On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>
>I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>would be by radio.

How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
the Far North lines)?

> I also assumed the trains could continue to run as
>long as the signals were operating, albeit verbal instructions would
>be more difficult to obtain.

How would the signals operate if the cables that control them have been severed?

On 07/02/2022 13:33, Recliner wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>
>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>> trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>> would be by radio.
>
> How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
> the Far North lines)?

The same way a fail-safe signalling system just operates by cable:
control sends an authorisation to proceed and hopes it gets through.
If it isn't received, the train is delayed but no one gets hurt.

>> I also assumed the trains could continue to run as
>> long as the signals were operating, albeit verbal instructions would
>> be more difficult to obtain.
>
> How would the signals operate if the cables that control them have been severed?
>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 13:54:02 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:

>On 07/02/2022 13:33, Recliner wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>
>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>> trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>> would be by radio.
>>
>> How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
>> the Far North lines)?
>
>The same way a fail-safe signalling system just operates by cable:
>control sends an authorisation to proceed and hopes it gets through.
>If it isn't received, the train is delayed but no one gets hurt.

That would be the fall back after a signal failure, not how the system operates routinely.

On 07/02/2022 13:56, Recliner wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 13:54:02 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> On 07/02/2022 13:33, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>
>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>> trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>> would be by radio.
>>>
>>> How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
>>> the Far North lines)?
>>
>> The same way a fail-safe signalling system just operates by cable:
>> control sends an authorisation to proceed and hopes it gets through.
>> If it isn't received, the train is delayed but no one gets hurt.
>
> That would be the fall back after a signal failure, not how the system operates routinely.

Agreed, but the fallback isn't unsafe, just more prone to disruption.

On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 15:29:31 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:33:24 +0000, Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>
>>>I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>would be by radio.
>>
>>How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
>>the Far North lines)?
>>
>>> I also assumed the trains could continue to run as
>>>long as the signals were operating, albeit verbal instructions would
>>>be more difficult to obtain.
>>
>>How would the signals operate if the cables that control them have been severed?
>
>I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>affect the colour lights as well?

I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?

On 07/02/2022 15:34, Recliner wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 15:29:31 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:33:24 +0000, Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>
>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>> trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>> would be by radio.
>>>
>>> How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
>>> the Far North lines)?
>>>
>>>> I also assumed the trains could continue to run as
>>>> long as the signals were operating, albeit verbal instructions would
>>>> be more difficult to obtain.
>>>
>>> How would the signals operate if the cables that control them have been severed?
>>
>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>> affect the colour lights as well?
>
> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?

It all depends on GSM-R these days, AIUI.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 15:34:17 +0000, Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 15:29:31 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:33:24 +0000, Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>> trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>
>>>> How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by
>>>> radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
>>>> the Far North lines)?
>>>>
>>>>> I also assumed the trains could continue to run as
>>>>> long as the signals were operating, albeit verbal instructions would
>>>>> be more difficult to obtain.
>>>>
>>>> How would the signals operate if the cables that control them have been severed?
>>>
>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>
>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>
> The BBC article (which I posted) specifically said: 'Rail services
> disrupted by communications failure'.
>

I know, but I assumed that was the data network that controls the
signalling.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 15:29:31 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:33:24 +0000, Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>
>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>> trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>> would be by radio.
>>>
>>> How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by
>>> radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
>>> the Far North lines)?
>>>
>>>> I also assumed the trains could continue to run as
>>>> long as the signals were operating, albeit verbal instructions would
>>>> be more difficult to obtain.
>>>
>>> How would the signals operate if the cables that control them have been severed?
>>
>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>> affect the colour lights as well?
>
> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>

Emergency protection now depends on GSM-R, particularly in areas with train
detection by axle counters.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 15:29:31 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:33:24 +0000, Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>> trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>
>>>> How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by
>>>> radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
>>>> the Far North lines)?
>>>>
>>>>> I also assumed the trains could continue to run as
>>>>> long as the signals were operating, albeit verbal instructions would
>>>>> be more difficult to obtain.
>>>>
>>>> How would the signals operate if the cables that control them have been severed?
>>>
>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>
>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>
>
> Emergency protection now depends on GSM-R, particularly in areas with train
> detection by axle counters.
>

So does that mean that no trains can safely run if the GSM-R system is
down?

