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aus+uk / uk.sport.cricket / Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

SubjectAuthor
* Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketRH
`* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
 +- Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining EnglishDavid North
 `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketRH
  `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
   `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketRH
    `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
     `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketRH
      `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
       +* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
       |`* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining EnglishDavid North
       | +* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketMike Holmans
       | |`* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
       | | +* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketGerrit 't Hart
       | | |+* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketMike Holmans
       | | ||`- Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
       | | |`* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
       | | | `- Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining EnglishDavid North
       | | `- Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining EnglishDavid North
       | `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
       |  `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining EnglishDavid North
       |   `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketMike Holmans
       |    +* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
       |    |`* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketRH
       |    | `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
       |    |  +- Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining Englishjohnson
       |    |  `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining EnglishAndy Walker
       |    |   `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
       |    |    `- Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining EnglishAndy Walker
       |    `- Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketDavid North
       `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketRH
        +- Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketNasti Chestikov
        `* Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketjack fredricks
         `- Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricketRH

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Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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Subject: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 16:27 UTC

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2022/04/20/start-english-crickets-revolution-five-day-matches-larger-top/
Here is a radical thought for Rob. Why not have a top division of 10 teams all playing five-day cricket to mirror Test cricket?

They play each other once, so nine games a season and, if necessary, a round robin semi-final and final at Lord’s. The two teams that reach the final would then play a maximum 11 games a summer. It significantly reduces the amount of cricket played by most teams and allows for best v best more often than not by concentrating talent in the top tier.

With two overseas players per team that leaves 90 places for English cricketers all playing five-day cricket on good pitches. The standard would be good. Cricketers would be playing the same format as England players are picked for, which is five-day cricket. We would be producing players used to playing on better wickets which means bowlers would have to bowl quicker, spinners turn the ball more and batsmen would have to know how to bat for seven to eight hours.

Read more at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2022/04/20/start-english-crickets-revolution-five-day-matches-larger-top/

RH

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:45 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 2:27:35 AM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> With two overseas players per team that leaves 90 places for English cricketers all playing five-day cricket on good pitches. The standard would be good. Cricketers would be playing the same format as England players are picked for, which is five-day cricket. We would be producing players used to playing on better wickets which means bowlers would have to bowl quicker, spinners turn the ball more and batsmen would have to know how to bat for seven to eight hours.

Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this.

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English
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 by: David North - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 04:48 UTC

On 21/04/2022 20:45, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 2:27:35 AM UTC+10, RH wrote:
>> With two overseas players per team that leaves 90 places for English cricketers all playing five-day cricket on good pitches. The standard would be good. Cricketers would be playing the same format as England players are picked for, which is five-day cricket. We would be producing players used to playing on better wickets which means bowlers would have to bowl quicker, spinners turn the ball more and batsmen would have to know how to bat for seven to eight hours.
>
> Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this.

No, it's from Vaughan's article.

--
David North

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 06:55 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:45:48 PM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 2:27:35 AM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > With two overseas players per team that leaves 90 places for English cricketers all playing five-day cricket on good pitches. The standard would be good. Cricketers would be playing the same format as England players are picked for, which is five-day cricket. We would be producing players used to playing on better wickets which means bowlers would have to bowl quicker, spinners turn the ball more and batsmen would have to know how to bat for seven to eight hours.
> Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this.

If you can't understand when something is a quote with the extract is topped and tailed by as a url linking to the full article with the words "read more at " with the url at the bottom of the quote you are even dimmer than than I thought... RH

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 08:20 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 4:55:17 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> If you can't understand when something is a quote with the extract is topped and tailed by as a url linking to the full article with the words "read more at " with the url at the bottom of the quote you are even dimmer than than I thought... RH

If only we had punctuation to mark something as a quotation...
Or simple English to say "here's what Bob said;".

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 08:53 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 9:20:37 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 4:55:17 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > If you can't understand when something is a quote with the extract is topped and tailed by as a url linking to the full article with the words "read more at " with the url at the bottom of the quote you are even dimmer than than I thought... RH
> If only we had punctuation to mark something as a quotation...
> Or simple English to say "here's what Bob said;".

