Just doing some research on Counties, and was hoping to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

Q1) Why has Gloucestershire somehow managed to never win a Championship, even though they're one of the original 8 founders of CC?

Q2) similar question re Sussex. Winners 3 times only.

Q3) Why do you think Yorkshire has been so dominant in CC? 33 wins. 2nd place is Surrey with 20.

Q4) Somewhat controversial - does any County have a partial right to claim to be "the real home of cricket"? Yorkshire has won so many. Lord's is in Middlesex. Do all 8 founders have a partial claim? What about "new" Counties like Essex - are they considered peers?

Q5) Lancashire or Yorkshire. Which one is nicer? :)

Q6) Is there kids' (ages 10-16) grassroot cricket in England *outside* of the schooling system?

Background to these questions - my son, who is developing a love for cricket, has asked to come over to England in the next year or 3 and play a bit of cricket (and see some castles - we don't have many of them here in Aus). So I'm trying decide where to base ourselves. I've ruled out big cities like London (which we'd ofc visit).

ty

Q7) can you recommend any books about the very early days of cricket?

On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 9:07:06 AM UTC+10, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> Q7) can you recommend any books about the very early days of cricket?

Depends what you mean "very early days"
https://www.cricketbooks.com.au/product/grace-w-g-w-g-cricket-reminiscences-and-personal-recollections-autobiography-2/
has WG's book pretty cheap

On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 12:03:44 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> Just doing some research on Counties, and was hoping to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance.
>
> Q1) Why has Gloucestershire somehow managed to never win a Championship, even though they're one of the original 8 founders of CC?

The official Championship if one can call it that dates from 1890 by which time WG was past his very best. His batting still had some glory days but his bowling was only a pale shadow of what it had once been. Moreover Gloucs particularly before WW1 relied heavily on amateurs who often were not available for a full season. (This applies to other counties such as Somerset and Worcs.)

The best years for Gloucs after WW1 were probably the 1930s when they had a team containing Hammond, Charlie Barnett, Tom Goddard and Charlie Parker
>
> Q2) similar question re Sussex. Winners 3 times only.

It is a very difficult competition to win. RH
>
> Q3) Why do you think Yorkshire has been so dominant in CC? 33 wins. 2nd place is Surrey with 20.

Probably because they have been the richest clubs . RH
>
> Q4) Somewhat controversial - does any County have a partial right to claim to be "the real home of cricket"?

The term is now simply a sentimental term applied to Lords. When the MCC ran the game the place had some factual claim to being the home of cricket. RH

Yorkshire has won so many. Lord's is in Middlesex. Do all 8 founders have a partial claim? What about "new" Counties like Essex - are they considered peers?

Yes in the formal sense of FC county status RH
>
> Q5) Lancashire or Yorkshire. Which one is nicer? :) Neither. RH
>
> Q6) Is there kids' (ages 10-16) grassroot cricket in England *outside* of the schooling system?
>
Many amateur clubs run teams for age groups, as do the counties for especially talented boys. RH

>
> Background to these questions - my son, who is developing a love for cricket, has asked to come over to England in the next year or 3 and play a bit of cricket (and see some castles - we don't have many of them here in Aus).. So I'm trying decide where to base ourselves. I've ruled out big cities like London (which we'd ofc visit).
>
> ty

Go to Northeast England, Northumberland, Cumberland, Durham.

RH

On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 12:07:06 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> Q7) can you recommend any books about the very early days of cricket?

These two books take you back to the 18th century. They are by one of the leading players of that time.

John Nyren's The cricketers of my time
John Nyren's The Young Cricketer's tutor

Tom Brown's Schooldays -Written by Thomas Hughes who attended Rugby School in the 1830s. An extended description of a match between the MCC and Rugby School.

HS Altham A history of cricket.

Does what is says on the tin. RH

On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 9:10:19 AM UTC+1, anywh...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 12:03:44 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Just doing some research on Counties, and was hoping to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Q1) Why has Gloucestershire somehow managed to never win a Championship, even though they're one of the original 8 founders of CC?
> The official Championship if one can call it that dates from 1890 by which time WG was past his very best. His batting still had some glory days but his bowling was only a pale shadow of what it had once been. Moreover Gloucs particularly before WW1 relied heavily on amateurs who often were not available for a full season. (This applies to other counties such as Somerset and Worcs.)
>

Before the lords agreement in 1889, Gloucs had been champion county at least 3 times in the 1870s when
WG was at his peak. There was no points system: it seems it was decided on most wins/fewest defeats,

see here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1876_English_cricket_season

