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aus+uk / uk.sport.cricket / Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

SubjectAuthor
* RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
+* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|+* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsHamish Laws
||+* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
|||`- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
||+* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|||`* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
||| `- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
||`* Re: RIP Andrew Symondsjack fredricks
|| +* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |`* Re: RIP Andrew Symondsjack fredricks
|| | `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |  +* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsNajeeb ybo
|| |  |`- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |  `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsDavid North
|| |   +* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
|| |   |+* Re: RIP Andrew Symondsmax.it
|| |   ||`* Re: RIP Andrew Symondsjack fredricks
|| |   || +- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsJohn Hall
|| |   || `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |   ||  `- Re: RIP Andrew Symondsjack fredricks
|| |   |`* Re: RIP Andrew Symondsalvey
|| |   | `- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |   `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |    `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsDavid North
|| |     +* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
|| |     |+- Re: RIP Andrew Symondsmax.it
|| |     |`* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsHamish Laws
|| |     | `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
|| |     |  `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsHamish Laws
|| |     |   `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
|| |     |    `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsHamish Laws
|| |     |     `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsDavid North
|| |     |      `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsHamish Laws
|| |     |       +- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |     |       `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsDavid North
|| |     |        `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |     |         `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsDavid North
|| |     |          +- Re: RIP Andrew Symondsjack fredricks
|| |     |          `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |     |           `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsNajeeb ybo
|| |     |            `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |     |             +* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsBrian DSouza
|| |     |             |+* Re: RIP Andrew Symondsmax.it
|| |     |             ||`- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
|| |     |             |+* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
|| |     |             ||`* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsAndy Leighton
|| |     |             || `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |     |             ||  `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsDavid North
|| |     |             ||   +* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |     |             ||   |`* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsDavid North
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|| |     |             ||   | |`* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsDavid North
|| |     |             ||   | | +- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |     |             ||   | | `* OT Rubbish thread continuanceMike Holmans
|| |     |             ||   | |  `* Re: OT Rubbish thread continuancemax.it
|| |     |             ||   | |   `- Re: OT Rubbish thread continuancemax.it
|| |     |             ||   | +- Re: RIP Andrew Symondsmax.it
|| |     |             ||   | `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsAndy Walker
|| |     |             ||   |  `- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |     |             ||   `- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
|| |     |             |+- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsDavid North
|| |     |             |`- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsHamish Laws
|| |     |             `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsDavid North
|| |     |              `- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
|| |     `* Re: RIP Andrew Symondsjack fredricks
|| |      `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |       `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsNasti Chestikov
|| |        +* Re: RIP Andrew Symondsjack fredricks
|| |        |`* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |        | `* Re: RIP Andrew Symondsjack fredricks
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|| |        |   `* Re: RIP Andrew Symondsjack fredricks
|| |        |    `- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| |        `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRichard Dixon
|| |         +* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsMike Holmans
|| |         |+- Re: RIP Andrew Symondsjack fredricks
|| |         |`- Re: RIP Andrew Symondsmax.it
|| |         `- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|| `- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|`* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRichard Dixon
| `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|  `* Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRichard Dixon
|   +- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
|   +- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsNasti Chestikov
|   `- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRH
+- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsRichard Dixon
+- Re: RIP Andrew SymondsJohn Hall
`- Re: RIP Andrew Symondsalvey

Pages:1234
Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<7ef098c3-7b92-4b85-8cba-b996b6e2cbf0n@googlegroups.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=20901&group=uk.sport.cricket#20901

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Fri, 20 May 2022 10:56 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:49:05 AM UTC+1, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:
> On 5/15/2022 3:38 AM, RH wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 11:19:22 AM UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:20:22 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:30:32 AM UTC+1, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >>>> Killed in a car crash.
> >>>>
> >>> Before Symonds opted for Australia rather than England or the Windies I think he was selected for an England A team which offer flushed out where his loyalties lay.. RH
> >> Really not the time
> >
> > The time for truth is always the time... RH
>
>
>
>
> What's in your LUNATIC racist brain are just your "personal emotions and
> garbage opinions".
>
> NOT truth.

