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aus+uk / uk.sport.cricket / Re: So, 12 counties

SubjectAuthor
* So, 12 countiesMike Holmans
+- Re: So, 12 countiesRH
+* Re: So, 12 countiesmax.it
|`* Re: So, 12 countiesmike
| +* Re: So, 12 countiesAndy Walker
| |+* Re: So, 12 countiesmike
| ||`- Re: So, 12 countiesJohn Hall
| |+- Re: So, 12 countiesRH
| |`- Re: So, 12 countiesRH
| `- Re: So, 12 countiesMike Holmans
`* Re: So, 12 countiesjack fredricks
 `- Re: So, 12 countiesjack fredricks

1
So, 12 counties

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: So, 12 counties
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 18:35:12 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Mon, 9 May 2022 17:35 UTC

It's pretty obvious from the various leaks in the press that the ECB's
central proposal for the reform of English cricket and revival of the
red ball squad's fortunes will be to cut the championship to 12 teams.

Which, as I expected, seems pretty drastic but may be what the numbers
dictate. Spreading the best players from 18 teams across 12 teams is
bound to result in a higher standard. Fewer teams requiring less
subsidy is more economically manageable. An 11-match f-c season
suffices for the likes of Australia to produce decent teams, so it
ought to be enough for us. One doesn't have to like it to see that it
makes logical sense.

It obviously means axing 6 of the current 18. That's going to be quite
a raw deal for a couple of them.

Derby, Northants and Leics contribute just about nothing to the CC.
Their players tend to be other counties' rejects and they made copious
use of the Kolpak loophole to acquire ready-made players from abroad.
If they have academies, they've made no noticeable difference to the
number of highly-skilled cricketers released into the talent pool.
Their followings are small. Derby is also the pinnacle of CBA matches.
Their ground is cold, windswept and cheerless in July; in April it
amounts to a pretty stiff sentence in a magistrates' court. Losing
these three would be a pity, but they are currently a drag on the CC.

I have a vague feeling that Worcs and Glos are considerably more
useful, but I'm not sure that I can cite much evidence to back that
up. They both have attractive grounds, even though Glos only use
Cheltenham for one CC match nowadays, and that may be what's making
more more sympathetic. But when I think about it, I can't see what
good those counties really do.

Glamorgan usually inhabit the bottom third of the CC and don't have
much of a record of producing Test players, but they're in Wales and
have a ground where the E&WCB can stage matches so as to live up to
their correct name.

Durham, Yorks, Lancs, Notts, Warks, Surrey and Hants all have Test
grounds. Middx play on one, but it belongs to another club and it's
arguable the county itself is unnecessary.

So it looks to me that we'd have to lose one of Somerset, Kent, Sussex
and Essex. Any guesses?

Cheers,

Mike

Re: So, 12 counties

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Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Mon, 9 May 2022 19:00 UTC

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 6:35:15 PM UTC+1, Mike Holmans wrote:
> It's pretty obvious from the various leaks in the press that the ECB's
> central proposal for the reform of English cricket and revival of the
> red ball squad's fortunes will be to cut the championship to 12 teams.
>
> Which, as I expected, seems pretty drastic but may be what the numbers
> dictate. Spreading the best players from 18 teams across 12 teams is
> bound to result in a higher standard. Fewer teams requiring less
> subsidy is more economically manageable. An 11-match f-c season
> suffices for the likes of Australia to produce decent teams, so it
> ought to be enough for us. One doesn't have to like it to see that it
> makes logical sense.
>
> It obviously means axing 6 of the current 18. That's going to be quite
> a raw deal for a couple of them.
>
> Derby, Northants and Leics contribute just about nothing to the CC.
> Their players tend to be other counties' rejects and they made copious
> use of the Kolpak loophole to acquire ready-made players from abroad.
> If they have academies, they've made no noticeable difference to the
> number of highly-skilled cricketers released into the talent pool.
> Their followings are small. Derby is also the pinnacle of CBA matches.
> Their ground is cold, windswept and cheerless in July; in April it
> amounts to a pretty stiff sentence in a magistrates' court. Losing
> these three would be a pity, but they are currently a drag on the CC.
>
> I have a vague feeling that Worcs and Glos are considerably more
> useful, but I'm not sure that I can cite much evidence to back that
> up. They both have attractive grounds, even though Glos only use
> Cheltenham for one CC match nowadays, and that may be what's making
> more more sympathetic. But when I think about it, I can't see what
> good those counties really do.
>
> Glamorgan usually inhabit the bottom third of the CC and don't have
> much of a record of producing Test players, but they're in Wales and
> have a ground where the E&WCB can stage matches so as to live up to
> their correct name.
>
> Durham, Yorks, Lancs, Notts, Warks, Surrey and Hants all have Test
> grounds. Middx play on one, but it belongs to another club and it's
> arguable the county itself is unnecessary.
>
> So it looks to me that we'd have to lose one of Somerset, Kent, Sussex
> and Essex. Any guesses?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike

The Counties will not have it and they are the ones who count in this matter. It would be asking Turkeys to vote for XMAS . The ECB is the servant of the counties not its dictator..

RH

Re: So, 12 counties

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From: max...@tea.time (max.it)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 21:18:46 +0100
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 by: max.it - Mon, 9 May 2022 20:18 UTC

On Mon, 09 May 2022 18:35:12 +0100, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

>It's pretty obvious from the various leaks in the press that the ECB's
>central proposal for the reform of English cricket and revival of the
>red ball squad's fortunes will be to cut the championship to 12 teams.
>
>Which, as I expected, seems pretty drastic but may be what the numbers
>dictate. Spreading the best players from 18 teams across 12 teams is
>bound to result in a higher standard. Fewer teams requiring less
>subsidy is more economically manageable. An 11-match f-c season
>suffices for the likes of Australia to produce decent teams, so it
>ought to be enough for us. One doesn't have to like it to see that it
>makes logical sense.
>
>It obviously means axing 6 of the current 18. That's going to be quite
>a raw deal for a couple of them.
>
>Derby, Northants and Leics contribute just about nothing to the CC.
>Their players tend to be other counties' rejects and they made copious
>use of the Kolpak loophole to acquire ready-made players from abroad.
>If they have academies, they've made no noticeable difference to the
>number of highly-skilled cricketers released into the talent pool.
>Their followings are small. Derby is also the pinnacle of CBA matches.
>Their ground is cold, windswept and cheerless in July; in April it
>amounts to a pretty stiff sentence in a magistrates' court. Losing
>these three would be a pity, but they are currently a drag on the CC.
>
>I have a vague feeling that Worcs and Glos are considerably more
>useful, but I'm not sure that I can cite much evidence to back that
>up. They both have attractive grounds, even though Glos only use
>Cheltenham for one CC match nowadays, and that may be what's making
>more more sympathetic. But when I think about it, I can't see what
>good those counties really do.
>
>Glamorgan usually inhabit the bottom third of the CC and don't have
>much of a record of producing Test players, but they're in Wales and
>have a ground where the E&WCB can stage matches so as to live up to
>their correct name.
>
>Durham, Yorks, Lancs, Notts, Warks, Surrey and Hants all have Test
>grounds. Middx play on one, but it belongs to another club and it's
>arguable the county itself is unnecessary.
>
>So it looks to me that we'd have to lose one of Somerset, Kent, Sussex
>and Essex. Any guesses?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike

I'm not guessing who should get the chop. It all seems a bit drastic
to me.

In Ireland they are trying to get Munster up to standard to have 4
teams in the FC competition. If in the future Connaught improve then a
5 team FC competition would be excellent.

max.it

--
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Re: So, 12 counties

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Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Mon, 9 May 2022 21:33 UTC

Will it be 2 tiers? 12 top, 6 bottom? With promotion/relegation? If so... it does seem strange. The top tier should be smaller than the bottom tier.

Is it 1 tier? 12 teams, with 6 just getting the chop... seems brutal and messy. But... so be it.

Change is needed.

I've modified my proposed 6 team Lion's comp. To this;

Today's 18 CC clubs are split into 6 (top) and 12 (bottom).

6 team top tier rules;
1. double round robin (10 matches)
2. 1st and 2nd play 5 day grand-final (1 match)
3. end of season, bottom 2 team are relegated
4. player eligibility: England qualified only. Limit of 4 in squad over 25. Limit of 2 in playing team over 25.