Somerset also have never won I believe, but theyve been very good at coming 2nd
during the last 10 years. Somehow they always choke on the run in.

mike

On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 11:33:16 AM UTC+1, mike wrote:
> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 9:10:19 AM UTC+1, anywh...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 12:03:44 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Just doing some research on Counties, and was hoping to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Q1) Why has Gloucestershire somehow managed to never win a Championship, even though they're one of the original 8 founders of CC?
> > The official Championship if one can call it that dates from 1890 by which time WG was past his very best. His batting still had some glory days but his bowling was only a pale shadow of what it had once been. Moreover Gloucs particularly before WW1 relied heavily on amateurs who often were not available for a full season. (This applies to other counties such as Somerset and Worcs.)
> >
> Before the lords agreement in 1889, Gloucs had been champion county at least 3 times in the 1870s when

This is meaningless. The idea of a Championship before 1890 was dreamed up by the Newspapers. It had no official standing. . RH

> WG was at his peak. There was no points system: it seems it was decided on most wins/fewest defeats,
>
> see here

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1876_English_cricket_season
>
> Somerset also have never won I believe, but theyve been very good at coming 2nd
> during the last 10 years. Somehow they always choke on the run in.
>
> mike

On 13/08/2022 00:03, jack fredricks wrote:
> Q1) Why has Gloucestershire somehow managed to never win a
> Championship, even though they're one of the original 8 founders of
> CC?
> Q2) similar question re Sussex. Winners 3 times only.

As "mike" says, it depends when you count from. There have been
"champion counties" since the 1820s, and Sussex won quite a few of the
early ones [against limited opposition, it must be said] and Gloucs of
the period between the tightening of the qualification rules and the
"official" CC. There's no /good/ reason to discount the period from
1864-89; the main counties played home and away, and the papers
published tables, but didn't always agree on how to construct them.
But, that apart, ...

> Q3) Why do you think Yorkshire has been so dominant in CC? 33 wins.
> 2nd place is Surrey with 20.

..., wealth and professionalism. Having a Test venue brings in
lots of money, having a huge population within easy travelling distance
brings in the crowds and helps youngsters to get into the system, and
having oodles of paid professionals makes it easier to put out a strong
team. Other counties only got a look in when they, more-or-less by
accident, happened to have two or three really good players at the same
time, backed up by five or six good county-class players. When you've
got that, you do well and success breeds success, other good players are
attracted to you. Yorks had that more-or-less continuously from around
1900 through to WW2; which accounts for most of their 33 and also puts
a bit of a dampener on everyone else's count. It's been, broadly, much
more even [not totally so!] since around 1980.

> Q4) Somewhat controversial - does any County have a partial right to
> claim to be "the real home of cricket"? Yorkshire has won so many.
> Lord's is in Middlesex. Do all 8 founders have a partial claim? What
> about "new" Counties like Essex - are they considered peers?

No-one cares, other than the most rabid of supporters.

> Q5) Lancashire or Yorkshire. Which one is nicer? :)

Red, white or rose, m'sieur? Your choice.

> Q6) Is there kids' (ages 10-16) grassroot cricket in England
> *outside* of the schooling system?

Yes. Clubs "everywhere", plus things organised by the counties.
But it's not in a uniformly good state; "Freddy Flintoff's Field of
Dreams" is interesting [and better than I expected] from this PoV, if
you can catch it on iPlayer or other catch-up source.

> Q7) can you recommend any books about the very early days of cricket?

Depends whether you mean modern books about the history or
ancient books about what was to them contemporary or recent; also
whether you want something definitive but dry or something that might
be better aimed at your son [who I'm guessing is aged 10-16?]. Rather
the pre-judge what you really want, I suggest you trawl a bit through
the Wiki pages on cricket [or ask the horse's mouth, our own John Hall,
directly!], and look up their references. Or you could do worse than
get a[ny] biography of WG, and work out from there to biographies of
other early players, such as those of the All-England XI [qv]. Again,
depends a bit whether for you "very early" means 1820-odd, 1850-odd,
the early Oz tours, or pre-WW1. For "a bit", read "rather a lot".

> Background to these questions - my son, who is developing a love for
> cricket, has asked to come over to England in the next year or 3 and
> play a bit of cricket (and see some castles - we don't have many of
> them here in Aus). So I'm trying decide where to base ourselves. I've
> ruled out big cities like London (which we'd ofc visit).

