In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at 13:28:57 on
Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>
>I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>would be by radio.

But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected cellsites
just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically sited
next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre laid
alongside the track

Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it wasn't)
to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than having to
dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the earth wire
at the top of electricity pylons).

However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of the
way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
bubble.

However, the organisation I was working with at the time installed one
of the first private 'dark fibre' networks in the docklands by dipping
it through the water, thereby linking up premises built near sundry
docksides themselves, rather than having to buy the bandwidth from
traditional telcos.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/02/2022 06:15, Roland Perry wrote:
> However, the organisation I was working with at the time installed one
> of the first private 'dark fibre' networks in the docklands by dipping
> it through the water, thereby linking up premises built near sundry
> docksides themselves, rather than having to buy the bandwidth from
> traditional telcos.

I believe that was done to link gun batteries etc around Scapa Flow
during WWII and the submarine cable reused postwar by GPO / BT.

In message <01d40hdp7jjk9hr3vf81dnfhkcqfqqvs6k@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17 on
Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:15:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at 13:28:57 on
>>Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>
>>>I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>trains. I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>would be by radio.
>>
>>But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected cellsites
>>just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
>>rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically sited
>>next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre laid
>>alongside the track
>>
>>Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
>>lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it wasn't)
>>to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than having to
>>dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the earth wire
>>at the top of electricity pylons).
>>
>One compnan that made a success of comms along railway lines was
>Sprint, formerly known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
>Telecommunications.

I didn't know that's where the name came from.

>>However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of the
>>way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
>>bubble.
>>
>How much traction did it get? I remember one of my canal walks, I
>think along the Grand Union in West London. They laid a few miles of
>fibre under the towpath there.

Yes, there were dribs and drabs, and that's a typical location which
might have been in phase 1. Not sure they ever got to phases 2+
--
Roland Perry

On 08/02/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <01d40hdp7jjk9hr3vf81dnfhkcqfqqvs6k@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17 on
> Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:15:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at 13:28:57 on
>>> Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>
>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>> trains.  I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>> would be by radio.
>>>
>>> But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected cellsites
>>> just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
>>> rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically sited
>>> next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre laid
>>> alongside the track
>>>
>>> Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
>>> lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it wasn't)
>>> to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than having to
>>> dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the earth wire
>>> at the top of electricity pylons).
>>>
>> One compnan that made a success of comms along railway lines was
>> Sprint, formerly known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
>> Telecommunications.
>
> I didn't know that's where the name came from.
>
>>> However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of the
>>> way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
>>> bubble.
>>>
>> How much traction did it get? I remember one of my canal walks, I
>> think along the Grand Union in West London. They laid a few miles of
>> fibre under the towpath there.
>
> Yes, there were dribs and drabs, and that's a typical location which
> might have been in phase 1. Not sure they ever got to phases 2+

Didn't Backbone make use of railway routes for its cables? Though that
predates fibre by quite a margin.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <sttg0b$2m9$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:47 on Tue, 8 Feb 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 08/02/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <01d40hdp7jjk9hr3vf81dnfhkcqfqqvs6k@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17
>>on Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:15:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at 13:28:57 on
>>>> Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>> trains.  I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>
>>>> But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected cellsites
>>>> just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
>>>> rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically sited
>>>> next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre laid
>>>> alongside the track
>>>>
>>>> Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
>>>> lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it wasn't)
>>>> to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than having to
>>>> dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the earth wire
>>>> at the top of electricity pylons).
>>>>
>>> One compnan that made a success of comms along railway lines was
>>> Sprint, formerly known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
>>> Telecommunications.
>> I didn't know that's where the name came from.
>>
>>>> However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of
>>>>the
>>>> way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
>>>> bubble.
>>>>
>>> How much traction did it get? I remember one of my canal walks, I
>>> think along the Grand Union in West London. They laid a few miles of
>>> fibre under the towpath there.

>> Yes, there were dribs and drabs, and that's a typical location which
>>might have been in phase 1. Not sure they ever got to phases 2+
>
>Didn't Backbone

Never heard of it.

>make use of railway routes for its cables? Though that predates fibre
>by quite a margin.

Without looking it up[1], I think the original project was something
like BRT (British Rail Telecoms). Racal had a hand in it early on, and
they were the original Vodafone promoter.