" The subcontinental patient is desperate for attention, doctor..." RH

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<4cb45065-f5ff-4804-8b09-117148dbd8ddn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Sat, 21 May 2022 07:19 UTC

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:48:17 AM UTC+1, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 3:56 AM, RH wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:49:05 AM UTC+1, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:
> >> On 5/15/2022 3:38 AM, RH wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 11:19:22 AM UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:20:22 PM UTC+10, RH wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:30:32 AM UTC+1, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >>>>>> Killed in a car crash.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Before Symonds opted for Australia rather than England or the Windies I think he was selected for an England A team which offer flushed out where his loyalties lay.. RH
> >>>> Really not the time
> >>>
> >>> The time for truth is always the time... RH
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> What's in your LUNATIC racist brain are just your "personal emotions and
> >> garbage opinions".
> >>
> >> NOT truth.
> >
> > " The subcontinental patient is desperate for attention, doctor..." RH
> You fucking TYPICAL low IQ WASP clown,
>
> I remained ANONYMOUS my entire life.
>
> Which MEANS I prefer anonymity over publicity.
>
> But you are a FUCKING WASP, which means FACTS DON'T MATTER to you.
>
> Which is WHY, EVIL WASP DNA should be and must be FORCIBLY REFORMED,
> CIVILIZED and CIVILIZED for human species to live in peace and harmony.

"I'm afraid he is too far gone for any further treatment , nurse. Just make him as comfortable as possible... " RH

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<19a55a13-efbc-41c8-8e4b-567c77b183e0n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: hamish.l...@gmail.com (Hamish Laws)
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 by: Hamish Laws - Sat, 21 May 2022 07:40 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> >None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> available for England if selected.
>
> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> saying they're Australian.
>
> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
>
Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<068h8hds5h37cdkt5uup6h8fj88l3gru5h@4ax.com>

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 09:41:07 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Sat, 21 May 2022 08:41 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
<hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
>> available for England if selected.
>>
>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
>> saying they're Australian.
>>
>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
>>
>Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"

His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
while it remained in force.

In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases - eg Jacques Rudolph - the clause was
basically meaningless because they'd already played international
cricket and wouldn't qualify for selection until well after the county
contract was over unless they signed up for another two or three
years. Everyone knew it was a fiction, but it provided a source of
talent for counties who couldn't develop and keep enough their own.

I would guess that the village idiot is busy accusing Roy of all sorts
of devilish deceits and priding English cricket on having repelled the
interloper when the reality is that all the deceit, if you want to
call it that, was on the part of Gloucestershire CCC who wanted to
sign some ready-made talent and exploited a loophole in the overseas
player regs to do so. Mr Brainless would like to pretend that the ECB
foisted the Kolpaks on to unwilling counties who would have played 11
white men born within sight of the ground if they had had their
druthers when it was the ECB who had to come up with legal means of
restricting the flow which the counties were enthusiastically bringing
online.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<9f9a913a-85b3-412f-99cd-0204cd6fbafen@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: hamish.l...@gmail.com (Hamish Laws)
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 by: Hamish Laws - Sat, 21 May 2022 10:36 UTC

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> >> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> >> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> >> available for England if selected.
> >>
> >> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> >> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> >> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> >> saying they're Australian.
> >>
> >> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> >> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> >> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> >> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> >> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> >>
> >Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> while it remained in force.
>
> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases

Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 11:56:59 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Sat, 21 May 2022 10:56 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
<hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
>> >> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
>> >> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
>> >> available for England if selected.
>> >>
>> >> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
>> >> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
>> >> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
>> >> saying they're Australian.
>> >>
>> >> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
>> >> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
>> >> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
>> >> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
>> >> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
>> >>
>> >Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
>> while it remained in force.
>>
>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
>
>Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract

On further investigation, he was an overseas player, so he never
signed a Kolpak contract, never stated that he would play for England
if selected and did precisely none of the things that the village
idiot and congenital liar said. As usual, the village idiot has been
lying through his teeth throughout what is by now several dozen posts
if history is any guide.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: hamish.l...@gmail.com (Hamish Laws)
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 by: Hamish Laws - Sat, 21 May 2022 11:58 UTC

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> >> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> >> >> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> >> >> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> >> >> available for England if selected.
> >> >>
> >> >> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> >> >> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> >> >> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> >> >> saying they're Australian.
> >> >>
> >> >> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> >> >> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> >> >> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> >> >> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> >> >> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> >> >>
> >> >Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> >> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> >> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> >> while it remained in force.
> >>
> >> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> >
> >Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,

I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
Later he played for Kent, Lancashire and Surrey

It seems that the Kolpak case was in 2003 so there's no chance he was a Kolpak player early in his career.

>so he never
> signed a Kolpak contract, never stated that he would play for England
> if selected and did precisely none of the things that the village
> idiot and congenital liar said. As usual, the village idiot has been
> lying through his teeth throughout what is by now several dozen posts
> if history is any guide.

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 05:57:12 +0100
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 by: David North - Sun, 22 May 2022 04:57 UTC

On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
>>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
>>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
>>>>>> available for England if selected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
>>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
>>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
>>>>>> saying they're Australian.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
>>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
>>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
>>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
>>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
>>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
>>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
>>>> while it remained in force.
>>>>
>>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
>>>
>>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
>> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
>
> I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96

He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.

