I would think the electricity requirement at most of the stations on
these remoter lines is very small. Some are really just halts with (if
lucky a single room). From what I remember Dingwall just has a ticket
office with a few seats, there might be a bit more for staff but I doubt
there will be very much.

It could be argued that the more isolated stations should have a well
heated room of some sort because sometimes will have to wait for a
substantial time in very inclement weather with no alternative refuge.

In message <su3ll9$hl9$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:05 on Thu, 10 Feb
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>>>>>> <https://www.electricandhybridrail.com/content/news/stadler-sets-world-
>>>>>> record-with-flirt-akku-for-longest-distance-travelled-by-a-train-in-bat
>>>>>> tery-only-mode>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think this has been mentioned on this group before. Add 10-15%
>>>>>> to that and Inverness to Wick becomes possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> That record-breaking distance is 25% higher than Inverness-Wick. The
>>>>> reliable, operational range will be much less, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose the solution would be to have 2-3 top-up stations en route, such
>>>>> that even if one isn't working, trains can still make it. They could use
>>>>> the Vivarail charging system, and only need a short charging stop. Maybe at
>>>>> places like Tain, Helmsdale and Thurso?
>>>>
>>>> If we are looking for nodes on the power network, Brora is about
>>>> halfway, and I'd ignore Wick versus doing Thurso in both directions.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, it's an awful lot of faffing about for four services
>>>> (three units?) a day in each direction.
>>>
>>> But what about maintenance costs? Presumably a battery pack and electric
>>> motors require much less attention than Diesel engines.
>>
>> It's an issue of scale. All this new equipment for just three units (if
>> I've counted the diagrams correctly).
>>
>> If it was three hundred, it'd be different.
>
>Surely if successful, similar units could be rolled out for other
>non-electrified routes across the country?

But you'd need to roll out the charging stations too. The ones at Wick
are no use to a battery train on the Cromer-Sheringham line.

>>> Would there be a problem extending the range of such a train by inserting
>>> an extra vehicle
>>
>> With or without corridor connections?
>
>The Stadler FLIRT traction packs have a corridor.
>
>>> packed full of batteries?
>>
>> Careful about the weight.
>
>The Stadler FLIRT traction packs are self-contained vehicles within the
>unit, therefore already comply with axle loading etc. Adding an extra one
>would indeed increase the unit weight somewhat, but presumably not enough
>to lower the range by more than it adds.

OK; I wonder if they've tried one of those Akku with two battery packs?
--
Roland Perry

In message <su3ll9$hl9$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:05 on Thu, 10 Feb
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <su0gv9$dsh$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:41 on Wed, 9 Feb 2022,
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.electricandhybridrail.com/content/news/stadler-sets-world
>>>>> -record-with-flirt-akku-for-longest-distance-travelled-by-a-train-in-b
>>>>> attery-only-mode>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think this has been mentioned on this group before. Add 10-15%
>>>>> to that and Inverness to Wick becomes possible.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That record-breaking distance is 25% higher than Inverness-Wick. The
>>>> reliable, operational range will be much less, of course.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose the solution would be to have 2-3 top-up stations en route, such
>>>> that even if one isn't working, trains can still make it. They could use
>>>> the Vivarail charging system, and only need a short charging stop. Maybe at
>>>> places like Tain, Helmsdale and Thurso?
>>>
>>> Or to wire some (short-ish?) sections of the line, maybe on rising
>>> gradients, to provide a boost to both the batteries and to the train
>>> itself.
>>
>> How do you get the power to those sections of line? It's pretty isolated
>> landscape.
>
>Have one end of the sections be at a town with a power supply sufficient to
>either supply the power as required, or to trickle-charge batteries to
>provide the power as required.