12 team bottom tier rules;
1. 1.5 game round robin. Half round match-ups are determined by # of times teams have played each other in recent history. Aim is to ensure an overall balance between match-ups. eg if Kent and Middx have a long-term deficit in play each other, they'd get a half round game.
2. 1v4 and 2v3 semi-finals, 4 days
3. 5 day grand-final
4. winner is promoted
5. 2nd promotion spot isn't automatically the loser of the grand-final. Instead, it goes to the semi-finalist (or losing gf-ist) who has spent the least seasons in the top tier. This helps ensure long-term fairness in time spent in top tier. If a tie, semi-finalist would be promoted. If a tie between 3rd/4th, then they'd play a play-off match.
6. no age limits
7. no England qualified only restriction (ie today's CC rules would apply re eligibility)

A Player loan system would be needed, as teams would lose access to older players players when promoted (and they'd need additional younger players). A complex issue that needs fleshing out.

Re: So, 12 counties

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Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Mon, 9 May 2022 21:45 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 7:33:30 AM UTC+10, jack fredricks wrote:
> A Player loan system would be needed, as teams would lose access to older players players when promoted (and they'd need additional younger players). A complex issue that needs fleshing out.
As well as non-England players.

Re: So, 12 counties

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Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
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 by: mike - Mon, 9 May 2022 21:49 UTC

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 9:18:53 PM UTC+1, max.it wrote:
> On Mon, 09 May 2022 18:35:12 +0100, Mike Holmans <sp...@jackalope.uk>
> wrote:
> >It's pretty obvious from the various leaks in the press that the ECB's
> >central proposal for the reform of English cricket and revival of the
> >red ball squad's fortunes will be to cut the championship to 12 teams.
> >
> >Which, as I expected, seems pretty drastic but may be what the numbers
> >dictate. Spreading the best players from 18 teams across 12 teams is
> >bound to result in a higher standard. Fewer teams requiring less
> >subsidy is more economically manageable. An 11-match f-c season
> >suffices for the likes of Australia to produce decent teams, so it
> >ought to be enough for us. One doesn't have to like it to see that it
> >makes logical sense.
> >
> >It obviously means axing 6 of the current 18. That's going to be quite
> >a raw deal for a couple of them.
> >
> >Derby, Northants and Leics contribute just about nothing to the CC.
> >Their players tend to be other counties' rejects and they made copious
> >use of the Kolpak loophole to acquire ready-made players from abroad.
> >If they have academies, they've made no noticeable difference to the
> >number of highly-skilled cricketers released into the talent pool.
> >Their followings are small. Derby is also the pinnacle of CBA matches.
> >Their ground is cold, windswept and cheerless in July; in April it
> >amounts to a pretty stiff sentence in a magistrates' court. Losing
> >these three would be a pity, but they are currently a drag on the CC.
> >
> >I have a vague feeling that Worcs and Glos are considerably more
> >useful, but I'm not sure that I can cite much evidence to back that
> >up. They both have attractive grounds, even though Glos only use
> >Cheltenham for one CC match nowadays, and that may be what's making
> >more more sympathetic. But when I think about it, I can't see what
> >good those counties really do.

Moeen started at warwicks but hes made his career at worcestershire.
But what good do a lot of football teams in the lower divs do? It seems
a bit of an odd question. Do they bring players through to the top
echelons of the game and help england win the WC since 1966. Nope.

the basic difference between counties is those that regularly stage
tests and internationals and thus get more lolly than those who dont.
There is [i assume] a big difference financially between them. This
divide has got even bigger due to covid lockdowns etc in the last
2 years, so that i spose many of the weaker sides are existing on
handouts from the ECB. So I guess their future is in the hands of
the ECB if they want to pull the plug. But I dont know what % of their
revenues come from the ECB.

> >
> >Glamorgan usually inhabit the bottom third of the CC and don't have
> >much of a record of producing Test players, but they're in Wales and
> >have a ground where the E&WCB can stage matches so as to live up to
> >their correct name.
> >
> >Durham, Yorks, Lancs, Notts, Warks, Surrey and Hants all have Test
> >grounds. Middx play on one, but it belongs to another club and it's
> >arguable the county itself is unnecessary.
> >
> >So it looks to me that we'd have to lose one of Somerset, Kent, Sussex
> >and Essex. Any guesses?
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Mike
> I'm not guessing who should get the chop. It all seems a bit drastic
> to me.
>
> In Ireland they are trying to get Munster up to standard to have 4
> teams in the FC competition. If in the future Connaught improve then a
> 5 team FC competition would be excellent.
>

perhaps the counties who get cut can play against the irish teams then.

mike

Re: So, 12 counties

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From: anw...@cuboid.co.uk (Andy Walker)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 00:06:05 +0100
Organization: Not very much
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 by: Andy Walker - Mon, 9 May 2022 23:06 UTC

On 09/05/2022 22:49, mike wrote:
[...]
> But what good do a lot of football teams in the lower divs do? It seems
> a bit of an odd question. Do they bring players through to the top
> echelons of the game and help england win the WC since 1966. Nope.

