged
>> 53 in Tests. RH
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> From Wikipedia:
>>> Taylor's greatest achievement is generally reckoned to be scoring 508
>>> runs at an average of 50.80 in the 1913–14 Test series against
>>> England, in spite of English bowler Sydney Barnes taking a record 49
>>> wickets in the series at 10.93.
>>
>> The fact that  all were taken on matting wickets which puts an
>> asterisk against that particular series  haul. Matting  gave a great
>> deal of help . RH
>
> Yes, but to Barnes rather than to Taylor.

Neither Taylor nor Faulkner did well against Barnes in 1912. Taylor
averaged 11.33 (HS 31) and Faulkner 7.66 (HS 15). Faulkner was an
established Test player of 6 years' experience, though, whereas Taylor
made his debut in the 1912 Triangular.

Faulkner was dismissed by Barnes 5 times out of 6 in the only series in
which he faced him. He moved to England in 1912, so managed to avoid the
1913/14 series.

--
David North

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 11:35:40 PM UTC+11, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 26/03/2022 12:18, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:55:19 AM UTC+11, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> I wonder if Jackson's Test average is boosted by a few lucky things; so few Tests,
> --snip-
> >> only 1 opposition.
> >
> > Between 1892 and 1905 playing other countries would have almost certainly boosted his average
> Maybe not if he had played in the 1898/99 series in SA, where England
> averaged 19.15 overall. They averaged 27.20 in 1895/96, the only other
> series v SA during the period.

Maybe, but a big question there is how many of the top batsmen were playing for England in those series?
98/99 had Warner, JT Tydsley, Mitchell, Cuttell, Milligan, Board, Wilson leading the runs - Tydsley played 30 odd tests and averaged 30, Warner averaged 23.92 the rest look to have averaged less - most of them under 15 (apart from Trott & Archer who only played 1 test and averaged 31)

in 1905-06 it was Fane, Crawford, Relf, Moon, Denton, Warner, Blythe, Hayes
Fane had the best career average of 26