Yes, I already nominated Brora (coastal) as likely to be suitable. But
there aren't very many suitable towns on the gradients on the moors
between there and Thurso.
--
Roland Perry

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> I would think the electricity requirement at most of the stations on
> these remoter lines is very small. Some are really just halts with (if
> lucky a single room). From what I remember Dingwall just has a ticket
> office with a few seats, there might be a bit more for staff but I doubt
> there will be very much.
>
> It could be argued that the more isolated stations should have a well
> heated room of some sort because sometimes will have to wait for a
> substantial time in very inclement weather with no alternative refuge.
>
>
>

The Far North line aside, there are other places where these trains could
easily be used. Take the Birmingham to Stansted Cross Country service via
Leicester. There’s already OHLE at both ends and hopefully at Leicester in
a few years. Not having the existing stock filling New Street with fumes
would be reason enough to consider the change over.

In message <su55of$3sj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:11:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> I would think the electricity requirement at most of the stations on
>> these remoter lines is very small. Some are really just halts with (if
>> lucky a single room). From what I remember Dingwall just has a ticket
>> office with a few seats, there might be a bit more for staff but I doubt
>> there will be very much.
>>
>> It could be argued that the more isolated stations should have a well
>> heated room of some sort because sometimes will have to wait for a
>> substantial time in very inclement weather with no alternative refuge.
>>
>
>The Far North line aside, there are other places where these trains could
>easily be used. Take the Birmingham to Stansted Cross Country service via
>Leicester.

How big are the gaps? At least Syston to just north of Peterborough (but
see later) and Peterborough to Ely. I don't recall how far the
electrification goes out of Birmingham in the Nuneaton direction.

Note also that a least one such service starts in Bristol (thence to
Birmingham and beyond)

>There’s already OHLE at both ends and hopefully at Leicester in
>a few years.

From what I see of the bi-mode FLIRTs at Ely, they don't change to
electric on the fly as soon as they get a sniff of it (at Ely North for
example) but wait until they get to the next station stop.

>Not having the existing stock filling New Street with fumes
>would be reason enough to consider the change over.

Is a 3-car train once a hour really adding much to that fume-laden
atmosphere? I find the noise of the idling diesels more objectionable.

What do bi-mode trains do when switching from electric to diesel (when
they inevitably have to). Are the engines re-started "just in time" to
take up the traction, and does that ever happen on the fly at junctions
a mile or two from a station, or always at a station stop?

Maybe Anna can tell us what IETs do.
--
Roland Perry

On 11/02/2022 06:22, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 09:29:15 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 10/02/2022 09:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 09:14:00 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <su1ob7$s93$1@dont-email.me>, at 01:04:39 on Thu, 10 Feb
>>>> 2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Basically, 1% of our trains should continue to run on diesel forever,
>>>>> as it's less polluting than installing barely used infrastructure, and
>>>>> the Far North lines are part of that 1%.
>>>>
>>>> According to the ORR, "rail"[1] comprises 0.4% of the UK's carbon
>>>> footprint, so we are fretting here about 1% of 0.4% - don't we have
>>>> anything better to do?
>>>>
>>>> For the Scottish, 76% of all passenger journeys are already electrified.
>>>>
>>>> [1] It's not entirely clear if that's just the trains, or also the
>>>> stations etc.
>>>
>>> Would station energy usage be significant compared to that of the trains?
>>> I imagine a large city station would use quite a bit of leccy but how would
>>> that compare to the energy used by a train?
>>>
>>
>> Depends how the station is heated.
>>
> The only variety at my local station for the passengers is that big
> yellow thing in the sky. The coal fire in the waiting room went some
> time in the 1960s.

