James May has voiced his support for introducing 20mph speed limits in urban and residential areas, which he believes is “plenty fast enough”, while also arguing that a “change in attitude”, rather than new signage or infrastructure, is key to ending road sectarianism.

The Grand Tour and former Top Gear presenter was speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme (link is external) this morning, amid reports that the government is considering draft road planning regulations that would introduce a default 20mph speed limit on new or redesigned urban and residential streets.

A draft version of Manual for Streets, the Department for Transport’s planning document for residential areas, seen by the Sunday Times (link is external) and set to be published early this year, says “the default should be to work to a design speed limit of 20mph in urban environments” and that “for residential streets, a maximum design speed of 20mph should normally be an objective, with significantly lower speeds usually desirable”.

According to the Sunday Times, other measures in the draft document include creating a hierarchy of road users based on their environmental impact, with cyclists and pedestrians at the top, followed by public transport, and with petrol and diesel vehicles at the bottom.

In England, a third of the population live in areas with 20mph speed limits, while from September blanket 20mph zones will be introduced in Wales on residential areas and streets busy with pedestrians, and where street lights are fewer than 200 yards apart. Scotland is also set to make 20mph the “norm” in built-up areas, with councils permitted to make exceptions if they deem the area safe.

On this morning’s Today programme, Neil Greig, director of policy and research at the road safety charity, the Institute of Advanced Motorists, argued that a default approach to 20mph on its own will not enhance road safety or benefit active travel.

“We’ve had longstanding concerns about a blanket approach to 20mph,” Grieg told the BBC’s long-running news and current affairs show.

“If you have to change the speed limit on a road, you have to change the environmental cues to tell drivers what speed they should be safely driving at. And the problem with simply changing to 20mph without changing the road, is that drivers will continue to drive on at the previous speeds.

“And that means you don’t have the safety benefits, and you don’t have the active travel benefits of changing the environment to make it easier to walk and cycle.”

He continued: “For example, when you look at European countries like [the Netherlands], they changed the whole cityscape – you have different surfaces, obvious mixed use – it’s clear that you have pedestrians, cyclists, and motorised vehicles sharing the same space.

“And that’s the key here: it’s making it obvious that the shared space is for everyone. But when you try to retrofit that onto our older cities, those design cues aren’t there.

“Simply changing the speed limit, changing the signs doesn’t have the impact people think it will have.”

While former Top Gear host May – a lifelong cyclist who appeared on road.cc’s Drink at Your Desk series last May, decrying what he regards as “feeble minded” road sectarianism – agreed with Greig’s belief that changing signs isn’t enough to increase road safety, he argued that driving at 20mph is more than adequate when travelling in most built-up areas.

“I would agree that a blanket 20mph would probably be a little bit knuckle-headed, but in a lot of urban places, city centres, towns, and villages, actually 20mph makes perfect sense,” he told the Today programme.

“I live in Hammersmith, in west London, which is an area where people seem particularly fond of just running out into the street without looking – which is their prerogative because they are people not machines.

“20mph is plenty fast enough and 30 does feel too fast. And, to be honest, if you could go around somewhere like London, or Manchester, or Birmingham, at a constant 20mph, you’d be absolutely delighted.”

When asked about the apparent need to change the ‘environmental cues’ before adjusting speed limits, May claimed that an over-proliferation of rules and signage can “baffle” road users – and that a shift in attitude is really what’s needed to make Britain’s roads safer.

“He [Greig] has a point to some extent, but I do a lot of cycling around London and I think we can become over obsessed with things like rules, street furniture, signage, traffic lights and so on,” the journalist said.

“They’ve been doing this with a bike lane near me; which I think is not particularly well thought out, because you have a two-way road running alongside a two-way bicycle lane, with lots of junctions off it. The attempts to control it – with lights and signs and warnings – they’ve proliferated to the point where it’s becoming baffling.”

He continued: “All these things ultimately are cured by a change in attitude, not a change in signage or infrastructure or colours, or anything like that.

“That might be a stepping stone to ending road sectarianism and making towns and cities nicer places for everyone to travel around in. But I think ultimately it is about it, well: a mindful attitude. I hate to sound very right-on, but it is.”

May expressed this “right-on” approach to road safety in an interview with road.cc last year, during which he described the us-and-them attitudes of some road users as “b*ll*cks”.

“The thing I can’t stand, I’ve railed against this before, [is] road sectarianism – because it’s feeble minded,” he said.