--
David North

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: hamish.l...@gmail.com (Hamish Laws)
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 by: Hamish Laws - Sun, 22 May 2022 12:51 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> >> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> >>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> >>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> >>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> >>>>>> available for England if selected.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> >>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> >>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> >>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> >>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> >>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> >>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> >>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> >>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> >>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> >>>> while it remained in force.
> >>>>
> >>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> >>>
> >>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> >> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> >
> > I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
>
which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Sun, 22 May 2022 13:00 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:51:21 PM UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > >> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > >>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > >>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> > >>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> > >>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> > >>>>>> available for England if selected.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> > >>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> > >>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> > >>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> > >>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> > >>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> > >>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> > >>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> > >>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> > >>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> > >>>> while it remained in force.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> > >>>
> > >>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> > >> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> > >
> > > I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> > He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> > to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> > not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> > Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
> >
> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...

Wriggl,y...wriggly...wriggly ... RH

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
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 by: David North - Mon, 23 May 2022 13:00 UTC

On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > >> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > >>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > >>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> > >>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> > >>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> > >>>>>> available for England if selected.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> > >>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> > >>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> > >>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> > >>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> > >>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> > >>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> > >>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> > >>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> > >>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> > >>>> while it remained in force.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> > >>>
> > >>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> > >> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> > >
> > > I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> > He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> > to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> > not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> > Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
> >
> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...

"At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."

https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story

I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<7e216a85-db62-45b3-be60-1cbb3685ec31n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Mon, 23 May 2022 15:07 UTC

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:02:41 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co..uk wrote:
> > > On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > >> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > >>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > >>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> > > >>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> > > >>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> > > >>>>>> available for England if selected.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> > > >>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> > > >>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> > > >>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> > > >>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> > > >>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> > > >>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> > > >>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> > > >>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> > > >>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> > > >>>> while it remained in force.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> > > >> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> > > >
> > > > I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> > > He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> > > to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> > > not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> > > Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
> > >
> > which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...
> "At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."
>
> https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story
>
> I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.

Which the little Toad did and only cam,e out for Oz when his bluff had been called... RH

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<jf3daaFnuooU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 07:46:34 +0100
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 by: David North - Tue, 24 May 2022 06:46 UTC

On 23/05/2022 16:07, RH wrote:
> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:02:41 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>>>> On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
>>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
>>>>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
>>>>>>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
>>>>>>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
>>>>>>>>>> available for England if selected.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
>>>>>>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
>>>>>>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
>>>>>>>>>> saying they're Australian.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
>>>>>>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
>>>>>>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
>>>>>>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
>>>>>>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
>>>>>>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
>>>>>>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
>>>>>>>> while it remained in force.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
>>>>>> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
>>>> He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
>>>> to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
>>>> not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
>>>> Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
>>>>
>>> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...
>> "At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."
>>
>> https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story
>>
>> I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.
>
> Which the little Toad did and only cam,e out for Oz when his bluff had been called... RH

The cricxtasy.com article that you quoted suggests that he signed the
1996 contract several months _after_ declining selection for England A:

"After rejecting a chance to play for England, Symonds returned to
feature Queensland but failed to make it to the Australia team. In
disappointment, Andrew Symonds signed a three-year contract with
Gloucestershire which included the clause that he will play for England
if selected."

He was picked for England A "a week after being named the Cricket
Writers’ Club Young Cricketer of the Year", which suggests that it was
after the end of the 1995 season, so his 1995 contract would presumably
no longer have been in force.

Also, England A wasn't "the national team", so if that's what the clause
amounted to, _technically_ the bluff was never called.

--
David North

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: jzfredri...@gmail.com (jack fredricks)
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 by: jack fredricks - Tue, 24 May 2022 09:48 UTC

This is all getting so complex.
I'm just going to return to my default "If RH says it, it's wrong".

