Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <s7nu5e$sb2$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:44:46 on Sat, 15 May
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> From today’s Times
>>>
>>> “Ministers will pledge to introduce flexible rail season tickets,
>>
>> Oh no not again! Groundhog day.
>>
>> Actually some of the TOCs do now have the flexi-seasons promised for the
>> Spring (in practice, end-of-lockdown would be a good time for them to be
>> fully rolled out).
>>
>> I went on my first train trip for 18 months yesterday (partly to
>> experiment with the m-ticketing). The first leg had fewer than one
>> passenger per carriage and left the station 30 seconds early (is that
>> allowed??) coming back was a bit busier though - perhaps half a dozen
>> per carriage.
>>
>>> pay-as-you-go travel and enhanced compensation for delays as part of the
>>> biggest reform of the railway since privatisation almost three decades ago.
>> ...
>>> Companies will be told to introduce flexible season tickets that can be
>>> used on two or three days a week — rather than the costlier seven-day
>>> passes — to appeal to the increased numbers of people working from home for
>>> part of the week. It is understood that they will be introduced after the
>>> summer.
>>
>> Oops, there go the goalposts! I do hope this isn't a signal to lagging
>> TOCs not to announce any more flexi-season plans if they haven't
>> already. (for example Brighton-London has been discussed here in the
>> past)
>>
>>> Ministers will also pledge to introducing contactless pay-as-you-go train
>>> travel in all towns and cities,
>>
>> Why should villages miss out? Or is this something to do with not being
>> bothered to install validators at village stations? (I wonder what
>> happens if you board in a town and get off at a village, and what will
>> they set the unresolved trip maximum fare at.)
>>
>> Anyway, enquiring minds will want to know if this contactless thing is
>> ITSO, Visa/Mastercard, Apple|Google Pay on a phone, or something else.
>>
>> No dates specified I see (despite this also being a pledge made by
>> Grayling in 2017, with delivery by 2018) <ho hum, Tumbleweed time>
>>
>>> The white paper will be modelled on a long-awaited report from Keith
>>> Williams, the former chief executive of British Airways, who was
>>> commissioned to lead an overhaul of the railways in 2018.
>> ...
>>> The report’s planned release in autumn 2019 was delayed by the general
>>> election and the pandemic.
>>
>> Are we *still* waiting?
>
> Supposedly it finally will be released soon, but it's now become the
> Shapps-Williams report. Presumably that means it's really a DfT product,
> with some Williams seasoning.
>
>>
>>> bringing track and train back together under one new body with day-to-day
>>> independence from the DfT. Though it falls short of full renationalisation,
>>> it signals radical change for the railway.”
>>
>> Genuine question: will this include Wales as well as England? I suspect
>> confiscating Scotrail from Holyrood might be seen as provocation.
>
> I'm pretty sure transport is a devolved responsibility, so this will only
> apply in England, plus on cros-border services operated by English
> concessions.