“Supposedly bus drivers hate taxi drivers and car drivers hate cyclists, but cyclists hate people on electric scooters and so it goes on and on and on. It’s a great story for the media because they like to get a famous radio personality on there ranting about bikes and taxi driver ranting about how he or she has to make a living.

“It's a good story, but it's all b*ll*cks, frankly. People just need to accept the fact that we’ve got enough common enemies. To be honest, if you're riding a bike or driving car or using a motorcycle or a scooter, things like potholes, bad road markings, badly parked things, roadworks, bits being constantly dug up, all these things annoy all of us, and we have those in common.

“We don't need to fall out with each other about it,” he concluded. “I find it very feeble.”

May’s ambition to achieve a sense of commonality on the roads wasn’t aided by GB News presenter Andrew Pierce’s contribution to the speed limit discussion last night.

Responding to the reports of a default 20mph limit, which he believes will be implemented “to support cyclists”, the Daily Mail writer tweeted: “Why do governments hate motorists and how much tax do cyclists pay? None.”

While this week’s reports have sparked a somewhat contentious debate, a spokesperson for the Department for Transport has said there are currently “no plans to introduce default or national 20mph speed limits in urban environments”.

“We have always encouraged road designs that enable low speeds to prioritise safety. It is for local authorities to consider setting 20mph speed limits on streets where people and traffic mix,” the spokesperson said.

