keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> F Murtz <haggisz@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>> keithr0 wrote
>>>>>> Computer Nerd Kev wrote
>>>>>>> Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote
>>>>>>>> keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote
>>
>>>>>>>>> I started using PP to avoid having my credit card details spread
>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>> over the internet, but receiving money through them has proved
>>>>>>>>> quick and easy. A $7K refund from an overseas airline came through
>>>>>>>>> in a day.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Conversely, when I got a cheque from the US government, the local
>>>>>>>>> bank
>>>>>>>>> branch (now closed) couldn't handle it, so I had to drive 20
>>>>>>>>> minutes to
>>>>>>>>> the branch in town, queue to see a teller who couldn't handle it,
>>>>>>>>> wait
>>>>>>>>> for someone from the back office, and fill out a large form. Then
>>>>>>>>> told
>>>>>>>>> that it may take up to 3 weeks to clear, I don't know if they
>>>>>>>>> expect US
>>>>>>>>> government cheques to bounce, but PayPal seems a much more
>>>>>>>>> streamlined
>>>>>>>>> operation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's the spin. Why didn't the Gov transfer the amount directly
>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>> your account? Why Pay Pal?
>>>>>>>> And where does PayPal get its money, and who pays. Have they
>>>>>>>> invented the Free Lunch?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For international payments they make a mint charging you a variety
>>>>>>> of currency conversion fees, mostly the one that's hidden by them
>>>>>>> offering a lower-than-reality value for your money in whatever
>>>>>>> currency you're paying in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have a look at what banks charge for international transactions. To
>>>>>> get that cheque into my account, there was a cheque cashing charge
>>>>>> plus the usual usurious conversion rate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The rest of the fees are charged to the seller, who presumably
>>>>>>> passes them back to you one way or other, though that's unclear
>>>>>>> when items can either be ordered online or purchased for the
>>>>>>> same price with cash in-store.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just the same as credit card transactions, especially if you use
>>>>>> contactless. It's not usually visible but Aldi charge extra to cover
>>>>>> it..
>>>>>
>>>>> Aldi only charges if you tap it,not If you put in slot with pin
>>>>
>>>> That’s because the contactless system doesn’t know if it’s
>>>> a debit or credit card. They only surcharge credit cards.
>>
>>> That's not what I understand, they put a surcharge on both
>>
>> No they don’t.
>
> https://mozo.com.au/credit-cards/guides/the-tap-and-go-fee-trap-paywave-and-paypass-exposed
>
> Note the line about Aldi.
>
>
>>> because the contactless transactions go through another organisation
>>> before it gets to the bank.
>>
>> That’s wrong too. That’s not what happens with
>> contactless transactions done with a physical card.
>
> No it isn't contactless gets processed as a credit card even if it is a
> debit.

That’s not going thru another organisation, that’s not
allowing the terminal to know if it’s a debit or credit card.

> It's up to the trader whether to pass that charge on or not.

>> You are confusing that with transactions which are
>> done with ApplePay and GooglePay which are done
>> like that. And the reason for both debit and credit
>> card transactions both being surcharged is because
>> contactless system doesn’t allow the terminal to
>> determine if it’s a debit or credit card.
>>
>>>>>>> Some online stores just calculate PayPal's fee and charge you
>>>>>>> that directly as an added charge during check-out. It's a nasty
>>>>>>> surprise at the very end of the check-out process.
>>
>>>>>> Same as credit cards, nobody does anything for free.
>>
>>
>

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
> news:sobepp$h84$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>> jonz <jonz@nothere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> All in all, P/P is a great service. Sure, there is now a heap of others,
>>> but whilst it is a cheap/free service I`ll stay. :)
>>
>> Well I'll stay too, but only for lack of better/cheaper
>> alternatives (short of walking in with cash in hand, which I do
>> whenever practical).
>
> Not a great idea with some stuff like buying a car, there is always some
> risk of getting robbed and the car was never on offer, just a ruse.