Is it remotely possible to describe it as a large city station?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 2022-02-11 07:25:14 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <su3ll9$hl9$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:05 on Thu, 10 Feb
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>>> <https://www.electricandhybridrail.com/content/news/stadler-sets-world-
>>>>>>> record-with-flirt-akku-for-longest-distance-travelled-by-a-train-in-bat
>>>>>>> tery-only-mode>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think this has been mentioned on this group before. Add 10-15%
>>>>>>> to that and Inverness to Wick becomes possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That record-breaking distance is 25% higher than Inverness-Wick. The
>>>>>> reliable, operational range will be much less, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose the solution would be to have 2-3 top-up stations en route, such
>>>>>> that even if one isn't working, trains can still make it. They could use
>>>>>> the Vivarail charging system, and only need a short charging stop. Maybe at
>>>>>> places like Tain, Helmsdale and Thurso?
>>>>>
>>>>> If we are looking for nodes on the power network, Brora is about
>>>>> halfway, and I'd ignore Wick versus doing Thurso in both directions.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, it's an awful lot of faffing about for four services
>>>>> (three units?) a day in each direction.
>>>>
>>>> But what about maintenance costs? Presumably a battery pack and electric
>>>> motors require much less attention than Diesel engines.
>>>
>>> It's an issue of scale. All this new equipment for just three units (if
>>> I've counted the diagrams correctly).
>>>
>>> If it was three hundred, it'd be different.
>>
>> Surely if successful, similar units could be rolled out for other
>> non-electrified routes across the country?
>
> But you'd need to roll out the charging stations too. The ones at Wick
> are no use to a battery train on the Cromer-Sheringham line.

Units on the Cromer-Sheringham line can charge from the OHLE at Norwich.

Robin

On 2022-02-11 08:29:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <su55of$3sj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:11:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> I would think the electricity requirement at most of the stations on
>>> these remoter lines is very small. Some are really just halts with (if
>>> lucky a single room). From what I remember Dingwall just has a ticket
>>> office with a few seats, there might be a bit more for staff but I doubt
>>> there will be very much.
>>>
>>> It could be argued that the more isolated stations should have a well
>>> heated room of some sort because sometimes will have to wait for a
>>> substantial time in very inclement weather with no alternative refuge.
>>>
>>
>> The Far North line aside, there are other places where these trains could
>> easily be used. Take the Birmingham to Stansted Cross Country service via
>> Leicester.
>
> How big are the gaps? At least Syston to just north of Peterborough
> (but see later) and Peterborough to Ely. I don't recall how far the
> electrification goes out of Birmingham in the Nuneaton direction.
>
> Note also that a least one such service starts in Bristol (thence to
> Birmingham and beyond)
>
>> There’s already OHLE at both ends and hopefully at Leicester in
>> a few years.
>
> From what I see of the bi-mode FLIRTs at Ely, they don't change to
> electric on the fly as soon as they get a sniff of it (at Ely North for
> example) but wait until they get to the next station stop.

That may just be down to the nearness of Ely to the start of the wires,
that it's one less thing for the driver to deal with while navigating
the junctions and station approach, rather than any technical
limitation.

>> Not having the existing stock filling New Street with fumes
>> would be reason enough to consider the change over.
>
> Is a 3-car train once a hour really adding much to that fume-laden
> atmosphere? I find the noise of the idling diesels more objectionable.
>
> What do bi-mode trains do when switching from electric to diesel (when
> they inevitably have to). Are the engines re-started "just in time" to
> take up the traction, and does that ever happen on the fly at junctions
> a mile or two from a station, or always at a station stop?
>
> Maybe Anna can tell us what IETs do.

I've been on an IET that left Reading on electric and ran non-stop to
Oxford, so they certainly can switch to diesel on the fly. I think
there are certain restrictions on raising the pantograph at speed in
certain locations, which would restrict the ability to take up the
electric power on the fly. Eurostars, in the era of Fawkham Junction
to Singlewell Junction routing switched from 3rd rail to OHL on the
fly, so it is certainly possible.