Given the fuss there’s been over the repatriation of powers from Brussels
to Westminster rather than to Holyrood or Cardiff, and similar wrangling
over direct spending by Westminster in devolved areas during the COVID
crisis, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were at least an attempt to take
control throughout the whole UK.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <s7nu5e$sb2$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:44:46 on Sat, 15 May
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> From today’s Times
>>>>
>>>> “Ministers will pledge to introduce flexible rail season tickets,
>>>
>>> Oh no not again! Groundhog day.
>>>
>>> Actually some of the TOCs do now have the flexi-seasons promised for the
>>> Spring (in practice, end-of-lockdown would be a good time for them to be
>>> fully rolled out).
>>>
>>> I went on my first train trip for 18 months yesterday (partly to
>>> experiment with the m-ticketing). The first leg had fewer than one
>>> passenger per carriage and left the station 30 seconds early (is that
>>> allowed??) coming back was a bit busier though - perhaps half a dozen
>>> per carriage.
>>>
>>>> pay-as-you-go travel and enhanced compensation for delays as part of the
>>>> biggest reform of the railway since privatisation almost three decades ago.
>>> ...
>>>> Companies will be told to introduce flexible season tickets that can be
>>>> used on two or three days a week — rather than the costlier seven-day
>>>> passes — to appeal to the increased numbers of people working from home for
>>>> part of the week. It is understood that they will be introduced after the
>>>> summer.
>>>
>>> Oops, there go the goalposts! I do hope this isn't a signal to lagging
>>> TOCs not to announce any more flexi-season plans if they haven't
>>> already. (for example Brighton-London has been discussed here in the
>>> past)
>>>
>>>> Ministers will also pledge to introducing contactless pay-as-you-go train
>>>> travel in all towns and cities,
>>>
>>> Why should villages miss out? Or is this something to do with not being
>>> bothered to install validators at village stations? (I wonder what
>>> happens if you board in a town and get off at a village, and what will
>>> they set the unresolved trip maximum fare at.)
>>>
>>> Anyway, enquiring minds will want to know if this contactless thing is
>>> ITSO, Visa/Mastercard, Apple|Google Pay on a phone, or something else.
>>>
>>> No dates specified I see (despite this also being a pledge made by
>>> Grayling in 2017, with delivery by 2018) <ho hum, Tumbleweed time>
>>>
>>>> The white paper will be modelled on a long-awaited report from Keith
>>>> Williams, the former chief executive of British Airways, who was
>>>> commissioned to lead an overhaul of the railways in 2018.
>>> ...
>>>> The report’s planned release in autumn 2019 was delayed by the general
>>>> election and the pandemic.
>>>
>>> Are we *still* waiting?
>>
>> Supposedly it finally will be released soon, but it's now become the
>> Shapps-Williams report. Presumably that means it's really a DfT product,
>> with some Williams seasoning.
>>
>>>
>>>> bringing track and train back together under one new body with day-to-day
>>>> independence from the DfT. Though it falls short of full renationalisation,
>>>> it signals radical change for the railway.”
>>>
>>> Genuine question: will this include Wales as well as England? I suspect
>>> confiscating Scotrail from Holyrood might be seen as provocation.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure transport is a devolved responsibility, so this will only
>> apply in England, plus on cros-border services operated by English
>> concessions.
>
> Given the fuss there’s been over the repatriation of powers from Brussels
> to Westminster rather than to Holyrood or Cardiff, and similar wrangling
> over direct spending by Westminster in devolved areas during the COVID
> crisis, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were at least an attempt to take
> control throughout the whole UK.

Haven't most repatriated powers actually been devolved? And is there any
history of previously devolved powers being taken back?

In effect, England is now simply following what's already happened in the
developed administrations.

