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aus+uk / uk.sport.cricket / Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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* Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideRH
`* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sidemike
 `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideHamish Laws
  +- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideRH
  `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
   `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMichael Gooding
    +* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
    |`- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sidemax.it
    +- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideRH
    `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideHamish Laws
     +* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideRH
     |`* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideNajeeb ybo
     | `- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideRH
     `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideAndy Walker
      +- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideRH
      `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideDavid North
       `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideAndy Walker
        +* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
        |`* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideAndy Walker
        | `- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sidejack fredricks
        +- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideDavid North
        `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
         `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideDavid North
          `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
           `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideAndy Walker
            +- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sidemax.it
            +* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
            |+- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
            |`* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideAndy Walker
            | +* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
            | |+* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sidemax.it
            | ||`- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideRH
            | |+* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideAndy Walker
            | ||+- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
            | ||`- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideJohn Hall
            | |+- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sidejack fredricks
            | |+- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideHamish Laws
            | |`* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sidesteve hague
            | | `- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sidemax.it
            | `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
            |  `* Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideAndy Walker
            |   `- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sideMike Holmans
            `- Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the sidejack fredricks

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Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

<t6p07h1932r3t03q8ss7bmn0i60mt0ro27@4ax.com>

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From: max...@tea.time (max.it)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 00:30:18 +0100
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 by: max.it - Mon, 2 May 2022 23:30 UTC

On Mon, 2 May 2022 23:18:56 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 02/05/2022 11:44, Mike Holmans wrote:
>[...]
>> The point still stands that the most successful current Test teams
>> have 7 of their white-ball international team, and that Australia
>> tried going down the road of almost complete separation 10 years ago
>> and have abandoned it as being highly detrimental.
>
> Lot of water under the bridge in the last ten years. Also, results
>in the past couple of years have been strongly affected by the stresses and
>strains of "bubbling" and other related aspects of dealing with Covid.
>

Bubbling under the bridge sounds like no direction has been travelled.

>> I'd agree that that is not the result I would have expected, but it
>> certainly leads me to doubt Andy's prediction.
>
> To repeat -- follow the money. Many players are turning their
>backs on "long" cricket. Today, it's mostly experienced players who
>are thereby extending their careers. But "The Secret Cricketer" points
>out that if the choice is to spend April in England bowling for a large
>part of four days in cold damp weather or in a sunny clime in front of
>a large crowd bowling four overs per match for more money, it's a no-
>brainer.
>

Mr Pollard of recent WI captaincy has retired from international
cricket in order to play at the highest level.

> I just don't see how the CC, however "interesting" it may be
>to us purists, is viable long term. It will take a while, but the whole
>balance of top cricket is bound to shift. Forms of cricket that run at
>a loss will decline, those that generate large profits will thrive, and
>top players will follow the success. So T20 good, Test cricket good in
>England for the time being, not so hot elsewhere, ListA a bit so-so, CC
>bad [FTAOD, not bad cricket, just bad for the game's finances]. I don't
>know where "The Hundred" will fit in longer-term; I think it will need a
>few years to bed in, but I wish "Trent Rockets" had been an East Midlands
>side rather than a few Notts players and a lot of imports while the rest
>of the Notts side is playing elsewhere.

The Hundred around here means motorcycle road races in Tandragee that
eventually emerged from bubbling under the bridge on Saturday only to
be popped by rain all day. All cricket was cancelled as well and the
only Ulster rugby comms was on BBC radio Scotland (barf). Some
Saturdays just don't work out nicely.

max.it

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Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 02:49:00 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Tue, 3 May 2022 01:49 UTC

On Mon, 2 May 2022 23:18:56 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 02/05/2022 11:44, Mike Holmans wrote:
>[...]
>> The point still stands that the most successful current Test teams
>> have 7 of their white-ball international team, and that Australia
>> tried going down the road of almost complete separation 10 years ago
>> and have abandoned it as being highly detrimental.
>
> Lot of water under the bridge in the last ten years. Also, results
>in the past couple of years have been strongly affected by the stresses and
>strains of "bubbling" and other related aspects of dealing with Covid.
>
>> I'd agree that that is not the result I would have expected, but it
>> certainly leads me to doubt Andy's prediction.
>
> To repeat -- follow the money. Many players are turning their
>backs on "long" cricket. Today, it's mostly experienced players who
>are thereby extending their careers. But "The Secret Cricketer" points
>out that if the choice is to spend April in England bowling for a large
>part of four days in cold damp weather or in a sunny clime in front of
>a large crowd bowling four overs per match for more money, it's a no-
>brainer.