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<a59cdef9-3a9c-4e68-97db-6466ff6a6119n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Tue, 24 May 2022 10:44 UTC

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:46:37 AM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 23/05/2022 16:07, RH wrote:
> > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:02:41 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> >> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> >>>> On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> >>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> >>>>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> >>>>>>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> >>>>>>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> >>>>>>>>>> available for England if selected.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> >>>>>>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> >>>>>>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> >>>>>>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> >>>>>>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> >>>>>>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> >>>>>>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> >>>>>>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> >>>>>>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> >>>>>>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> >>>>>>>> while it remained in force.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> >>>>>> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> >>>> He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> >>>> to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> >>>> not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> >>>> Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
> >>>>
> >>> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...
> >> "At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."
> >>
> >> https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story
> >>
> >> I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.
> >
> > Which the little Toad did and only cam,e out for Oz when his bluff had been called... RH
> The cricxtasy.com article that you quoted suggests that he signed the
> 1996 contract several months _after_ declining selection for England A:
>
> "After rejecting a chance to play for England, Symonds returned to
> feature Queensland but failed to make it to the Australia team. In
> disappointment, Andrew Symonds signed a three-year contract with
> Gloucestershire which included the clause that he will play for England
> if selected."
>
> He was picked for England A "a week after being named the Cricket
> Writers’ Club Young Cricketer of the Year", which suggests that it was
> after the end of the 1995 season, so his 1995 contract would presumably
> no longer have been in force.
>
> Also, England A wasn't "the national team", so if that's what the clause
> amounted to, _technically_ the bluff was never called.
>
> --
> David North

Your argument does not make sense because it was his selection for the England A team that called his bluff ,ie, he came out for Oz when selected ... RH

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: najeeb...@gmail.com (Najeeb ybo)
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 by: Najeeb ybo - Tue, 24 May 2022 11:58 UTC

On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 11:44:44 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:46:37 AM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > On 23/05/2022 16:07, RH wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:02:41 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > >>>> On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > >>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > >>>>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> > >>>>>>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> > >>>>>>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> > >>>>>>>>>> available for England if selected.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> > >>>>>>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> > >>>>>>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> > >>>>>>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> > >>>>>>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> > >>>>>>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> > >>>>>>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> > >>>>>>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> > >>>>>>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> > >>>>>>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> > >>>>>>>> while it remained in force.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> > >>>>>> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> > >>>> He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> > >>>> to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> > >>>> not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> > >>>> Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
> > >>>>
> > >>> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...
> > >> "At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."
> > >>
> > >> https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story
> > >>
> > >> I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.
> > >
> > > Which the little Toad did and only cam,e out for Oz when his bluff had been called... RH
> > The cricxtasy.com article that you quoted suggests that he signed the
> > 1996 contract several months _after_ declining selection for England A:
> >
> > "After rejecting a chance to play for England, Symonds returned to
> > feature Queensland but failed to make it to the Australia team. In
> > disappointment, Andrew Symonds signed a three-year contract with
> > Gloucestershire which included the clause that he will play for England
> > if selected."
> >
> > He was picked for England A "a week after being named the Cricket
> > Writers’ Club Young Cricketer of the Year", which suggests that it was
> > after the end of the 1995 season, so his 1995 contract would presumably
> > no longer have been in force.
> >
> > Also, England A wasn't "the national team", so if that's what the clause
> > amounted to, _technically_ the bluff was never called.
> >
> > --
> > David North

> Your argument does not make sense because it was his selection for the England A team that called his bluff ,ie, he came out for Oz when selected .... RH

His argument makes perfect sense, as long as you aren't stupid enough to assume a conclusion before you examine the evidence.

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: anywhere...@gmail.com (RH)
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 by: RH - Tue, 24 May 2022 15:22 UTC

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 12:58:04 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 11:44:44 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:46:37 AM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co..uk wrote:
> > > On 23/05/2022 16:07, RH wrote:
> > > > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:02:41 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet..co.uk wrote:
> > > >> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > >>>> On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > > >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > >>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > >>>>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> > > >>>>>>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> > > >>>>>>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> > > >>>>>>>>>> available for England if selected.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> > > >>>>>>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> > > >>>>>>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> > > >>>>>>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> > > >>>>>>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> > > >>>>>>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> > > >>>>>>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> > > >>>>>>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> > > >>>>>>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> > > >>>>>>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> > > >>>>>>>> while it remained in force.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> > > >>>>>> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> > > >>>> He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> > > >>>> to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> > > >>>> not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> > > >>>> Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it....
> > > >> "At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."
> > > >>
> > > >> https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.
> > > >
> > > > Which the little Toad did and only cam,e out for Oz when his bluff had been called... RH
> > > The cricxtasy.com article that you quoted suggests that he signed the
> > > 1996 contract several months _after_ declining selection for England A:
> > >
> > > "After rejecting a chance to play for England, Symonds returned to
> > > feature Queensland but failed to make it to the Australia team. In
> > > disappointment, Andrew Symonds signed a three-year contract with
> > > Gloucestershire which included the clause that he will play for England
> > > if selected."
> > >
> > > He was picked for England A "a week after being named the Cricket
> > > Writers’ Club Young Cricketer of the Year", which suggests that it was
> > > after the end of the 1995 season, so his 1995 contract would presumably
> > > no longer have been in force.
> > >
> > > Also, England A wasn't "the national team", so if that's what the clause
> > > amounted to, _technically_ the bluff was never called.
> > >
> > > --
> > > David North
>
> > Your argument does not make sense because it was his selection for the England A team that called his bluff ,ie, he came out for Oz when selected .... RH
> His argument makes perfect sense, as long as you aren't stupid enough to assume a conclusion before you examine the evidence.