It seems to me even odder as a comment. If I go to watch Forest,
am I thinking about helping England win the WC? No, I'm hoping that they
can get promoted to the Premiership or get to the next round of the Cup,
or whatever. They're "my" team, and they get enough support to "work" as
a professional sport, same as many other sports at all sorts of levels.
As per a nearby article, if clubs do well, we can expect that the England-
qualified players among them will be good enough to make a good national
side, esp if the management is up to the task.

Separately, how often, realistically, can you expect England to
win the WC? There are ~200 countries taking part, perhaps 40 who at one
time or another have had a decent chance since the WC started, and if you
get to the knockout stages it's as much a lottery as any KO Cup. Most
countries have never won the WC; once in a lifetime is about as much as
you can hope for unless you're Brazilian.

> the basic difference between counties is those that regularly stage
> tests and internationals and thus get more lolly than those who dont.
> There is [i assume] a big difference financially between them. This
> divide has got even bigger due to covid lockdowns etc in the last
> 2 years, so that i spose many of the weaker sides are existing on
> handouts from the ECB. [...]

Well, the CC as a professional competition certainly depends on
the ECB almost entirely. You can't support 56 scheduled days per county
of 11 quite well paid professionals plus reserves, physios, ground staff,
stewards, scoreboard operators, ... on the gate money they bring in.
OTOH, T20 does quite nicely. Go figure.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Hertel

Re: So, 12 counties

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Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
From: dmike...@yahoo.co.uk (mike)
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 by: mike - Tue, 10 May 2022 09:05 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 12:06:07 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 09/05/2022 22:49, mike wrote:
> [...]
> > But what good do a lot of football teams in the lower divs do? It seems
> > a bit of an odd question. Do they bring players through to the top
> > echelons of the game and help england win the WC since 1966. Nope.
> It seems to me even odder as a comment. If I go to watch Forest,
> am I thinking about helping England win the WC?
>can get promoted to the Premiership or get to the next round of the Cup,
>No, I'm hoping that they

yes that was my point too but some think the counties only exist to provide
england with test players. thus when england do badly they say its the counties
fault. the county championship hardly gets any promotion or coverage in the
media compared to the 100 so its not surprising that its so disregarded. it
seems only to exist as a scapegoat for the failings of the players, coaches,
selectors etc, who surely are the ones really at fault for englands woes.

mike

Re: So, 12 counties

<cRxdpWC3PjeiFwRd@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>

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From: john_nos...@jhall.co.uk (John Hall)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 10:44:23 +0100
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 by: John Hall - Tue, 10 May 2022 09:44 UTC

In message <54ee43f5-c394-4ecb-b096-9d113038bb20n@googlegroups.com>,
mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 12:06:07 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
>> On 09/05/2022 22:49, mike wrote:
>> [...]
>> > But what good do a lot of football teams in the lower divs do? It seems
>> > a bit of an odd question. Do they bring players through to the top
>> > echelons of the game and help england win the WC since 1966. Nope.
>> It seems to me even odder as a comment. If I go to watch Forest,
>> am I thinking about helping England win the WC?
>>can get promoted to the Premiership or get to the next round of the Cup,
>>No, I'm hoping that they
>
>yes that was my point too but some think the counties only exist to provide
>england with test players. thus when england do badly they say its the counties
>fault. the county championship hardly gets any promotion or coverage in the
>media compared to the 100 so its not surprising that its so disregarded. it
>seems only to exist as a scapegoat for the failings of the players, coaches,
>selectors etc, who surely are the ones really at fault for englands woes.
>
>mike

The big difference between football and cricket is that Premier League
football seems to be seen as very nearly important as international
football, whereas in cricket that's not the case. (At least not outside
India, where the IPL now is arguably seen by most fans as even more
important than international cricket.)
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