How many is "many"? If there were double the number of opportunities
to play franchise cricket outside England during the season as
currently exist, that would provide openings for about 6-7% of current
English county professionals. The choice that the Secret Cricketer
refers to may be a no-brainer (presumably indicating that Saqib
Mahmood has no brains because he listened to Ben Stokes's advice about
his chances of progressing to the Test team), but it was only
available to about 10-12 players. And some of those will play very
little cricket because there are five better overseas players in their
squad and you can only field four.

It used to be just international cricket which provided lucrative
employment for the elite. The advent of franchise cricket means that
the next stratum down gets to make pots of money too. But the majority
of players don't get to play franchise cricket at home, let alone get
offered gigs abroad.

That the BCCI control a bunch of stadia where spectator conditions
resemble prison camps and people don't want to languish in uncovered
heat without water for days on end means that Test cricket in India is
poorly-attended. Which is brilliant news for the telecom companies who
can make huge amounts as people stream the Tests to their homes,
gardens, cafes and the like. While the Indian public remains excited
to see their IPL heroes strutting their stuff in red-ball cricket, the
red ball game remains viable. Once that goes, so does the red ball
game, though even then it may take some time to breathe its last.

Which I suspect means that it's going to outlive both of us, even if
not by centuries.

10 years ago, I'd have completely agreed about red and white ball
players becoming virtually distinct tribes in the nearly-foreseeable
future. But the new generation of players who have grown up in the
multi-format environment have adapted, and a large number, including
nearly all the best ones, can turn their hand to any length of game
with reasonably similar success levels.

Something similar is happening in bike racing, where the new
professionals are doing things no-one would have believed possible 20
years ago. Winning one of the 6 big one-day races or winning a grand
tour would be the highlight of any rider's career, and winning one of
each would be incredible because one-day racing is nothing like
21-stage racing. Yet at the age of 22, Tadej Pogacar has already won 2
Tours and 3 monuments. The current Olympic mountain biking champion
Tom Pidcock is also the world cyclo-cross champion, has won several
road races and is very likely to win a grand tour, possibly The Tour,
at some point, a level of versatility undreamed of even 10 years ago.

So while I share a lot of your doubts about the future viability of
the red-ball game financially, I no longer think that Nikolai
Ivanovich Lobachevsky would offer a young cricketer the advice to
"Specialize" (with apologies to Mr Lehrer). If the format's there, the
best players will want to play it, and there's no reason why they
can't play all three if they feel like it and are good enough, which
the modern player is because of his upbringing, just as a 1950s player
was restricted to one format because that's what he'd grown up with.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Tue, 3 May 2022 02:00 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 8:18:57 AM UTC+10, Andy Walker wrote:
> I just don't see how the CC, however "interesting" it may be
> to us purists, is viable long term.

Is it even viable now? Surely CC, and most if not all, other FC systems are only viable thanks to cricket board subsidies (thanks to national level cricket).

Even the best FC cricket isn't interesting to most fans. Each match is ~4 days of almost meaningless cricket.
Sheffield Shield games are basically free (well, they were last time I checked). Still very few people attend. And the quality of the cricket is high.
FC cricket only serves one real purpose - to provide Test players.

If the question was "how can we get more people to watch FC cricket?" I really have no answer. I think it's basically impossible.

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 06:40:38 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Tue, 3 May 2022 05:40 UTC

On Tue, 03 May 2022 02:49:00 +0100, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

[and yes, I have a nerve impingement which keeps me up all night
sometimes]

>Which I suspect means that it's going to outlive both of us, even if
>not by centuries.

I'm reminded of the demise of the mainframe computer. In 2002, a
manager advised me to get on with training up on Unix because the
company would be switching off the mainframe in 2007. A few weeks
before I retired in 2020, I was required to sit through a presentstion
on the future strategy, in which the date for switching off the
mainframe had been changed from 2028 to 2032. So they'll only deliver
on what was "inevitable" some 25 years late despite having been
hell-bent on it.