[1] Oh why not... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Telecommun
ications> see mentions of Vodafone.
--
Roland Perry

In message <l8h40h9qra9rhm3tpkntr8hcmfov5c9g6r@4ax.com>, at 10:25:50 on
Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 10:17:47 +0000, Graeme Wall
><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 08/02/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <01d40hdp7jjk9hr3vf81dnfhkcqfqqvs6k@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17 on
>>> Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:15:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at 13:28:57 on
>>>>> Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>>> trains.  I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected cellsites
>>>>> just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
>>>>> rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically sited
>>>>> next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre laid
>>>>> alongside the track
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
>>>>> lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it wasn't)
>>>>> to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than having to
>>>>> dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the earth wire
>>>>> at the top of electricity pylons).
>>>>>
>>>> One compnan that made a success of comms along railway lines was
>>>> Sprint, formerly known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
>>>> Telecommunications.
>>>
>>> I didn't know that's where the name came from.
>>>
>>>>> However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of the
>>>>> way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
>>>>> bubble.
>>>>>
>>>> How much traction did it get? I remember one of my canal walks, I
>>>> think along the Grand Union in West London. They laid a few miles of
>>>> fibre under the towpath there.
>>>
>>> Yes, there were dribs and drabs, and that's a typical location which
>>> might have been in phase 1. Not sure they ever got to phases 2+
>>
>>Didn't Backbone make use of railway routes for its cables? Though that
>>predates fibre by quite a margin.
>
>I thought London Underground hosted a lot of cables.

Mainly their own traction power. COLT, on the other hand, used old
hydraulic pipes for communications cables, but soon spread further
afield.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/02/2022 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sttg0b$2m9$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:47 on Tue, 8 Feb 2022,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 08/02/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <01d40hdp7jjk9hr3vf81dnfhkcqfqqvs6k@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17
>>> on Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:15:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at 13:28:57 on
>>>>> Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>>> trains.  I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected cellsites
>>>>> just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
>>>>> rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically sited
>>>>> next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre laid
>>>>> alongside the track
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
>>>>> lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it wasn't)
>>>>> to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than having to
>>>>> dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the earth wire
>>>>> at the top of electricity pylons).
>>>>>
>>>> One compnan that made a success of comms along railway lines was
>>>> Sprint, formerly known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
>>>> Telecommunications.
>>> I didn't know that's where the name came from.
>>>
>>>>> However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of
>>>>> the
>>>>> way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
>>>>> bubble.
>>>>>
>>>> How much traction did it get? I remember one of my canal walks, I
>>>> think along the Grand Union in West London. They laid a few miles of
>>>> fibre under the towpath there.
>
>>> Yes, there were dribs and drabs, and that's a typical location which
>>> might have been in phase 1. Not sure they ever got to phases 2+
>>
>> Didn't Backbone
>
> Never heard of it.
>
<https://www.subbrit.org.uk/features/backbone-microwave-relay-network/>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 08/02/2022 13:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 08/02/2022 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sttg0b$2m9$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:47 on Tue, 8 Feb 2022,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 08/02/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <01d40hdp7jjk9hr3vf81dnfhkcqfqqvs6k@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17
>>>> on  Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:15:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>> 13:28:57 on
>>>>>> Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the
>>>>>>> running of
>>>>>>> trains.  I assumed communication between the signaller and the
>>>>>>> driver
>>>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected
>>>>>> cellsites
>>>>>> just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
>>>>>> rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically
>>>>>> sited
>>>>>> next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre
>>>>>> laid
>>>>>> alongside the track
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
>>>>>> lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it
>>>>>> wasn't)
>>>>>> to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than
>>>>>> having to
>>>>>> dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the
>>>>>> earth wire
>>>>>> at the top of electricity pylons).
>>>>>>
>>>>> One compnan that made a success of comms along railway lines was
>>>>> Sprint, formerly known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
>>>>> Telecommunications.
>>>>   I didn't know that's where the name came from.
>>>>
>>>>>> However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
>>>>>> bubble.
>>>>>>
>>>>> How much traction did it get? I remember one of my canal walks, I
>>>>> think along the Grand Union in West London. They laid a few miles of
>>>>> fibre under the towpath there.
>>
>>>>   Yes, there were dribs and drabs, and that's a typical location which
>>>> might have been in phase 1. Not sure they ever got to phases 2+
>>>
>>> Didn't Backbone
>>
>> Never heard of it.
>>
> <https://www.subbrit.org.uk/features/backbone-microwave-relay-network/>

As a follow up, that page references a book entitled: “Roland Perry -
the Fifth Man”

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 08/02/2022 10:17, Graeme Wall wrote:
> Didn't Backbone make use of railway routes for its cables? Though that
> predates fibre by quite a margin.

Do you mean "Backbone", the BT microwave system used by the telephone
network, ROTOR, TV etc? That was microwave and predated fibre.

