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aus+uk / uk.sport.cricket / Lost two hundreds

SubjectAuthor
* Lost two hundredsmax.it
+* Re: Lost two hundredsAndy Walker
|+- Re: Lost two hundredsmax.it
|`* Re: Lost two hundredsRH
| +* Re: Lost two hundredsJohn Hall
| |+- Re: Lost two hundredsRH
| |`- Re: Lost two hundredsRH
| `* Re: Lost two hundredsDavid North
|  +- Re: Lost two hundredsMike Holmans
|  `- Re: Lost two hundredsRH
`- Re: Lost two hundredsRH

1
Lost two hundreds

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From: max...@tea.time (max.it)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Lost two hundreds
Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 17:59:39 +0100
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 by: max.it - Tue, 3 May 2022 16:59 UTC

WG Grace has lost two hundreds from his stats.
685 runs, 67 wickets and two centuries wiped from the records books.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61308258

max.it

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Re: Lost two hundreds

<t4rrir$ptd$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: anw...@cuboid.co.uk (Andy Walker)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Lost two hundreds
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 19:16:59 +0100
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 by: Andy Walker - Tue, 3 May 2022 18:16 UTC

On 03/05/2022 17:59, max.it wrote:
>
> WG Grace has lost two hundreds from his stats.
> 685 runs, 67 wickets and two centuries wiped from the records books.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61308258

Linked from that page is the incident where Aggers managed to
convince Boycs, to his annoyance, that one of /his/ centuries would no
longer count as f-c.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Boccherini

Re: Lost two hundreds

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From: max...@tea.time (max.it)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Lost two hundreds
Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 19:54:33 +0100
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 by: max.it - Tue, 3 May 2022 18:54 UTC

On Tue, 3 May 2022 19:16:59 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 03/05/2022 17:59, max.it wrote:
>>
>> WG Grace has lost two hundreds from his stats.
>> 685 runs, 67 wickets and two centuries wiped from the records books.
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61308258
>
> Linked from that page is the incident where Aggers managed to
>convince Boycs, to his annoyance, that one of /his/ centuries would no
>longer count as f-c.

Cruel but funny.

max.it

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Re: Lost two hundreds

<3f9f1c34-09ea-4c1a-8db4-6397e441631cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Lost two hundreds
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Wed, 4 May 2022 06:41 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 5:59:47 PM UTC+1, max.it wrote:
> WG Grace has lost two hundreds from his stats.
> 685 runs, 67 wickets and two centuries wiped from the records books.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61308258
>
> max.it
>
> --
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The wrangling over WG's stats has been going on since the 1890s. RH

Re: Lost two hundreds

<f4841c33-ed86-47cd-9259-cf35e30e8887n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Lost two hundreds
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Wed, 4 May 2022 07:37 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:17:01 PM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 03/05/2022 17:59, max.it wrote:
> >
> > WG Grace has lost two hundreds from his stats.
> > 685 runs, 67 wickets and two centuries wiped from the records books.
> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61308258
> Linked from that page is the incident where Aggers managed to
> convince Boycs, to his annoyance, that one of /his/ centuries would no
> longer count as f-c.
>
> --
> Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Boccherini

The problem with Grace's stats are the number of iffy amateur "pickup" games and games with more than 11 a side. Nonetheless even if those are subtracted his stats remain colossal. His best period was in the 1870s in which he averaged 54 with the bat (at a time when 25 was considered a decent average) and was one of the leading bowlers taking more than a 1,000 wickets in the decade at low cost.

Grace's Test record looks mediocre at first glance but again is very good when put into context. He average over r 30 in Tests despite playing from 1880 (when he was 32) and 1899 when he was 51. At that point he had the best average for for any English Test batsman (ave 32) scoring 1,00 Test runs bar Shrewsbury.

RH

Re: Lost two hundreds

<pvHlIfBnWkciFwVq@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>

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From: john_nos...@jhall.co.uk (John Hall)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: Lost two hundreds
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 10:21:43 +0100
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 by: John Hall - Wed, 4 May 2022 09:21 UTC