Some of the obstacles which they encountered were quite bizarre: there
turned out to be vital linkages between applications which nobody
realised existed because they'd been working fine for 30 years already
and everyone had forgotten about it.

I absolutely agree that f-c cricket makes no financial sense on its
own, and only functions to supply players for Test cricket, and that a
lot of countries have difficulty getting anyone into grounds to watch
Tests and that sponsors and broadcasters don't like empty grounds and
won't pay as much and that it's frighteningly expensive to stage in
the first place, and that it's hard to see how Test cricket has a long
term future. All of that is true.

However, it is how the game became established in most of the
Test-playing countries and the entire eco-system was based around it.
Radically changing the structure while maintaining a globally
continuous service can take a lot longer than you think.

Recently, there have been more former players getting appointed to
posts that in the 00s would have gone to a fresh pair of eyes from the
marketing community. Even the commercially-minded board members around
the world are reluctant to pull the plug on the red ball game, let
alone the playing community. Trying to drive structural change through
when their hearts aren't in it is not going to accelerate progress.

It seems to me that some of your darker predictions assume that
franchise cricket will continue to grow seemingly exponentially. I
think the rate of growth is already slowing and will get even slower.
Of the major countries which don't yet have one, I doubt Ireland or
Zimbabwe could support one and obviously Afghanistan won't be able to
for decades if ever. MLC is starting up in the US, but they have a
commercial imperative to get loads of US players into it asap because
the American sport-watching public isn't going to take any interest in
a lot of brown people who are a) from abroad and b) all Muslims (well,
maybe not but them Hindus are just the same, ain't they?). So the
expansion of opportunity for foreign players isn't going to be vast in
terms of numbers. And that too will be two months max for a generation
at least. What sort of room is there for two in one "season" in any
given territory? England are trying it with the Blast and 100, and it
remains to be seen how that goes, but I'm not sure that anyone's going
to be entirely happy with the result.

There will be less f-c cricket, at least in England. Evolution may
well in time make it extinct. But I think there is still sufficient
interest and overall benefit for it to be possible to maintain a
viable population for a fairly long time to come, and that change will
take longer than I get the impression you think.

I'd actually be more worried about the future of the 50-over format.
It's not sufficiently different from T20 and a lot more games are
boring. Test cricket is very different and it may be possible to
preserve it as a niche part of the game as happens in some other
multi-format sports. Or it may not: I'm just confident I won't be
around to find out.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

<t4rtnv$1rs0$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: anw...@cuboid.co.uk (Andy Walker)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 19:53:51 +0100
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 by: Andy Walker - Tue, 3 May 2022 18:53 UTC

On 03/05/2022 02:49, Mike Holmans wrote:
> [,,,[ If there were double the number of opportunities
> to play franchise cricket outside England during the season as
> currently exist, that would provide openings for about 6-7% of current
> English county professionals.

Yes, but it's not just franchise cricket. It's any experienced
player who CBA to play relatively meaningless 4-day matches, esp in April,
and who decides that playing only T20/100/listA gives him enough decent
pay-days. Yes, for as long as there is a CC feeding into the Test side,
there will be Test wannabees and youngsters enough to fill out a county
side, but those county sides will seem increasingly irrelevant from the
pro PoV. Just a trend, not a forecast that CC/Tests will stop next year.
But a trend that is bound to feed back into the way that CC/Tests are
perceived by supporters and sponsors.

[...]
> Which I suspect means that it's going to outlive both of us, even if
> not by centuries.

Very likely. OK, quite likely. But things could change very
quickly in the light of county finances.

> 10 years ago, I'd have completely agreed about red and white ball
> players becoming virtually distinct tribes in the nearly-foreseeable
> future. But the new generation of players who have grown up in the
> multi-format environment have adapted, and a large number, including
> nearly all the best ones, can turn their hand to any length of game
> with reasonably similar success levels.

Yes, /can/; but will they /want/ to? I don't know. Will they
/always/ want to?

> So while I share a lot of your doubts about the future viability of
> the red-ball game financially, I no longer think that Nikolai
> Ivanovich Lobachevsky would offer a young cricketer the advice to
> "Specialize" (with apologies to Mr Lehrer).

I didn't have you marked down as a TAL fan! Is he not before
your time?

