Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:
> swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Most drivers remain unaware of Highway Code changes one year after they
>> were introduced, a survey suggests.
>>
>> A YouGov poll commissioned by charity Cycling UK indicated there has been
>> no discernible improvement in awareness of the correct distance for
>> overtaking cyclists when driving.
>>
>> The Highway Code, which contains advice and rules for people using
>> Britain’s roads, was amended on January 29 last year to provide more
>> protection for vulnerable road users.
>>
>> Among the changes, it stated:
>>
>> Motorists should leave a gap of at least 1.5m when driving at up to
>> 30mph, with a wider gap at higher speeds
>> Cyclists should ride in the centre of lanes on quieter roads, in
>> slower-moving traffic and when approaching junctions
>> New hierarchy of road users means someone driving has more
>> responsibility to watch out for people cycling, walking or riding a horse.
>>
>
>
> It would help if the information was correct:
>
>
> Rule 72
> Road positioning. When riding on the roads, there are two basic road
> positions you should adopt, depending on the situation.
>
> 1) Ride in the centre of your lane, to make yourself as clearly visible as
> possible, in the following situations
>
> on quiet roads or streets – if a faster vehicle comes up behind you, move
> to the left to enable them to overtake, if you can do so safely
> in slower-moving traffic - when the traffic around you starts to flow more
> freely, move over to the left if you can do so safely so that faster
> vehicles behind you can overtake
> at the approach to junctions or road narrowings where it would be unsafe
> for drivers to overtake you
> 2) When riding on busy roads, with vehicles moving faster than you, allow
> them to overtake where it is safe to do so whilst keeping at least 0.5
> metres away, and further where it is safer, from the kerb edge. Remember
> that traffic on most dual carriageways moves quickly. Take extra care
> crossing slip roads.

> With cycling advocates publishing incorrect information, is it any wonder
> there are idiot cyclists deliberating riding in the wrong position, causing
> altercations, and accidents?

Sorry about this, but…

APPLAUSE

--
Spike

The issue you run into is that "cyclist" vs. "people who cycle" distinction.. The UK / other countries with minimal cycling are very different from places where cycling is a mainstream mode of transport.

UK - our roads put off most possible "casual cyclists" because it doesn't feel safe (link is external), convenient (link is external) or pleasant/normal (link is external) to them - at least not compared with driving. So many - of the few people left who do cycle regularly for transport - are "cyclists". That is people with an active interest in cycling who might well read cycling publications. (Also in the UK - many cyclists [ either sense ] are also drivers, few drivers are regular cyclists).

In places where cycling is a normal transport mode simply because it's often the most convenient the vast majority of people aren't "cyclists" (link is external). It's just like most people wouldn't declare themselves to be "walkers" because they walk to the shops, or "runners" even though they occasionally break into a trot if they're in a hurry or even go for a weekly jog.

As ShutTheFrontDawes says our UK system is mostly predicated on "it's your personal responsibility to know the rules and follow them". That is problematic because of human nature - most people don't read manuals or rule books, and fewer remember them. There's also the asymmetry in the burdens of training and responsibility e.g. that required for people to safely use motor vehicles vs. that reasonable for a 10-year-old using a bicycle.

Compare and contrast a system which tries to make spaces for travelling (cycling, walking or driving) more "intuitive" or "self-explanatory and consistent" [1] (link is external) [2] (link is external). (Note that system still has training though - in that case integrated into the education system (link is external)).

Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote:
> Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:
>> swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Most drivers remain unaware of Highway Code changes one year after they
>>> were introduced, a survey suggests.
>>>
>>> A YouGov poll commissioned by charity Cycling UK indicated there has been
>>> no discernible improvement in awareness of the correct distance for
>>> overtaking cyclists when driving.
>>>
>>> The Highway Code, which contains advice and rules for people using
>>> Britain’s roads, was amended on January 29 last year to provide more
>>> protection for vulnerable road users.
>>>
>>> Among the changes, it stated:
>>>
>>> Motorists should leave a gap of at least 1.5m when driving at up to
>>> 30mph, with a wider gap at higher speeds
>>> Cyclists should ride in the centre of lanes on quieter roads, in
>>> slower-moving traffic and when approaching junctions
>>> New hierarchy of road users means someone driving has more
>>> responsibility to watch out for people cycling, walking or riding a horse.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It would help if the information was correct:
>>
>>
>> Rule 72
>> Road positioning. When riding on the roads, there are two basic road
>> positions you should adopt, depending on the situation.
>>
>> 1) Ride in the centre of your lane, to make yourself as clearly visible as
>> possible, in the following situations
>>
>> on quiet roads or streets – if a faster vehicle comes up behind you, move
>> to the left to enable them to overtake, if you can do so safely
>> in slower-moving traffic - when the traffic around you starts to flow more
>> freely, move over to the left if you can do so safely so that faster
>> vehicles behind you can overtake
>> at the approach to junctions or road narrowings where it would be unsafe
>> for drivers to overtake you
>> 2) When riding on busy roads, with vehicles moving faster than you, allow
>> them to overtake where it is safe to do so whilst keeping at least 0.5
>> metres away, and further where it is safer, from the kerb edge. Remember
>> that traffic on most dual carriageways moves quickly. Take extra care
>> crossing slip roads.
>
>> With cycling advocates publishing incorrect information, is it any wonder
>> there are idiot cyclists deliberating riding in the wrong position, causing
>> altercations, and accidents?
>
> Sorry about this, but…
>
> APPLAUSE
>
>

Oh, I think I can forgive you.

Just don’t make a habit of it.

😀

Actually I think by and large, it's very good. It's just that there is near zero policing of bad driving. So we have the majority who do generally drive well and treat others with respect, then we have a minority who are not interested in doing so, because there are no consequences to them of driving like arseholes.

Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:
> Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote:
>> Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:
>>> swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Most drivers remain unaware of Highway Code changes one year after they
>>>> were introduced, a survey suggests.
>>>>
>>>> A YouGov poll commissioned by charity Cycling UK indicated there has been
>>>> no discernible improvement in awareness of the correct distance for
>>>> overtaking cyclists when driving.
>>>>
>>>> The Highway Code, which contains advice and rules for people using
>>>> Britain’s roads, was amended on January 29 last year to provide more
>>>> protection for vulnerable road users.
>>>>
>>>> Among the changes, it stated:
>>>>
>>>> Motorists should leave a gap of at least 1.5m when driving at up to
>>>> 30mph, with a wider gap at higher speeds
>>>> Cyclists should ride in the centre of lanes on quieter roads, in
>>>> slower-moving traffic and when approaching junctions
>>>> New hierarchy of road users means someone driving has more
>>>> responsibility to watch out for people cycling, walking or riding a horse.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It would help if the information was correct:
>>>
>>>
>>> Rule 72
>>> Road positioning. When riding on the roads, there are two basic road
>>> positions you should adopt, depending on the situation.
>>>
>>> 1) Ride in the centre of your lane, to make yourself as clearly visible as
>>> possible, in the following situations
>>>
>>> on quiet roads or streets – if a faster vehicle comes up behind you, move
>>> to the left to enable them to overtake, if you can do so safely
>>> in slower-moving traffic - when the traffic around you starts to flow more
>>> freely, move over to the left if you can do so safely so that faster
>>> vehicles behind you can overtake
>>> at the approach to junctions or road narrowings where it would be unsafe
>>> for drivers to overtake you
>>> 2) When riding on busy roads, with vehicles moving faster than you, allow
>>> them to overtake where it is safe to do so whilst keeping at least 0.5
>>> metres away, and further where it is safer, from the kerb edge. Remember
>>> that traffic on most dual carriageways moves quickly. Take extra care
>>> crossing slip roads.
>>
>>> With cycling advocates publishing incorrect information, is it any wonder
>>> there are idiot cyclists deliberating riding in the wrong position, causing
>>> altercations, and accidents?
>>
>> Sorry about this, but…
>>
>> APPLAUSE
>>
>>
>
> Oh, I think I can forgive you.
>
> Just don’t make a habit of it.
>
> 😀

LOL

--
Spike

swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually I think by and large, it's very good. It's just that there is
> near zero policing of bad driving. So we have the majority who do
> generally drive well and treat others with respect, then we have a
> minority who are not interested in doing so, because there are no
> consequences to them of driving like arseholes.

There are so many modes of transport of which thst would be equally true.

--
Spike

On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 6:02:21 PM UTC, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
> Actually I think by and large, it's very good. It's just that there is near zero policing of bad driving. So we have the majority who do generally drive well and treat others with respect, then we have a minority who are not interested in doing so, because there are no consequences to them of driving like arseholes.

These are the best consequences. :-)

https://burnettwilliams.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2018_10_18_catastrophic_multi_car_accident_highway_strewn_with_smouldering_ruins_of_cars.jpg

swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 6:02:21 PM UTC, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Actually I think by and large, it's very good. It's just that there is
>> near zero policing of bad driving. So we have the majority who do
>> generally drive well and treat others with respect, then we have a
>> minority who are not interested in doing so, because there are no
>> consequences to them of driving like arseholes.
>
> These are the best consequences. :-)
>
> https://burnettwilliams.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2018_10_18_catastrophic_multi_car_accident_highway_strewn_with_smouldering_ruins_of_cars.jpg

<https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6OggK0OgOTk>

--
Spike

Good point, and thinking back - from what I can remember - it was probably similar for me. I think I was aware of HC because of different circumstances. I had previously done some cycling course at school (RoSPA?) and I think we'd already met the HC via that. Then my driving instructor happened to be a pedant so I was prompted to dig it out again - although I'm sure I made use of a theory test learning book too.

So yes it's entirely possible that many / most learners never see it (!)

Presumably the DVSA (link is external) book is drawn from stuff in the Highway code? I suppose it's not a given that's updated at the same time as the HC although naively one might expect so...

On 31/01/2023 06:12 am, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:

> Good point, and thinking back - from what I can remember - it was probably similar for me. I think I was aware of HC because of different circumstances. I had previously done some fairy-cycling course at school (RoSPA?) and I think we'd already met the HC via that. Then my driving instructor happened to be a pedant so I was prompted to dig it out again - although I'm sure I made use of a theory test learning book too.
>
> So yes it's entirely possible that many / most learners never see it (!)
>
> Presumably the DVSA (link is external) book is drawn from stuff in the Highway code? I suppose it's not a given that's updated at the same time as the HC although naively one might expect so...

Next week... the first lesson in deciphering Mason Gibberish.

More than half (52 percent) of those questioned by the AA had heard about the new rules but not studied them. One in 10 (10 percent) drivers aged 18-54 were completely unaware of the updates, compared with 5 percent of those aged 55 and above.

When asked to identify five correct statements included in the updated Highway Code from a list of 10, the majority of respondents did so correctly.

Tim Rankin, managing director of AA Accident Assist, said: “For many the updated Highway Code formalises safe and sensible roadcraft, however we are concerned that so many still haven’t read the rules.

“While we are pleased that many of the changes can be successfully recalled, we’d like more drivers to know the rules outright so they can keep themselves and others safe.

“It is in everyone’s interest to take every measure that helps avoid collisions and remove confusion from the road, so we urge those that still haven’t read the updated Code to do so as soon as possible.”

A communications drive was launched by the Department for Transport’s road safety offshoot Think! in mid-February.