Translation: jzfre at full shameless moronic wriggle... RH

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 10:08 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 6:53:55 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> Translation: jzfre at full shameless moronic wriggle... RH

100% my fault for barely paying attention to what you write.

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 10:57 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 11:08:15 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 6:53:55 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > Translation: jzfre at full shameless moronic wriggle... RH
> 100% my fault for barely paying attention to what you write.

Translation: jzfre shows his inability to apologise gracefully and adds a lie by pretending he is not obsessed with abusing me.

So there we have jzfre , a particularly dim fellow addicted to engaging in vulgar abuse . RH

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 11:14 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 8:57:34 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> Translation: jzfre shows his inability to apologise gracefully and adds a lie by pretending he is not obsessed with abusing me.

What's there to apologise about?

My first post; "Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this."

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 12:28 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 9:14:55 PM UTC+10, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 8:57:34 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > Translation: jzfre shows his inability to apologise gracefully and adds a lie by pretending he is not obsessed with abusing me.
> What's there to apologise about?
>
> My first post; "Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this."

Now, as for what this fine chap MV said (ok, he's a tad racist);

1. "they play each other once, so nine games a season"
Good. Less is more. Rob Key also believes this. He wants 3 x 6 team tiers. You'll recall I also want a 6 team top level - my expanded Lions idea.

2. "and, if necessary, a round robin semi-final and final at Lord’s.."
I don't mind a hybrid system like this. I've said for ages some of these finals should be best of 3 series. Then you really get a good idea who the best team is. Probably a better idea for white ball cricket than red, though, due to time.

3. "The two teams that reach the final would then play a maximum 11 games a summer. It significantly reduces the amount of cricket played by most teams and allows for best v best more often than not by concentrating talent in the top tier."
Fair enough

4. With two overseas players per team that leaves 90 places for English cricketers all playing five-day cricket on good pitches. The standard would be good. Cricketers would be playing the same format as England players are picked for, which is five-day cricket. We would be producing players used to playing on better wickets which means bowlers would have to bowl quicker, spinners turn the ball more and batsmen would have to know how to bat for seven to eight hours.

Lumping this all together.
Yet another cricket notary dumping on County Cricket.
Yes, CC needs better pitches. Better for quicks. Better for spinners. No mention of the legion of medium pacers current plaguing English cricket. Funny that.

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 15:28 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 12:14:55 PM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 8:57:34 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > Translation: jzfre shows his inability to apologise gracefully and adds a lie by pretending he is not obsessed with abusing me.
> What's there to apologise about?
>
> My first post; "Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this."

In your stupidity you thought it was me and you thought you would attack me because you mistakenly thought I had contradicted myself. Talk about Mr Single Figures IQ .....RH

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: nasti.ch...@gmail.com (Nasti Chestikov)
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 by: Nasti Chestikov - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 17:06 UTC

On Friday, 22 April 2022 at 16:28:20 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 12:14:55 PM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 8:57:34 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > > Translation: jzfre shows his inability to apologise gracefully and adds a lie by pretending he is not obsessed with abusing me.
> > What's there to apologise about?
> >
> > My first post; "Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this."
> In your stupidity you thought it was me and you thought you would attack me because you mistakenly thought I had contradicted myself. Talk about Mr Single Figures IQ .....RH

Is this the same Michael Vaughan who resigned the England captaincy amidst a flood of tears (which somewhat negated the stereotypical Northern "hard man" image) and asked if anyone present had a tissue?

I believe his views on anything should be disregarded.

The tough-as-anything miners 'oop North must just love him. They went from Stallone to Boy George in one sentence.

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 23:23 UTC

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 1:28:20 AM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 12:14:55 PM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 8:57:34 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > > Translation: jzfre shows his inability to apologise gracefully and adds a lie by pretending he is not obsessed with abusing me.
> > What's there to apologise about?
> >
> > My first post; "Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this."
> In your stupidity you thought it was me

I thought someone had hacked your account, or was pretending to be you
RH

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English
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 by: David North - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 08:51 UTC

On 22/04/2022 13:28, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 9:14:55 PM UTC+10, jack fredricks wrote:
>> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 8:57:34 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
>>> Translation: jzfre shows his inability to apologise gracefully and adds a lie by pretending he is not obsessed with abusing me.
>> What's there to apologise about?
>>
>> My first post; "Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this."
>
> Now, as for what this fine chap MV said (ok, he's a tad racist);
>
> 1. "they play each other once, so nine games a season"
> Good. Less is more.