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Boccherini

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

<ojv27hh1v2is0dkaq3ep5q99usnimligha@4ax.com>

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 22:12:29 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Tue, 3 May 2022 21:12 UTC

On Tue, 3 May 2022 19:53:51 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

> I didn't have you marked down as a TAL fan! Is he not before
>your time?

I was sitting in a coffee shop yesterday, and a young lad was wearing
a Pink Floyd t-shirt. I mentioned that I'd seen them live on that
particular tour in 1973, and he said it was 25 years before he was
born. Quality stuff lasts past the year it was made.

I first heard the Hunting Song when I was about 7 and was instantly
enchanted. There's a very nice b&w 50-minute show from 1967 on YouTube
if you search "Tom Lehrer Copenhagen", which I enjoyed a great deal a
coupla months ago.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 23:08:52 +0100
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 by: max.it - Tue, 3 May 2022 22:08 UTC

On Tue, 03 May 2022 22:12:29 +0100, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

>On Tue, 3 May 2022 19:53:51 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>
>> I didn't have you marked down as a TAL fan! Is he not before
>>your time?
>
>I was sitting in a coffee shop yesterday, and a young lad was wearing
>a Pink Floyd t-shirt. I mentioned that I'd seen them live on that
>particular tour in 1973, and he said it was 25 years before he was
>born. Quality stuff lasts past the year it was made.
>
>I first heard the Hunting Song when I was about 7 and was instantly
>enchanted. There's a very nice b&w 50-minute show from 1967 on YouTube
>if you search "Tom Lehrer Copenhagen", which I enjoyed a great deal a
>coupla months ago.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike

I'm more of a Flanders and Swan person.

max.it

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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From: anw...@cuboid.co.uk (Andy Walker)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 00:13:20 +0100
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 by: Andy Walker - Tue, 3 May 2022 23:13 UTC

On 03/05/2022 22:12, Mike Holmans wrote:
> I first heard the Hunting Song when I was about 7 and was instantly
> enchanted.

Our next-door neighbour [a Lancs 2nd XI cricketer, to give some
relationship to what this group is /supposed/ to be about] had the first
record, and played it to us [before TAL was well known]; I was about 12.
"I Hold Your Hand In Mine" was an instant hit for me and dad; mum was
less impressed. I have essentially everything he did, inc the piano
music ["with Ronald Searle"]; now it's PD, I may add some to my music
pages.

I find that mathematicians split in roughly equal proportions
between "Yes, love it", "Who? ... [later] ... wow, that's great" and
"Who? ... [later] ... what a load of *&%*".

> There's a very nice b&w 50-minute show from 1967 on YouTube
> if you search "Tom Lehrer Copenhagen", which I enjoyed a great deal a
> coupla months ago.

Yes, YouTube has a lot of his material. He's lasted [IMO]
much better than max.it's Flanders and Swann or Hoffnung.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Boccherini

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 by: jack fredricks - Tue, 3 May 2022 23:18 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:12:32 AM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> I mentioned that I'd seen them live on that
> particular tour in 1973

As someone born after this (not long, mind you), I am very jealous.

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
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 by: Mike Holmans - Wed, 4 May 2022 00:24 UTC

On Wed, 4 May 2022 00:13:20 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

> Yes, YouTube has a lot of his material. He's lasted [IMO]
>much better than max.it's Flanders and Swann or Hoffnung.

A lot of his stuff is unfortunately still relevant, unlike the others.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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 by: Hamish Laws - Wed, 4 May 2022 01:58 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:12:32 AM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 19:53:51 +0100, Andy Walker <a...@cuboid.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > I didn't have you marked down as a TAL fan! Is he not before
> >your time?
> I was sitting in a coffee shop yesterday, and a young lad was wearing
> a Pink Floyd t-shirt. I mentioned that I'd seen them live on that
> particular tour in 1973, and he said it was 25 years before he was
> born. Quality stuff lasts past the year it was made.
>
My parents got Lenrer's records when they were in the USA doing their PhDs and then lecturing. I got exposed to them when I was at Uni when dad went back to get another degree (iirc he had a Bachelor of Divity, B.A. BSc in life sciences with Masters and a PhD & a Medical degree at that point but wanted to do physics and maths) and he played them for one of the staff members

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

<0vQi46A7SkciFwWy@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>

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From: john_nos...@jhall.co.uk (John Hall)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 10:17:47 +0100
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 by: John Hall - Wed, 4 May 2022 09:17 UTC

In message <t4scug$1sro$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Walker
<anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes
>On 03/05/2022 22:12, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> I first heard the Hunting Song when I was about 7 and was instantly
>> enchanted.