PayPal is no good for buying cars, their buyer protection doesn't
cover it so you're just giving them money (in fees) for nothing:

"Buyer Protection takes care of your...
Online purchases
In case your item doesn't match its description, is defective, or
doesn't turn up at all.
Intangibles
In case an event is cancelled, your hotel's double-booked, or your
download doesn't download.
But not your...
Purchases of used or second-hand goods you pick up in person, real
estate, motorised vehicles or industrial machinery."
https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/paypal-buyer-protection

I pay in cash whenever picking something up. Either way your only
hope is the police if the person you pay runs off.

I declined to use PayPal to buy something likely classed as
industrial machinery from China once as well (ended up buying
a used machine in Aus, and paid cash at pick-up). The seller
was being pretty shifty, not wanting to go via Ebay or Alibaba
(can't remember which), but assured me it was all fine thanks
to PP buyer protection - yeah right.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

>
>>>> Don't listen to Rod; he's up to his nuts in the latest Technicolor
>>>> site. Shiny glittering colorful things entrance some people.
>>>
>>>Some have enough of a clue to notice how useful some new stuff is.
>>
>> Invention is the mother of necessity.
>
>Not always, much more often it produces
>a more convenient way to do things.
>
>> And the Snake-oilers made it so.
>
>More mindless bullshit.
>
>>> Even you noticed how useful a mobile phone can be but are
>>> actually stupid enough to leave it behind when out and about.
>
>> It's not MY fault, the Tax office has make it necessary for their site
>> logon.
>
>Most of us noticed how useful they are long before the tax office did that.
>
>You're too stupid to even work that out ? Your problem, as always.
>
>Watched a doco a few weeks away about china. Microscopically
>small little shop where locals could buy stuff like a bottle of water
>or a roll of dunny paper etc. Everyone paid with their phones.
>
>They hardly use any cash at all anymore, all pay with their phones.
>

Well, I remember long ago when the power went down in a large country
town, including the phone lines, and those with only debit/credit
cards were stuffed. Cash then was very handy.
It's curious how nobody realizes that with some cash you can have it
both ways.
And the devil take PayPal!

Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote

>>>>> Don't listen to Rod; he's up to his nuts in the latest Technicolor
>>>>> site. Shiny glittering colorful things entrance some people.
>>>>
>>>>Some have enough of a clue to notice how useful some new stuff is.
>>>
>>> Invention is the mother of necessity.
>>
>>Not always, much more often it produces
>>a more convenient way to do things.
>>
>>> And the Snake-oilers made it so.
>>
>>More mindless bullshit.
>>
>>>> Even you noticed how useful a mobile phone can be but are
>>>> actually stupid enough to leave it behind when out and about.
>>
>>> It's not MY fault, the Tax office has make it necessary for their site
>>> logon.
>>
>>Most of us noticed how useful they are long before the tax office did
>>that.
>>
>>You're too stupid to even work that out ? Your problem, as always.
>>
>>Watched a doco a few weeks away about china. Microscopically
>>small little shop where locals could buy stuff like a bottle of water
>>or a roll of dunny paper etc. Everyone paid with their phones.
>>
>>They hardly use any cash at all anymore, all pay with their phones.
>>

> Well, I remember long ago when the power went down
> in a large country town, including the phone lines, and
> those with only debit/credit cards were stuffed.

Doesn't happen in china because both the buyer and the shop
owner all use their mobile phones and those keep going fine.

> Cash then was very handy.

More bullshit, the supermarkets stop operating and the servos too.

And I have cash for the garage sales anyway even tho I can pay
anyone with a mobile phone, its not worth holding up the queue
of those paying for stuff convincing the seller that its as good as
cash. Quite often my mate needs to borrow some cash when the
seller has run out of change or when he has used all his. He used
to get more cash out of the ATM and pay be back later. Now he
just pays me using PayID his phone, instantly.

> It's curious how nobody realizes that with
> some cash you can have it both ways.

We all do.

> And the devil take PayPal!

You are free to use PayID if you prefer that.