On 08/02/2022 13:14, MB wrote:
> On 08/02/2022 10:17, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> Didn't Backbone make use of railway routes for its cables? Though that
>> predates fibre by quite a margin.
>
> Do you mean "Backbone", the BT microwave system used by the telephone
> network, ROTOR, TV  etc?  That was microwave and predated fibre.
>

I was under the impression that the predecessor to the microwave system
predicated the use of cables run along railway rights of way.
Unfortunately I've lost my copy of Lawrie's book, Beneath the City
Streets, which is where i first came across it.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 08/02/2022 06:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>> However, the organisation I was working with at the time installed one
>> of the first private 'dark fibre' networks in the docklands by dipping
>> it through the water, thereby linking up premises built near sundry
>> docksides themselves, rather than having to buy the bandwidth from
>> traditional telcos.
>
> I believe that was done to link gun batteries etc around Scapa Flow
> during WWII and the submarine cable reused postwar by GPO / BT.

Using optical fibre?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 10:17:47 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 08/02/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <01d40hdp7jjk9hr3vf81dnfhkcqfqqvs6k@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17 on
>>> Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:15:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at 13:28:57 on
>>>>> Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>>> trains.  I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected cellsites
>>>>> just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
>>>>> rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically sited
>>>>> next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre laid
>>>>> alongside the track
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
>>>>> lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it wasn't)
>>>>> to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than having to
>>>>> dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the earth wire
>>>>> at the top of electricity pylons).
>>>>>
>>>> One compnan that made a success of comms along railway lines was
>>>> Sprint, formerly known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
>>>> Telecommunications.
>>>
>>> I didn't know that's where the name came from.
>>>
>>>>> However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of the
>>>>> way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
>>>>> bubble.
>>>>>
>>>> How much traction did it get? I remember one of my canal walks, I
>>>> think along the Grand Union in West London. They laid a few miles of
>>>> fibre under the towpath there.
>>>
>>> Yes, there were dribs and drabs, and that's a typical location which
>>> might have been in phase 1. Not sure they ever got to phases 2+
>>
>> Didn't Backbone make use of railway routes for its cables? Though that
>> predates fibre by quite a margin.
>
> I thought London Underground hosted a lot of cables.

Mercury used to use fibre laid along the railway between Edinburgh and
Newcastle. They probably used it elsewhere too but I remember outages
reportedly caused by people nicking the stuff - throw a couple of loops
over the rails some distance apart and wait for a train; loop one end
around the tow ball on your van and drive away. It was assumed that they
assumed it was copper.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <sttpq4$2su$3@dont-email.me>, at 13:05:08 on Tue, 8 Feb 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 08/02/2022 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sttg0b$2m9$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:47 on Tue, 8 Feb 2022,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 08/02/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <01d40hdp7jjk9hr3vf81dnfhkcqfqqvs6k@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17
>>>> on Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:15:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at 13:28:57 on
>>>>>> Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>>>> trains.  I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected cellsites
>>>>>> just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
>>>>>> rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically sited
>>>>>> next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre laid
>>>>>> alongside the track
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
>>>>>> lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it wasn't)
>>>>>> to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than having to
>>>>>> dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the earth wire
>>>>>> at the top of electricity pylons).
>>>>>>
>>>>> One compnan that made a success of comms along railway lines was
>>>>> Sprint, formerly known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
>>>>> Telecommunications.
>>>> I didn't know that's where the name came from.
>>>>
>>>>>> However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
>>>>>> bubble.
>>>>>>
>>>>> How much traction did it get? I remember one of my canal walks, I
>>>>> think along the Grand Union in West London. They laid a few miles of
>>>>> fibre under the towpath there.
>>
>>>> Yes, there were dribs and drabs, and that's a typical location
>>>>which
>>>> might have been in phase 1. Not sure they ever got to phases 2+
>>>
>>> Didn't Backbone

>> Never heard of it.
>>
><https://www.subbrit.org.uk/features/backbone-microwave-relay-network/>

While I've had many conversations with Duncan Campbell [oh dear, Boltar
alert!], I still don't recall that name being used.

Ahem: "it is interesting to note a suggestion made in a book called
'Roland Perry - the Fifth Man' which speculates that Baron
Rothschild was the fifth man in the Cambridge spy ring."

That's a bit muddled. The book in question was *written* by my namesake,
who is an Australian writer better known for books about cricketing.

We did meet up once in London [oh dear, second Boltar alert] maybe at
the PCW8256 launch. And one of the things about that project was the
word processing software, which was essentially a work-alike of that
earlier devised for the Data Recall Diamond word processor, was almost
called Zircon - an allusion to a cheaper form of Diamond. And in the
interim the alleged spy-satellite story broke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zircon_affair

"In November 1985 the Scottish investigative journalist Duncan
Campbell was commissioned by BBC Scotland to present and research a
six part, half-hour documentary series called Secret Society..."

The software got the alternative name of Locoscript, named after
Locomotive Software, who specialised in optimising their products for
speed, and in the vernacular of the time "ran like a train". Their BASIC
was of course https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallard_BASIC

Oh deary me, I get another mention there [and Boltar's head explodes]
--
Roland Perry

On 08/02/2022 13:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
> I was under the impression that the predecessor to the microwave system
> predicated the use of cables run along railway rights of way.
> Unfortunately I've lost my copy of Lawrie's book, Beneath the City
> Streets, which is where i first came across it.