I didn't discover him until the 1980s, when a friend played me an LP of
his.

>
> Our next-door neighbour [a Lancs 2nd XI cricketer, to give some
>relationship to what this group is /supposed/ to be about] had the first
>record, and played it to us [before TAL was well known]; I was about 12.
>"I Hold Your Hand In Mine" was an instant hit for me and dad; mum was
>less impressed. I have essentially everything he did, inc the piano
>music ["with Ronald Searle"]; now it's PD, I may add some to my music
>pages.
>
> I find that mathematicians split in roughly equal proportions
>between "Yes, love it", "Who? ... [later] ... wow, that's great" and
>"Who? ... [later] ... what a load of *&%*".

IIRC, Lehrer's day job was as a mathematics lecturer - though that
didn't stop him from being rather unfair to Lobachevsky, if I recall
correctly what I read about Lob on Wikipedia (though it's one of my
favourite songs of Lehrer's).

>
>> There's a very nice b&w 50-minute show from 1967 on YouTube
>> if you search "Tom Lehrer Copenhagen", which I enjoyed a great deal a
>> coupla months ago.

For such a brilliant performer, it's strange that apparently he didn't
enjoy being on stage.

>
> Yes, YouTube has a lot of his material. He's lasted [IMO]
>much better than max.it's Flanders and Swann or Hoffnung.
>

I like them all, though I'd probably rank Lehrer first. Even though
Hoffnung didn't originate the Irish bricklayer story, his telling of it
is a masterpiece of comic timing.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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From: stevehag...@gmail.com (steve hague)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 11:29:02 +0100
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 by: steve hague - Wed, 4 May 2022 10:29 UTC

On 03/05/2022 22:12, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 19:53:51 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>> I didn't have you marked down as a TAL fan! Is he not before
>> your time?
>
> I was sitting in a coffee shop yesterday, and a young lad was wearing
> a Pink Floyd t-shirt. I mentioned that I'd seen them live on that
> particular tour in 1973, and he said it was 25 years before he was
> born. Quality stuff lasts past the year it was made.
>
> I first heard the Hunting Song when I was about 7 and was instantly
> enchanted. There's a very nice b&w 50-minute show from 1967 on YouTube
> if you search "Tom Lehrer Copenhagen", which I enjoyed a great deal a
> coupla months ago.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike

It was "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park" which did it for me, many years
ago. Many, many years ago. We have a couple of CDs, which I should
listen to again. The British equivalent would be Jake Thackray, a gifted
musician and a very funny man.
Steve Hague

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Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Wed, 4 May 2022 11:40 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 11:08:57 PM UTC+1, max.it wrote:
> On Tue, 03 May 2022 22:12:29 +0100, Mike Holmans <sp...@jackalope.uk>
> wrote:
> >On Tue, 3 May 2022 19:53:51 +0100, Andy Walker <a...@cuboid.co.uk>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I didn't have you marked down as a TAL fan! Is he not before
> >>your time?
> >
> >I was sitting in a coffee shop yesterday, and a young lad was wearing
> >a Pink Floyd t-shirt. I mentioned that I'd seen them live on that
> >particular tour in 1973, and he said it was 25 years before he was
> >born. Quality stuff lasts past the year it was made.
> >
> >I first heard the Hunting Song when I was about 7 and was instantly
> >enchanted. There's a very nice b&w 50-minute show from 1967 on YouTube
> >if you search "Tom Lehrer Copenhagen", which I enjoyed a great deal a
> >coupla months ago.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Mike
> I'm more of a Flanders and Swan person.
> max.it
>

"The English are best
The English are best
We don't care about the rest"

RH

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 12:41:25 +0100
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 by: max.it - Wed, 4 May 2022 11:41 UTC