On 07/02/2022 22:56, Recliner wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 15:29:31 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:33:24 +0000, Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>>> trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>>
>>>>> How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by
>>>>> radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
>>>>> the Far North lines)?
>>>>>
>>>>>> I also assumed the trains could continue to run as
>>>>>> long as the signals were operating, albeit verbal instructions would
>>>>>> be more difficult to obtain.
>>>>>
>>>>> How would the signals operate if the cables that control them have been severed?
>>>>
>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>
>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>
>>
>> Emergency protection now depends on GSM-R, particularly in areas with train
>> detection by axle counters.
>>
>
> So does that mean that no trains can safely run if the GSM-R system is
> down?

Not dissimilar to the comms on LUL, AIUI.

On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>
>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>> affect the colour lights as well?
>
> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?

A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 22:59:05 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 07/02/2022 22:56, Recliner wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 15:29:31 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:33:24 +0000, Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>>>> trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by
>>>>>> radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
>>>>>> the Far North lines)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also assumed the trains could continue to run as
>>>>>>> long as the signals were operating, albeit verbal instructions would
>>>>>>> be more difficult to obtain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How would the signals operate if the cables that control them have been severed?
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>
>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Emergency protection now depends on GSM-R, particularly in areas with train
>>> detection by axle counters.
>>>
>>
>> So does that mean that no trains can safely run if the GSM-R system is
>> down?
>
>Not dissimilar to the comms on LUL, AIUI.

Is that so? Can LU trains not run if voice comms break down? The fail-safe signalling/tripcock system is completely
separate.

On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>
>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>
>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>
> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.

I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??

--
Colin

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 10:57:26 +0000, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 22:59:05 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 07/02/2022 22:56, Recliner wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 15:29:31 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:33:24 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:28:57 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>>>>> trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How could an automated, fail-safe signalling system just operate by
>>>>>>> radio (yes, I do know about the RETB system used on
>>>>>>> the Far North lines)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also assumed the trains could continue to run as
>>>>>>>> long as the signals were operating, albeit verbal instructions would
>>>>>>>> be more difficult to obtain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How would the signals operate if the cables that control them have been severed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Emergency protection now depends on GSM-R, particularly in areas with train
>>>> detection by axle counters.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So does that mean that no trains can safely run if the GSM-R system is
>>> down?
>>
>>Not dissimilar to the comms on LUL, AIUI.
>
>Is that so? Can LU trains not run if voice comms break down? The fail-safe signalling/tripcock system is completely
>separate.
>
In modern terms the tripcock system isn't really failsafe because it
still relies on the Mk.1 human to do things correctly; it can fail
wrong side if a tripcock is left in the inoperative position (as would
have occurred in the past with wrong line working, nowadays the trains
just don't run and are replaced by buses) or a driver simply resets it
and carries on as ISTR has featured in several past accidents.

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>
>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>
>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>
>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>
> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>

Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.

Some examples:

<https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
<https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
<https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
<https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>

And some international examples:

<https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
<https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>
>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>
>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>
>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>
>
> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>
>
> Some examples:
>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>
> And some international examples:
>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver

So, then is the plan in the UK to completely eliminate waysides?

Metro-North trains now have cab signals as well as positive train
control (PTC), the latter of which has truly limited speeds.

PTC speeds are now only 80, 60 and 30 miles. In some areas, where the
speed was earlier 70 miles, it is now 60 miles.

Crossing the Harlem River Bridge is now 30 milse, whereas earlier it was
35 miles.

The worst, however, is between Milford and New Haven Union. Earlier the
speed was closer to 95 miles, but is now not more than 80.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>
>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>
>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>
>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>
> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network? My understanding was
> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>

Doesn’t GSM-R have an emergency button in the cab to allow an, umm,
emergency to be communicated to the signaller and if necessary to bring all
trains in the area to a halt? Without the in cab radio working you remove a
safety feature that might not be often used, but could have very serious
consequences if missing.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 17:50:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>
>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>
>>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network? My understanding was
>>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>>
>> Doesn’t GSM-R have an emergency button in the cab to allow an, umm,
>> emergency to be communicated to the signaller and if necessary to bring all
>> trains in the area to a halt? Without the in cab radio working you remove a
>> safety feature that might not be often used, but could have very serious
>> consequences if missing.
>
> What about all the passengers who faced disruption all day, quite
> possibly having to drive to work and home again at risk of an
> accident?
>
Car accidents are acceptable to public opinion. Major train crashes are
not.