Robin

In message <su5861$hkc$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:21 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-02-11 07:25:14 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <su3ll9$hl9$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:05 on Thu, 10 Feb
>>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><https://www.electricandhybridrail.com/content/news/stadler-sets-world-
>>>>>>>> record-with-flirt-akku-for-longest-distance-travelled-by-a-train-in-bat
>>>>>>>> tery-only-mode>
>>>>>>>> I don't think this has been mentioned on this group before.
>>>>>>>>Add 10-15%
>>>>>>>> to that and Inverness to Wick becomes possible.
>>>>>>> That record-breaking distance is 25% higher than
>>>>>>>Inverness-Wick. The
>>>>>>> reliable, operational range will be much less, of course.
>>>>>>> I suppose the solution would be to have 2-3 top-up stations en
>>>>>>>route, such
>>>>>>> that even if one isn't working, trains can still make it. They could use
>>>>>>> the Vivarail charging system, and only need a short charging
>>>>>>>stop. Maybe at
>>>>>>> places like Tain, Helmsdale and Thurso?
>>>>>> If we are looking for nodes on the power network, Brora is about
>>>>>> halfway, and I'd ignore Wick versus doing Thurso in both directions.
>>>>>> On the other hand, it's an awful lot of faffing about for four
>>>>>>services
>>>>>> (three units?) a day in each direction.
>>>>> But what about maintenance costs? Presumably a battery pack and
>>>>>electric
>>>>> motors require much less attention than Diesel engines.

>>>> It's an issue of scale. All this new equipment for just three
>>>>units (if I've counted the diagrams correctly). If it was three
>>>>hundred, it'd be different.

>>> Surely if successful, similar units could be rolled out for other
>>> non-electrified routes across the country?

>> But you'd need to roll out the charging stations too. The ones at
>>Wick are no use to a battery train on the Cromer-Sheringham line.
>
>Units on the Cromer-Sheringham line can charge from the OHLE at Norwich.

Did I inadvertently pick a bad example? The Greater Anglia trial of
branch-line battery EMUs charging at the junction with the main line,
launched a blaze of glory, fizzled out.

Anyway, in the timetable today, the Sheringham trains only spend 4
minutes at Norwich (see also discussion of raising and dropping one's
pants on the fly). How far does the OHL reach beyond Thorpe Junction to
Wensum and beyond (I don't have a suitable data source handy).
--
Roland Perry

In message <su58mo$kmf$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:02:16 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-02-11 08:29:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <su55of$3sj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:11:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> I would think the electricity requirement at most of the stations on
>>>> these remoter lines is very small. Some are really just halts with (if
>>>> lucky a single room). From what I remember Dingwall just has a ticket
>>>> office with a few seats, there might be a bit more for staff but I doubt
>>>> there will be very much.
>>>> It could be argued that the more isolated stations should have a
>>>>well
>>>> heated room of some sort because sometimes will have to wait for a
>>>> substantial time in very inclement weather with no alternative refuge.
>>>>
>>> The Far North line aside, there are other places where these trains
>>>could
>>> easily be used. Take the Birmingham to Stansted Cross Country service via
>>> Leicester.
>> How big are the gaps? At least Syston to just north of Peterborough
>>(but see later) and Peterborough to Ely. I don't recall how far the
>>electrification goes out of Birmingham in the Nuneaton direction.
>> Note also that a least one such service starts in Bristol (thence to
>>Birmingham and beyond)
>>
>>> There’s already OHLE at both ends and hopefully at Leicester in
>>> a few years.
>> From what I see of the bi-mode FLIRTs at Ely, they don't change to
>>electric on the fly as soon as they get a sniff of it (at Ely North
>>for example) but wait until they get to the next station stop.
>
>That may just be down to the nearness of Ely to the start of the wires,
>that it's one less thing for the driver to deal with while navigating
>the junctions and station approach, rather than any technical
>limitation.

Quite possibly so. But it's not an unusual configuration for branch
lines joining electrified lines (see Thorpe/Wensum in another posting,
and the branches east and west off the MML near Leicester).

>>> Not having the existing stock filling New Street with fumes
>>> would be reason enough to consider the change over.
>> Is a 3-car train once a hour really adding much to that fume-laden
>>atmosphere? I find the noise of the idling diesels more objectionable.
>> What do bi-mode trains do when switching from electric to diesel
>>(when they inevitably have to). Are the engines re-started "just in
>>time" to take up the traction, and does that ever happen on the fly
>>at junctions a mile or two from a station, or always at a station stop?
>> Maybe Anna can tell us what IETs do.
>
>I've been on an IET that left Reading on electric and ran non-stop to
>Oxford, so they certainly can switch to diesel on the fly.