https://road.cc/content/news/james-may-says-20mph-plenty-fast-enough-298955

swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
> James May has voiced his support for introducing 20mph speed limits in
> urban and residential areas, which he believes is “plenty fast enough”,
> while also arguing that a “change in attitude”, rather than new signage
> or infrastructure, is key to ending road sectarianism.
>
> The Grand Tour and former Top Gear presenter was speaking on BBC Radio
> 4’s Today programme (link is external) this morning, amid reports that
> the government is considering draft road planning regulations that would
> introduce a default 20mph speed limit on new or redesigned urban and residential streets.
>
> A draft version of Manual for Streets, the Department for Transport’s
> planning document for residential areas, seen by the Sunday Times (link
> is external) and set to be published early this year, says “the default
> should be to work to a design speed limit of 20mph in urban environments”
> and that “for residential streets, a maximum design speed of 20mph should
> normally be an objective, with significantly lower speeds usually desirable”.
>
> According to the Sunday Times, other measures in the draft document
> include creating a hierarchy of road users based on their environmental
> impact, with cyclists and pedestrians at the top, followed by public
> transport, and with petrol and diesel vehicles at the bottom.
>
> In England, a third of the population live in areas with 20mph speed
> limits, while from September blanket 20mph zones will be introduced in
> Wales on residential areas and streets busy with pedestrians, and where
> street lights are fewer than 200 yards apart. Scotland is also set to
> make 20mph the “norm” in built-up areas, with councils permitted to make
> exceptions if they deem the area safe.
>
> On this morning’s Today programme, Neil Greig, director of policy and
> research at the road safety charity, the Institute of Advanced Motorists,
> argued that a default approach to 20mph on its own will not enhance road
> safety or benefit active travel.
>
> “We’ve had longstanding concerns about a blanket approach to 20mph,”
> Grieg told the BBC’s long-running news and current affairs show.
>
> “If you have to change the speed limit on a road, you have to change the
> environmental cues to tell drivers what speed they should be safely
> driving at. And the problem with simply changing to 20mph without
> changing the road, is that drivers will continue to drive on at the previous speeds.
>
> “And that means you don’t have the safety benefits, and you don’t have
> the active travel benefits of changing the environment to make it easier
> to walk and cycle.”
>
> He continued: “For example, when you look at European countries like [the
> Netherlands], they changed the whole cityscape – you have different
> surfaces, obvious mixed use – it’s clear that you have pedestrians,
> cyclists, and motorised vehicles sharing the same space.
>
> “And that’s the key here: it’s making it obvious that the shared space is
> for everyone. But when you try to retrofit that onto our older cities,
> those design cues aren’t there.
>
> “Simply changing the speed limit, changing the signs doesn’t have the
> impact people think it will have.”
>
> While former Top Gear host May – a lifelong cyclist who appeared on
> road.cc’s Drink at Your Desk series last May, decrying what he regards as
> “feeble minded” road sectarianism – agreed with Greig’s belief that
> changing signs isn’t enough to increase road safety, he argued that
> driving at 20mph is more than adequate when travelling in most built-up areas.
>
> “I would agree that a blanket 20mph would probably be a little bit
> knuckle-headed, but in a lot of urban places, city centres, towns, and
> villages, actually 20mph makes perfect sense,” he told the Today programme.
>
> “I live in Hammersmith, in west London, which is an area where people
> seem particularly fond of just running out into the street without
> looking – which is their prerogative because they are people not machines.
>
> “20mph is plenty fast enough and 30 does feel too fast. And, to be
> honest, if you could go around somewhere like London, or Manchester, or
> Birmingham, at a constant 20mph, you’d be absolutely delighted.”
>
> When asked about the apparent need to change the ‘environmental cues’
> before adjusting speed limits, May claimed that an over-proliferation of
> rules and signage can “baffle” road users – and that a shift in attitude
> is really what’s needed to make Britain’s roads safer.
>
> “He [Greig] has a point to some extent, but I do a lot of cycling around
> London and I think we can become over obsessed with things like rules,
> street furniture, signage, traffic lights and so on,” the journalist said.
>
> “They’ve been doing this with a bike lane near me; which I think is not
> particularly well thought out, because you have a two-way road running
> alongside a two-way bicycle lane, with lots of junctions off it. The
> attempts to control it – with lights and signs and warnings – they’ve
> proliferated to the point where it’s becoming baffling.”
>
> He continued: “All these things ultimately are cured by a change in
> attitude, not a change in signage or infrastructure or colours, or anything like that.
>
> “That might be a stepping stone to ending road sectarianism and making
> towns and cities nicer places for everyone to travel around in. But I
> think ultimately it is about it, well: a mindful attitude. I hate to
> sound very right-on, but it is.”
>
> May expressed this “right-on” approach to road safety in an interview
> with road.cc last year, during which he described the us-and-them
> attitudes of some road users as “b*ll*cks”.
>
> “The thing I can’t stand, I’ve railed against this before, [is] road
> sectarianism – because it’s feeble minded,” he said.
>
> “Supposedly bus drivers hate taxi drivers and car drivers hate cyclists,
> but cyclists hate people on electric scooters and so it goes on and on
> and on. It’s a great story for the media because they like to get a
> famous radio personality on there ranting about bikes and taxi driver
> ranting about how he or she has to make a living.
>
> “It's a good story, but it's all b*ll*cks, frankly. People just need to
> accept the fact that we’ve got enough common enemies. To be honest, if
> you're riding a bike or driving car or using a motorcycle or a scooter,
> things like potholes, bad road markings, badly parked things, roadworks,
> bits being constantly dug up, all these things annoy all of us, and we
> have those in common.
>
> “We don't need to fall out with each other about it,” he concluded. “I
> find it very feeble.”
>
> May’s ambition to achieve a sense of commonality on the roads wasn’t
> aided by GB News presenter Andrew Pierce’s contribution to the speed
> limit discussion last night.
>
> Responding to the reports of a default 20mph limit, which he believes
> will be implemented “to support cyclists”, the Daily Mail writer tweeted:
> “Why do governments hate motorists and how much tax do cyclists pay? None.”
>
> While this week’s reports have sparked a somewhat contentious debate, a
> spokesperson for the Department for Transport has said there are
> currently “no plans to introduce default or national 20mph speed limits
> in urban environments”.
>
> “We have always encouraged road designs that enable low speeds to
> prioritise safety. It is for local authorities to consider setting 20mph
> speed limits on streets where people and traffic mix,” the spokesperson said.
>
> https://road.cc/content/news/james-may-says-20mph-plenty-fast-enough-298955
>

Speed limits apply to cyclists, including those who use the excuse they
always ride that fast and injure / kill people.

QUOTE: “20mph is plenty fast enough and 30 does feel too fast. And, to be honest, if you could go around somewhere like London, or Manchester, or Birmingham, at a constant 20mph, you’d be absolutely delighted.” ENDS

Long term general traffic speeds in London are measured for central, inner and outer London using GPS-based data for key roads. Weekday (07:00 to 19:00) speeds from 2008 to 2018 have changed from:

8.7 mph to 7.1 mph in central London
12.5 mph to 11.6 mph in inner London
20.3 mph to 19.3 mph in outer London

GETTING SLOWER EVERY DAY.

Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:
> swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
>> James May has voiced his support for introducing 20mph speed limits in
>> urban and residential areas, which he believes is “plenty fast enough”,
>> while also arguing that a “change in attitude”, rather than new signage
>> or infrastructure, is key to ending road sectarianism.
>>
>> The Grand Tour and former Top Gear presenter was speaking on BBC Radio
>> 4’s Today programme (link is external) this morning, amid reports that
>> the government is considering draft road planning regulations that would
>> introduce a default 20mph speed limit on new or redesigned urban and residential streets.
>>
>> A draft version of Manual for Streets, the Department for Transport’s
>> planning document for residential areas, seen by the Sunday Times (link
>> is external) and set to be published early this year, says “the default
>> should be to work to a design speed limit of 20mph in urban environments”
>> and that “for residential streets, a maximum design speed of 20mph should
>> normally be an objective, with significantly lower speeds usually desirable”.
>>
>> According to the Sunday Times, other measures in the draft document
>> include creating a hierarchy of road users based on their environmental
>> impact, with cyclists and pedestrians at the top, followed by public
>> transport, and with petrol and diesel vehicles at the bottom.
>>
>> In England, a third of the population live in areas with 20mph speed
>> limits, while from September blanket 20mph zones will be introduced in
>> Wales on residential areas and streets busy with pedestrians, and where
>> street lights are fewer than 200 yards apart. Scotland is also set to
>> make 20mph the “norm” in built-up areas, with councils permitted to make
>> exceptions if they deem the area safe.
>>
>> On this morning’s Today programme, Neil Greig, director of policy and
>> research at the road safety charity, the Institute of Advanced Motorists,
>> argued that a default approach to 20mph on its own will not enhance road
>> safety or benefit active travel.
>>
>> “We’ve had longstanding concerns about a blanket approach to 20mph,”
>> Grieg told the BBC’s long-running news and current affairs show.
>>
>> “If you have to change the speed limit on a road, you have to change the
>> environmental cues to tell drivers what speed they should be safely
>> driving at. And the problem with simply changing to 20mph without
>> changing the road, is that drivers will continue to drive on at the previous speeds.
>>
>> “And that means you don’t have the safety benefits, and you don’t have
>> the active travel benefits of changing the environment to make it easier
>> to walk and cycle.”
>>
>> He continued: “For example, when you look at European countries like [the
>> Netherlands], they changed the whole cityscape – you have different
>> surfaces, obvious mixed use – it’s clear that you have pedestrians,
>> cyclists, and motorised vehicles sharing the same space.
>>
>> “And that’s the key here: it’s making it obvious that the shared space is
>> for everyone. But when you try to retrofit that onto our older cities,
>> those design cues aren’t there.
>>
>> “Simply changing the speed limit, changing the signs doesn’t have the
>> impact people think it will have.”
>>
>> While former Top Gear host May – a lifelong cyclist who appeared on
>> road.cc’s Drink at Your Desk series last May, decrying what he regards as
>> “feeble minded” road sectarianism – agreed with Greig’s belief that
>> changing signs isn’t enough to increase road safety, he argued that
>> driving at 20mph is more than adequate when travelling in most built-up areas.
>>
>> “I would agree that a blanket 20mph would probably be a little bit
>> knuckle-headed, but in a lot of urban places, city centres, towns, and
>> villages, actually 20mph makes perfect sense,” he told the Today programme.
>>
>> “I live in Hammersmith, in west London, which is an area where people
>> seem particularly fond of just running out into the street without
>> looking – which is their prerogative because they are people not machines.
>>
>> “20mph is plenty fast enough and 30 does feel too fast. And, to be
>> honest, if you could go around somewhere like London, or Manchester, or
>> Birmingham, at a constant 20mph, you’d be absolutely delighted.”
>>
>> When asked about the apparent need to change the ‘environmental cues’
>> before adjusting speed limits, May claimed that an over-proliferation of
>> rules and signage can “baffle” road users – and that a shift in attitude
>> is really what’s needed to make Britain’s roads safer.
>>
>> “He [Greig] has a point to some extent, but I do a lot of cycling around
>> London and I think we can become over obsessed with things like rules,
>> street furniture, signage, traffic lights and so on,” the journalist said.
>>
>> “They’ve been doing this with a bike lane near me; which I think is not
>> particularly well thought out, because you have a two-way road running
>> alongside a two-way bicycle lane, with lots of junctions off it. The
>> attempts to control it – with lights and signs and warnings – they’ve
>> proliferated to the point where it’s becoming baffling.”
>>
>> He continued: “All these things ultimately are cured by a change in
>> attitude, not a change in signage or infrastructure or colours, or anything like that.
>>
>> “That might be a stepping stone to ending road sectarianism and making
>> towns and cities nicer places for everyone to travel around in. But I
>> think ultimately it is about it, well: a mindful attitude. I hate to
>> sound very right-on, but it is.”
>>
>> May expressed this “right-on” approach to road safety in an interview
>> with road.cc last year, during which he described the us-and-them
>> attitudes of some road users as “b*ll*cks”.
>>
>> “The thing I can’t stand, I’ve railed against this before, [is] road
>> sectarianism – because it’s feeble minded,” he said.
>>
>> “Supposedly bus drivers hate taxi drivers and car drivers hate cyclists,
>> but cyclists hate people on electric scooters and so it goes on and on
>> and on. It’s a great story for the media because they like to get a
>> famous radio personality on there ranting about bikes and taxi driver
>> ranting about how he or she has to make a living.
>>
>> “It's a good story, but it's all b*ll*cks, frankly. People just need to
>> accept the fact that we’ve got enough common enemies. To be honest, if
>> you're riding a bike or driving car or using a motorcycle or a scooter,
>> things like potholes, bad road markings, badly parked things, roadworks,
>> bits being constantly dug up, all these things annoy all of us, and we
>> have those in common.
>>
>> “We don't need to fall out with each other about it,” he concluded. “I
>> find it very feeble.”
>>
>> May’s ambition to achieve a sense of commonality on the roads wasn’t
>> aided by GB News presenter Andrew Pierce’s contribution to the speed
>> limit discussion last night.
>>
>> Responding to the reports of a default 20mph limit, which he believes
>> will be implemented “to support cyclists”, the Daily Mail writer tweeted:
>> “Why do governments hate motorists and how much tax do cyclists pay? None.”
>>
>> While this week’s reports have sparked a somewhat contentious debate, a
>> spokesperson for the Department for Transport has said there are
>> currently “no plans to introduce default or national 20mph speed limits
>> in urban environments”.
>>
>> “We have always encouraged road designs that enable low speeds to
>> prioritise safety. It is for local authorities to consider setting 20mph
>> speed limits on streets where people and traffic mix,” the spokesperson said.
>>
>> https://road.cc/content/news/james-may-says-20mph-plenty-fast-enough-298955

