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aus+uk / uk.railway / Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

SubjectAuthor
* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsClive Page
+- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
+* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRolf Mantel
|`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsNY
| `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsmartin.coffee
|  `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsAnna Noyd-Dryver
|   `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsmartin.coffee
|    `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsAnna Noyd-Dryver
|     `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsmartin.coffee
+* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|+* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
||+* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|||`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
||| `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|||  +* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsmartin.coffee
|||  |`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|||  | `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsNY
|||  |  `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|||  |   `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
|||  |    `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|||  |     `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
|||  |      `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|||  |       `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
|||  |        `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|||  |         `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
|||  |          `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|||  `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
||`- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
|`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsClive Page
| +- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRecliner
| `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|  `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
|   `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|    +* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsMuttley
|    |`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|    | `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsMB
|    `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
|     `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsTweed
|      +* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|      |`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsMarland
|      | `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsAnna Noyd-Dryver
|      +* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
|      |`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsTweed
|      | +- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsSam Wilson
|      | `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalshounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
|      |  `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
|      |   `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsMarland
|      |    +* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsGraeme Wall
|      |    |`- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsMarland
|      |    `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalshounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
|      +* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalshounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
|      |`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsCharles Ellson
|      | +- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsTweed
|      | +* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsAnna Noyd-Dryver
|      | |`- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalshounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
|      | `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalshounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
|      +- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsmartin.coffee
|      +* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsMB
|      |`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalshounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
|      | `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsMarland
|      |  `* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
|      |   `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsMB
|      `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalshounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRobert
 +* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsNY
 |`* Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry
 | `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsSam Wilson
 `- Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signalsRoland Perry

Pages:123
Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

<j6kg22Feq8U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: use...@page2.eu (Clive Page)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 12:51:14 +0000
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 by: Clive Page - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 12:51 UTC

I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all traffic went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?

But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found a way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about its effect on mobile phone signals. Now there may be a solution:

https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html

--
Clive Page

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

<7c1ZkuBbURBiFAd9@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 13:37:31 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 13:37 UTC

In message <j6kg22Feq8U1@mid.individual.net>, at 12:51:14 on Thu, 10 Feb
2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone signal
>in many railway carriages was that the designers had deliberately set
>up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why the railway companies
>would want to do that - to ensure all traffic went via their own Wifi
>service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>
>But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found a
>way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about its
>effect on mobile phone signals.

Huh? I though we knew this from whenever Voyagers (and derivatives) were
first deployed.

>Now there may be a solution:
>
>https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html

One solution proposed by the Bearded One was picocells inside trains,
but I have no evidence this was ever rolled out. To even one network,
let alone all.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

<su351c$kjv$1@dont-email.me>

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From: new...@hartig-mantel.de (Rolf Mantel)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 14:47:27 +0100
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 by: Rolf Mantel - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 13:47 UTC

Am 10.02.2022 um 13:51 schrieb Clive Page:
> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone signal
> in many railway carriages was that the designers had deliberately set up
> a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why the railway companies
> would want to do that - to ensure all traffic went via their own Wifi
> service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>
> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found a
> way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about its effect
> on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>
> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html

Let's put it that way: the design how to reduce heat loss by metal
coating the windows was typically taken at a point in time before mobile
phone signals were relevant.

New EMU models designed from ca 2015 onwards typically had the KPI to
not block mobile phone signals, so the main challenge is how to "repair"
or retrofit good mobile signals in the existing trains.

Rolf

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:20:22 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:20 UTC

On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone signal
> in many railway carriages was that the designers had deliberately set up
> a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why the railway companies
> would want to do that - to ensure all traffic went via their own Wifi
> service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>
> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found a
> way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about its effect
> on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>
> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>
>

I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
incompetence around.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:47:30 -0000
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 by: NY - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:47 UTC

"Rolf Mantel" <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote in message
news:su351c$kjv$1@dont-email.me...
> Let's put it that way: the design how to reduce heat loss by metal coating
> the windows was typically taken at a point in time before mobile phone
> signals were relevant.
>
> New EMU models designed from ca 2015 onwards typically had the KPI to not
> block mobile phone signals, so the main challenge is how to "repair" or
> retrofit good mobile signals in the existing trains.