Were the diesel engines idling at Reading or did the have to be started
up "just in time" near Didcot?

>I think there are certain restrictions on raising the pantograph at
>speed in certain locations, which would restrict the ability to take up
>the electric power on the fly. Eurostars, in the era of Fawkham
>Junction to Singlewell Junction routing switched from 3rd rail to OHL
>on the fly, so it is certainly possible.
>
>Robin
>

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <su55of$3sj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:11:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> I would think the electricity requirement at most of the stations on
>>> these remoter lines is very small. Some are really just halts with (if
>>> lucky a single room). From what I remember Dingwall just has a ticket
>>> office with a few seats, there might be a bit more for staff but I doubt
>>> there will be very much.
>>>
>>> It could be argued that the more isolated stations should have a well
>>> heated room of some sort because sometimes will have to wait for a
>>> substantial time in very inclement weather with no alternative refuge.
>>>
>>
>> The Far North line aside, there are other places where these trains could
>> easily be used. Take the Birmingham to Stansted Cross Country service via
>> Leicester.
>
> How big are the gaps? At least Syston to just north of Peterborough (but
> see later) and Peterborough to Ely. I don't recall how far the
> electrification goes out of Birmingham in the Nuneaton direction.
>
> Note also that a least one such service starts in Bristol (thence to
> Birmingham and beyond)
>
>> There’s already OHLE at both ends and hopefully at Leicester in
>> a few years.
>
> From what I see of the bi-mode FLIRTs at Ely, they don't change to
> electric on the fly as soon as they get a sniff of it (at Ely North for
> example) but wait until they get to the next station stop.
>
>> Not having the existing stock filling New Street with fumes
>> would be reason enough to consider the change over.
>
> Is a 3-car train once a hour really adding much to that fume-laden
> atmosphere? I find the noise of the idling diesels more objectionable.
>
> What do bi-mode trains do when switching from electric to diesel (when
> they inevitably have to). Are the engines re-started "just in time" to
> take up the traction, and does that ever happen on the fly at junctions
> a mile or two from a station, or always at a station stop?
>
> Maybe Anna can tell us what IETs do.

The service as far as Leicester is every half hour.

IETs do, as far as I am aware, switch over on the fly. Regardless of
switching over on the fly, there’s probably enough lay over period at
Birmingham, Leicester, (Peterborough) and Stansted to keep the batteries
topped up from the OHLE. No need to pay for any extra charging
infrastructure.

Why wouldn’t you switch over to battery/OHLE stock for the route once the
existing 170s are life expired? There would be less maintenance for a
start.

On 2022-02-11 09:21:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <su58mo$kmf$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:02:16 on Fri, 11 Feb
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-02-11 08:29:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <su55of$3sj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:11:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> I would think the electricity requirement at most of the stations on
>>>>> these remoter lines is very small. Some are really just halts with (if
>>>>> lucky a single room). From what I remember Dingwall just has a ticket
>>>>> office with a few seats, there might be a bit more for staff but I doubt
>>>>> there will be very much.
>>>>> It could be argued that the more isolated stations should have a well
>>>>> heated room of some sort because sometimes will have to wait for a
>>>>> substantial time in very inclement weather with no alternative refuge.
>>>>>
>>>> The Far North line aside, there are other places where these trains could
>>>> easily be used. Take the Birmingham to Stansted Cross Country service via
>>>> Leicester.
>>> How big are the gaps? At least Syston to just north of Peterborough
>>> (but see later) and Peterborough to Ely. I don't recall how far the
>>> electrification goes out of Birmingham in the Nuneaton direction.
>>> Note also that a least one such service starts in Bristol (thence to
>>> Birmingham and beyond)
>>>
>>>> There’s already OHLE at both ends and hopefully at Leicester in
>>>> a few years.
>>> From what I see of the bi-mode FLIRTs at Ely, they don't change to
>>> electric on the fly as soon as they get a sniff of it (at Ely North for
>>> example) but wait until they get to the next station stop.
>>
>> That may just be down to the nearness of Ely to the start of the wires,
>> that it's one less thing for the driver to deal with while navigating
>> the junctions and station approach, rather than any technical
>> limitation.
>
> Quite possibly so. But it's not an unusual configuration for branch
> lines joining electrified lines (see Thorpe/Wensum in another posting,
> and the branches east and west off the MML near Leicester).