> Speed limits apply to cyclists, including those who use the excuse they
> always ride that fast and injure / kill people.

I heard the May interview, and I’d have to say I don’t recognise the
reporting here as reflecting the wider concerns he expressed.

But this is road.cc reporting, after all.

--
Spike

swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
> QUOTE: “20mph is plenty fast enough and 30 does feel too fast. And, to be
> honest, if you could go around somewhere like London, or Manchester, or
> Birmingham, at a constant 20mph, you’d be absolutely delighted.” ENDS
>
> Long term general traffic speeds in London are measured for central,
> inner and outer London using GPS-based data for key roads. Weekday (07:00
> to 19:00) speeds from 2008 to 2018 have changed from:
>
> 8.7 mph to 7.1 mph in central London
> 12.5 mph to 11.6 mph in inner London
> 20.3 mph to 19.3 mph in outer London
>
> GETTING SLOWER EVERY DAY.

If that is seen as a bad thing, then take away the 20 limits, the cycling
infra, LTNs and the rest of the claptrap.

There’s been a concerted effort to slow vehicular traffic in cities, which
include the measures mentioned, and now the faithful are pointing out the
results of their work as if it’s a bad thing.

--
Spike

On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 6:05:31 PM UTC, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
> QUOTE: “20mph is plenty fast enough and 30 does feel too fast. And, to be honest, if you could go around somewhere like London, or Manchester, or Birmingham, at a constant 20mph, you’d be absolutely delighted.” ENDS
>
> Long term general traffic speeds in London are measured for central, inner and outer London using GPS-based data for key roads. Weekday (07:00 to 19:00) speeds from 2008 to 2018 have changed from:
>
> 8.7 mph to 7.1 mph in central London
> 12.5 mph to 11.6 mph in inner London
> 20.3 mph to 19.3 mph in outer London
>
> GETTING SLOWER EVERY DAY.

I topped out at an average 22mph average commute on my Scott Addict - faster than a car as I had a straight run on an old rail line.

swldx...@gmail.com wrote:

> I topped out at an average 22mph average commute on my Scott Addict -
> faster than a car as I had a straight run on an old rail line.

So, comparing apples and oranges, then.

