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aus+uk / uk.sport.cricket / Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

SubjectAuthor
* What the CC can't teach potential Test playersMike Holmans
+* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersjack fredricks
|`* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersAndy Walker
| +* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersMike Holmans
| |`* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersAndy Walker
| | +- Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersMike Holmans
| | +* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersRH
| | |`* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersNajeeb ybo
| | | `* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersRH
| | |  `* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersNajeeb ybo
| | |   `* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersRH
| | |    `* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersNajeeb ybo
| | |     `- Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersRH
| | `* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersMike Holmans
| |  +* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersjack fredricks
| |  |`- Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersRH
| |  `* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersAndy Walker
| |   `- Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersMike Holmans
| `- Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersRH
+- Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersRH
`* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersRichard Dixon
 +* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersMike Holmans
 |`* Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playerssteve hague
 | `- Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersMike Holmans
 `- Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test playersjack fredricks

1
What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 10:55:14 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Thu, 19 May 2022 09:55 UTC

I was talking to a bloke I vaguely know in my local coffee bar who was
a professional footballer who went into coaching and is now retired.

What football teams do in the first few minutes of a big game is
assess which of the opposition players aren't coping with the
occasion. They're looking for players whose "equilibrium of judgement"
is off-kilter. If that's off, then what is an easy decision on the
training ground is difficult to get right in actual play.

There is no way in which a county championship match can replicate the
conditions in which a new Test player finds himself. He's not going to
have to struggle to hear himself think, there isn't a whole nation
expecting great things of him, he's not going to be torn apart on
social media if he gets out stupidly.

Whilst the followers of an IPL franchise aren't quite a whole nation,
the rest of the conditions in the IPL are marvellously educational for
an aspiring Test player.

Having so far spent their careers as just about the best player in the
team from age 11 onwards, they arrive in a squad containing a number
of players who are better than they are and are going to have to
perform and keep performing to get selected and stay in the team. When
they play, it's in a noisy cauldron with all sorts of distractions,
and they're having to get decisions right every ball, with options
such as leaving alone or calm defensive shot not being on the
recommended menu for batters and consistency of line and length being
a disadvantage for bowlers, who therefore have to make more decisions
as they prepare to bowl.

The top players in the IPL are cool and calm in difficult situations,
so they are making correct judgments about shots to play and balls to
bowl 95% of the time. Contrast this with the cluelessness of English
batsmen making their first tentative appearances in a Test. In
particular, note Zak Crawley's compulsion to play ridiculously
expansive cover drives an hour before he's got his eye in.

Playing domestic four-day cricket provides the technical education
which a Test player needs. It can also inculcate the patience a Test
player needs. What it cannot do is provide the pressurised environment
which scrambles brains; the most pressurised environment outside Test
cricket is to be found in the IPL.

Andy Walker was tentatively theorising that Covid bubbles had a lot to
do with the most successful Test teams having 7 players from their
international T20 sides. Maybe, but I am leaning towards the view that
it's because franchise cricket provides an essential part of a top
cricketer's education in this day and age.

The essence of the franchise tournament is that it's compact; you can
watch every single match live on TV. This year's IPL expanded to 10
teams playing 14 matches in the round robin, and I'm not convinced
that adding an extra 10 days to the RR has improved things - it's
become a bit of a drag now. To have a manageable tournament in
England, you'd need to have a two-division Blast with promotion and
relegation and Div 1 on TV, and that results in a haves and have-nots
situation very fast.

Much though it pains me to say it, we have to hope that the 100 will
develop to provide something vaguely comparable to the IPL cauldron.
What the 100 does by effectively restricting the number of places
available for England-qualified players to 60 is generate competition
for places amongst the players who ought to be on the fringes of
international selection - competition they certainly don't face at
their counties. They're exposed to 30-odd overseas internationals who
show what really high standards imply for players. And with every
match live on TV, it generates the social media traffic which
high-profile players need to get used to. This doesn't mean that I
don't think the 100 is a misbegotten nonsense adding an extra format
we didn't need, but it's what we've got.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Thu, 19 May 2022 10:14 UTC

I don't think the significant pressures of Test cricket are the same as those in T20.

The primary cause of pressure in Tests is the high quality play. A batsman might face 50 balls without a decent scoring opportunity.
Or a relentless bowling spell so good that a single poorly executed shot will result in your wicket.
Conversely, a spinner might try every trick in his arsenal, only to have a masterful batsman repel all attacks.

This might be simplifying it, but a batsman who is struggling in T20 can just hit out. In fact.. it's a crime to NOT do that. Better to get out and let the next batsman try their luck.
Tests don't have that escape. There's no "hiding" in Tests.