OK. Explain the logic of a 70 million population (UK) compared with a 25 million population (Oz) not being able to produce 3 times the sides in their domestic FC cricket .Of course the great difference is the UK allows 50 or more foreigners in their domestic competition while Oz allows virtually none. RH

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: themight...@gmail.com (Brian DSouza)
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 by: Brian DSouza - Wed, 25 May 2022 10:16 UTC

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 11:22:58 AM UTC-4, RH wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 12:58:04 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 11:44:44 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:46:37 AM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > On 23/05/2022 16:07, RH wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:02:41 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > >> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > >>>> On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > > > >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > > >>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > > >>>>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> available for England if selected.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> > > > >>>>>>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> > > > >>>>>>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> > > > >>>>>>>> while it remained in force.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> > > > >>>>>> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> > > > >>>> He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> > > > >>>> to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> > > > >>>> not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> > > > >>>> Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...
> > > > >> "At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which the little Toad did and only cam,e out for Oz when his bluff had been called... RH
> > > > The cricxtasy.com article that you quoted suggests that he signed the
> > > > 1996 contract several months _after_ declining selection for England A:
> > > >
> > > > "After rejecting a chance to play for England, Symonds returned to
> > > > feature Queensland but failed to make it to the Australia team. In
> > > > disappointment, Andrew Symonds signed a three-year contract with
> > > > Gloucestershire which included the clause that he will play for England
> > > > if selected."
> > > >
> > > > He was picked for England A "a week after being named the Cricket
> > > > Writers’ Club Young Cricketer of the Year", which suggests that it was
> > > > after the end of the 1995 season, so his 1995 contract would presumably
> > > > no longer have been in force.
> > > >
> > > > Also, England A wasn't "the national team", so if that's what the clause
> > > > amounted to, _technically_ the bluff was never called.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > David North
> >
> > > Your argument does not make sense because it was his selection for the England A team that called his bluff ,ie, he came out for Oz when selected ... RH
> > His argument makes perfect sense, as long as you aren't stupid enough to assume a conclusion before you examine the evidence.
> OK. Explain the logic of a 70 million population (UK) compared with a 25 million population (Oz) not being able to produce 3 times the sides in their domestic FC cricket .Of course the great difference is the UK allows 50 or more foreigners in their domestic competition while Oz allows virtually none. RH

Does CA not allow overseas players, or is it simply scheduling, pay and competition?

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
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 by: max.it - Wed, 25 May 2022 11:32 UTC

On Wed, 25 May 2022 03:16:50 -0700 (PDT), Brian DSouza
<themightyatlast@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 11:22:58 AM UTC-4, RH wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 12:58:04 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 11:44:44 UTC+1, RH wrote:
>> > > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:46:37 AM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>> > > > On 23/05/2022 16:07, RH wrote:
>> > > > > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:02:41 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>> > > > >> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > >>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>> > > > >>>> On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
>> > > > >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
>> > > > >>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
>> > > > >>>>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> available for England if selected.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> saying they're Australian.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
>> > > > >>>>>>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
>> > > > >>>>>>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
>> > > > >>>>>>>> while it remained in force.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
>> > > > >>>>>> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>> I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
>> > > > >>>> He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
>> > > > >>>> to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
>> > > > >>>> not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
>> > > > >>>> Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...
>> > > > >> "At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Which the little Toad did and only cam,e out for Oz when his bluff had been called... RH
>> > > > The cricxtasy.com article that you quoted suggests that he signed the
>> > > > 1996 contract several months _after_ declining selection for England A:
>> > > >
>> > > > "After rejecting a chance to play for England, Symonds returned to
>> > > > feature Queensland but failed to make it to the Australia team. In
>> > > > disappointment, Andrew Symonds signed a three-year contract with
>> > > > Gloucestershire which included the clause that he will play for England
>> > > > if selected."
>> > > >
>> > > > He was picked for England A "a week after being named the Cricket
>> > > > Writers’ Club Young Cricketer of the Year", which suggests that it was
>> > > > after the end of the 1995 season, so his 1995 contract would presumably
>> > > > no longer have been in force.
>> > > >
>> > > > Also, England A wasn't "the national team", so if that's what the clause
>> > > > amounted to, _technically_ the bluff was never called.
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > David North
>> >
>> > > Your argument does not make sense because it was his selection for the England A team that called his bluff ,ie, he came out for Oz when selected ... RH
>> > His argument makes perfect sense, as long as you aren't stupid enough to assume a conclusion before you examine the evidence.
>> OK. Explain the logic of a 70 million population (UK) compared with a 25 million population (Oz) not being able to produce 3 times the sides in their domestic FC cricket .Of course the great difference is the UK allows 50 or more foreigners in their domestic competition while Oz allows virtually none. RH
>
>Does CA not allow overseas players, or is it simply scheduling, pay and competition?