On Wed, 4 May 2022 11:29:02 +0100, steve hague
<stevehague82@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 03/05/2022 22:12, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 19:53:51 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I didn't have you marked down as a TAL fan! Is he not before
>>> your time?
>>
>> I was sitting in a coffee shop yesterday, and a young lad was wearing
>> a Pink Floyd t-shirt. I mentioned that I'd seen them live on that
>> particular tour in 1973, and he said it was 25 years before he was
>> born. Quality stuff lasts past the year it was made.
>>
>> I first heard the Hunting Song when I was about 7 and was instantly
>> enchanted. There's a very nice b&w 50-minute show from 1967 on YouTube
>> if you search "Tom Lehrer Copenhagen", which I enjoyed a great deal a
>> coupla months ago.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Mike
>
>It was "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park" which did it for me, many years
>ago. Many, many years ago. We have a couple of CDs, which I should
>listen to again. The British equivalent would be Jake Thackray, a gifted
>musician and a very funny man.
>Steve Hague

Thomas Benjamin Wild Esq. recorded poisoning pigeons in the park on a
ukulele.
He's better known for singing 'no more fucks to give' surrounded by
tweed suits in a gents outfitters shop.

max.it

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Thu, 05 May 2022 03:14:16 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Thu, 5 May 2022 02:14 UTC

On Tue, 3 May 2022 19:53:51 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>> 10 years ago, I'd have completely agreed about red and white ball
>> players becoming virtually distinct tribes in the nearly-foreseeable
>> future. But the new generation of players who have grown up in the
>> multi-format environment have adapted, and a large number, including
>> nearly all the best ones, can turn their hand to any length of game
>> with reasonably similar success levels.
>
> Yes, /can/; but will they /want/ to? I don't know. Will they
>/always/ want to?

I don't know either.

One factor will be whether the players continue to consider 5-day
cricket to be the ultimate form of the game, and pay more respect to
achievements in that arena than in others.

I know I bang on about bike racing, but it's another multi-format
sport whose finances are extremely precarious. Races have varying
statuses, depending on the strength of the field and the
classification of the race. You sometimes get experienced riders
who've won a couple of dozen minor races breaking down in tears if
they win a stage of the Tour de France because it's the most
prestigious thing they've ever done or may ever do. (It does enhance
his position in future contract negotiations, true, but that's not
what causes men to blubber for 20 minutes.)

Chris Gayle has spent most of his stellar T20 career with the number
333 on his back: it's his highest Test score, and he's not letting
anyone forget it.

Liam Livingstone is one of the hottest white-ball players in the
world, but he makes no secret that he'd rather be playing Test
cricket.

Saqib Mahmood had the option of an IPL contract but decided not to
take it up because Ben Stokes told him he had a better chance of
getting in the Test team by playing for Lancs in April.

10-15 years ago it was thought that the skillsets would inevitably
diverge. Then leg-spinner Shane Warne captained the Rajasthan Royals
to victory in the first edition of the IPL and was a major contributor
with the ball. That proved that so-called Test specialists could be
major white-ball players if they were good enough - being highly
skilled at cricket means you can change your method to suit the game
situation, whatever that situation my be. As a result, it has become
apparent that pursuing red-ball success does not block off access to
white-ball money.

For the kind of person who makes it to the top in sport, professional
achievement is regularly of immense importance to them. Everyone mocks
Boycs for his encyclopedic knowledge of his statistics, but Darren
Gough had a list of England's Test bowlers and how many wickets they'd
taken in his kitbag and always knew whose record was the next he would
match. And we already know that Ian Botham regards his tally of Test
wickets as irrefutable evidence that he knows more about the names of
Italian cheeses than Italian waiters do.

In 2022, Test success is an ambition which still grips cricketers and
affects their career decisions. Players who've experienced all formats
agree that the 5-day format is the hardest and that proving oneself in
that format gives one bragging rights that T20 never can.

Of course some players are going to spend their careers trying to
maximise their income. But the best players will want to maximise
their achievements while making a pretty good living.

I don't think that there will ever be any shortage of players who
/want/ to play all the formats they can. Playing professional sport is
not like trading commodity futures or selling furniture. It isn't
/all/ about the money.

No, of course there is no guarantee of anything. I don't know, neither
do you, nor does anyone else. But there is considerable inertia in the
game's culture which will take a lot of force to overcome. Those in
authority who talk about the difficulties show no enthusiasm about
changing the culture. They may well be gloomy about how to sustain red
ball cricket, but they obviously want to.

That we can't see how it can be done does not mean that it cannot.