There should always be a gap between FC and Test cricket. But it would be nice if your FC teams didn't have too many players who weren't good enough to even be considered for Tests. Or considered and instantly dismissed.
I know you've not said otherwise, but I'd rather high quality FC cricket to prepare Test players than a few loud T20 games.

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Thu, 19 May 2022 10:14 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:55:16 AM UTC+1, Mike Holmans wrote:
> I was talking to a bloke I vaguely know in my local coffee bar who was
> a professional footballer who went into coaching and is now retired.
>
> What football teams do in the first few minutes of a big game is
> assess which of the opposition players aren't coping with the
> occasion. They're looking for players whose "equilibrium of judgement"
> is off-kilter. If that's off, then what is an easy decision on the
> training ground is difficult to get right in actual play.
>
> There is no way in which a county championship match can replicate the
> conditions in which a new Test player finds himself. He's not going to
> have to struggle to hear himself think, there isn't a whole nation
> expecting great things of him, he's not going to be torn apart on
> social media if he gets out stupidly.
>
> Whilst the followers of an IPL franchise aren't quite a whole nation,
> the rest of the conditions in the IPL are marvellously educational for
> an aspiring Test player.
>
> Having so far spent their careers as just about the best player in the
> team from age 11 onwards, they arrive in a squad containing a number
> of players who are better than they are and are going to have to
> perform and keep performing to get selected and stay in the team. When
> they play, it's in a noisy cauldron with all sorts of distractions,
> and they're having to get decisions right every ball, with options
> such as leaving alone or calm defensive shot not being on the
> recommended menu for batters and consistency of line and length being
> a disadvantage for bowlers, who therefore have to make more decisions
> as they prepare to bowl.
>
> The top players in the IPL are cool and calm in difficult situations,
> so they are making correct judgments about shots to play and balls to
> bowl 95% of the time. Contrast this with the cluelessness of English
> batsmen making their first tentative appearances in a Test. In
> particular, note Zak Crawley's compulsion to play ridiculously
> expansive cover drives an hour before he's got his eye in.
>
> Playing domestic four-day cricket provides the technical education
> which a Test player needs. It can also inculcate the patience a Test
> player needs. What it cannot do is provide the pressurised environment
> which scrambles brains; the most pressurised environment outside Test
> cricket is to be found in the IPL.

Strange how England Test teams playing in 3 day CC matches - which was the norm for the vast majority of the time from 1877 (when Tests began) until the 1990s - were considerably more successful than England sides have been since 4 day CC cricket has been introduced ,.

Yet more absurdity from Master unwholesome... RH

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: richsdix...@gmail.com (Richard Dixon)
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 by: Richard Dixon - Thu, 19 May 2022 11:38 UTC

On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 10:55:16 UTC+1, Mike Holmans wrote:

> Playing domestic four-day cricket provides the technical education
> which a Test player needs. It can also inculcate the patience a Test
> player needs. What it cannot do is provide the pressurised environment
> which scrambles brains

You only need to see the comfort with which Pope plays county cricket and how skittish he's seemed in an England top of late to underscore what you're saying.

Richard

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 13:14:45 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Thu, 19 May 2022 12:14 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 04:38:31 -0700 (PDT), Richard Dixon
<richsdixon1975@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 10:55:16 UTC+1, Mike Holmans wrote:
>
>> Playing domestic four-day cricket provides the technical education
>> which a Test player needs. It can also inculcate the patience a Test
>> player needs. What it cannot do is provide the pressurised environment
>> which scrambles brains
>
>You only need to see the comfort with which Pope plays county cricket and how skittish he's seemed in an England top of late to underscore what you're saying.

Note that I'm not saying that Test players shouldn't play four-day
cricket. I am saying that playing a season or two in the IPL is as
valuable as playing county cricket was/is for the overseas players who
came and learned about different conditions. Even though the batting
and bowling tactics (at least) are entirely different, the sound and
atmosphere are much more like international cricket than you'll ever
get at f-c cricket anywhere in the world. The precise bounciness of
the pitch isn't the only factor in what makes for tough and
challenging conditions to play cricket.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Thu, 19 May 2022 12:40 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:38:32 PM UTC+10, richsdi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 10:55:16 UTC+1, Mike Holmans wrote:
>
> > Playing domestic four-day cricket provides the technical education
> > which a Test player needs. It can also inculcate the patience a Test
> > player needs. What it cannot do is provide the pressurised environment
> > which scrambles brains
> You only need to see the comfort with which Pope plays county cricket and how skittish he's seemed in an England top of late to underscore what you're saying.