Sure, but without actually having bimodes running on those lines, we
won't see how they are used. Perhaps someone has seen how the units
switch modes on approach to Stowmarket, where the junction is a bit
further from the station than at Ely.

>>>> Not having the existing stock filling New Street with fumes
>>>> would be reason enough to consider the change over.
>>> Is a 3-car train once a hour really adding much to that fume-laden
>>> atmosphere? I find the noise of the idling diesels more objectionable.
>>> What do bi-mode trains do when switching from electric to diesel (when
>>> they inevitably have to). Are the engines re-started "just in time" to
>>> take up the traction, and does that ever happen on the fly at junctions
>>> a mile or two from a station, or always at a station stop?
>>> Maybe Anna can tell us what IETs do.
>>
>> I've been on an IET that left Reading on electric and ran non-stop to
>> Oxford, so they certainly can switch to diesel on the fly.
>
> Were the diesel engines idling at Reading or did the have to be started
> up "just in time" near Didcot?

Based on the perception of noise/vibration as a passenger, the latter.

Robin

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 15:01, Recliner wrote:
>> True, though some would say that we deserve a disproportionate side of
>> the blame for global warming through having
>> started the industrial revolution.
>
> Shouldn't Ug the Caveman be blamed for discovering fire?
>

I sometimes have an exaggerated rant amongst friends where I ask who we are
supposed to be Saving the Planet for and go on to say no bugger in the past
considered my desire to have a Mammoth Burger and ate them all themselves.

GH

On 11/02/2022 09:17, Roland Perry wrote:
> Anyway, in the timetable today, the Sheringham trains only spend 4
> minutes at Norwich (see also discussion of raising and dropping one's
> pants on the fly).

Always best to check your flies before dropping your pants.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-02-11 09:21:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:
> > Quite possibly so. But it's not an unusual configuration for branch
> > lines joining electrified lines (see Thorpe/Wensum in another posting,
> > and the branches east and west off the MML near Leicester).
>
> Sure, but without actually having bimodes running on those lines, we
> won't see how they are used. Perhaps someone has seen how the units
> switch modes on approach to Stowmarket, where the junction is a bit
> further from the station than at Ely.

The 769s are currently on training runs for the North Downs Line. AIUI
current practice is to change from diesel to third rail on the move going
towards Guildford at Shalford Junction, but when leaving Guildford towards
Shalford the engine is started in the platform. I think this is something
to do with driver workload: starting the diesel is an operation that needs
more monitoring, which they don't want to do while also observing the
signalling for the junction. In the reverse direction, if the third rail
'fails to take' for some reason, the train can still continue on diesel
until Guildford.

The distance between Guildford and Shalford Junction is probably similar to
the distance between Ely and Ely North.

Theo

On 11/02/2022 10:23, Theo wrote:
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-02-11 09:21:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>> Quite possibly so. But it's not an unusual configuration for branch
>>> lines joining electrified lines (see Thorpe/Wensum in another posting,
>>> and the branches east and west off the MML near Leicester).
>>
>> Sure, but without actually having bimodes running on those lines, we
>> won't see how they are used. Perhaps someone has seen how the units
>> switch modes on approach to Stowmarket, where the junction is a bit
>> further from the station than at Ely.
>
> The 769s are currently on training runs for the North Downs Line. AIUI
> current practice is to change from diesel to third rail on the move going
> towards Guildford at Shalford Junction, but when leaving Guildford towards
> Shalford the engine is started in the platform.