<facetious>
Replace all the glass in the windows with those that have the same
heat-reflecting but non-mobile-blocking coating as the post-2015 trains?
</facetious>

The problem with picocells or other repeaters is that is gives the train
operating companies the ability to intercept the data and maybe to overlay
their own adverts on web sites. On the other hand, a picocell could have an
aerial outside the train which provides better communication to the mobile
phone masts than directly between a phone and a land-based mast (assuming no
signal-attenuating windows).

It's not just mobile phone/data signals that are attenuated by
heat-reflecting glass. Try using GPS inside a modern train...

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

<5NfJAIMyPTBiFAd7@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:49:06 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:49 UTC

In message <su3afm$ojc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:22 on Thu, 10 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all traffic
>>went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found
>>a way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about its
>>effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>
>>https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>
>I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>incompetence around.

In what sense? When I was using the MML, from the very start of the new
fleet, I was already using mobile data extensively and my choice of
train (putting aside all the other different characteristics) was:

Need 240v, but no mobile signal : Meridian
Need mobile signal but no 240v: HST
--
Roland Perry

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 16:03:50 +0000
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 16:03 UTC

On 10/02/2022 15:47, NY wrote:
> "Rolf Mantel" <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote in message
> news:su351c$kjv$1@dont-email.me...
>> Let's put it that way: the design how to reduce heat loss by metal
>> coating the windows was typically taken at a point in time before
>> mobile phone signals were relevant.
>>
>> New EMU models designed from ca 2015 onwards typically had the KPI to
>> not block mobile phone signals, so the main challenge is how to
>> "repair" or retrofit good mobile signals in the existing trains.
>
> <facetious>
> Replace all the glass in the windows with those that have the same
> heat-reflecting but non-mobile-blocking coating as the post-2015 trains?
> </facetious>
>
> The problem with picocells or other repeaters is that is gives the train
> operating companies the ability to intercept the data and maybe to
> overlay their own adverts on web sites. On the other hand, a picocell
> could have an aerial outside the train which provides better
> communication to the mobile phone masts than directly between a phone
> and a land-based mast (assuming no signal-attenuating windows).
>
> It's not just mobile phone/data signals that are attenuated by
> heat-reflecting glass. Try using GPS inside a modern train...

I think the voyagers do have some sort of nano cell fitted as it seems
possible to make mobile voice calls. However data is still blocked as
is GPS as previously stated.

XC wifi seems to be free now but it was annoying in the Virgin days when
it was not.

If anyone travels on a gWr IET could they confirm that Realtime Trains
is blocked on their wifi?

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 16:33:08 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 16:33 UTC

On 10/02/2022 15:49, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <su3afm$ojc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:22 on Thu, 10 Feb
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>> signal  in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>> deliberately set up  a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>> the railway companies  would want to do that - to ensure all traffic
>>> went via their own Wifi  service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>  But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found
>>> a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about its
>>> effect  on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>
>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>
>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>> incompetence around.
>
> In what sense? When I was using the MML, from the very start of the new
> fleet, I was already using mobile data extensively and my choice of
> train (putting aside all the other different characteristics) was:
>
> Need 240v, but no mobile signal : Meridian
>   Need mobile signal but no 240v: HST

You, of course, have to be different. How many people were heavy users
of mobile data back in 2000?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 16:48:41 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 16:48 UTC

In message <su3eo4$pqq$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:08 on Thu, 10 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 10/02/2022 15:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <su3afm$ojc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:22 on Thu, 10 Feb
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>signal  in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>deliberately set up  a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>the railway companies  would want to do that - to ensure all traffic
>>>>went via their own Wifi  service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>  But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>found a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>about its effect  on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>
>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>
>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>incompetence around.