There was a coaxial cable laid between London and Birmingham (I think),
it was used for Meaconing. Not seen anything to suggest that it
followed the railway, I presume they used existing cable ducts / poles.

Looking on the archive suggests there were several coaxial routes before
the war.

Measurements on a Sample of the Manchester-Newcastle Coaxial Cable

On 08/02/2022 14:16, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Using optical fibre?

Very unlikely!

Some coming ashore here

https://www.flickr.com/photos/doffcocker/6781872029/in/album-72157629081311723/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/doffcocker/6781874907/in/album-72157629081311723/

From the date, they seem to have been re-layed but could just have
protection improved. I was told there was a sort of "ring" that went to
"The Black House".

https://www.flickr.com/photos/doffcocker/6781877171/in/album-72157629081311723/

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 14:16:07 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 08/02/2022 06:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> However, the organisation I was working with at the time installed one
>>>> of the first private 'dark fibre' networks in the docklands by dipping
>>>> it through the water, thereby linking up premises built near sundry
>>>> docksides themselves, rather than having to buy the bandwidth from
>>>> traditional telcos.
>>>
>>> I believe that was done to link gun batteries etc around Scapa Flow
>>> during WWII and the submarine cable reused postwar by GPO / BT.
>>
>> Using optical fibre?
>>
> Of course. Left over from WW1 :-)

Lit by a shuttered acetylene lamp using encrypted Morse code, I expect,
then. :-)

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <l8h40h9qra9rhm3tpkntr8hcmfov5c9g6r@4ax.com>, at 10:25:50 on
> Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 10:17:47 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/02/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <01d40hdp7jjk9hr3vf81dnfhkcqfqqvs6k@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17 on
>>>> Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:15:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at 13:28:57 on
>>>>>> Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>>>> trains.  I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected cellsites
>>>>>> just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
>>>>>> rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically sited
>>>>>> next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre laid
>>>>>> alongside the track
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
>>>>>> lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it wasn't)
>>>>>> to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than having to
>>>>>> dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the earth wire
>>>>>> at the top of electricity pylons).
>>>>>>
>>>>> One compnan that made a success of comms along railway lines was
>>>>> Sprint, formerly known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
>>>>> Telecommunications.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't know that's where the name came from.
>>>>
>>>>>> However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of the
>>>>>> way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
>>>>>> bubble.
>>>>>>
>>>>> How much traction did it get? I remember one of my canal walks, I
>>>>> think along the Grand Union in West London. They laid a few miles of
>>>>> fibre under the towpath there.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there were dribs and drabs, and that's a typical location which
>>>> might have been in phase 1. Not sure they ever got to phases 2+
>>>
>>> Didn't Backbone make use of railway routes for its cables? Though that
>>> predates fibre by quite a margin.
>>
>> I thought London Underground hosted a lot of cables.
>
> Mainly their own traction power. COLT, on the other hand, used old
> hydraulic pipes for communications cables, but soon spread further
> afield.

Change the title from London Underground to London Transport, although it
may no longer have been called that by the era we are referring to and you
bring in quite a few ducts that once carried traction power from their
power stations like Lots Road to substations and then to the pavement side
section boxes that supplied a section of Tram or Trolleybus overhead ( and
I think tram conduit as well).
ISTR that a lot of these lay unused till the expansion of communication
networks in recent times
made them asset that could not be ignored.

60 years after the Trolleys in London were withdrawn the odd feeder box
survives into recent times.
This forlorn one was still in place when google went by, it once served a
Trolley bus turning point
and stood untouched while the area around changed.

< https://goo.gl/maps/f2NHgHGDQ5pHYJYf6>

A larger one in better condition is on a street corner in Kennington

<https://goo.gl/maps/WsBc8JJCypNVvW8F7 >

Some as well as switches for the traction current did have a phone inside
a compartment mounted on top which was connected to phone cables that were
part of LTs internal network.