I've only seen them pass through Guildford non-stop so far. Usually when
I'm on the pedestrian bridge so I can't hear whether they are on
electric or diesel. Though if they started the diesel on the fly as they
pass through, I'd see the clag from the exhausts.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <su5aun$34m$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:40:39 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-02-11 09:21:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <su58mo$kmf$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:02:16 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2022-02-11 08:29:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <su55of$3sj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:11:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>> I would think the electricity requirement at most of the stations
>>>>>>on these remoter lines is very small. Some are really just halts
>>>>>>with (if lucky a single room). From what I remember Dingwall
>>>>>>just has a ticket office with a few seats, there might be a bit
>>>>>>more for staff but I doubt there will be very much. It could be
>>>>>>argued that the more isolated stations should have a well heated
>>>>>>room of some sort because sometimes will have to wait for a
>>>>>>substantial time in very inclement weather with no alternative refuge.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The Far North line aside, there are other places where these
>>>>>trains could
>>>>> easily be used. Take the Birmingham to Stansted Cross Country service via
>>>>> Leicester.
>>>> How big are the gaps? At least Syston to just north of Peterborough
>>>>(but see later) and Peterborough to Ely. I don't recall how far the
>>>>electrification goes out of Birmingham in the Nuneaton direction.
>>>> Note also that a least one such service starts in Bristol (thence
>>>>to Birmingham and beyond)
>>>>
>>>>> There’s already OHLE at both ends and hopefully at Leicester in
>>>>> a few years.

>>>> From what I see of the bi-mode FLIRTs at Ely, they don't change to
>>>>electric on the fly as soon as they get a sniff of it (at Ely North
>>>>for example) but wait until they get to the next station stop.

>>> That may just be down to the nearness of Ely to the start of the
>>>wires, that it's one less thing for the driver to deal with while
>>>navigating the junctions and station approach, rather than any
>>>technical limitation.

>> Quite possibly so. But it's not an unusual configuration for branch
>>lines joining electrified lines (see Thorpe/Wensum in another posting,
>>and the branches east and west off the MML near Leicester).
>
>Sure, but without actually having bimodes running on those lines, we
>won't see how they are used. Perhaps someone has seen how the units
>switch modes on approach to Stowmarket, where the junction is a bit
>further from the station than at Ely.

That'll be the Peterborough-Ipswich FLIRTS. Maybe worth doing a field
trip to see. But in that case it doesn't matter so much, because it's
electrified all the way to Ipswich. Earlier in the trip it's only
electrified from Ely North Junction, to Ely station, and then about a
quarter of a mile further south until the junction to Soham.

Thus pants-up/down-on-the-fly would more than double the amount of time
it was on the OHL, compared to up-when-arrived, and down-before leaving,
at the station itself.

>>>>> Not having the existing stock filling New Street with fumes
>>>>> would be reason enough to consider the change over.

>>>> Is a 3-car train once a hour really adding much to that fume-laden
>>>>atmosphere? I find the noise of the idling diesels more objectionable.
>>>> What do bi-mode trains do when switching from electric to diesel
>>>>(when they inevitably have to). Are the engines re-started "just
>>>>in time" to take up the traction, and does that ever happen on the
>>>>fly at junctions a mile or two from a station, or always at a station stop?
>>>> Maybe Anna can tell us what IETs do.

>>> I've been on an IET that left Reading on electric and ran non-stop
>>>to Oxford, so they certainly can switch to diesel on the fly.

>> Were the diesel engines idling at Reading or did the have to be
>>started up "just in time" near Didcot?
>
>Based on the perception of noise/vibration as a passenger, the latter.