>> In what sense? When I was using the MML, from the very start of the
>>new fleet, I was already using mobile data extensively and my choice
>>of train (putting aside all the other different characteristics) was:

>> Need 240v, but no mobile signal : Meridian
>>   Need mobile signal but no 240v: HST
>
>You, of course, have to be different. How many people were heavy users
>of mobile data back in 2000?

Meridians weren't introduced until 2004.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 17:31:52 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 17:31 UTC

In message <pvga0h9tvv5hckpms9j6mefss4eki9jvn9@4ax.com>, at 17:00:16 on
Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:49:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>>>https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>
>>>I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>incompetence around.
>>
>>In what sense? When I was using the MML, from the very start of the new
>>fleet, I was already using mobile data extensively and my choice of
>>train (putting aside all the other different characteristics) was:
>>
>>Need 240v, but no mobile signal : Meridian
>> Need mobile signal but no 240v: HST
>
>In my limited experience mobile reception on MML HSTs worked on some
>but not on others.

They were all fine, it was the Voyager-isation which came as a huge
disaster. And it's not as if the Bearded One didn't have a mobile
network, so might have expected him to know better.
--
Roland Perry

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 17:50:55 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 17:50 UTC

On 10/02/2022 16:48, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <su3eo4$pqq$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:08 on Thu, 10 Feb
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 10/02/2022 15:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <su3afm$ojc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:22 on Thu, 10 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>> signal  in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>> deliberately set up  a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>> the railway companies  would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>> traffic went via their own Wifi  service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>  But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>> found  a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>> about its  effect  on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a
>>>>> solution:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>> incompetence around.
>
>>>  In what sense? When I was using the MML, from the very start of the
>>> new  fleet, I was already using mobile data extensively and my choice
>>> of  train (putting aside all the other different characteristics) was:
>
>>>  Need 240v, but no mobile signal : Meridian
>>>    Need mobile signal but no 240v: HST
>>
>> You, of course, have to be different. How many people were heavy users
>> of mobile data back in 2000?
>
> Meridians weren't introduced until 2004.

But they used the same windows as the Voyagers which were introduced in
2000. Even in 2004, heavy use of mobile data was still an expensive hobby.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: monst...@spammedia.com (Robert)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 19:22:24 +0000
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 by: Robert - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 19:22 UTC

On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:

> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone signal
> in many railway carriages was that the designers had deliberately set up
> a Faraday cage
Some Class 168 cars were, when first delivered.

I must be the only person left who would be glad to have trains with no
mobile phone signal. Ah, the peace...

Ta,
--
Rob
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational
in order to prove that you care, or, indeed, why it should be necessary
to prove it at all." - Avon, Blake's 7

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 21:10:44 -0000
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 by: NY - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 21:10 UTC

"Robert" <monstoor@spammedia.com> wrote in message
news:j6l6vgF4njeU2@mid.individual.net...
> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>
>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone signal in
>> many railway carriages was that the designers had deliberately set up a
>> Faraday cage
> Some Class 168 cars were, when first delivered.
>
> I must be the only person left who would be glad to have trains with no
> mobile phone signal. Ah, the peace...

I would be delighted if there was no *voice* signal, to prevent inane,
over-loud conversations. But I would still want an internet connection so I
could send/receive emails and browse web sites. Maybe block voice calls
(while leaving text conversations) over Skype etc.

And I would also put an absolute ban on speakerphones: if people want to
make voice calls, they need to hold the phone to their ear so only the
caller (and not everyone around them) can hear the voice of the person at
the other end. Squawkerphones really are the spawn of the devil: if I wanted
hands free, I'd use a Bluetooth or wired earpiece.

Thinking about privacy, how about this for a staggering display of
unprofessionalism... My wife and I were on a bus on the Isle of Wight,
travelling from Newport to Cowes. Two men in smart suits got on: an older,
more senior one and and younger junior one. By their conversation, it was
evident that they were lawyers, discussing the evidence in a case that they
were taking part in. The older one, who should have known better, then got
his phone out and called his office (probably in Southampton, since they got
on the FastCat from Cowes to Southampton), and he started mentioning client
names as he was asking his secretary to rearrange some of his meetings.