Is the pressure caused by crowds/expectations/selectionworries/etc or skill differences?
Pope is again averaging around 70 in CC. Far, far more than what he averages in Tests.

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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From: stevehag...@gmail.com (steve hague)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
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 by: steve hague - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:37 UTC

On 19/05/2022 13:14, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 04:38:31 -0700 (PDT), Richard Dixon
> <richsdixon1975@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 10:55:16 UTC+1, Mike Holmans wrote:
>>
>>> Playing domestic four-day cricket provides the technical education
>>> which a Test player needs. It can also inculcate the patience a Test
>>> player needs. What it cannot do is provide the pressurised environment
>>> which scrambles brains
>>
>> You only need to see the comfort with which Pope plays county cricket and how skittish he's seemed in an England top of late to underscore what you're saying.
>
> Note that I'm not saying that Test players shouldn't play four-day
> cricket. I am saying that playing a season or two in the IPL is as
> valuable as playing county cricket was/is for the overseas players who
> came and learned about different conditions. Even though the batting
> and bowling tactics (at least) are entirely different, the sound and
> atmosphere are much more like international cricket than you'll ever
> get at f-c cricket anywhere in the world. The precise bounciness of
> the pitch isn't the only factor in what makes for tough and
> challenging conditions to play cricket.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
Not disagreeing, but also it can take time for a player to adapt to
Test cricket, time which T20 players don't have. How many Tests did
Grahame Gooch play before he looked to be good enough? Or Mike Gatting?
Steve Hague

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 18:44:58 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Thu, 19 May 2022 17:44 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 16:37:22 +0100, steve hague
<stevehague82@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not disagreeing, but also it can take time for a player to adapt to
>Test cricket, time which T20 players don't have. How many Tests did
>Grahame Gooch play before he looked to be good enough? Or Mike Gatting?

Not disagreeing either, but why did they have such a hard time early
on in their international careers? Might they have done better if they
had had experience of high-pressure environments before they played
Test cricket, given that such didn't exist in the late 70s and early
80s? Certainly Gatt made an awful lot of mistakes which could only be
explained by scrambled brains.

99% of people who get picked to play Test matches are skilled enough
as cricketers to be able to perform at least not very far below the
required standard. That some don't even perform anything like as well
as one has a reasonable right to expect isn't because they lack the
skill but because they lack the mental composure to perform as they
normally do on an unfamiliar stage.

The limited point that I have been making is that franchise cricket
offers the chance to play in something akin to the spotlight under
which Test cricket is played in England and therefore has a value to
potential Test cricketers who can learn how to think straight while
30,000 people are yelling at you.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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From: anw...@cuboid.co.uk (Andy Walker)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 20:08:06 +0100
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 by: Andy Walker - Fri, 20 May 2022 19:08 UTC

On 19/05/2022 11:14, jack fredricks wrote:
> There should always be a gap between FC and Test cricket. But it
> would be nice if your FC teams didn't have too many players who
> weren't good enough to even be considered for Tests. Or considered
> and instantly dismissed.

That amounts to a claim that there should not be more than four
or five f-c sides in any one country or, for that matter, in any one
sport. It's a point of view, and I can see why it might appeal to
those countries/sports where there are only a handful of states, or
centres of population, or islands or whatever. But, strangely, this
affliction of too many players only seems to apply to Test cricket.
I don't see the same complaints about T20 or about hockey or rugger
or [the biggie] football. Indeed, there is intense pressure to get
into the Premiership [or any higher division than the one the team
is currently in], and to avoid relegation. Nor does anyone complain
that of the zillions of professional golfers or tennis players only
a handful are ever likely to get picked for the Ryder Cup or to win
Wimbledon.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Playing for a top
football team is an end in itself. Yes, it's nice if you go on to
get picked for England, but no-one says "Bloggs, decent chap, but
only good enough to play for Borchester Rovers"*. This applies to
county cricketers as much as it applies to other sports. You don't
need to be a Test star to be a local celebrity, to appear on local
TV, to open buildings and so on. This isn't, as you seem to think,
a cult of mediocrity; rather, it's the natural and inevitable result
of a sporting pyramid. People in Oz [and even in London] see Notts
as a small, unimportant speck on the map; but we have our heroes,
we support our teams and players, and we take it very amiss when
we're written off, and we're proud when our players do make it to
the Test side, or the Olympics, or any other similar "honour".

The real question is, as always, one of funding. Crowds,
or lack thereof, are voting with their feet. The CC runs at a loss.
T20 runs at a profit. Unless you have some way for the CC to turn
that around, the long-term effect of this is inevitable. There is
loads of money in cricket in the UK, but there's no real reason why
it should be frittered on [an aspect of] a sport that many of us
follow, but few [other than children and pensioners] pay for.