On 30/11/2021 8:56 am, Rod Speed wrote:
> The Australian newspaper tried to flagrantly dishonestly shaft me and
> PayPal has just fucked them up the arse.
> I was researching Cleo's abduction 3 weeks ago and found
> that the Australian newspaper had a paid for article that I
> was interested in reading. Only $4 for a 4 week subscription
> so I signed up and set a reminder to cancel before it started
> charging me $40/month for the next 4 weeks.
> The buggers slugged me the $40 today a full week too early.
> Rang them and had the monkey claim that its spelt out in the fine print
> of the terms and conditions that they will charge it a week early. No
> mention of that with the signup.
> Refused to do anything about it. Its clearly a deliberate scam.
> I had chosen to pay using PayPal in case there was a problem.
>
> Rang PayPal just now and they reversed the charge immediately.
> I will be paying with paypal for everything I can do that with even with
> well known operations like that arsehole Murdoch.

Why do PayPal cover people in this situation? Won't they just be losing
heaps of money?

Max <max@val.morgan> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>> The Australian newspaper tried to flagrantly dishonestly shaft me and
>> PayPal has just fucked them up the arse.

>> I was researching Cleo's abduction 3 weeks ago and found
>> that the Australian newspaper had a paid for article that I
>> was interested in reading. Only $4 for a 4 week subscription
>> so I signed up and set a reminder to cancel before it started
>> charging me $40/month for the next 4 weeks.

>> The buggers slugged me the $40 today a full week too early.

>> Rang them and had the monkey claim that its spelt out in the fine print
>> of the terms and conditions that they will charge it a week early. No
>> mention of that with the signup.

>> Refused to do anything about it. Its clearly a deliberate scam.
>> I had chosen to pay using PayPal in case there was a problem.

>> Rang PayPal just now and they reversed the charge immediately.
>> I will be paying with paypal for everything I can do that with even with
>> well known operations like that arsehole Murdoch.

> Why do PayPal cover people in this situation?

They were originally part of Ebay and that guarantee
was what encouraged people to buy stuff on ebay
given that they knew they would get their money
back if the seller didn’t deliver or delivered something
other than what they said they would deliver, or it
wasn’t working etc.

PayPal later got hived off to do a lot more than just
be a way of paying for stuff bought on ebay.

And credit cards also offered a similar guarantee that you
couldn’t be shafted if you paid for it with a credit card.

Won't they just be losing
> heaps of money?

Nope, the seller doesn’t get the money
immediately and so when they reverse
the transaction, PayPal loses nothing.

Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:sobepp$h84$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>> jonz <jonz@nothere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> All in all, P/P is a great service. Sure, there is now a heap of
>>>> others,
>>>> but whilst it is a cheap/free service I`ll stay. :)
>>>
>>> Well I'll stay too, but only for lack of better/cheaper
>>> alternatives (short of walking in with cash in hand, which I do
>>> whenever practical).
>>
>> Not a great idea with some stuff like buying a car, there is always some
>> risk of getting robbed and the car was never on offer, just a ruse.

> PayPal is no good for buying cars, their buyer protection doesn't
> cover it so you're just giving them money (in fees) for nothing:

I wasn’t suggesting PayPal should be used for the purchase
of a car, just that there are big risks with using cash.

Cash in large amounts isn't legal in that situation anyway now.

> "Buyer Protection takes care of your...
>
> Online purchases
> In case your item doesn't match its description, is defective, or
> doesn't turn up at all.
>
> Intangibles
> In case an event is cancelled, your hotel's double-booked, or your
> download doesn't download.
>
> But not your...
> Purchases of used or second-hand goods you pick up in person, real
> estate, motorised vehicles or industrial machinery."
> https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/paypal-buyer-protection

> I pay in cash whenever picking something up.

I didn’t when buying a new car and paying for it up front.
When I convinced the dealer principal that it would cost
him nothing, I paid for it with my debit card. With StGeorge
you could raise the daily transaction limit for just 30 minutes
or whatever with a phone call so I did that and paid for it
with the card. They were surprised, but interested in the result.

> Either way your only hope is the
> police if the person you pay runs off.

That’s not correct either and there wont be any way
the cops can do anything if the crim has enough of
a clue to happen to be outside when you show up
or agrees to meet in a carpark etc.