Pass. Depends what you call "big", I suppose -- there are no
big cities like London exc London. We have civilisation, of a sort,
almost everywhere. You perhaps want to be near a Test ground? That
limits it, esp if you want a Real Test ground as opposed to the recent
ones that many counties now have. Look up the castles before visiting.
Quite a lot are castles only in name, and many others are in ruins.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Bendel

In message <9078b8c2-5909-4734-9c1f-348620b0b494n@googlegroups.com>,
mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 9:10:19 AM UTC+1, anywh...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 12:03:44 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > Just doing some research on Counties, and was hoping to hear your
>> >thoughts. Thanks in advance.
>> >
>> > Q1) Why has Gloucestershire somehow managed to never win a
>> >Championship, even though they're one of the original 8 founders of CC?
>> The official Championship if one can call it that dates from 1890 by
>>which time WG was past his very best. His batting still had some glory
>>days but his bowling was only a pale shadow of what it had once been.
>>Moreover Gloucs particularly before WW1 relied heavily on amateurs who
>>often were not available for a full season. (This applies to other
>>counties such as Somerset and Worcs.)
>>
>
>Before the lords agreement in 1889, Gloucs had been champion county at
>least 3 times in the 1870s when
>WG was at his peak. There was no points system: it seems it was decided
>on most wins/fewest defeats,

That was the commonest method, but it all depended on the whim of the
various publications that produced their own unofficial Championship
tables. Sometimes they all agreed on which county was top, but
occasionally they didn't.

>
>see here
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1876_English_cricket_season

They also came close in 1947, when they were pipped by Middlesex, who
were able to win the title in spite of their attack not being that
strong because of the huge number of runs Compton, Bill Edrick and
Robertson scored very quickly.

>
>Somerset also have never won I believe, but theyve been very good at coming 2nd
>during the last 10 years. Somehow they always choke on the run in.
>
>mike

Yes. They've come very close in some recent years, but somehow can never
quite get over the line. It's also surprising that they never won it in
the Botham, Richards, Garner era - at least before things turned sour in
the latter part of that period.

The only other side never to have won the Championship is Northants.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 6:41:34 PM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
> In message <9078b8c2-5909-4734...@googlegroups.com>,
> mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 9:10:19 AM UTC+1, anywh...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 12:03:44 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > Just doing some research on Counties, and was hoping to hear your
> >> >thoughts. Thanks in advance.
> >> >
> >> > Q1) Why has Gloucestershire somehow managed to never win a
> >> >Championship, even though they're one of the original 8 founders of CC?
> >> The official Championship if one can call it that dates from 1890 by
> >>which time WG was past his very best. His batting still had some glory
> >>days but his bowling was only a pale shadow of what it had once been.
> >>Moreover Gloucs particularly before WW1 relied heavily on amateurs who
> >>often were not available for a full season. (This applies to other
> >>counties such as Somerset and Worcs.)
> >>
> >
> >Before the lords agreement in 1889, Gloucs had been champion county at
> >least 3 times in the 1870s when
> >WG was at his peak. There was no points system: it seems it was decided
> >on most wins/fewest defeats,
> That was the commonest method, but it all depended on the whim of the
> various publications that produced their own unofficial Championship
> tables. Sometimes they all agreed on which county was top, but
> occasionally they didn't.
>
> >
> >see here
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1876_English_cricket_season
>
> They also came close in 1947, when they were pipped by Middlesex, who
> were able to win the title in spite of their attack not being that
> strong because of the huge number of runs Compton, Bill Edrick and
> Robertson scored very quickly.
> >
> >Somerset also have never won I believe, but theyve been very good at coming 2nd
> >during the last 10 years. Somehow they always choke on the run in.
> >
> >mike
> Yes. They've come very close in some recent years, but somehow can never
> quite get over the line. It's also surprising that they never won it in
> the Botham, Richards, Garner era - at least before things turned sour in
> the latter part of that period.
>
> The only other side never to have won the Championship is Northants.
> --
> John Hall
> "Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
> But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
> Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

Outside of the Big Six - Surrey, Lancs, Yorks, Mddx, Kent, Notts - Championship wins took a long time coming -

Warks 1911
Derbyshire 1936
Glamorgan 1948
Hampshire 1961
Worcester 1964

Read the rest here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_County_Championship_winners

RH

On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 5:14:04 PM UTC+10, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 9:07:06 AM UTC+10, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Q7) can you recommend any books about the very early days of cricket?
> Depends what you mean "very early days"
> https://www.cricketbooks.com.au/product/grace-w-g-w-g-cricket-reminiscences-and-personal-recollections-autobiography-2/
> has WG's book pretty cheap

Thanks. I think that's as good as start as any.