Not good if the more is white-ball cricket, which is what usually happens.

> Rob Key also believes this. He wants 3 x 6 team tiers. You'll recall I also want a 6 team top level - my expanded Lions idea.
>
> 2. "and, if necessary, a round robin semi-final and final at Lord’s."
> I don't mind a hybrid system like this. I've said for ages some of these finals should be best of 3 series. Then you really get a good idea who the best team is. Probably a better idea for white ball cricket than red, though, due to time.

In a competition with a full round-robin stage, if you want to know who
the best team is, you're probably better off looking at the table.
That's not really what the final would be for.

--
David North

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 08:52 UTC

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 12:23:36 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 1:28:20 AM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 12:14:55 PM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 8:57:34 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> > > > Translation: jzfre shows his inability to apologise gracefully and adds a lie by pretending he is not obsessed with abusing me.
> > > What's there to apologise about?
> > >
> > > My first post; "Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this."
> > In your stupidity you thought it was me
> I thought someone had hacked your account, or was pretending to be you
> RH

'course you did , Mr Single Digit IQ man, 'course you did ... RH

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 12:15:48 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 11:15 UTC

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 09:51:35 +0100, David North
<nospam@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>On 22/04/2022 13:28, jack fredricks wrote:
>> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 9:14:55 PM UTC+10, jack fredricks wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 8:57:34 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
>>>> Translation: jzfre shows his inability to apologise gracefully and adds a lie by pretending he is not obsessed with abusing me.
>>> What's there to apologise about?
>>>
>>> My first post; "Surely this isn't the real RH saying all this."
>>
>> Now, as for what this fine chap MV said (ok, he's a tad racist);
>>
>> 1. "they play each other once, so nine games a season"
>> Good. Less is more.
>
>Not good if the more is white-ball cricket, which is what usually happens.

From such straws as I see floating in the wind, I don't think there is
any appetite for more white-ball cricket. I suspect the market is
saturated.

It's obvious that they're going to design a new first-class season,
and the noises are about fewer games, but not shuffling them to the
edges of the season when the pitches are more unreliable. I can't say
it fills me with delight, but I'm persuaded that it's the way forward
which makes most sense.

I don't have any particular criteria, but I sort of trust Rob Key.
He's spent enough time as a county captain and been involved in enough
controversial arguments about the fairness of competition and counties
gaming the system for me to expect that what he'd approve would
produce a competition of cricketing merit.

There's one point in Vaughan's idea I particularly dispute - that they
should play 5-day games because that's what Tests are. No. Tests are 5
days because they contain the best of the best, who make fewer
mistakes and are more difficult to get out. At what is at least in
theory a lower level, that makes it far more difficult for an underdog
side to play out for the draw - which is the reason that Test nowadays
are allowed to be four-day games if they involve weaker sides. (Eng v
Ire, for instance.) I'd certainly accept the argument that a Grand
Final should be a five-day affair, but as discussed below, I'm not a
fan of Grand Finals if the main season is structured on merit to start
with.

I'm guessing that when the proposal emerges, I'll find it a little
disappointing but will understand that, say, they've put so much into
the 100 that they can't back off it now and that has consequences.
What will also emerge a few hours later is a furious rant from the
usual suspect entitled something like "The ECB have decided to destroy
English cricket", probably focussing its angriest protests at the
targets for participation by hitherto under-represented sections of
the community.

>
>> Rob Key also believes this. He wants 3 x 6 team tiers. You'll recall I also want a 6 team top level - my expanded Lions idea.
>>
>> 2. "and, if necessary, a round robin semi-final and final at Lord’s."
>> I don't mind a hybrid system like this. I've said for ages some of these finals should be best of 3 series. Then you really get a good idea who the best team is. Probably a better idea for white ball cricket than red, though, due to time.
>
>In a competition with a full round-robin stage, if you want to know who
>the best team is, you're probably better off looking at the table.
>That's not really what the final would be for.