On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>
>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>
>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>
>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>
>
> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>
>
> Some examples:
>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>
> And some international examples:
>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver

So traditional signals are being / have been phased out? I am aware that
some lines (e.g. to Oban) have moved to radio signalling and, last time
I passed, the traditional signals had been marked as out of use. Is this
the new norm?

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>
>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>
>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>
>>
>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>
>>
>> Some examples:
>>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>>
>> And some international examples:
>>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
> So traditional signals are being / have been phased out? I am aware that
> some lines (e.g. to Oban) have moved to radio signalling and, last time
> I passed, the traditional signals had been marked as out of use. Is this
> the new norm?
>

Yes, very much so. Large parts of the London Underground now operate
without lineside signals, as does the Cambrian line. The southern end of
the ECML is currently being converted to ETCS Level 2:

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/ertms-on-the-east-coast-main-line/

On 09/02/2022 23:07, Recliner wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>
>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>
>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>
>>>
>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Some examples:
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>>>
>>> And some international examples:
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>> So traditional signals are being / have been phased out? I am aware that
>> some lines (e.g. to Oban) have moved to radio signalling and, last time
>> I passed, the traditional signals had been marked as out of use. Is this
>> the new norm?
>>
>
> Yes, very much so. Large parts of the London Underground now operate
> without lineside signals, as does the Cambrian line. The southern end of
> the ECML is currently being converted to ETCS Level 2:
>
> https://www.railengineer.co.uk/ertms-on-the-east-coast-main-line/
>
I would hope that they at least retain waysides at danger sites, such as
at draw bridges or at points -- even if it is a simple stop and proceed.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/02/2022 23:07, Recliner wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some examples:
>>>>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>>>>
>>>> And some international examples:
>>>>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>> So traditional signals are being / have been phased out? I am aware that
>>> some lines (e.g. to Oban) have moved to radio signalling and, last time
>>> I passed, the traditional signals had been marked as out of use. Is this
>>> the new norm?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, very much so. Large parts of the London Underground now operate
>> without lineside signals, as does the Cambrian line. The southern end of
>> the ECML is currently being converted to ETCS Level 2:
>>
>> https://www.railengineer.co.uk/ertms-on-the-east-coast-main-line/
>>
> I would hope that they at least retain waysides at danger sites, such as
> at draw bridges or at points -- even if it is a simple stop and proceed.
>

No, all lineside signals are first covered, and eventually removed. It's
much safer than lineside signalling. HS1 has operated this way for many
years, and all high speed routes are the same.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>
>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>
>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>
>>
>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>
>>
>> Some examples:
>>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>>
>> And some international examples:
>>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>>
>
> So, then is the plan in the UK to completely eliminate waysides?
>
>

So far in the UK, in-cab signalling only applies to HS1, Thameslink core,
Crossrail core, Heathrow branch and the Cambrian lines (plus RETB-fitted
lines). And some LU lines.

I believe all recent resignalling schemes are done in such a way that they
can in future be converted to ETCS (that's what NR mean when they talk
about 'digital signalling'); there's also the possibility of ETCS being
overlaid on lines which retain conventional signals, allowing both fitted
and unfitted trains to run (but allowing more flexibility for the fitted
trains, eg higher linespeed or shorter sections).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>
>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>
>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>
>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>
> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network?

No.

> My understanding was
> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>

GSM-R is now used for emergency protection, ie to stop oncoming trains in
the event of an obstruction etc.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>
>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>
>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>
>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>
>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network? My understanding was
>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>
>
> Doesn’t GSM-R have an emergency button in the cab to allow an, umm,
> emergency to be communicated to the signaller and if necessary to bring all
> trains in the area to a halt? Without the in cab radio working you remove a
> safety feature that might not be often used, but could have very serious
> consequences if missing.
>
>

Not "if necessary" bring all trains in the area to a halt; using the big
red button *automatically* sends an emergency stop signal to trains in the
relevant [*] geographical area!

[*] and sometimes irrelevant; eg GWML<->NLL/WLL in the Old Oak/North Pole
area