--
Spike

On 30/01/2023 04:53 pm, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:

> James May has voiced his support for introducing 20mph speed limits in urban and residential areas, which he believes is “plenty fast enough”, while also arguing that a “change in attitude”, rather than new signage or infrastructure, is key to ending road sectarianism.
> The Grand Tour and former Top Gear presenter was speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme (link is external) this morning, amid reports that the government is considering draft road planning regulations that would introduce a default 20mph speed limit on new or redesigned urban and residential streets.

For side streets, that's fine.
>
> A draft version of Manual for Streets, the Department for Transport’s planning document for residential areas, seen by the Sunday Times (link is external) and set to be published early this year, says “the default should be to work to a design speed limit of 20mph in urban environments” and that “for residential streets, a maximum design speed of 20mph should normally be an objective, with significantly lower speeds usually desirable”.
> According to the Sunday Times, other measures in the draft document include creating a hierarchy of road users based on their environmental impact, with cyclists and pedestrians at the top, followed by public transport, and with petrol and diesel vehicles at the bottom.
> In England, a third of the population live in areas with 20mph speed limits, while from September blanket 20mph zones will be introduced in Wales on residential areas and streets busy with pedestrians, and where street lights are fewer than 200 yards apart. Scotland is also set to make 20mph the “norm” in built-up areas, with councils permitted to make exceptions if they deem the area safe.
> On this morning’s Today programme, Neil Greig, director of policy and research at the road safety charity, the Institute of Advanced Motorists, argued that a default approach to 20mph on its own will not enhance road safety or benefit active travel.
> “We’ve had longstanding concerns about a blanket approach to 20mph,” Grieg told the BBC’s long-running news and current affairs show.
> “If you have to change the speed limit on a road, you have to change the environmental cues to tell drivers what speed they should be safely driving at. And the problem with simply changing to 20mph without changing the road, is that drivers will continue to drive on at the previous speeds.
> “And that means you don’t have the safety benefits, and you don’t have the active travel benefits of changing the environment to make it easier to walk and cycle.”
> He continued: “For example, when you look at European countries like [the Netherlands], they changed the whole cityscape – you have different surfaces, obvious mixed use – it’s clear that you have pedestrians, cyclists, and motorised vehicles sharing the same space.
> “And that’s the key here: it’s making it obvious that the shared space is for everyone. But when you try to retrofit that onto our older cities, those design cues aren’t there.
> “Simply changing the speed limit, changing the signs doesn’t have the impact people think it will have.”
> While former Top Gear host May – a lifelong cyclist who appeared on road.cc’s Drink at Your Desk series last May, decrying what he regards as “feeble minded” road sectarianism – agreed with Greig’s belief that changing signs isn’t enough to increase road safety, he argued that driving at 20mph is more than adequate when travelling in most built-up areas.
> “I would agree that a blanket 20mph would probably be a little bit knuckle-headed, but in a lot of urban places, city centres, towns, and villages, actually 20mph makes perfect sense,” he told the Today programme.

"...a blanket 20mph would probably be a little bit knuckle-headed..."

Well... it *does* tend to be advocated by fairy-cyclists and their
illiterate house-magazines, so no surprise there.

> “I live in Hammersmith, in west London, which is an area where people seem particularly fond of just running out into the street without looking – which is their prerogative because they are people not machines.
> “20mph is plenty fast enough and 30 does feel too fast. And, to be honest, if you could go around somewhere like London, or Manchester, or Birmingham, at a constant 20mph, you’d be absolutely delighted.”
> When asked about the apparent need to change the ‘environmental cues’ before adjusting speed limits, May claimed that an over-proliferation of rules and signage can “baffle” road users – and that a shift in attitude is really what’s needed to make Britain’s roads safer.
> “He [Greig] has a point to some extent, but I do a lot of cycling around London and I think we can become over obsessed with things like rules, street furniture, signage, traffic lights and so on,” the journalist said.
> “They’ve been doing this with a bike lane near me; which I think is not particularly well thought out, because you have a two-way road running alongside a two-way bicycle lane, with lots of junctions off it. The attempts to control it – with lights and signs and warnings – they’ve proliferated to the point where it’s becoming baffling.”
> He continued: “All these things ultimately are cured by a change in attitude, not a change in signage or infrastructure or colours, or anything like that.
> “That might be a stepping stone to ending road sectarianism and making towns and cities nicer places for everyone to travel around in. But I think ultimately it is about it, well: a mindful attitude. I hate to sound very right-on, but it is.”
> May expressed this “right-on” approach to road safety in an interview with road.cc last year, during which he described the us-and-them attitudes of some road users as “b*ll*cks”.
> “The thing I can’t stand, I’ve railed against this before, [is] road sectarianism – because it’s feeble minded,” he said.
> “Supposedly bus drivers hate taxi drivers and car drivers hate cyclists, but cyclists hate people on electric scooters and so it goes on and on and on. It’s a great story for the media because they like to get a famous radio personality on there ranting about bikes and taxi driver ranting about how he or she has to make a living.
> “It's a good story, but it's all b*ll*cks, frankly. People just need to accept the fact that we’ve got enough common enemies. To be honest, if you're riding a bike or driving car or using a motorcycle or a scooter, things like potholes, bad road markings, badly parked things, roadworks, bits being constantly dug up, all these things annoy all of us, and we have those in common.
> “We don't need to fall out with each other about it,” he concluded. “I find it very feeble.”
> May’s ambition to achieve a sense of commonality on the roads wasn’t aided by GB News presenter Andrew Pierce’s contribution to the speed limit discussion last night.
> Responding to the reports of a default 20mph limit, which he believes will be implemented “to support cyclists”, the Daily Mail writer tweeted: “Why do governments hate motorists and how much tax do cyclists pay? None.”
> While this week’s reports have sparked a somewhat contentious debate, a spokesperson for the Department for Transport has said there are currently “no plans to introduce default or national 20mph speed limits in urban environments”.
> “We have always encouraged road designs that enable low speeds to prioritise safety. It is for local authorities to consider setting 20mph speed limits on streets where people and traffic mix,” the spokesperson said.