It strikes me that the obsession with finals and play-offs is based on
a misunderstanding of American sport. In the major sports, the
elite-level league games aren't organised on an order of merit, and
the season isn't all-play-all, so the regular season ends with a
number of candidate league-toppers, and having some form of tournament
to resolve the pecking order makes complete sense. The big build-up to
it serves both commercial and sporting goals.

Grafting the commercially-attractive bit on to competitions which
don't need them for sporting logic is very silly. Not that that will
stop the marketing men from just about insisting on them.

Cheers,

Mike

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 11:16 UTC

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 6:51:36 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co..uk wrote:
> > 2. "and, if necessary, a round robin semi-final and final at Lord’s."
> > I don't mind a hybrid system like this. I've said for ages some of these finals should be best of 3 series. Then you really get a good idea who the best team is. Probably a better idea for white ball cricket than red, though, due to time.
> In a competition with a full round-robin stage, if you want to know who
> the best team is, you're probably better off looking at the table.
> That's not really what the final would be for.

In this context he (MV) was talking about having semi and grand finals. So not a pure RR.

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 11:23 UTC

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 9:15:52 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >In a competition with a full round-robin stage, if you want to know who
> >the best team is, you're probably better off looking at the table.
> >That's not really what the final would be for.
> It strikes me that the obsession with finals and play-offs is based on
> a misunderstanding of American sport.

Well, the Sheffield Shield has had a full RR followed by a single-match grand final for how long? Forever?

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: gth...@gmail.com (Gerrit 't Hart)
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 by: Gerrit 't Hart - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 11:43 UTC

On Saturday, 23 April 2022 at 19:23:10 UTC+8, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:

> Well, the Sheffield Shield has had a full RR followed by a single-match grand final for how long? Forever?

The Sheffield Shield final 9 is a 5-day match between the top two teams and up to recently if the match ended in a draw the team at the top of the ladder would be declared the winner. Additionally, the match was played at the home ground of the top team. This was a recipe for totally negative cricket by the top team that would just bat on and on in the first innings because they did not have to win. Recently CA introduced bonus points for both batting and bowling in the respective first innings. If the match ends in a draw then the bonus points decide the winner. The match is still held at the home ground of the top team. This format seems to work better.

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
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 by: Mike Holmans - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 12:07 UTC

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 04:43:08 -0700 (PDT), "Gerrit 't Hart"
<gthart@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, 23 April 2022 at 19:23:10 UTC+8, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Well, the Sheffield Shield has had a full RR followed by a single-match grand final for how long? Forever?
>
>The Sheffield Shield final 9 is a 5-day match between the top two teams and up to recently if the match ended in a draw the team at the top of the ladder would be declared the winner. Additionally, the match was played at the home ground of the top team. This was a recipe for totally negative cricket by the top team that would just bat on and on in the first innings because they did not have to win. Recently CA introduced bonus points for both batting and bowling in the respective first innings. If the match ends in a draw then the bonus points decide the winner. The match is still held at the home ground of the top team. This format seems to work better.

If it's jzf's theory that the Sheffield Shield is better than the CC
because it introduced a grand final at Kerry Packer's request, he's
entirely welcome to it. They'd gone a happy 90 years without one until
an Aus broadcaster wanted to commercialise the sport on the American
model.

Cheers,

Mike

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 12:09 UTC

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 9:43:09 PM UTC+10, gth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 23 April 2022 at 19:23:10 UTC+8, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Well, the Sheffield Shield has had a full RR followed by a single-match grand final for how long? Forever?
> The Sheffield Shield final 9 is a 5-day match between the top two teams and up to recently if the match ended in a draw the team at the top of the ladder would be declared the winner. Additionally, the match was played at the home ground of the top team. This was a recipe for totally negative cricket by the top team that would just bat on and on in the first innings because they did not have to win. Recently CA introduced bonus points for both batting and bowling in the respective first innings. If the match ends in a draw then the bonus points decide the winner. The match is still held at the home ground of the top team. This format seems to work better.

Thanks for that.
SS rules;
"How does the points system work again?
Teams get six points for an outright win, one point for a draw, plus 0.01 of a bonus point for every run over 200 they score during the first 100 overs of their first innings (ie: 350 after 100 overs nets you 1.5 bonus points) and 0.1 of a bonus point for every wicket a team takes during the first 100 overs of their opponent's first innings (ie: 10 wickets before 100 first-innings overs elapses nets you 1 point)."