I think they could only play in the sheffield shield and couldn't play
in the CC or any other country's domestic competition.
That rule changed when Sam Robinson qualified for England with his
dual passport. Apparently the SS pay is poor and overseas players were
mostly Zimbabweans.

I see Henderson still doesn't understand that it's the concentration
of talent in a competition that determines it's value and not the
amount of teams in it or the nationality of the players. It's almost
as if he sits and dreams of innovative was to fuck up the English
cricket system.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<gq4s8h5a1h0d2lqc899eua63mfqpl1uc1n@4ax.com>

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
Date: Wed, 25 May 2022 12:38:02 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Wed, 25 May 2022 11:38 UTC

On Wed, 25 May 2022 03:16:50 -0700 (PDT), Brian DSouza
<themightyatlast@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 11:22:58 AM UTC-4, RH wrote:

>> OK. Explain the logic of a 70 million population (UK) compared with a 25 million population (Oz) not being able to produce 3 times the sides in their domestic FC cricket .Of course the great difference is the UK allows 50 or more foreigners in their domestic competition while Oz allows virtually none. RH
>
>Does CA not allow overseas players, or is it simply scheduling, pay and competition?

I'll leave an Australian to comment on the Shield, although one might
point out that the BBL employs lots of English players, which
undermines the village idiot's point a little.

What's more interesting is his quoting the population of the United
Kingdom being 70 million whereas when he drivels his usual bollocks,
he doesn't even accept a slice of those born and bred in England, let
alone those from the other three nations, as being English.

Once you've cut the population to those the moron considers
"unequivocally English", there are probably only about 42m left, which
is less than twice the population of Australia.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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From: spa...@jackalope.uk (Mike Holmans)
Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
Date: Wed, 25 May 2022 12:40:00 +0100
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 by: Mike Holmans - Wed, 25 May 2022 11:40 UTC

On Wed, 25 May 2022 12:32:04 +0100, max.it <max@tea.time> wrote:

>I see Henderson still doesn't understand that it's the concentration
>of talent in a competition that determines it's value and not the
>amount of teams in it or the nationality of the players. It's almost
>as if he sits and dreams of innovative was to fuck up the English
>cricket system.

Since destroying English cricket is his main obsession, what else
would you expect him to do?

Cheers,

Mike

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<817f0262-ef27-4cf8-af69-9af48f3bd8f7n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
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 by: David North - Wed, 25 May 2022 12:54 UTC

On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 16:22:58 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 12:58:04 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 11:44:44 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:46:37 AM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > On 23/05/2022 16:07, RH wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:02:41 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > >> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > >>>> On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > > > >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > > >>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > > >>>>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> available for England if selected.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English. But it is hard
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> > > > >>>>>>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> > > > >>>>>>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> > > > >>>>>>>> while it remained in force.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> > > > >>>>>> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> > > > >>>> He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> > > > >>>> to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> > > > >>>> not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> > > > >>>> Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...
> > > > >> "At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which the little Toad did and only cam,e out for Oz when his bluff had been called... RH
> > > > The cricxtasy.com article that you quoted suggests that he signed the
> > > > 1996 contract several months _after_ declining selection for England A:
> > > >
> > > > "After rejecting a chance to play for England, Symonds returned to
> > > > feature Queensland but failed to make it to the Australia team. In
> > > > disappointment, Andrew Symonds signed a three-year contract with
> > > > Gloucestershire which included the clause that he will play for England
> > > > if selected."
> > > >
> > > > He was picked for England A "a week after being named the Cricket
> > > > Writers’ Club Young Cricketer of the Year", which suggests that it was
> > > > after the end of the 1995 season, so his 1995 contract would presumably
> > > > no longer have been in force.
> > > >
> > > > Also, England A wasn't "the national team", so if that's what the clause
> > > > amounted to, _technically_ the bluff was never called.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > David North
> >
> > > Your argument does not make sense because it was his selection for the England A team that called his bluff ,ie, he came out for Oz when selected ... RH
> > His argument makes perfect sense, as long as you aren't stupid enough to assume a conclusion before you examine the evidence.
> OK. Explain the logic of a 70 million population (UK) compared with a 25 million population (Oz) not being able to produce 3 times the sides in their domestic FC cricket .Of course the great difference is the UK allows 50 or more foreigners in their domestic competition while Oz allows virtually none. RH

If you're reading a post on Google Groups, you might want to click those three dots to show the quoted text and check what the discussion was actually about (in this case Symonds' bluffing). That way you might avoid veering off into a completely different topic.