As we got off, my wife leant towards to older man and said "Isn't discussing
evidence of an ongoing case in public classed as contempt of court? Isn't
mentioning client names in public classed as unprofessional?". The two men
looked utterly gobsmacked, then contrite and then very, very worried, in
rapid succession.

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 21:20:13 +0000
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 21:20 UTC

On 10/02/2022 17:50, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 16:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <su3eo4$pqq$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:08 on Thu, 10 Feb
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 10/02/2022 15:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <su3afm$ojc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:22 on Thu, 10 Feb
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>> signal  in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>> deliberately set up  a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out
>>>>>> why the railway companies  would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>>> traffic went via their own Wifi  service so as to snoop on it
>>>>>> somehow?
>>>>>>  But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>>> found  a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>>> about its  effect  on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a
>>>>>> solution:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>> incompetence around.
>>
>>>>  In what sense? When I was using the MML, from the very start of the
>>>> new  fleet, I was already using mobile data extensively and my
>>>> choice of  train (putting aside all the other different
>>>> characteristics) was:
>>
>>>>  Need 240v, but no mobile signal : Meridian
>>>>    Need mobile signal but no 240v: HST
>>>
>>> You, of course, have to be different. How many people were heavy
>>> users of mobile data back in 2000?
>>
>> Meridians weren't introduced until 2004.
>
> But they used the same windows as the Voyagers which were introduced in
> 2000. Even in 2004, heavy use of mobile data was still an expensive hobby.
>
They might be the same windows but did they contain the same glass.

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 22:06:46 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 22:06 UTC

On 10/02/2022 21:20, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 17:50, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 10/02/2022 16:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <su3eo4$pqq$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:08 on Thu, 10 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <su3afm$ojc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:22 on Thu, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>>> signal  in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>>> deliberately set up  a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out
>>>>>>> why the railway companies  would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>>>> traffic went via their own Wifi  service so as to snoop on it
>>>>>>> somehow?
>>>>>>>  But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>>>> found  a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>>>> about its  effect  on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a
>>>>>>> solution:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>>> incompetence around.
>>>
>>>>>  In what sense? When I was using the MML, from the very start of
>>>>> the new  fleet, I was already using mobile data extensively and my
>>>>> choice of  train (putting aside all the other different
>>>>> characteristics) was:
>>>
>>>>>  Need 240v, but no mobile signal : Meridian
>>>>>    Need mobile signal but no 240v: HST
>>>>
>>>> You, of course, have to be different. How many people were heavy
>>>> users of mobile data back in 2000?
>>>
>>> Meridians weren't introduced until 2004.
>>
>> But they used the same windows as the Voyagers which were introduced
>> in 2000. Even in 2004, heavy use of mobile data was still an expensive
>> hobby.
>>
> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same glass.

In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the same glass?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 22:33:52 -0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: NY - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 22:33 UTC

"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:su429m$coq$1@dont-email.me...
>> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same glass.
>
> In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the same glass?

You could have a situation which used the same frames but different glass.
Or even same frames and glass, but with or without a heat-reflective (and
mobile-blocking) coating.

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: use...@page2.eu (Clive Page)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 23:30:13 +0000
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 by: Clive Page - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 23:30 UTC

On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all traffic went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>
>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found a way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>
>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>
>>
>
> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of incompetence around.

Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s. It is interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals even though the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.

The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my experience, ones that were designed and built much more recently, mostly well after the advent of mobile phones. Take the class 700 used on the Thameslink network which were designed and built in the last decade - it's hard to believe that the designers were unaware of the existence of mobile phones. I've no evidence that mobile phone signals were deliberately blocked, but it seems likely to me that the designers simply didn't care.