In message <f4841c33-ed86-47cd-9259-cf35e30e8887n@googlegroups.com>, RH
<anywhere156@gmail.com> writes
>On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:17:01 PM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
>> On 03/05/2022 17:59, max.it wrote:
>> >
>> > WG Grace has lost two hundreds from his stats.
>> > 685 runs, 67 wickets and two centuries wiped from the records books.
>> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61308258
>> Linked from that page is the incident where Aggers managed to
>> convince Boycs, to his annoyance, that one of /his/ centuries would no
>> longer count as f-c.
>>
>> --
>> Andy Walker, Nottingham.
>> Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
>> Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Boccherini
>
>The problem with Grace's stats are the number of iffy amateur
>"pickup" games and games with more than 11 a side. Nonetheless even
>if those are subtracted his stats remain colossal. His best period was
>in the 1870s in which he averaged 54 with the bat (at a time when 25
>was considered a decent average) and was one of the leading bowlers
>taking more than a 1,000 wickets in the decade at low cost.
>
>Grace's Test record looks mediocre at first glance but again is very
>good when put into context. He average over r 30 in Tests despite
>playing from 1880 (when he was 32) and 1899 when he was 51. At that
>point he had the best average for for any English Test batsman (ave
>32) scoring 1,00 Test runs bar Shrewsbury.

His Test record would probably have been even better if Test cricket had
started earlier than it did since, as you point out, his greatest period
was the 1870s (and the second half of the 1860s wasn't too shabby
either).
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

Re: Lost two hundreds

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Subject: Re: Lost two hundreds
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Wed, 4 May 2022 09:33 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 10:32:16 AM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
> In message <f4841c33-ed86-47cd...@googlegroups.com>, RH
> <anywh...@gmail.com> writes
> >On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:17:01 PM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> >> On 03/05/2022 17:59, max.it wrote:
> >> >
> >> > WG Grace has lost two hundreds from his stats.
> >> > 685 runs, 67 wickets and two centuries wiped from the records books.
> >> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61308258
> >> Linked from that page is the incident where Aggers managed to
> >> convince Boycs, to his annoyance, that one of /his/ centuries would no
> >> longer count as f-c.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> >> Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> >> Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Boccherini
> >
> >The problem with Grace's stats are the number of iffy amateur
> >"pickup" games and games with more than 11 a side. Nonetheless even
> >if those are subtracted his stats remain colossal. His best period was
> >in the 1870s in which he averaged 54 with the bat (at a time when 25
> >was considered a decent average) and was one of the leading bowlers
> >taking more than a 1,000 wickets in the decade at low cost.
> >
> >Grace's Test record looks mediocre at first glance but again is very
> >good when put into context. He average over r 30 in Tests despite
> >playing from 1880 (when he was 32) and 1899 when he was 51. At that
> >point he had the best average for for any English Test batsman (ave
> >32) scoring 1,00 Test runs bar Shrewsbury.
> His Test record would probably have been even better if Test cricket had
> started earlier than it did since, as you point out, his greatest period
> was the 1870s (and the second half of the 1860s wasn't too shabby
> either).
> --
> John Hall
> "Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
> But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
> Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

Re: Lost two hundreds

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Subject: Re: Lost two hundreds
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Wed, 4 May 2022 09:46 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 10:32:16 AM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
> In message <f4841c33-ed86-47cd...@googlegroups.com>, RH
> <anywh...@gmail.com> writes
> >On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:17:01 PM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> >> On 03/05/2022 17:59, max.it wrote:
> >> >
> >> > WG Grace has lost two hundreds from his stats.
> >> > 685 runs, 67 wickets and two centuries wiped from the records books.
> >> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61308258
> >> Linked from that page is the incident where Aggers managed to
> >> convince Boycs, to his annoyance, that one of /his/ centuries would no
> >> longer count as f-c.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> >> Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> >> Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Boccherini
> >
> >The problem with Grace's stats are the number of iffy amateur
> >"pickup" games and games with more than 11 a side. Nonetheless even
> >if those are subtracted his stats remain colossal. His best period was
> >in the 1870s in which he averaged 54 with the bat (at a time when 25
> >was considered a decent average) and was one of the leading bowlers
> >taking more than a 1,000 wickets in the decade at low cost.
> >
> >Grace's Test record looks mediocre at first glance but again is very
> >good when put into context. He average over r 30 in Tests despite
> >playing from 1880 (when he was 32) and 1899 when he was 51. At that
> >point he had the best average for for any English Test batsman (ave
> >32) scoring 1,00 Test runs bar Shrewsbury.
> His Test record would probably have been even better if Test cricket had
> started earlier than it did since, as you point out, his greatest period
> was the 1870s (and the second half of the 1860s wasn't too shabby
> either).
> --
> John Hall

Absolutely. Grace played most of his Tests when he was past 40 - only 8 before 1888 were before the age of 40. He also played almost all his Tests on uncovered pitches with most of the games played before the advent of pitches in the 1890s which w2ere on a par with those of the modern era in the 1890s.