On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 6:10:19 PM UTC+10, anywh...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Q3) Why do you think Yorkshire has been so dominant in CC? 33 wins. 2nd place is Surrey with 20.
> Probably because they have been the richest clubs . RH

Surely the London counties had access to wealth.

> > Q6) Is there kids' (ages 10-16) grassroot cricket in England *outside* of the schooling system?
> Many amateur clubs run teams for age groups, as do the counties for especially talented boys. RH

Might be tricky to get a few casual games for him. I know I can easily do that as an adult.

> Go to Northeast England, Northumberland, Cumberland, Durham.

thanks

> Before the lords agreement in 1889, Gloucs had been champion county at least 3 times in the 1870s when
> WG was at his peak. There was no points system: it seems it was decided on most wins/fewest defeats,

That's interesting. Was there a negotiation about recognising those feats? Or was it just as case of "new comp, clean slate"?

On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 9:16:09 PM UTC+10, anywh...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Before the lords agreement in 1889, Gloucs had been champion county at least 3 times in the 1870s when
> This is meaningless. The idea of a Championship before 1890 was dreamed up by the Newspapers. It had no official standing. . RH

No table? No post-season boasting?
Did they just _play_?

On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 7:09:06 AM UTC+1, jzfre...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 9:16:09 PM UTC+10, anywh...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Before the lords agreement in 1889, Gloucs had been champion county at least 3 times in the 1870s when
> > This is meaningless. The idea of a Championship before 1890 was dreamed up by the Newspapers. It had no official standing. . RH
> No table? No post-season boasting?
> Did they just _play_?

The quick answer to this is yes. But there is more to it than that. There were rivalries between particular counties, for example, Yorkshire and Surrey, Lancashire and Yorkshire. If Yorkshire beat Lancashire that made a satisfactory year Yorkshire and vice versa.

After the Championship was established formally in 1890 it might be thought that have a league (the Championship) with no promotion and relegation was dull. Not so because the traditional inter county rivalries eg Lancs v Notts continued and positions in the Championship were taken as indicators of the season. For example if Yorkshire came 6th that would be considered a poor season for them but if Leics came sixth that would be considered a good season.

RH

In message <fe0e8d28-97cf-4a67-a180-730728f04a1en@googlegroups.com>,
jack fredricks <jzfredricks@gmail.com> writes
>On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 6:10:19 PM UTC+10, anywh...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > Q3) Why do you think Yorkshire has been so dominant in CC? 33 wins.
>> >2nd place is Surrey with 20.
>> Probably because they have been the richest clubs . RH
>
>Surely the London counties had access to wealth.

Middlesex's problem is that they don't own Lord's but are just a
"tenant" of the MCC. The other London club, Surrey, as RH pointed out
have usually been amongst the richest clubs (and currently are the
richest of all).
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 10:13:34 +0100, John Hall
<john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <fe0e8d28-97cf-4a67-a180-730728f04a1en@googlegroups.com>,
>jack fredricks <jzfredricks@gmail.com> writes
>>On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 6:10:19 PM UTC+10, anywh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> > Q3) Why do you think Yorkshire has been so dominant in CC? 33 wins.
>>> >2nd place is Surrey with 20.
>>> Probably because they have been the richest clubs . RH
>>
>>Surely the London counties had access to wealth.
>
>Middlesex's problem is that they don't own Lord's but are just a
>"tenant" of the MCC. The other London club, Surrey, as RH pointed out
>have usually been amongst the richest clubs (and currently are the
>richest of all).

Our club used to own 2/3 of the outfield and the square and some small
adjacent areas. These days we don't really own any of it. We are there
because we pay for it and the consitution of the larger club and
grounds includes a cricket square. If were not there for a few years
then it our square and ground would become a rugby pitch with maybe a
roll out pitch available for a while during the summer.

That's why when our snr cricket club ceased we entered social leages
and hosted friendlies and charity matches. We're on the mend now with
all of these Indian lads being happy to pay, play and help out.
We have a game on 28th and as it usually takes a couple of weeks to
collect up 11 victims I put out the availability call early. Almost
immediately, 15 yes replies.
RH would love our club most of the players are doctors and nurses ;-)

max.it