--
Clive Page

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 23:52:29 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 23:52 UTC

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone signal
>>> in many railway carriages was that the designers had deliberately set
>>> up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why the railway companies
>>> would want to do that - to ensure all traffic went via their own Wifi
>>> service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>
>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found a
>>> way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about its
>>> effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>
>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of incompetence around.
>
> Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s. It is
> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to have
> windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals even though
> the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>
> The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my experience, ones
> that were designed and built much more recently, mostly well after the
> advent of mobile phones. Take the class 700 used on the Thameslink
> network which were designed and built in the last decade - it's hard to
> believe that the designers were unaware of the existence of mobile
> phones. I've no evidence that mobile phone signals were deliberately
> blocked, but it seems likely to me that the designers simply didn't care.
>

The metal film windows were introduced to reduce solar gain in
airconditioned trains, which became common in the 1990s. I'm not sure
they'd been invented before that.

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:35:43 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:35 UTC

In message <su3j9v$vb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:50:55 on Thu, 10 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 10/02/2022 16:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <su3eo4$pqq$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:08 on Thu, 10 Feb
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 10/02/2022 15:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <su3afm$ojc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:22 on Thu, 10 Feb
>>>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>>signal  in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>>deliberately set up  a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out
>>>>>>why the railway companies  would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>>>traffic went via their own Wifi  service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>>  But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>>>found  a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>>>about its  effect  on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>>incompetence around.
>>
>>>>  In what sense? When I was using the MML, from the very start of
>>>>the new  fleet, I was already using mobile data extensively and my
>>>>choice of  train (putting aside all the other different
>>>>characteristics) was:
>>
>>>>  Need 240v, but no mobile signal : Meridian
>>>>    Need mobile signal but no 240v: HST
>>>
>>> You, of course, have to be different. How many people were heavy
>>>users of mobile data back in 2000?
>> Meridians weren't introduced until 2004.
>
>But they used the same windows as the Voyagers which were introduced in
>2000.

And people complained about the windows right from the start. That was
mainly for voice calls, though. Still something many found inconvenient.

>Even in 2004, heavy use of mobile data was still an expensive hobby.

Not really, I was a "heavy user" in the sense of sending and receiving
lots of email and Usenet etc. when out and about, but it probably only
cost me about £10/month, which wasn't much for telecoms in those days.

I did cheat slightly, because I set up my email client not to download
emails with attachments, they had to wait until I got home. And that
wasn't so much to do with the cost, but the time it took. I'd rather
spend five minutes between not-spots online downloading ten small emails
than one big one.
--
Roland Perry

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:46:36 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:46 UTC

In message <j6l6vgF4njeU2@mid.individual.net>, at 19:22:24 on Thu, 10
Feb 2022, Robert <monstoor@spammedia.com> remarked:
>On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>
>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>deliberately set up a Faraday cage
>Some Class 168 cars were, when first delivered.
>
>I must be the only person left who would be glad to have trains with no
>mobile phone signal. Ah, the peace...

The problem with that is people are hectored about the advantages of
train travel versus driving, with "being able to work" high on the list.

While I don't agree with mobile phone users in *any* setting speaking as
if they are addressing a public meeting, I've found it helpful to be
able to send SMS since the day[1] Orange launched (March 1994), and
subsequently to exchange emails and wear that "Meldrew of Meldreth"[2]
hat someone re-discovered recently.

[1] Actually a little before, because I was on their pre-launch
programme.

[2] I moved away from there by 2003.
--
Roland Perry

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:50:59 +0000
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:50 UTC

In message <su3v0j$mcq$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:10:44 on Thu, 10 Feb
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:

>Thinking about privacy, how about this for a staggering display of
>unprofessionalism... My wife and I were on a bus on the Isle of Wight,
>travelling from Newport to Cowes. Two men in smart suits got on: an
>older, more senior one and and younger junior one. By their
>conversation, it was evident that they were lawyers, discussing the
>evidence in a case that they were taking part in. The older one, who
>should have known better, then got his phone out and called his office
>(probably in Southampton, since they got on the FastCat from Cowes to
>Southampton), and he started mentioning client names as he was asking
>his secretary to rearrange some of his meetings.
>
>As we got off, my wife leant towards to older man and said "Isn't
>discussing evidence of an ongoing case in public classed as contempt of
>court? Isn't mentioning client names in public classed as
>unprofessional?". The two men looked utterly gobsmacked, then contrite
>and then very, very worried, in rapid succession.