The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials. We
used to have these: not only Gents v Players, but also North v
South, and actual Test trials. I doubt whether anything similar
would these days generate much atmosphere [though we get enough of
that in T20], but it would at least help to sort out those capable
of building an innings against consistent Test-quality bowling from
those who can only score against weaker attacks, and likewise the
bowlers who can only trouble the rabbits from those who can apply
pressure that troubles high-quality batting.
____
* Other top football clubs are available.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Duphly

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 22:16:01 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Fri, 20 May 2022 21:16 UTC

On Fri, 20 May 2022 20:08:06 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
>an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
>not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials.

I dispute "The". Certainly it is "A", but I think the Association of
Cat-Skinners would beg to differ about there being a unique answer.

All of us sitting around here pontificating on what will help players
perform at ever-higher levels have the disadvantage that we have no
experience of doing it ourselves.

Batters have been facing bowlers and vice versa since they were that
high, so it's not as though a batter taking guard in his first Test or
a bowler running up to deliver the first ball of a Test is doing
anything unfamiliar at the technical level.

We know from the testimony of the greatest performers in every sport
ever invented that the secret of their success is to be able to ignore
absolutely everything except the performance of whatever action they
have decided on. Test cricket adds the extra dimension of needing to
be able to do it for hours at a stretch, where other sports only
require 30 seconds.

I don't believe that there is a single reason why players are unable
to shut out irrelevance, or that the combination of reasons will be
the same for any given player. To me, that implies that there are
likely to be multiple routes to mentally equipping potential Test
players.

Trial matches offer opportunities to maintain skill levels
consistently for long periods. They are highly unlikely to offer much
opportunity for thinking straight while 20,000 people are making a
noise; those opportunities now occur in games where they don't have to
perform for more than an hour and a half at their top levels of skill
at whatever it is they do. Both abilities are important, so to say
that something which only addresses half the problem is "the" answer
seems needlessly prescriptive.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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From: anw...@cuboid.co.uk (Andy Walker)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 00:09:57 +0100
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 by: Andy Walker - Fri, 20 May 2022 23:09 UTC

On 20/05/2022 22:16, Mike Holmans wrote:
[I wrote:
>> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
>> an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
>> not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials.
> I dispute "The". Certainly it is "A", but I think the Association of
> Cat-Skinners would beg to differ about there being a unique answer.

But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
[and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
a small proportion of the players are of Test standard. That much is a
fact of mathematics; and it doesn't apply to Oz in the same way that it
applied to the UK simply because a far higher proportion of Oz State
players are internationals than of UK county players. There is no other
answer to that than to have at least some matches where the players are
chosen from a smaller pool. As you note, the Hundred, execrable as it
is in some other ways, at least fulfils that purpose.

[...]> We know from the testimony of the greatest performers in every sport
> ever invented that the secret of their success is to be able to ignore
> absolutely everything except the performance of whatever action they
> have decided on. Test cricket adds the extra dimension of needing to
> be able to do it for hours at a stretch, where other sports only
> require 30 seconds.

That's not unique to Test cricket, nor to sports. F1 drivers
are risking their lives if they lose concentration even briefly over
many laps of the track. One lapse over four days of golf can cost a
player two or three strokes and a huge amount of prize money. A chess
game often lasts four to six hours of intense continuous concentration,
after which "brain fry" can easily cause a blunder. A concert pianist
may be expected to play up to ~1000 notes/minute without mistake over
many minutes without any break or let-up. Academic exams typically
require several hours of concentration. Each sport/activity has its
own patterns of intensity and duration. I agree, of course, that in
any high-level performance you have to be able to shut out irrelevant
concerns.

> I don't believe that there is a single reason why players are unable
> to shut out irrelevance, or that the combination of reasons will be
> the same for any given player. To me, that implies that there are
> likely to be multiple routes to mentally equipping potential Test
> players.

Yes, but that's a different matter. A Test trial is not there
to equip players with concentration [and other factors, eg judgement],
but to determine which players have the required levels when faced with
high-quality opposition. If they don't, then it's up to players and
coaches to determine whether there are changes that can be made to
improve matters.

> Trial matches offer opportunities to maintain skill levels
> consistently for long periods. They are highly unlikely to offer much
> opportunity for thinking straight while 20,000 people are making a
> noise;

I note in passing that the noise made by 20,000 people at Lord's
is as nothing compared with the noise made by a typical football crowd
[whether of 5,000 or 50,000+]; and I suspect that a lot of Test
authorities outside the UK would kill for a crowd that size.