In the 1870s Grace came the closest to Bradman in terms of having a batting average double that of anyone else.

His bowling was seriously under-used in Tests. - he started off bowling round arm medium pace them switch ed to leg breaks. RH

Re: Lost two hundreds

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Subject: Re: Lost two hundreds
From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
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 by: David North - Wed, 4 May 2022 12:45 UTC

On Wednesday, 4 May 2022 at 08:37:55 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:17:01 PM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> > On 03/05/2022 17:59, max.it wrote:
> > >
> > > WG Grace has lost two hundreds from his stats.
> > > 685 runs, 67 wickets and two centuries wiped from the records books.
> > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61308258
> > Linked from that page is the incident where Aggers managed to
> > convince Boycs, to his annoyance, that one of /his/ centuries would no
> > longer count as f-c.
> >
> > --
> > Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> > Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> > Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Boccherini
> The problem with Grace's stats are the number of iffy amateur "pickup" games and games with more than 11 a side. Nonetheless even if those are subtracted his stats remain colossal. His best period was in the 1870s in which he averaged 54 with the bat (at a time when 25 was considered a decent average) and was one of the leading bowlers taking more than a 1,000 wickets in the decade at low cost.
>
> Grace's Test record looks mediocre at first glance but again is very good when put into context. He average over r 30 in Tests despite playing from 1880 (when he was 32) and 1899 when he was 51. At that point he had the best average for for any English Test batsman (ave 32) scoring 1,00 Test runs bar Shrewsbury.

Yes, but at that point (1899), "English Test batsmen scoring 1,000 Test runs bar Shrewsbury" was a list of one. If you made the criterion 20+ Tests, there would at least be a few players below him - Ulyett, Billy Barnes, Briggs and Peel - albeit the last two were primarily bowlers.

Re: Lost two hundreds

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
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Subject: Re: Lost two hundreds
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 by: Mike Holmans - Wed, 4 May 2022 16:22 UTC

On Wed, 4 May 2022 05:45:31 -0700 (PDT), David North
<nospam@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wednesday, 4 May 2022 at 08:37:55 UTC+1, RH wrote:

>> Grace's Test record looks mediocre at first glance but again is very good when put into context. He average over r 30 in Tests despite playing from 1880 (when he was 32) and 1899 when he was 51. At that point he had the best average for for any English Test batsman (ave 32) scoring 1,00 Test runs bar Shrewsbury.
>
>Yes, but at that point (1899), "English Test batsmen scoring 1,000 Test runs bar Shrewsbury" was a list of one.

So a more accurate formulation would be "the worst average for any
English Test batsman scoring 1000 runs, bar none," which sounds a bit
less impressive.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: Lost two hundreds

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Subject: Re: Lost two hundreds
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 by: RH - Wed, 4 May 2022 18:56 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 1:45:32 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On Wednesday, 4 May 2022 at 08:37:55 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:17:01 PM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> > > On 03/05/2022 17:59, max.it wrote:
> > > >
> > > > WG Grace has lost two hundreds from his stats.
> > > > 685 runs, 67 wickets and two centuries wiped from the records books..
> > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61308258
> > > Linked from that page is the incident where Aggers managed to
> > > convince Boycs, to his annoyance, that one of /his/ centuries would no
> > > longer count as f-c.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> > > Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> > > Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Boccherini
> > The problem with Grace's stats are the number of iffy amateur "pickup" games and games with more than 11 a side. Nonetheless even if those are subtracted his stats remain colossal. His best period was in the 1870s in which he averaged 54 with the bat (at a time when 25 was considered a decent average) and was one of the leading bowlers taking more than a 1,000 wickets in the decade at low cost.
> >
> > Grace's Test record looks mediocre at first glance but again is very good when put into context. He average over r 30 in Tests despite playing from 1880 (when he was 32) and 1899 when he was 51. At that point he had the best average for for any English Test batsman (ave 32) scoring 1,00 Test runs bar Shrewsbury.
> Yes, but at that point (1899), "English Test batsmen scoring 1,000 Test runs bar Shrewsbury" was a list of one. If you made the criterion 20+ Tests, there would at least be a few players below him - Ulyett, Billy Barnes, Briggs and Peel - albeit the last two were primarily bowlers.

The fact that Grace was one of only two English batsmen to have scored 1,000 Test runs by 1899 is highly impressive in itself and doubly so in view of the period Grace played in and the age he was (40+) when playing most of the Tests. Moreover, all but 3 of his Test were in England on uncovered pitches. ,

RH

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