GH

On 10/02/2022 01:03, Marland wrote:
> A larger one in better condition is on a street corner in Kennington
>
> <https://goo.gl/maps/WsBc8JJCypNVvW8F7 >

Thread convergence, note the Stick No Bills sign on the pillar next to it.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2022 01:03:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <l8h40h9qra9rhm3tpkntr8hcmfov5c9g6r@4ax.com>, at 10:25:50 on
>>> Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 10:17:47 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 08/02/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <01d40hdp7jjk9hr3vf81dnfhkcqfqqvs6k@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17 on
>>>>>> Tue, 8 Feb 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:15:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <1d720hp7oa31bb8roj30cuaq1mf18bgk65@4ax.com>, at 13:28:57 on
>>>>>>>> Mon, 7 Feb 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60287531
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't realise fibre optic cable was so important to the running of
>>>>>>>>> trains.  I assumed communication between the signaller and the driver
>>>>>>>>> would be by radio.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But not by walkie-talkie type radio. GSM-R has interconnected cellsites
>>>>>>>> just like we mere mortal use. Sometimes those are linked by microwave
>>>>>>>> rather than cables, but because GSM-R base stations are typically sited
>>>>>>>> next to the track, it's pretty simple to connect them up by fibre laid
>>>>>>>> alongside the track
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Back in the day, there was a proposal to use fibre laid along railway
>>>>>>>> lines (much of which was already in place) and canals (where it wasn't)
>>>>>>>> to form a backbone for wholesale Internet access - rather than having to
>>>>>>>> dig up the grass verges next to roads, or string it along the earth wire
>>>>>>>> at the top of electricity pylons).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One compnan that made a success of comms along railway lines was
>>>>>>> Sprint, formerly known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
>>>>>>> Telecommunications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't know that's where the name came from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, it never got the traction it deserved, partly because of the
>>>>>>>> way assets were passed round like hot potatoes during the Dot-Com
>>>>>>>> bubble.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How much traction did it get? I remember one of my canal walks, I
>>>>>>> think along the Grand Union in West London. They laid a few miles of
>>>>>>> fibre under the towpath there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, there were dribs and drabs, and that's a typical location which
>>>>>> might have been in phase 1. Not sure they ever got to phases 2+
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't Backbone make use of railway routes for its cables? Though that
>>>>> predates fibre by quite a margin.
>>>>
>>>> I thought London Underground hosted a lot of cables.
>>>
>>> Mainly their own traction power. COLT, on the other hand, used old
>>> hydraulic pipes for communications cables, but soon spread further
>>> afield.
>>
>> Change the title from London Underground to London Transport, although it
>> may no longer have been called that by the era we are referring to and you
>> bring in quite a few ducts that once carried traction power from their
>> power stations like Lots Road to substations and then to the pavement side
>> section boxes that supplied a section of Tram or Trolleybus overhead ( and
>> I think tram conduit as well).
>> ISTR that a lot of these lay unused till the expansion of communication
>> networks in recent times
>> made them asset that could not be ignored.
>>
>> 60 years after the Trolleys in London were withdrawn the odd feeder box
>> survives into recent times.
>> This forlorn one was still in place when google went by, it once served a
>> Trolley bus turning point
>> and stood untouched while the area around changed.
>>
>> < https://goo.gl/maps/f2NHgHGDQ5pHYJYf6>
>>
>> A larger one in better condition is on a street corner in Kennington
>>
>> <https://goo.gl/maps/WsBc8JJCypNVvW8F7 >
>>
>> Some as well as switches for the traction current did have a phone inside
>> a compartment mounted on top which was connected to phone cables that were
>> part of LTs internal network.
>>
> Forgive my shameful ignorance but I don't know what I am looking for
> here.
>

These <https://twitter.com/annanoyddryver/status/1491763360500789312?s=21>;
I've included a better view of the second one.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2022 01:03:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>

>>>> I thought London Underground hosted a lot of cables.
>>>
>>> Mainly their own traction power. COLT, on the other hand, used old
>>> hydraulic pipes for communications cables, but soon spread further
>>> afield.
>>
>> Change the title from London Underground to London Transport, although it
>> may no longer have been called that by the era we are referring to and you
>> bring in quite a few ducts that once carried traction power from their
>> power stations like Lots Road to substations and then to the pavement side
>> section boxes that supplied a section of Tram or Trolleybus overhead ( and
>> I think tram conduit as well).
>> ISTR that a lot of these lay unused till the expansion of communication
>> networks in recent times
>> made them asset that could not be ignored.
>>
>> 60 years after the Trolleys in London were withdrawn the odd feeder box
>> survives into recent times.
>> This forlorn one was still in place when google went by, it once served a
>> Trolley bus turning point
>> and stood untouched while the area around changed.
>>
>> < https://goo.gl/maps/f2NHgHGDQ5pHYJYf6>
>>
>> A larger one in better condition is on a street corner in Kennington
>>
>> <https://goo.gl/maps/WsBc8JJCypNVvW8F7 >
>>
>> Some as well as switches for the traction current did have a phone inside
>> a compartment mounted on top which was connected to phone cables that were
>> part of LTs internal network.
>>
> Forgive my shameful ignorance but I don't know what I am looking for
> here.
>

Something like this .

<https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/infrastructure/item/1995-248>

or this
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/23875695@N06/8479856876/>

At the moment google maps, seems to be having one of its issues with
linking the main picture
via NewsTap and only posts the smaller view, so you might have to expand
that and look around a bit.