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

<453e13f1-e8ef-48b3-8559-e4dc637d9464n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk (David North)
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 by: David North - Wed, 25 May 2022 12:59 UTC

On Wednesday, 25 May 2022 at 11:16:51 UTC+1, themigh...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 11:22:58 AM UTC-4, RH wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 12:58:04 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 11:44:44 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:46:37 AM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > On 23/05/2022 16:07, RH wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:02:41 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > >> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > > > > >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > > > >>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > > > >>>>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> available for England if selected.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English.. But it is hard
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> > > > > >>>>>>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> > > > > >>>>>>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> > > > > >>>>>>>> while it remained in force.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> > > > > >>>>>> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> > > > > >>>> He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> > > > > >>>> to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> > > > > >>>> not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> > > > > >>>> Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...
> > > > > >> "At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which the little Toad did and only cam,e out for Oz when his bluff had been called... RH
> > > > > The cricxtasy.com article that you quoted suggests that he signed the
> > > > > 1996 contract several months _after_ declining selection for England A:
> > > > >
> > > > > "After rejecting a chance to play for England, Symonds returned to
> > > > > feature Queensland but failed to make it to the Australia team. In
> > > > > disappointment, Andrew Symonds signed a three-year contract with
> > > > > Gloucestershire which included the clause that he will play for England
> > > > > if selected."
> > > > >
> > > > > He was picked for England A "a week after being named the Cricket
> > > > > Writers’ Club Young Cricketer of the Year", which suggests that it was
> > > > > after the end of the 1995 season, so his 1995 contract would presumably
> > > > > no longer have been in force.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, England A wasn't "the national team", so if that's what the clause
> > > > > amounted to, _technically_ the bluff was never called.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > David North
> > >
> > > > Your argument does not make sense because it was his selection for the England A team that called his bluff ,ie, he came out for Oz when selected ... RH
> > > His argument makes perfect sense, as long as you aren't stupid enough to assume a conclusion before you examine the evidence.
> > OK. Explain the logic of a 70 million population (UK) compared with a 25 million population (Oz) not being able to produce 3 times the sides in their domestic FC cricket .Of course the great difference is the UK allows 50 or more foreigners in their domestic competition while Oz allows virtually none. RH
> Does CA not allow overseas players, or is it simply scheduling, pay and competition?

They are not banned - e.g. Mason Crane played a match for NSW in 2016/17 - so it's the latter.

Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
From: hamish.l...@gmail.com (Hamish Laws)
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 by: Hamish Laws - Wed, 25 May 2022 13:22 UTC