Ranji Trophy also looks like it's some combination of Round Robin, followed by a semi-final then a final.
The format has changed a lot.
Interestingly, in the case of a draw the team with the first innings lead was declared the winner.

NZ - a partial Round Robin. Partial RR. 6 teams, 8 rounds, winner based on points (ie no finals).

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 12:15 UTC

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 10:07:25 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> If it's jzf's theory that the Sheffield Shield is better than the CC
> because it introduced a grand final at Kerry Packer's request, he's
> entirely welcome to it.

Nah. Just idle musings.

SS is better than CC because it produced more Test-quality players.

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English
cricket
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 08:08:44 +0100
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 by: David North - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 07:08 UTC

On 23/04/2022 12:23, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 9:15:52 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>>> In a competition with a full round-robin stage, if you want to know who
>>> the best team is, you're probably better off looking at the table.
>>> That's not really what the final would be for.
>> It strikes me that the obsession with finals and play-offs is based on
>> a misunderstanding of American sport.
>
> Well, the Sheffield Shield has had a full RR followed by a single-match grand final for how long? Forever?

Since 1982/83.

--
David North

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From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English
cricket
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 by: David North - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 08:08 UTC

On 23/04/2022 13:09, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 9:43:09 PM UTC+10, gth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, 23 April 2022 at 19:23:10 UTC+8, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Well, the Sheffield Shield has had a full RR followed by a single-match grand final for how long? Forever?
>> The Sheffield Shield final 9 is a 5-day match between the top two teams and up to recently if the match ended in a draw the team at the top of the ladder would be declared the winner. Additionally, the match was played at the home ground of the top team. This was a recipe for totally negative cricket by the top team that would just bat on and on in the first innings because they did not have to win. Recently CA introduced bonus points for both batting and bowling in the respective first innings. If the match ends in a draw then the bonus points decide the winner. The match is still held at the home ground of the top team. This format seems to work better.
>
> Thanks for that.
> SS rules;
> "How does the points system work again?
> Teams get six points for an outright win, one point for a draw, plus 0.01 of a bonus point for every run over 200 they score during the first 100 overs of their first innings (ie: 350 after 100 overs nets you 1.5 bonus points) and 0.1 of a bonus point for every wicket a team takes during the first 100 overs of their opponent's first innings (ie: 10 wickets before 100 first-innings overs elapses nets you 1 point)."

Of course, once the bonus points have been decided (after both sides
have batted for 100 overs or been bowled out), whichever side has most
bonus points still only has to draw.

> Ranji Trophy also looks like it's some combination of Round Robin, followed by a semi-final then a final.

This season (which was reduced because of COVID), there was a group
stage (8 Elite Groups of 4, plus a Plate Group of 6, with each team
playing 3 group matches), followed by a preliminary quarter-final
between the winner of the Plate Group and the Elite Group winner with
the worst record. The winners of the PQF join the other 7 Elite Group
winners in the quarter-finals.

Originally there were going to be 5 Elite Groups of 6, plus a Plate
Group of 8 (presumably with 5 group matches per team).

> The format has changed a lot.
> Interestingly, in the case of a draw the team with the first innings lead was declared the winner.

Better than one team only needing a draw from the start, but the
emphasis tends to be on getting a first-innings lead and then ensuring
that you don't lose.

--
David North

Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English cricket

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From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Michael Vaughan 's unwitting recipe for utterly ruining English
cricket
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 by: David North - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 08:22 UTC

On 23/04/2022 12:16, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 6:51:36 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>>> 2. "and, if necessary, a round robin semi-final and final at Lord’s."
>>> I don't mind a hybrid system like this. I've said for ages some of these finals should be best of 3 series. Then you really get a good idea who the best team is. Probably a better idea for white ball cricket than red, though, due to time.
>> In a competition with a full round-robin stage, if you want to know who
>> the best team is, you're probably better off looking at the table.
>> That's not really what the final would be for.
>
> In this context he (MV) was talking about having semi and grand finals. So not a pure RR.

Still a full round-robin to start with. The more rounds in the knockout
stage, the less likely it is that the best team will win.

--
David North

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