I have a similar story, travelling on the Cambridge Cruiser in perhaps
2003, and the people on the adjacent table clearly being some sort of
bankers/due-diligence auditors going to visit a prospective investment
opportunity in Cambridge.

While it was in the hi-tech (computing/telecoms even) sector, I couldn't
quite recognise the organisation from the massive amount of detail they
revealed. But if I had, I might well have got on the phone to them!
--
Roland Perry

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 08:33:42 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 08:33 UTC

On 10/02/2022 22:33, NY wrote:
> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:su429m$coq$1@dont-email.me...
>>> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same glass.
>>
>> In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the same
>> glass?
>
> You could have a situation which used the same frames but different
> glass. Or even same frames and glass, but with or without a
> heat-reflective (and mobile-blocking) coating.

Except we are talking about the RF blocking which the Voyagers also
suffer from and are up to 4 years older than Roland's Meridians. Despite
his claims to being the world leader in mobile data use, very few others
were into it that early.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 08:42:37 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 08:42 UTC

On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>> signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>> deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>> the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all traffic
>>> went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>
>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found a
>>> way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about its
>>> effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>
>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>> incompetence around.
>
> Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to have
> windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals even though
> the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.

That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the heat
loss through the windows.

>
> The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my experience, ones
> that were designed and built much more recently, mostly well after the
> advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700 used on the Thameslink
> network which were designed and built in the last decade - it's hard to
> believe that the designers were unaware of the existence of mobile
> phones.  I've no evidence that mobile phone signals were deliberately
> blocked, but it seems likely to me that the designers simply didn't care.
>
>

It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains were
the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to boast
they were on the train, allegedly.[1] The mobile data revolution didn't
get going for quite a long time. The iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.

[1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
(loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked to
dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.

[2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 10:42:11 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 10:42 UTC

In message <su5716$b9b$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:42 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 10/02/2022 22:33, NY wrote:
>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:su429m$coq$1@dont-email.me...

>>>> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same glass.
>>>
>>> In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the same
>>>glass?
>> You could have a situation which used the same frames but different
>>glass. Or even same frames and glass, but with or without a
>>heat-reflective (and mobile-blocking) coating.
>
>Except we are talking about the RF blocking which the Voyagers also
>suffer from and are up to 4 years older than Roland's Meridians.
>Despite his claims to being the world leader in mobile data use, very
>few others were into it that early.

And despite your claims that it was only data users who were
inconvenienced, it was mainly voice-callers. And by the time Voyagers
had been introduced, mobile phones were commonplace for at least a
decade.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Making installed train windows permeable to mobile-phone signals
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 10:48:03 +0000
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 10:48 UTC

In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all traffic
>>>>went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>
>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found
>>>>a way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about its
>>>>effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>
>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>
>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>incompetence around.

>> Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to have
>>windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals even
>>though the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>
>That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the heat
>loss through the windows.
>
>> The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my experience,
>>ones that were designed and built much more recently, mostly well
>>after the advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700 used on the
>>Thameslink network which were designed and built in the last decade -
>>it's hard to believe that the designers were unaware of the existence
>>of mobile phones.  I've no evidence that mobile phone signals were
>>deliberately blocked, but it seems likely to me that the designers
>>simply didn't care.
>
>It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains were
>the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to boast
>they were on the train, allegedly.[1]

This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings husband
"Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the first thing he
thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm on the train".

>The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time. The
>iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>
>[1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>(loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked to
>dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>
>[2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.

Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.
--
Roland Perry

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