On Tue, 25 May 2021 20:18:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <s7nu5e$sb2$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:44:46 on Sat, 15 May
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> From today’s Times
>>>>>
>>>>> “Ministers will pledge to introduce flexible rail season tickets,
>>>>
>>>> Oh no not again! Groundhog day.
>>>>
>>>> Actually some of the TOCs do now have the flexi-seasons promised for the
>>>> Spring (in practice, end-of-lockdown would be a good time for them to be
>>>> fully rolled out).
>>>>
>>>> I went on my first train trip for 18 months yesterday (partly to
>>>> experiment with the m-ticketing). The first leg had fewer than one
>>>> passenger per carriage and left the station 30 seconds early (is that
>>>> allowed??) coming back was a bit busier though - perhaps half a dozen
>>>> per carriage.
>>>>
>>>>> pay-as-you-go travel and enhanced compensation for delays as part of the
>>>>> biggest reform of the railway since privatisation almost three decades ago.
>>>> ...
>>>>> Companies will be told to introduce flexible season tickets that can be
>>>>> used on two or three days a week — rather than the costlier seven-day
>>>>> passes — to appeal to the increased numbers of people working from home for
>>>>> part of the week. It is understood that they will be introduced after the
>>>>> summer.
>>>>
>>>> Oops, there go the goalposts! I do hope this isn't a signal to lagging
>>>> TOCs not to announce any more flexi-season plans if they haven't
>>>> already. (for example Brighton-London has been discussed here in the
>>>> past)
>>>>
>>>>> Ministers will also pledge to introducing contactless pay-as-you-go train
>>>>> travel in all towns and cities,
>>>>
>>>> Why should villages miss out? Or is this something to do with not being
>>>> bothered to install validators at village stations? (I wonder what
>>>> happens if you board in a town and get off at a village, and what will
>>>> they set the unresolved trip maximum fare at.)
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, enquiring minds will want to know if this contactless thing is
>>>> ITSO, Visa/Mastercard, Apple|Google Pay on a phone, or something else.
>>>>
>>>> No dates specified I see (despite this also being a pledge made by
>>>> Grayling in 2017, with delivery by 2018) <ho hum, Tumbleweed time>
>>>>
>>>>> The white paper will be modelled on a long-awaited report from Keith
>>>>> Williams, the former chief executive of British Airways, who was
>>>>> commissioned to lead an overhaul of the railways in 2018.
>>>> ...
>>>>> The report’s planned release in autumn 2019 was delayed by the general
>>>>> election and the pandemic.
>>>>
>>>> Are we *still* waiting?
>>>
>>> Supposedly it finally will be released soon, but it's now become the
>>> Shapps-Williams report. Presumably that means it's really a DfT product,
>>> with some Williams seasoning.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> bringing track and train back together under one new body with day-to-day
>>>>> independence from the DfT. Though it falls short of full renationalisation,
>>>>> it signals radical change for the railway.”
>>>>
>>>> Genuine question: will this include Wales as well as England? I suspect
>>>> confiscating Scotrail from Holyrood might be seen as provocation.
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure transport is a devolved responsibility, so this will only
>>> apply in England, plus on cros-border services operated by English
>>> concessions.
>>
>> Given the fuss there’s been over the repatriation of powers from Brussels
>> to Westminster rather than to Holyrood or Cardiff, and similar wrangling
>> over direct spending by Westminster in devolved areas during the COVID
>> crisis, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were at least an attempt to take
>> control throughout the whole UK.
>
>Haven't most repatriated powers actually been devolved?
>
Apparently not so:-
"In 2018, the Supreme Court ruled that the passing of the European
Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 prevented the Scottish government enacting
its own legislation to close post-Brexit gaps in the law."
[https://www.newlawjournal.co.uk/content/brexit-retained-devolved-eu-law]

(The first of two sentences which aren't paywalled)

"UK Government publishes list of 24 devolved powers it wants to keep
control of after Brexit"
https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,uk-government-publishes-list-of-24-devolved-powers-it-wants-to-keep-control-of-after-brexit_8454.htm

>And is there any
>history of previously devolved powers being taken back?
>
There are examples of Westminster dealing in supposedly devolved
matters :-
https://www.gov.scot/news/devolution-being-fundamentally-undermined/
"One example is the UK Government administered Levelling Up Fund for
infrastructure projects, which is bypassing any Scottish Parliament
involvement in around £400 million of expected consequential funding.

Additionally UK Government Ministers now have the power to extend to
Scotland’s NHS the controversial market access principles that the Act
introduces."

>In effect, England is now simply following what's already happened in the
>developed administrations.

In message <s8jm31$b3c$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:18:42 on Tue, 25 May
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>> Given the fuss there’s been over the repatriation of powers from Brussels
>> to Westminster rather than to Holyrood or Cardiff, and similar wrangling
>> over direct spending by Westminster in devolved areas during the COVID
>> crisis, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were at least an attempt to take
>> control throughout the whole UK.
>
>Haven't most repatriated powers actually been devolved? And is there any
>history of previously devolved powers being taken back?

One issue I don't see discussed much is agricultural policy, which is
devolved, but has a significant impact on the content of Trade
Agreements (and is one reason why they should go through a domestic
ratification process rather than apparently being put into force right
away). The devolved governments could have their say then, even if they
really weren't involved in the original negotiations.

That ratification process didn't appear to happen in Nov/Dec 2020 when
Liz Truss was rushing various rollover deals through. Of course, if
those deals were inevitably identical to the EU deals, and no-one was
expecting them to be susceptible to the slightest change, then input
from the devolved governments was moot. But there's still a due process
to be followed!