I'd point out, for instance, that the old line about free-to-air TV
never covering it has now been invalidated. Every CC match can be
streamed for free, and you have to be an old git to think that
broadcast linear TV is the only content delivery system people use.
And the ECB intend to effectively install DRS everywhere, which
requires more cameras and spins off to coverage superior to that
available now. What happens if T20 is only available on subscription
and f-c cricket remains free-to-view, for instance? And who knows what
other forms of access may become available?

My point is that there is no /need/ to regard white-ball and red-ball
cricket as increasingly disjoint and in my view it would be harmful to
behave as though the demise of red ball cricket is inevitable, even if
it may need radical restructuring.

No, I'm not unconcerned or complacent. Nor am I wildly optimistic. But
nor do I think we have reached the tipping point from which there is
no return.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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From: anw...@cuboid.co.uk (Andy Walker)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 00:24:24 +0100
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 by: Andy Walker - Fri, 6 May 2022 23:24 UTC

On 05/05/2022 03:14, Mike Holmans wrote:
>>> [...] But the new generation of players who have grown up in the
>>> multi-format environment have adapted, and a large number, including
>>> nearly all the best ones, can turn their hand to any length of game
>>> with reasonably similar success levels.
>> Yes, /can/; but will they /want/ to? I don't know. Will they
>> /always/ want to?
> I don't know either.

Yes, well, that's the usual problem, that predicting the future
is a lot harder than predicting the past.

> One factor will be whether the players continue to consider 5-day
> cricket to be the ultimate form of the game, and pay more respect to
> achievements in that arena than in others.

Yes, but it's not just the players; the clubs have to see a
decent return too.

[...]
> Chris Gayle ... Liam Livingstone ... Saqib Mahmood ... Ben Stokes
> ... Shane Warne ... Boycs ... Ian Botham [...].
> In 2022, Test success is an ambition which still grips cricketers and
> affects their career decisions. Players who've experienced all formats
> agree that the 5-day format is the hardest and that proving oneself in
> that format gives one bragging rights that T20 never can.

Sure. Spot the common feature of all the players you mentioned
in your article. But there is one England Test team, compared with 18
f-c counties; the great majority of new f-c players in the UK have no
realistic chance of reaching the Test side. Their bragging rights come
from "I played for Loamshire". Up to the present, most of us take their
f-c averages as more interesting than their T20 records, but I suspect
that is in the process of changing.

[...]
> I don't think that there will ever be any shortage of players who
> /want/ to play all the formats they can.

Yes, but will the counties want to pay professional salaries to
players to play the 4-day game [at a substantial loss]? Follow-up Q:
will the ECB want to pay to maintain 18 f-c counties in order to find
one Test squad [and, eg, a Lions squad]? ...

[...]
> My point is that there is no /need/ to regard white-ball and red-ball
> cricket as increasingly disjoint and in my view it would be harmful to
> behave as though the demise of red ball cricket is inevitable, even if
> it may need radical restructuring.

... ISTM that the restructuring inevitably means the demise of
most 4-day county cricket. It doesn't help that the Test squad has
less and less in common with county squads, taking the season as a
whole. I don't know what can be rescued. Perhaps some trial matches?
Your guess is as good as mine. But it has to be financially viable as
a package.

> No, I'm not unconcerned or complacent. Nor am I wildly optimistic. But
> nor do I think we have reached the tipping point from which there is
> no return.

Yes, but return to what? Ideas welcome! But they need to be
rooted in reality, not a rose-spectacled view of the 1950s, or even
the 1990s.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Favarger

Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Stokes is captain and wants sAnderson and Broad in the side
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 02:04:28 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Sat, 7 May 2022 01:04 UTC

On Sat, 7 May 2022 00:24:24 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

> Yes, but return to what? Ideas welcome! But they need to be
>rooted in reality, not a rose-spectacled view of the 1950s, or even
>the 1990s.

Que sera, sera.

I've enjoyed the discussion. I've at least convinced myself that I
don't have to prepare for the imminent demise of f-c cricket even
though the village idiot will no doubt respond to the ECB's draft
proposals when they emerge with 4,000 words on how foreigners have
ruined English cricket and the complete fall of civilisation is less
than a decade away. I'm expecting to think that it seems pretty
drastic but maybe it's better this way than to spend the next 20 years
gradually removing blocks from the structure and hoping not to cause a
Jenga-style collapse.

Cheers,

Mike

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