Re: So, 12 counties

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Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Tue, 10 May 2022 12:15 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 12:06:07 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 09/05/2022 22:49, mike wrote:
> [...]
> > But what good do a lot of football teams in the lower divs do? It seems
> > a bit of an odd question. Do they bring players through to the top
> > echelons of the game and help england win the WC since 1966. Nope.
> It seems to me even odder as a comment. If I go to watch Forest,
> am I thinking about helping England win the WC? No, I'm hoping that they
> can get promoted to the Premiership or get to the next round of the Cup,
> or whatever. They're "my" team, and they get enough support to "work" as
> a professional sport, same as many other sports at all sorts of levels.
> As per a nearby article, if clubs do well, we can expect that the England-
> qualified players among them will be good enough to make a good national
> side, esp if the management is up to the task.
>
> Separately, how often, realistically, can you expect England to
> win the WC? There are ~200 countries taking part, perhaps 40 who at one
> time or another have had a decent chance since the WC started, and if you
> get to the knockout stages it's as much a lottery as any KO Cup. Most
> countries have never won the WC; once in a lifetime is about as much as
> you can hope for unless you're Brazilian.
> > the basic difference between counties is those that regularly stage
> > tests and internationals and thus get more lolly than those who dont.
> > There is [i assume] a big difference financially between them. This
> > divide has got even bigger due to covid lockdowns etc in the last
> > 2 years, so that i spose many of the weaker sides are existing on
> > handouts from the ECB. [...]
>
> Well, the CC as a professional competition certainly depends on
> the ECB almost entirely.

The ECB is the CC counties.

The money which the ECB handles is owed to the counties.

Income raised by the counties is considerable - see separate thread I have started.

What is dangerous is allow the CC to be neglected by promoting limited overs cricket over FC cricket.

RH

You can't support 56 scheduled days per county

Who says? There is plenty of money in English cricket, eg, look at the obscene salaries paid to ECB management.

RH

> of 11 quite well paid professionals plus reserves, physios, ground staff,
> stewards, scoreboard operators, ... on the gate money they bring in.
> OTOH, T20 does quite nicely. Go figure.

>
> --
> Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Hertel

Re: So, 12 counties

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Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
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 by: RH - Tue, 10 May 2022 12:53 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 12:06:07 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 09/05/2022 22:49, mike wrote:
> [...]
> > But what good do a lot of football teams in the lower divs do? It seems
> > a bit of an odd question. Do they bring players through to the top
> > echelons of the game and help england win the WC since 1966. Nope.
> It seems to me even odder as a comment. If I go to watch Forest,

Dr B-M emerges as a football fan . Snigger. His bewilderment between supporting the England side and a club side is of course quite natural because he does not understand what a nation is. There is no conflict between wanting English players to do well at both levels to satisfy both support for a club and support for the England, side. What is wholly abnormal is to support the England side and a club side when either are tainted by players who are not English. RH

> Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Hertel

Re: So, 12 counties

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: So, 12 counties
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 16:44:04 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Tue, 10 May 2022 15:44 UTC

On Mon, 9 May 2022 14:49:13 -0700 (PDT), mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>the basic difference between counties is those that regularly stage
>tests and internationals and thus get more lolly than those who dont.
>There is [i assume] a big difference financially between them. This
>divide has got even bigger due to covid lockdowns etc in the last
>2 years, so that i spose many of the weaker sides are existing on
>handouts from the ECB. So I guess their future is in the hands of
>the ECB if they want to pull the plug. But I dont know what % of their
>revenues come from the ECB.

I decided to do a little research, and looked at the annual accounts
covering the 2019 season (the last pre-Covid) for some of the
non-Test-hosting counties.

The average figures were:

Membership income £300k
Match-day ticket income (both red and white balls) £600k
ECB handout £2.5m
They each have other income streams from sponsorships and non-cricket
usage of facilities and things, but they vary wildly and I'm not
spending ages buried in auditors' notes on accounting policies to try
and untangle them.

The only county who broke their match-day income down in detail was
Glos. Their income from the CC matches in 2018 and 2019 averaged £35k
per match at Cheltenham (2 per season, total yield £140k) and £3k per
match at Bristol (10 matches, total £35k), for a total of slightly
under £100k per season from CC match-day receipts. Taking £1000 per
day at Bristol doesn't actually cover the cost of opening the gates.
A senior player costs about £100k - £60k gross salary, £40k employer's
NI, pension contribution, healthcare, etc. Glos's receipts from CC
match-days pay for one. Even being generous about how many membership
sales are primarily driven by the CC, CC-attributable membership
receipts finance one other player.

Or, to put it another way, the CC actually raises enough money to
prepare the pitch, open the gates and have adequate stewarding on
matchdays - and that's it. The money to pay for players, coaches and
so on has to come from somewhere else. As does the money for
facilities, youth programmes, community outreach, travelling and
accommodation, the management of the business and the accountancy to
keep track of it all.

Cheers,

Mike

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