> I declined to use PayPal to buy something likely classed as
> industrial machinery from China once as well (ended up buying
> a used machine in Aus, and paid cash at pick-up). The seller
> was being pretty shifty, not wanting to go via Ebay or Alibaba
> (can't remember which), but assured me it was all fine thanks
> to PP buyer protection - yeah right.

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> "Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:sobepp$h84$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>> jonz <jonz@nothere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All in all, P/P is a great service. Sure, there is now a heap of
>>>>> others, but whilst it is a cheap/free service I`ll stay. :)
>>>>
>>>> Well I'll stay too, but only for lack of better/cheaper
>>>> alternatives (short of walking in with cash in hand, which I do
>>>> whenever practical).
>>>
>>> Not a great idea with some stuff like buying a car, there is always some
>>> risk of getting robbed and the car was never on offer, just a ruse.
>
>> PayPal is no good for buying cars, their buyer protection doesn't
>> cover it so you're just giving them money (in fees) for nothing:
>
> I wasn't suggesting PayPal should be used for the purchase
> of a car, just that there are big risks with using cash.
>
> Cash in large amounts isn't legal in that situation anyway now.

I hadn't heard anything about that, but looking into it I see that
cash payments of more than $10,000 are now illegal:
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2019B00190

What a bloody pain in the neck! Have to switch to swapping gold
ingots I suppose...

>> I pay in cash whenever picking something up.
>
> I didn't when buying a new car and paying for it up front.
> When I convinced the dealer principal that it would cost
> him nothing, I paid for it with my debit card. With StGeorge
> you could raise the daily transaction limit for just 30 minutes
> or whatever with a phone call so I did that and paid for it
> with the card. They were surprised, but interested in the result.
>
>> Either way your only hope is the
>> police if the person you pay runs off.
>
> That's not correct either and there wont be any way
> the cops can do anything if the crim has enough of
> a clue to happen to be outside when you show up
> or agrees to meet in a carpark etc.

Well you could describe them, and keep a copy of the correspondence
arranging the transaction, but yes they'd have to be stupid to get
caught. Bank transfers aren't much more of a guarantee though, nor
PayPal. You don't know for sure that the account isn't hacked or
under a false ID. There's always a risk if you don't know who
you're dealing with.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> "Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> news:sobepp$h84$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>> jonz <jonz@nothere.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> All in all, P/P is a great service. Sure, there is now a heap of
>>>>>> others, but whilst it is a cheap/free service I`ll stay. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Well I'll stay too, but only for lack of better/cheaper
>>>>> alternatives (short of walking in with cash in hand, which I do
>>>>> whenever practical).
>>>>
>>>> Not a great idea with some stuff like buying a car, there is always
>>>> some
>>>> risk of getting robbed and the car was never on offer, just a ruse.
>>
>>> PayPal is no good for buying cars, their buyer protection doesn't
>>> cover it so you're just giving them money (in fees) for nothing:
>>
>> I wasn't suggesting PayPal should be used for the purchase
>> of a car, just that there are big risks with using cash.
>>
>> Cash in large amounts isn't legal in that situation anyway now.

> I hadn't heard anything about that, but looking into it I see
> that cash payments of more than $10,000 are now illegal:
> https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2019B00190

Yeah, tho its less clear how enforceable that is with
for example the purchase of a decent used car.

> What a bloody pain in the neck!

No big deal really with PayID.

> Have to switch to swapping gold ingots I suppose...

Not really very viable.

>>> I pay in cash whenever picking something up.
>>
>> I didn't when buying a new car and paying for it up front.
>> When I convinced the dealer principal that it would cost
>> him nothing, I paid for it with my debit card. With StGeorge
>> you could raise the daily transaction limit for just 30 minutes
>> or whatever with a phone call so I did that and paid for it
>> with the card. They were surprised, but interested in the result.
>>
>>> Either way your only hope is the
>>> police if the person you pay runs off.
>>
>> That's not correct either and there wont be any way
>> the cops can do anything if the crim has enough of
>> a clue to happen to be outside when you show up
>> or agrees to meet in a carpark etc.

> Well you could describe them,

Fat lot of good that would be the vast bulk of the time.