Most towns that had tramways and Trolleybuses had them as well often with
their own coat of arms and again the odd one is still place. Some as useful
sturdy cabinets got reused so may not be in their original location.

Not a tramway box but Southern Electric moved this former Southampton
Corporation cabinet a long way from home when they moved it to Shaftesbury.
<https://goo.gl/maps/vB6WS6WfPfTKgvB26>. ( You’ll need to look around)

GH

On 10 Feb 2022 13:57:37 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10 Feb 2022 01:03:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>
>>>>> I thought London Underground hosted a lot of cables.
>>>>
>>>> Mainly their own traction power. COLT, on the other hand, used old
>>>> hydraulic pipes for communications cables, but soon spread further
>>>> afield.
>>>
>>> Change the title from London Underground to London Transport, although it
>>> may no longer have been called that by the era we are referring to and you
>>> bring in quite a few ducts that once carried traction power from their
>>> power stations like Lots Road to substations and then to the pavement side
>>> section boxes that supplied a section of Tram or Trolleybus overhead ( and
>>> I think tram conduit as well).
>>> ISTR that a lot of these lay unused till the expansion of communication
>>> networks in recent times
>>> made them asset that could not be ignored.
>>>
>>> 60 years after the Trolleys in London were withdrawn the odd feeder box
>>> survives into recent times.
>>> This forlorn one was still in place when google went by, it once served a
>>> Trolley bus turning point
>>> and stood untouched while the area around changed.
>>>
>>> < https://goo.gl/maps/f2NHgHGDQ5pHYJYf6>
>>>
>>> A larger one in better condition is on a street corner in Kennington
>>>
>>> <https://goo.gl/maps/WsBc8JJCypNVvW8F7 >
>>>
>>> Some as well as switches for the traction current did have a phone inside
>>> a compartment mounted on top which was connected to phone cables that were
>>> part of LTs internal network.
>>>
>> Forgive my shameful ignorance but I don't know what I am looking for
>> here.
>>
>
>Something like this .
>
><https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/infrastructure/item/1995-248>
>
>or this
><https://www.flickr.com/photos/23875695@N06/8479856876/>
>
>
>At the moment google maps, seems to be having one of its issues with
>linking the main picture
>via NewsTap and only posts the smaller view, so you might have to expand
>that and look around a bit.
>
>Most towns that had tramways and Trolleybuses had them as well often with
>their own coat of arms and again the odd one is still place. Some as useful
>sturdy cabinets got reused so may not be in their original location.
>
>Not a tramway box but Southern Electric moved this former Southampton
>Corporation cabinet a long way from home when they moved it to Shaftesbury.
>
><https://goo.gl/maps/vB6WS6WfPfTKgvB26>. ( You’ll need to look around)
>
Or use https://goo.gl/maps/CKjXHUb1LZEVQYss8 ?

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2022 13:57:37 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 10 Feb 2022 01:03:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>>>> I thought London Underground hosted a lot of cables.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mainly their own traction power. COLT, on the other hand, used old
>>>>> hydraulic pipes for communications cables, but soon spread further
>>>>> afield.
>>>>
>>>> Change the title from London Underground to London Transport, although it
>>>> may no longer have been called that by the era we are referring to and you
>>>> bring in quite a few ducts that once carried traction power from their
>>>> power stations like Lots Road to substations and then to the pavement side
>>>> section boxes that supplied a section of Tram or Trolleybus overhead ( and
>>>> I think tram conduit as well).
>>>> ISTR that a lot of these lay unused till the expansion of communication
>>>> networks in recent times
>>>> made them asset that could not be ignored.
>>>>
>>>> 60 years after the Trolleys in London were withdrawn the odd feeder box
>>>> survives into recent times.
>>>> This forlorn one was still in place when google went by, it once served a
>>>> Trolley bus turning point
>>>> and stood untouched while the area around changed.
>>>>
>>>> < https://goo.gl/maps/f2NHgHGDQ5pHYJYf6>
>>>>
>>>> A larger one in better condition is on a street corner in Kennington
>>>>
>>>> <https://goo.gl/maps/WsBc8JJCypNVvW8F7 >
>>>>
>>>> Some as well as switches for the traction current did have a phone inside
>>>> a compartment mounted on top which was connected to phone cables that were
>>>> part of LTs internal network.
>>>>
>>> Forgive my shameful ignorance but I don't know what I am looking for
>>> here.
>>>
>>
>> Something like this .
>>
>> <https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/infrastructure/item/1995-248>
>>
>> or this
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/23875695@N06/8479856876/>
>>
>>
>> At the moment google maps, seems to be having one of its issues with
>> linking the main picture
>> via NewsTap and only posts the smaller view, so you might have to expand
>> that and look around a bit.
>>
>> Most towns that had tramways and Trolleybuses had them as well often with
>> their own coat of arms and again the odd one is still place. Some as useful
>> sturdy cabinets got reused so may not be in their original location.
>>
>> Not a tramway box but Southern Electric moved this former Southampton
>> Corporation cabinet a long way from home when they moved it to Shaftesbury.
>>
>> <https://goo.gl/maps/vB6WS6WfPfTKgvB26>. ( You’ll need to look around)
>>
> Or use https://goo.gl/maps/CKjXHUb1LZEVQYss8 ?
>