> those opportunities now occur in games where they don't have to
> perform for more than an hour and a half at their top levels of skill
> at whatever it is they do. Both abilities are important, so to say
> that something which only addresses half the problem is "the" answer
> seems needlessly prescriptive.

It would be were it not that talking about "the" problem is just
as prescriptive. There are several problems with UK cricket; and also
a number of successes. Lumping things together disguises them. The
biggest /actual/ problem with our Test cricket is our propensity to be
23-3 after about an hour's play. Everything else is at the level of
sometimes going well, sometimes badly -- but that's the nature of sport.
If it seems to have been going predominantly badly over the last couple
of years, I would be prepared to write off quite a lot of it as the
effects of policies [possibly mistaken, but to some extent forced on us]
around Covid, and to wait to see the effects of the new regime.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Duphly

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 05:05:37 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Sat, 21 May 2022 04:05 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:09:57 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

> It would be were it not that talking about "the" problem is just
>as prescriptive. There are several problems with UK cricket; and also
>a number of successes. Lumping things together disguises them. The
>biggest /actual/ problem with our Test cricket is our propensity to be
>23-3 after about an hour's play. Everything else is at the level of
>sometimes going well, sometimes badly -- but that's the nature of sport.
>If it seems to have been going predominantly badly over the last couple
>of years, I would be prepared to write off quite a lot of it as the
>effects of policies [possibly mistaken, but to some extent forced on us]
>around Covid, and to wait to see the effects of the new regime.

I thoroughly agree, particularly that there are both areas of success
and areas of failure.

The thinking that I've been doing recently because of the
conversations we've been having (among other reasons) is convincing me
that it is in the white ball game's interest for the red ball game to
continue, and that the two forms of the game can reinforce each other
rather than detract in competition with each other.

I note that England's latest Test recruit Potts has said that he
didn't like getting pegged as a white-ball bowler and had made the
efforts to become an all-format player. Given where he was in his
career when making that decision, it seems to have been a matter of
professional self-respect rather than of income maximisation. (No, we
have no way of knowing whether future generations of players will feel
the same way, but it is mildly reassuring that the current generation
do.)

The case for retaining red ball cricket does not have to rest entirely
on the revenue potential of Test cricket; if playing it results in
better T20 players, that is also a virtue which may encourage subsidy
of games with low spectator appeal - highly unlikely to be enough to
justify it on its own, but a factor which may swing a little weight in
some circumstances.

I share your analysis that there is no foreseeable way to preserve red
ball cricket in perpetuity because it cannot ever really be
self-sufficient in any universe we can imagine. However, I don't see
that the known eventual expansion of the sun and obliteration of all
known life is an excuse not to try and preserve the planet as
habitable for as long as possible.

I am therefore hoping that the new regime will see red and white ball
cricket as facets of a cricketer's experience, and that ideally
players should participate in both because what they learn in one has
application in the other even though the other doesn't offer the same
exact opportunities as the one. The more they can keep the two forms
co-operating rather than competing, the better. (Yes, that's extremely
vague and means very little, but I'll know it when I see it.)

Cheers,

Mike

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Sat, 21 May 2022 05:56 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:08:08 PM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 19/05/2022 11:14, jack fredricks wrote:
> > There should always be a gap between FC and Test cricket. But it
> > would be nice if your FC teams didn't have too many players who
> > weren't good enough to even be considered for Tests. Or considered
> > and instantly dismissed.
> That amounts to a claim that there should not be more than four
> or five f-c sides in any one country or, for that matter, in any one
> sport. It's a point of view, and I can see why it might appeal to
> those countries/sports where there are only a handful of states, or
> centres of population, or islands or whatever. But, strangely, this
> affliction of too many players only seems to apply to Test cricket.
> I don't see the same complaints about T20 or about hockey or rugger
> or [the biggie] football. Indeed, there is intense pressure to get
> into the Premiership [or any higher division than the one the team
> is currently in], and to avoid relegation. Nor does anyone complain
> that of the zillions of professional golfers or tennis players only
> a handful are ever likely to get picked for the Ryder Cup or to win
> Wimbledon.
>
> I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Playing for a top
> football team is an end in itself.