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 8:16:51 PM UTC+10, themigh...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 11:22:58 AM UTC-4, RH wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 12:58:04 PM UTC+1, Najeeb ybo wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 11:44:44 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 7:46:37 AM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > On 23/05/2022 16:07, RH wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:02:41 PM UTC+1, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > >> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 13:51:21 UTC+1, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:57:14 PM UTC+10, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On 21/05/2022 12:58, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > > > > >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:57:02 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > > > >>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:41:09 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> > > > > >>>>>>>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:12 PM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 05:54:48 -0700 (PDT), David North
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> <nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> None of that says that he pretended to be English or called himself English. It does, however, say that "he declared that his allegiances lay with Australia" after one season of county cricket, not after "he had been playing in England for some years" as you claimed.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> That depends on how you take the Kolpak clause about making oneself
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> available for England if selected.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Saying that you will while having no intention of doing so if actually
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> selected is at least arguably pretending to be English.. But it is hard
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> to argue that someone is pretending to be English when they keep
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> saying they're Australian.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> However, saying that you don't particularly want to play for England
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> has no effect at all on whether you are eligible for selection because
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> you fit the criteria. You can't pretend to be eligible for selection:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> you either are or you aren't, so unless you're busy forging birth
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> certificates, you have no control over it at all.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Personally I'm not convinced that Symonds would have looked further into the contract than "you'll be paid X to play country cricket for 3 years"
> > > > > >>>>>>>> His lawyer at least would have been remiss if he didn't inform his
> > > > > >>>>>>>> client that the contract meant that he couldn't play for Australia
> > > > > >>>>>>>> while it remained in force.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> In a lot of the Kolpaks' cases
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>> Was Symonds a Kolpak player? He was born in the UK, so I thought he was just on a standard county contract
> > > > > >>>>>> On further investigation, he was an overseas player,
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> I think his first stint in County Cricket for Gloucestershire was as an England qualified player, he turned down a spot in the England A team at the end of 95 and must have played for them as an overseas player in 96
> > > > > >>>> He was still England-qualified in 1996. From Wisden 1997: "His decision
> > > > > >>>> to play for Australia A in the winter made it virtually certain he would
> > > > > >>>> not return, as it meant the loss of his England qualification." Courtney
> > > > > >>>> Walsh was Gloucestershire's one allowed overseas player.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> which suggests that his contract didn't say he'd have to play for England teams if selected otherwise he wouldn't have been able to play it...
> > > > > >> "At the start of the [1995] season all England-qualified players had signed a contract which included a new clause stating that they had to make themselves available for the national team ..."
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> https://wisden.com/stories/features/legend-of-roy-the-andrew-symonds-story
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I'm assuming that that wasn't a one-off, and that anyone signing a new contract for 1996, which apparently included Symonds, would have had to agree to the same clause.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which the little Toad did and only cam,e out for Oz when his bluff had been called... RH
> > > > > The cricxtasy.com article that you quoted suggests that he signed the
> > > > > 1996 contract several months _after_ declining selection for England A:
> > > > >
> > > > > "After rejecting a chance to play for England, Symonds returned to
> > > > > feature Queensland but failed to make it to the Australia team. In
> > > > > disappointment, Andrew Symonds signed a three-year contract with
> > > > > Gloucestershire which included the clause that he will play for England
> > > > > if selected."
> > > > >
> > > > > He was picked for England A "a week after being named the Cricket
> > > > > Writers’ Club Young Cricketer of the Year", which suggests that it was
> > > > > after the end of the 1995 season, so his 1995 contract would presumably
> > > > > no longer have been in force.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, England A wasn't "the national team", so if that's what the clause
> > > > > amounted to, _technically_ the bluff was never called.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > David North
> > >
> > > > Your argument does not make sense because it was his selection for the England A team that called his bluff ,ie, he came out for Oz when selected ... RH
> > > His argument makes perfect sense, as long as you aren't stupid enough to assume a conclusion before you examine the evidence.
> > OK. Explain the logic of a 70 million population (UK) compared with a 25 million population (Oz) not being able to produce 3 times the sides in their domestic FC cricket .Of course the great difference is the UK allows 50 or more foreigners in their domestic competition while Oz allows virtually none. RH
> Does CA not allow overseas players, or is it simply scheduling, pay and competition?

They're allowed but not common, off the top of my head we've had Sobers, Imran Khan, Michael Holding, Ian Botham, Richard Hadlee, Barry Richards, Hick, Kepler Wessels moved out here during WSC and played grade cricket and got picked for the Shield (then got a contract for WSC)

I think that it's pretty rare that the states would give somebody a contract and guarantee them a game unless they're established international players and there's not much time international players have free now. I think a few international players have said they came out and played grade cricket early in their careers


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Re: RIP Andrew Symonds

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From: and...@azaal.plus.com (Andy Leighton)
Subject: Re: RIP Andrew Symonds
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 by: Andy Leighton - Wed, 25 May 2022 13:32 UTC

On Wed, 25 May 2022 12:38:02 +0100, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2022 03:16:50 -0700 (PDT), Brian DSouza
><themightyatlast@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 11:22:58 AM UTC-4, RH wrote:
>
>>> OK. Explain the logic of a 70 million population (UK) compared with a 25 million population (Oz) not being able to produce 3 times the sides in their domestic FC cricket .Of course the great difference is the UK allows 50 or more foreigners in their domestic competition while Oz allows virtually none. RH
>>
>>Does CA not allow overseas players, or is it simply scheduling, pay and competition?
>
> I'll leave an Australian to comment on the Shield, although one might
> point out that the BBL employs lots of English players, which
> undermines the village idiot's point a little.
>
> What's more interesting is his quoting the population of the United
> Kingdom being 70 million whereas when he drivels his usual bollocks,

Actually the UK is 67.2m. England+Wales 59.1m. Australia 25.7m.
So a proportionate ratio would be 2.3

Also Australia's age demographics is a bit different to ours. There is a
higher percentage of younger Australians than younger English people, so
maybe it should be lower that that.

> he doesn't even accept a slice of those born and bred in England, let
> alone those from the other three nations, as being English.

Quite.

--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
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