Like I said, on an I pad google maps seem to playing up lately and pasting
from the main image isn’t working. Its been like that before and then been
cured but it does make posting accurate views awkward while the situation
lasts.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On 10 Feb 2022 13:57:37 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 10 Feb 2022 01:03:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> I thought London Underground hosted a lot of cables.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mainly their own traction power. COLT, on the other hand, used old
>>>>>> hydraulic pipes for communications cables, but soon spread further
>>>>>> afield.
>>>>>
>>>>> Change the title from London Underground to London Transport, although it
>>>>> may no longer have been called that by the era we are referring to and you
>>>>> bring in quite a few ducts that once carried traction power from their
>>>>> power stations like Lots Road to substations and then to the pavement side
>>>>> section boxes that supplied a section of Tram or Trolleybus overhead ( and
>>>>> I think tram conduit as well).
>>>>> ISTR that a lot of these lay unused till the expansion of communication
>>>>> networks in recent times
>>>>> made them asset that could not be ignored.
>>>>>
>>>>> 60 years after the Trolleys in London were withdrawn the odd feeder box
>>>>> survives into recent times.
>>>>> This forlorn one was still in place when google went by, it once served a
>>>>> Trolley bus turning point
>>>>> and stood untouched while the area around changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> < https://goo.gl/maps/f2NHgHGDQ5pHYJYf6>
>>>>>
>>>>> A larger one in better condition is on a street corner in Kennington
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://goo.gl/maps/WsBc8JJCypNVvW8F7 >
>>>>>
>>>>> Some as well as switches for the traction current did have a phone inside
>>>>> a compartment mounted on top which was connected to phone cables that were
>>>>> part of LTs internal network.
>>>>>
>>>> Forgive my shameful ignorance but I don't know what I am looking for
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Something like this .
>>>
>>> <https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/infrastructure/item/1995-248>
>>>
>>> or this
>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/23875695@N06/8479856876/>
>>>
>>>
>>> At the moment google maps, seems to be having one of its issues with
>>> linking the main picture
>>> via NewsTap and only posts the smaller view, so you might have to expand
>>> that and look around a bit.
>>>
>>> Most towns that had tramways and Trolleybuses had them as well often with
>>> their own coat of arms and again the odd one is still place. Some as useful
>>> sturdy cabinets got reused so may not be in their original location.
>>>
>>> Not a tramway box but Southern Electric moved this former Southampton
>>> Corporation cabinet a long way from home when they moved it to Shaftesbury.
>>>
>>> <https://goo.gl/maps/vB6WS6WfPfTKgvB26>. ( You’ll need to look around)
>>>
>> Or use https://goo.gl/maps/CKjXHUb1LZEVQYss8 ?
>>
>
> Like I said, on an I pad google maps seem to playing up lately and pasting
> from the main image isn’t working. Its been like that before and then been
> cured but it does make posting accurate views awkward while the situation
> lasts.