Playing for a county is an end in itself. That is why even in these fragmented days players have long career. Nor is the money trivial for a county regular. RH

Yes, it's nice if you go on to
> get picked for England, but no-one says "Bloggs, decent chap, but
> only good enough to play for Borchester Rovers"*. This applies to
> county cricketers as much as it applies to other sports. You don't
> need to be a Test star to be a local celebrity, to appear on local
> TV, to open buildings and so on. This isn't, as you seem to think,
> a cult of mediocrity; rather, it's the natural and inevitable result
> of a sporting pyramid. People in Oz [and even in London] see Notts
> as a small, unimportant speck on the map; but we have our heroes,
> we support our teams and players, and we take it very amiss when
> we're written off, and we're proud when our players do make it to
> the Test side, or the Olympics, or any other similar "honour".
>
> The real question is, as always, one of funding. Crowds,
> or lack thereof, are voting with their feet. The CC runs at a loss.
> T20 runs at a profit. Unless you have some way for the CC to turn
> that around, the long-term effect of this is inevitable.

Allow free entry for a day's CC on the production of any ticket stub for a game involving England.
Sell tickets for mixed types of cricket, eg, a ticket for a T20 game and a days CC .

RH

There is
> loads of money in cricket in the UK, but there's no real reason why
> it should be frittered on [an aspect of] a sport that many of us
> follow, but few [other than children and pensioners] pay for.

You either want FC cricket to survive or you don't but CC does at least deserve a few years of strenuous effort to promote it. In my lifetime the problem has always been a lack of effort to promote county cricket. RH
>
> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
> an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
> not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials. We
> used to have these: not only Gents v Players, but also North v
> South, and actual Test trials. I doubt whether anything similar
> would these days generate much atmosphere [though we get enough of
> that in T20], but it would at least help to sort out those capable
> of building an innings against consistent Test-quality bowling from
> those who can only score against weaker attacks, and likewise the
> bowlers who can only trouble the rabbits from those who can apply
> pressure that troubles high-quality batting.

Formal Test trials are a proven waste of time. Something like North v South might be of use as an attractive game. . RH
> ____
> * Other top football clubs are available.
>
> --
> Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Duphly

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Sat, 21 May 2022 06:00 UTC

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:02 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 20/05/2022 22:16, Mike Holmans wrote:
> [I wrote:
> >> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
> >> an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
> >> not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials.
> > I dispute "The". Certainly it is "A", but I think the Association of
> > Cat-Skinners would beg to differ about there being a unique answer.
> But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
> [and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
> a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.

The UK has three times the population of Australia. Next! RH

That much is a
> fact of mathematics; and it doesn't apply to Oz in the same way that it
> applied to the UK simply because a far higher proportion of Oz State
> players are internationals than of UK county players. There is no other
> answer to that than to have at least some matches where the players are
> chosen from a smaller pool. As you note, the Hundred, execrable as it
> is in some other ways, at least fulfils that purpose.
> Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Duphly

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: najeeb...@gmail.com (Najeeb ybo)
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 by: Najeeb ybo - Sun, 22 May 2022 12:44 UTC

On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 07:00:51 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:02 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> > On 20/05/2022 22:16, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > [I wrote:
> > >> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
> > >> an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
> > >> not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials.
> > > I dispute "The". Certainly it is "A", but I think the Association of
> > > Cat-Skinners would beg to differ about there being a unique answer.
> > But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
> > [and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
> > a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.

> The UK has three times the population of Australia. Next! RH

You interrupted before reading on. You truly are an idiot.

> >That much is a
> > fact of mathematics; and it doesn't apply to Oz in the same way that it
> > applied to the UK simply because a far higher proportion of Oz State
> > players are internationals than of UK county players. There is no other
> > answer to that than to have at least some matches where the players are
> > chosen from a smaller pool. As you note, the Hundred, execrable as it
> > is in some other ways, at least fulfils that purpose.

> > Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> > Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> > Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Duphly

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Sun, 22 May 2022 13:03 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:44:26 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 07:00:51 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:02 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> > > On 20/05/2022 22:16, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > [I wrote:
> > > >> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
> > > >> an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
> > > >> not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials.
> > > > I dispute "The". Certainly it is "A", but I think the Association of
> > > > Cat-Skinners would beg to differ about there being a unique answer.
> > > But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
> > > [and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
> > > a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.
>
>
> > The UK has three times the population of Australia. Next! RH
> You interrupted before reading on. You truly are an idiot.

Yet more wriggling by the pc brigade ... RH

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

<7fdk8h17dja245akft9k3pi77mbn8ilja8@4ax.com>

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 14:12:09 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Sun, 22 May 2022 13:12 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:09:57 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 20/05/2022 22:16, Mike Holmans wrote:
>[I wrote:
>>> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
>>> an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
>>> not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials.
>> I dispute "The". Certainly it is "A", but I think the Association of
>> Cat-Skinners would beg to differ about there being a unique answer.
>
> But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
>[and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
>a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.