> https://road.cc/content/news/james-may-says-20mph-plenty-fast-enough-298955

belugabob | 239 posts | 2 min ago
0 likes

"And the problem with simply changing to 20mph without changing the road, is that drivers will continue to drive on at the previous speeds."

So, reducing a 30 zone to a 20 zone will result in people still doing 40 (or more)...?

On 30/01/2023 17:12, Brian wrote:
> swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
>> James May has voiced his support for introducing 20mph speed limits in
>> urban and residential areas, which he believes is “plenty fast enough”,
>> while also arguing that a “change in attitude”, rather than new signage
>> or infrastructure, is key to ending road sectarianism.
>>
>> The Grand Tour and former Top Gear presenter was speaking on BBC Radio
>> 4’s Today programme (link is external) this morning, amid reports that
>> the government is considering draft road planning regulations that would
>> introduce a default 20mph speed limit on new or redesigned urban and residential streets.
>>
>> A draft version of Manual for Streets, the Department for Transport’s
>> planning document for residential areas, seen by the Sunday Times (link
>> is external) and set to be published early this year, says “the default
>> should be to work to a design speed limit of 20mph in urban environments”
>> and that “for residential streets, a maximum design speed of 20mph should
>> normally be an objective, with significantly lower speeds usually desirable”.
>>
>> According to the Sunday Times, other measures in the draft document
>> include creating a hierarchy of road users based on their environmental
>> impact, with cyclists and pedestrians at the top, followed by public
>> transport, and with petrol and diesel vehicles at the bottom.
>>
>> In England, a third of the population live in areas with 20mph speed
>> limits, while from September blanket 20mph zones will be introduced in
>> Wales on residential areas and streets busy with pedestrians, and where
>> street lights are fewer than 200 yards apart. Scotland is also set to
>> make 20mph the “norm” in built-up areas, with councils permitted to make
>> exceptions if they deem the area safe.
>>
>> On this morning’s Today programme, Neil Greig, director of policy and
>> research at the road safety charity, the Institute of Advanced Motorists,
>> argued that a default approach to 20mph on its own will not enhance road
>> safety or benefit active travel.
>>
>> “We’ve had longstanding concerns about a blanket approach to 20mph,”
>> Grieg told the BBC’s long-running news and current affairs show.
>>
>> “If you have to change the speed limit on a road, you have to change the
>> environmental cues to tell drivers what speed they should be safely
>> driving at. And the problem with simply changing to 20mph without
>> changing the road, is that drivers will continue to drive on at the previous speeds.
>>
>> “And that means you don’t have the safety benefits, and you don’t have
>> the active travel benefits of changing the environment to make it easier
>> to walk and cycle.”
>>
>> He continued: “For example, when you look at European countries like [the
>> Netherlands], they changed the whole cityscape – you have different
>> surfaces, obvious mixed use – it’s clear that you have pedestrians,
>> cyclists, and motorised vehicles sharing the same space.
>>
>> “And that’s the key here: it’s making it obvious that the shared space is
>> for everyone. But when you try to retrofit that onto our older cities,
>> those design cues aren’t there.
>>
>> “Simply changing the speed limit, changing the signs doesn’t have the
>> impact people think it will have.”
>>
>> While former Top Gear host May – a lifelong cyclist who appeared on
>> road.cc’s Drink at Your Desk series last May, decrying what he regards as
>> “feeble minded” road sectarianism – agreed with Greig’s belief that
>> changing signs isn’t enough to increase road safety, he argued that
>> driving at 20mph is more than adequate when travelling in most built-up areas.
>>
>> “I would agree that a blanket 20mph would probably be a little bit
>> knuckle-headed, but in a lot of urban places, city centres, towns, and