Yes, I’ve been finding the same.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:46:02 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On 10 Feb 2022 13:57:37 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 10 Feb 2022 01:03:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought London Underground hosted a lot of cables.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mainly their own traction power. COLT, on the other hand, used old
>>>>>>> hydraulic pipes for communications cables, but soon spread further
>>>>>>> afield.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Change the title from London Underground to London Transport, although it
>>>>>> may no longer have been called that by the era we are referring to and you
>>>>>> bring in quite a few ducts that once carried traction power from their
>>>>>> power stations like Lots Road to substations and then to the pavement side
>>>>>> section boxes that supplied a section of Tram or Trolleybus overhead ( and
>>>>>> I think tram conduit as well).
>>>>>> ISTR that a lot of these lay unused till the expansion of communication
>>>>>> networks in recent times
>>>>>> made them asset that could not be ignored.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 60 years after the Trolleys in London were withdrawn the odd feeder box
>>>>>> survives into recent times.
>>>>>> This forlorn one was still in place when google went by, it once served a
>>>>>> Trolley bus turning point
>>>>>> and stood untouched while the area around changed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> < https://goo.gl/maps/f2NHgHGDQ5pHYJYf6>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A larger one in better condition is on a street corner in Kennington
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://goo.gl/maps/WsBc8JJCypNVvW8F7 >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some as well as switches for the traction current did have a phone inside
>>>>>> a compartment mounted on top which was connected to phone cables that were
>>>>>> part of LTs internal network.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Forgive my shameful ignorance but I don't know what I am looking for
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Something like this .
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/infrastructure/item/1995-248>
>>>>
>>>> or this
>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/23875695@N06/8479856876/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At the moment google maps, seems to be having one of its issues with
>>>> linking the main picture
>>>> via NewsTap and only posts the smaller view, so you might have to expand
>>>> that and look around a bit.
>>>>
>>>> Most towns that had tramways and Trolleybuses had them as well often with
>>>> their own coat of arms and again the odd one is still place. Some as useful
>>>> sturdy cabinets got reused so may not be in their original location.
>>>>
>>>> Not a tramway box but Southern Electric moved this former Southampton
>>>> Corporation cabinet a long way from home when they moved it to Shaftesbury.
>>>>
>>>> <https://goo.gl/maps/vB6WS6WfPfTKgvB26>. ( You?ll need to look around)
>>>>
>>> Or use https://goo.gl/maps/CKjXHUb1LZEVQYss8 ?
>>>
>>
>> Like I said, on an I pad google maps seem to playing up lately and pasting
>> from the main image isn’t working. Its been like that before and then been
>> cured but it does make posting accurate views awkward while the situation
>> lasts.
>
>Yes, I’ve been finding the same.
>
It doesn't just affect Google Maps. There is a fair amount of software
which is not configured to work properly with pads/phones despite it
being fairly obvious to those causing its use that those will be the
majority of devices used.
(see also - posting attachments in one of Micros**t's proprietary
formats)

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:46:02 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On 10 Feb 2022 13:57:37 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10 Feb 2022 01:03:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought London Underground hosted a lot of cables.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mainly their own traction power. COLT, on the other hand, used old
>>>>>>>> hydraulic pipes for communications cables, but soon spread further
>>>>>>>> afield.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Change the title from London Underground to London Transport, although it
>>>>>>> may no longer have been called that by the era we are referring to and you
>>>>>>> bring in quite a few ducts that once carried traction power from their
>>>>>>> power stations like Lots Road to substations and then to the pavement side
>>>>>>> section boxes that supplied a section of Tram or Trolleybus overhead ( and
>>>>>>> I think tram conduit as well).
>>>>>>> ISTR that a lot of these lay unused till the expansion of communication
>>>>>>> networks in recent times
>>>>>>> made them asset that could not be ignored.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 60 years after the Trolleys in London were withdrawn the odd feeder box
>>>>>>> survives into recent times.
>>>>>>> This forlorn one was still in place when google went by, it once served a
>>>>>>> Trolley bus turning point
>>>>>>> and stood untouched while the area around changed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> < https://goo.gl/maps/f2NHgHGDQ5pHYJYf6>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A larger one in better condition is on a street corner in Kennington
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://goo.gl/maps/WsBc8JJCypNVvW8F7 >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some as well as switches for the traction current did have a phone inside
>>>>>>> a compartment mounted on top which was connected to phone cables that were
>>>>>>> part of LTs internal network.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forgive my shameful ignorance but I don't know what I am looking for
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Something like this .
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/infrastructure/item/1995-248>
>>>>>
>>>>> or this
>>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/23875695@N06/8479856876/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At the moment google maps, seems to be having one of its issues with
>>>>> linking the main picture
>>>>> via NewsTap and only posts the smaller view, so you might have to expand
>>>>> that and look around a bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most towns that had tramways and Trolleybuses had them as well often with
>>>>> their own coat of arms and again the odd one is still place. Some as useful
>>>>> sturdy cabinets got reused so may not be in their original location.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not a tramway box but Southern Electric moved this former Southampton
>>>>> Corporation cabinet a long way from home when they moved it to Shaftesbury.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://goo.gl/maps/vB6WS6WfPfTKgvB26>. ( You?ll need to look around)
>>>>>
>>>> Or use https://goo.gl/maps/CKjXHUb1LZEVQYss8 ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Like I said, on an I pad google maps seem to playing up lately and pasting
>>> from the main image isn’t working. Its been like that before and then been
>>> cured but it does make posting accurate views awkward while the situation
>>> lasts.
>>
>> Yes, I’ve been finding the same.
>>
> It doesn't just affect Google Maps. There is a fair amount of software
> which is not configured to work properly with pads/phones despite it
> being fairly obvious to those causing its use that those will be the
> majority of devices used.
> (see also - posting attachments in one of Micros**t's proprietary
> formats)

While true, I don’t think that’s the issue at the moment. It used to be
possible to share a URL for a street view image, but that doesn’t actually
work at the moment. You can share a position on the map but not a view
from there.

Sam

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