> and keep a copy of the correspondence
> arranging the transaction,

Any crim with a clue would arrange a meeting in a public
place or happen to be outside when you show up at house
or block of flats that has nothing to do with them at all.

> but yes they'd have to be stupid to get caught.

> Bank transfers aren't much more of a guarantee though,

Sure, but removes the risk of you just being physically
assaulted and the cash taken from you.

> nor PayPal. You don't know for sure that the account
> isn't hacked or under a false ID. There's always a risk
> if you don't know who you're dealing with.

Yeah, that’s what I meant.

On Sat, 4 Dec 2021 13:24:11 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> "Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>> news:sobepp$h84$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>>> jonz <jonz@nothere.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All in all, P/P is a great service. Sure, there is now a heap of
>>>>>>> others, but whilst it is a cheap/free service I`ll stay. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well I'll stay too, but only for lack of better/cheaper
>>>>>> alternatives (short of walking in with cash in hand, which I do
>>>>>> whenever practical).
>>>>>
>>>>> Not a great idea with some stuff like buying a car, there is always
>>>>> some
>>>>> risk of getting robbed and the car was never on offer, just a ruse.
>>>
>>>> PayPal is no good for buying cars, their buyer protection doesn't
>>>> cover it so you're just giving them money (in fees) for nothing:
>>>
>>> I wasn't suggesting PayPal should be used for the purchase
>>> of a car, just that there are big risks with using cash.
>>>
>>> Cash in large amounts isn't legal in that situation anyway now.
>
>> I hadn't heard anything about that, but looking into it I see
>> that cash payments of more than $10,000 are now illegal:
>> https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2019B00190

*********************
8 Meaning of cash payment limit

For this Act, the cash payment limit is $10,000.

9 Value of cash—foreign currency and digital currency

For the purposes of this Act, the value in
Australian currency of an amount of cash paid in foreign currency or
digital currency is to be worked out in accordance with the method
prescribed by the rules.

10 Periodic supplies

(1) If a supply is made for a period and payment for
that supply is to be made on a periodic basis, each periodic component
of the supply is, for the purposes of this Act, a separate supply.

(2) A payment is part of a series of payments for a
periodic component of a supply if it is, to any extent, a payment for
that component.

********************************

Does this mean I can split a payment to remain below the $10k limit?

For a $15000 objet d'art can I make two installment payments of $7500?

Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:sobepp$h84$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>>>> jonz <jonz@nothere.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All in all, P/P is a great service. Sure, there is now a heap of
>>>>>>>> others, but whilst it is a cheap/free service I`ll stay. :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well I'll stay too, but only for lack of better/cheaper
>>>>>>> alternatives (short of walking in with cash in hand, which I do
>>>>>>> whenever practical).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not a great idea with some stuff like buying a car, there is always
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> risk of getting robbed and the car was never on offer, just a ruse.
>>>>
>>>>> PayPal is no good for buying cars, their buyer protection doesn't
>>>>> cover it so you're just giving them money (in fees) for nothing:
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't suggesting PayPal should be used for the purchase
>>>> of a car, just that there are big risks with using cash.
>>>>
>>>> Cash in large amounts isn't legal in that situation anyway now.
>>
>>> I hadn't heard anything about that, but looking into it I see
>>> that cash payments of more than $10,000 are now illegal:
>>> https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2019B00190
>
> *********************
> 8 Meaning of cash payment limit
>
> For this Act, the cash payment limit is $10,000.
>
> 9 Value of cash-foreign currency and digital currency
>
> For the purposes of this Act, the value in
> Australian currency of an amount of cash paid in foreign currency or
> digital currency is to be worked out in accordance with the method
> prescribed by the rules.
>
> 10 Periodic supplies
>
> (1) If a supply is made for a period and payment for
> that supply is to be made on a periodic basis, each periodic component
> of the supply is, for the purposes of this Act, a separate supply.
>
> (2) A payment is part of a series of payments for a
> periodic component of a supply if it is, to any extent, a payment for
> that component.
>
> ********************************
>
> Does this mean I can split a payment to remain below the $10k limit?

Nope, dope.
> For a $15000 objet d'art can I make two installment payments of $7500?

Nope, dope.