As you implicitly acknowledge, that is not the unique answer to that
problem. You don't have to abolish "the counties", but you can decide
to ditch a third of them. I don't claim that it is a pleasant answer,
but it is a different answer.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: najeeb...@gmail.com (Najeeb ybo)
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 by: Najeeb ybo - Sun, 22 May 2022 15:34 UTC

On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 14:03:45 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:44:26 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> > On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 07:00:51 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:02 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> > > > On 20/05/2022 22:16, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > [I wrote:
> > > > >> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
> > > > >> an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
> > > > >> not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials.
> > > > > I dispute "The". Certainly it is "A", but I think the Association of
> > > > > Cat-Skinners would beg to differ about there being a unique answer.
> > > > But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
> > > > [and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
> > > > a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.
> >
> >
> > > The UK has three times the population of Australia. Next! RH

> > You interrupted before reading on. You truly are an idiot.

> Yet more wriggling by the pc brigade ... RH

Even more from stupidy stupidy Henderson confirming once again that he is an idiot..

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Sun, 22 May 2022 19:55 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:34:56 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 14:03:45 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:44:26 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> > > On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 07:00:51 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:02 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> > > > > On 20/05/2022 22:16, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > > [I wrote:
> > > > > >> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
> > > > > >> an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
> > > > > >> not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials.
> > > > > > I dispute "The". Certainly it is "A", but I think the Association of
> > > > > > Cat-Skinners would beg to differ about there being a unique answer.
> > > > > But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
> > > > > [and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
> > > > > a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.
> > >
> > >
> > > > The UK has three times the population of Australia. Next! RH
>
>
> > > You interrupted before reading on. You truly are an idiot.
>
> > Yet more wriggling by the pc brigade ... RH

> Even more from stupidy stupidy Henderson confirming once again that he is an idiot..

Note how liberal bigots revert to childhood when challenged and the continued wriggling by a member of the pc brigade ....RH

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Sun, 22 May 2022 22:26 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 11:12:10 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
> >[and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
> >a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.
> As you implicitly acknowledge, that is not the unique answer to that
> problem. You don't have to abolish "the counties", but you can decide
> to ditch a third of them. I don't claim that it is a pleasant answer,
> but it is a different answer.

I'd like to butt in and say I also don't think it's necessary to ditch any of them. Heck, I don't even mind that County CEO's idea of ADDING more Counties. So long as CC is split into tiers and the entire culture around the top tier changes.
For some, like RH, that will be just as bad as abolishing CC.
Seismic change is needed.

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Mon, 23 May 2022 15:18 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 11:26:42 PM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 11:12:10 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
> > >[and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
> > >a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.
> > As you implicitly acknowledge, that is not the unique answer to that
> > problem. You don't have to abolish "the counties", but you can decide
> > to ditch a third of them. I don't claim that it is a pleasant answer,
> > but it is a different answer.
> I'd like to butt in and say I also don't think it's necessary to ditch any of them. Heck, I don't even mind that County CEO's idea of ADDING more Counties. So long as CC is split into tiers and the entire culture around the top tier changes.
> For some, like RH, that will be just as bad as abolishing CC.
> Seismic change is needed.

These strong minor counties could make a fist of the CC :

Northumberland
Cumberland
Cheshire
Staffordshire
Shropshire
Devon
Norfolk
Lincolnshire
Hertfordshire
Norfolk
RH

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: najeeb...@gmail.com (Najeeb ybo)
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 by: Najeeb ybo - Mon, 23 May 2022 15:34 UTC

On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 20:55:35 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:34:56 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> > On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 14:03:45 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:44:26 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 07:00:51 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:02 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> > > > > > On 20/05/2022 22:16, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > > > [I wrote:
> > > > > > >> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
> > > > > > >> an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
> > > > > > >> not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials.
> > > > > > > I dispute "The". Certainly it is "A", but I think the Association of
> > > > > > > Cat-Skinners would beg to differ about there being a unique answer.
> > > > > > But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
> > > > > > [and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
> > > > > > a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > The UK has three times the population of Australia. Next! RH
> >
> >
> > > > You interrupted before reading on. You truly are an idiot.
> >
> > > Yet more wriggling by the pc brigade ... RH
>
> > Even more from stupidy stupidy Henderson confirming once again that he is an idiot..

> Note how liberal bigots revert to childhood when challenged and the continued wriggling by a member of the pc brigade ....RH

There is no bigger infant here than you Robert Henderson. What have you challenged? You made an idiot of yourself by failing to read a post before interjecting and being stupid.
No need to for you to try and hide it, everyone has already seen.