On the other hand, if the alternative to a 100% rollover deal was a "no
deal", and was for some reason much more acceptable to the devolved
governments [the EU deal being something they always hated], then
perhaps that should have been available as an option.

Fast forward to the Australian Trade Deal, and a lot of the quibbling is
coming from eg Welsh sheep farmers. I wonder how much input the Welsh
government is allowed by Westminster on this topic.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <s8jm31$b3c$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:18:42 on Tue, 25 May
> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> Given the fuss there’s been over the repatriation of powers from Brussels
>>> to Westminster rather than to Holyrood or Cardiff, and similar wrangling
>>> over direct spending by Westminster in devolved areas during the COVID
>>> crisis, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were at least an attempt to take
>>> control throughout the whole UK.
>>
>> Haven't most repatriated powers actually been devolved? And is there any
>> history of previously devolved powers being taken back?
>
> One issue I don't see discussed much is agricultural policy, which is
> devolved, but has a significant impact on the content of Trade
> Agreements (and is one reason why they should go through a domestic
> ratification process rather than apparently being put into force right
> away). The devolved governments could have their say then, even if they
> really weren't involved in the original negotiations.
>
> That ratification process didn't appear to happen in Nov/Dec 2020 when
> Liz Truss was rushing various rollover deals through. Of course, if
> those deals were inevitably identical to the EU deals, and no-one was
> expecting them to be susceptible to the slightest change, then input
> from the devolved governments was moot. But there's still a due process
> to be followed!
>
> On the other hand, if the alternative to a 100% rollover deal was a "no
> deal", and was for some reason much more acceptable to the devolved
> governments [the EU deal being something they always hated], then
> perhaps that should have been available as an option.
>
> Fast forward to the Australian Trade Deal, and a lot of the quibbling is
> coming from eg Welsh sheep farmers. I wonder how much input the Welsh
> government is allowed by Westminster on this topic.

Yes, that's a good question, and become more pertinent when trade deals are
done with closer countries, where agriculture might play a bigger part.
With lamb and Australia, there's always been fairly balanced trade because
of the seasons: they have fresh lamb when we don't, and vice versa. That
won't be the case with northern hemisphere countries.

Of course, Britsh hill farming is hopelessly uneconomic, and is only viable
with heavy subsidies. Those will obviously continue, even though the
formula will change post-Brexit. Hopefully we can come up with one that's
optimised for the UK, rather than, say, France.

What we want is to enjoy the benefits of free trade (ie, cheaper food for
the population, more exports), while still choosing to subsidise the
farmers who look after our attractive landscape.

On 26/05/2021 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <s8jm31$b3c$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:18:42 on Tue, 25 May
> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> Given the fuss there’s been over the repatriation of powers from
>>> Brussels
>>> to Westminster rather than to Holyrood or Cardiff, and similar wrangling
>>> over direct spending by Westminster in devolved areas during the COVID
>>> crisis, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were at least an attempt to
>>> take
>>> control throughout the whole UK.
>>
>> Haven't most repatriated powers actually been devolved?  And is there any
>> history of previously devolved powers being taken back?
>
> One issue I don't see discussed much is agricultural policy, which is
> devolved, but has a significant impact on the content of Trade
> Agreements (and is one reason why they should go through a domestic
> ratification process rather than apparently being put into force right
> away). The devolved governments could have their say then, even if they
> really weren't involved in the original negotiations.
>
> That ratification process didn't appear to happen in Nov/Dec 2020 when
> Liz Truss was rushing various rollover deals through. Of course, if
> those deals were inevitably identical to the EU deals, and no-one was
> expecting them to be susceptible to the slightest change, then input
> from the devolved governments was moot. But there's still a due process
> to be followed!
>
> On the other hand, if the alternative to a 100% rollover deal was a "no
> deal", and was for some reason much more acceptable to the devolved
> governments [the EU deal being something they always hated], then
> perhaps that should have been available as an option.
>
> Fast forward to the Australian Trade Deal, and a lot of the quibbling is
> coming from eg Welsh sheep farmers. I wonder how much input the Welsh
> government is allowed by Westminster on this topic.

Not just the Welsh, the Scottish farmers are also complaining.

--
Graeme Wall
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