>> villages, actually 20mph makes perfect sense,” he told the Today programme.
>>
>> “I live in Hammersmith, in west London, which is an area where people
>> seem particularly fond of just running out into the street without
>> looking – which is their prerogative because they are people not machines.
>>
>> “20mph is plenty fast enough and 30 does feel too fast. And, to be
>> honest, if you could go around somewhere like London, or Manchester, or
>> Birmingham, at a constant 20mph, you’d be absolutely delighted.”
>>
>> When asked about the apparent need to change the ‘environmental cues’
>> before adjusting speed limits, May claimed that an over-proliferation of
>> rules and signage can “baffle” road users – and that a shift in attitude
>> is really what’s needed to make Britain’s roads safer.
>>
>> “He [Greig] has a point to some extent, but I do a lot of cycling around
>> London and I think we can become over obsessed with things like rules,
>> street furniture, signage, traffic lights and so on,” the journalist said.
>>
>> “They’ve been doing this with a bike lane near me; which I think is not
>> particularly well thought out, because you have a two-way road running
>> alongside a two-way bicycle lane, with lots of junctions off it. The
>> attempts to control it – with lights and signs and warnings – they’ve
>> proliferated to the point where it’s becoming baffling.”
>>
>> He continued: “All these things ultimately are cured by a change in
>> attitude, not a change in signage or infrastructure or colours, or anything like that.
>>
>> “That might be a stepping stone to ending road sectarianism and making
>> towns and cities nicer places for everyone to travel around in. But I
>> think ultimately it is about it, well: a mindful attitude. I hate to
>> sound very right-on, but it is.”
>>
>> May expressed this “right-on” approach to road safety in an interview
>> with road.cc last year, during which he described the us-and-them
>> attitudes of some road users as “b*ll*cks”.
>>
>> “The thing I can’t stand, I’ve railed against this before, [is] road
>> sectarianism – because it’s feeble minded,” he said.
>>
>> “Supposedly bus drivers hate taxi drivers and car drivers hate cyclists,
>> but cyclists hate people on electric scooters and so it goes on and on
>> and on. It’s a great story for the media because they like to get a
>> famous radio personality on there ranting about bikes and taxi driver
>> ranting about how he or she has to make a living.
>>
>> “It's a good story, but it's all b*ll*cks, frankly. People just need to
>> accept the fact that we’ve got enough common enemies. To be honest, if
>> you're riding a bike or driving car or using a motorcycle or a scooter,
>> things like potholes, bad road markings, badly parked things, roadworks,
>> bits being constantly dug up, all these things annoy all of us, and we
>> have those in common.
>>
>> “We don't need to fall out with each other about it,” he concluded. “I
>> find it very feeble.”
>>
>> May’s ambition to achieve a sense of commonality on the roads wasn’t
>> aided by GB News presenter Andrew Pierce’s contribution to the speed
>> limit discussion last night.
>>
>> Responding to the reports of a default 20mph limit, which he believes
>> will be implemented “to support cyclists”, the Daily Mail writer tweeted:
>> “Why do governments hate motorists and how much tax do cyclists pay? None.”
>>
>> While this week’s reports have sparked a somewhat contentious debate, a
>> spokesperson for the Department for Transport has said there are
>> currently “no plans to introduce default or national 20mph speed limits
>> in urban environments”.
>>
>> “We have always encouraged road designs that enable low speeds to
>> prioritise safety. It is for local authorities to consider setting 20mph
>> speed limits on streets where people and traffic mix,” the spokesperson said.
>>
>> https://road.cc/content/news/james-may-says-20mph-plenty-fast-enough-298955
>>
>
> Speed limits apply to cyclists,

No they don't.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:12:39 -0000 (UTC)
Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:

> Speed limits apply to cyclists

Most speed limits in public spaces apply only to motor vehicles.