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Mon, 23 May 2022 18:59 UTC

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 4:34:37 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 20:55:35 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:34:56 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> > > On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 14:03:45 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:44:26 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 07:00:51 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:02 AM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> > > > > > > On 20/05/2022 22:16, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > > > > [I wrote:
> > > > > > > >> The way to solve the problem of players being pitched into
> > > > > > > >> an unfamiliarly high-level of the sport and being found wanting is
> > > > > > > >> not to abolish the counties, but to run a programme of trials.
> > > > > > > > I dispute "The". Certainly it is "A", but I think the Association of
> > > > > > > > Cat-Skinners would beg to differ about there being a unique answer.
> > > > > > > But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
> > > > > > > [and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
> > > > > > > a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > The UK has three times the population of Australia. Next! RH
> > >
> > >
> > > > > You interrupted before reading on. You truly are an idiot.
> > >
> > > > Yet more wriggling by the pc brigade ... RH
> >
> > > Even more from stupidy stupidy Henderson confirming once again that he is an idiot..
>
>
> > Note how liberal bigots revert to childhood when challenged and the continued wriggling by a member of the pc brigade ....RH
> There is no bigger infant here than you Robert Henderson. What have you challenged? You made an idiot of yourself by failing to read a post before interjecting and being stupid.
> No need to for you to try and hide it, everyone has already seen.

Yet another liberal n bigot temper tantrum worthy of a six year old... RH

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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From: anw...@cuboid.co.uk (Andy Walker)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 20:33:06 +0100
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 by: Andy Walker - Mon, 23 May 2022 19:33 UTC

On 22/05/2022 14:12, Mike Holmans wrote:
[I wrote:]
>> But there /is/ a unique answer to the problem that JZF points to
>> [and which I agree is a problem], that if there many f-c teams then only
>> a small proportion of the players are of Test standard.
> As you implicitly acknowledge, that is not the unique answer to that
> problem. You don't have to abolish "the counties", but you can decide
> to ditch a third of them. I don't claim that it is a pleasant answer,
> but it is a different answer.

It isn't an answer. To get a decent proportion of CC cricketers
to be of sufficiently high standard that CC matches are a serious test of
suitability for promotion, somewhere around six CC teams is the practical
limit. That's plain arithmetic. Even with six, most of the players will
be neither in the current Test side nor among the 10-15 with serious claims
to replace them; so either some of the teams have to be well below Test
standard or else a substantial part of them have to be ineligible [eg,
foreigners]. Neither of those does much to improve the standard of UK
cricket. That's why I think the only real solution to the JZF problem
is a [small] set of matches [eg North v South, or North/Midlands/South]
to serve as trials. Or, if that can't be arranged, an acceptance that
the problem is effectively insoluble.

As for county cricket, I see no benefit at all in "ditching" a
significant number of counties. I see much more in opening the CC up
to several divisions, inc many/most/all current minor counties, with
promotion and relegation. If we're serious about improving cricket
world-wide, then something more like rugger's "Six Nations" is called
for. Enough European [or N hemisphere?] countries have teams; it's
the antiquated "first-class or you're nowhere" attitude that stops
there being a meaningful competition. Just takes some imagination.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Joplin

Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: What the CC can't teach potential Test players
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 21:08:44 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Mon, 23 May 2022 20:08 UTC

On Mon, 23 May 2022 20:33:06 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

> It isn't an answer. To get a decent proportion of CC cricketers
>to be of sufficiently high standard that CC matches are a serious test of
>suitability for promotion, somewhere around six CC teams is the practical
>limit. That's plain arithmetic. Even with six, most of the players will
>be neither in the current Test side nor among the 10-15 with serious claims
>to replace them;

There are a limited number of places in the Test side, and a limited
number of places on the immediate fringe of selection.

That merely says that they've identified the couple of dozen best
cricketers. It says no more about the quality of those not selected
than that at least in the selectors' minds, the ones actually selected
are a bit better.

We had the incident during the lockdown period where England
effectively had to pick their 3rd XI for white ball games against
Pakistan and they still won. I'd be unsurprised to find that there are
50 white ball players who could turn out for England without looking
out of place going by their performances in tournaments abroad.

I'd entirely agree that a similar situation nowhere near obtains in
England's current red ball set up, but it's possible that if you cull
the lower third of ability, what's left is sufficiently challenging to
generate it over the medium term.

I am /not/ trying to promote or chuck cold water on any particular
scheme for improving English cricket. But I am wary of saying that
there is only one possible answer to an interesting question. Some of
the answers may be horrid, but that doesn't mean they're impossible or
have no good points.

Cheers,

Mike

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