You'd get less of that inside the train if they were idling, though.
From my experience of Meridians with dodgy engines, that keep starting
and then conking out while on the move. The actual starting process is
distinctive.
--
Roland Perry

In message <H7i*k5yGy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 10:23:37 on Fri,
11 Feb 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:

>The distance between Guildford and Shalford Junction is probably similar to
>the distance between Ely and Ely North.

It's a small world, I've walked much of the countryside at Shalford.

But you are right about the distances - 1.9km in Surrey, 2.1km in Cambs.

Of course a big difference is that Cambs is OHL, and I suspect raising a
panto too early or lowering it too late, is much more troublesome than
attempting to draw current from a 3rd rail shoe that's in mid air.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:14:34 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 11/02/2022 10:23, Theo wrote:
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-11 09:21:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>> Quite possibly so. But it's not an unusual configuration for branch
>>>> lines joining electrified lines (see Thorpe/Wensum in another posting,
>>>> and the branches east and west off the MML near Leicester).
>>>
>>> Sure, but without actually having bimodes running on those lines, we
>>> won't see how they are used. Perhaps someone has seen how the units
>>> switch modes on approach to Stowmarket, where the junction is a bit
>>> further from the station than at Ely.
>>
>> The 769s are currently on training runs for the North Downs Line. AIUI
>> current practice is to change from diesel to third rail on the move going
>> towards Guildford at Shalford Junction, but when leaving Guildford towards
>> Shalford the engine is started in the platform.
>
>I've only seen them pass through Guildford non-stop so far. Usually when
>I'm on the pedestrian bridge so I can't hear whether they are on
>electric or diesel. Though if they started the diesel on the fly as they
>pass through, I'd see the clag from the exhausts.

Why the hell don't they just electrify that line along with the Uckfield
line beats me.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:14:34 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/02/2022 10:23, Theo wrote:
>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-11 09:21:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>> Quite possibly so. But it's not an unusual configuration for branch
>>>>> lines joining electrified lines (see Thorpe/Wensum in another posting,
>>>>> and the branches east and west off the MML near Leicester).
>>>>
>>>> Sure, but without actually having bimodes running on those lines, we
>>>> won't see how they are used. Perhaps someone has seen how the units
>>>> switch modes on approach to Stowmarket, where the junction is a bit
>>>> further from the station than at Ely.
>>>
>>> The 769s are currently on training runs for the North Downs Line. AIUI
>>> current practice is to change from diesel to third rail on the move going
>>> towards Guildford at Shalford Junction, but when leaving Guildford towards
>>> Shalford the engine is started in the platform.
>>
>> I've only seen them pass through Guildford non-stop so far. Usually when
>> I'm on the pedestrian bridge so I can't hear whether they are on
>> electric or diesel. Though if they started the diesel on the fly as they
>> pass through, I'd see the clag from the exhausts.
>
> Why the hell don't they just electrify that line along with the Uckfield
> line beats me.

You know very well why not, and have regularly told us why you disagree
with the reason.

In message <su5aqi$2d2$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:38:26 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <su55of$3sj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:11:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> I would think the electricity requirement at most of the stations on
>>>> these remoter lines is very small. Some are really just halts with (if
>>>> lucky a single room). From what I remember Dingwall just has a ticket
>>>> office with a few seats, there might be a bit more for staff but I doubt
>>>> there will be very much.
>>>>
>>>> It could be argued that the more isolated stations should have a well
>>>> heated room of some sort because sometimes will have to wait for a
>>>> substantial time in very inclement weather with no alternative refuge.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Far North line aside, there are other places where these trains could
>>> easily be used. Take the Birmingham to Stansted Cross Country service via
>>> Leicester.
>>
>> How big are the gaps? At least Syston to just north of Peterborough (but
>> see later) and Peterborough to Ely. I don't recall how far the
>> electrification goes out of Birmingham in the Nuneaton direction.
>>
>> Note also that a least one such service starts in Bristol (thence to
>> Birmingham and beyond)
>>
>>> There’s already OHLE at both ends and hopefully at Leicester in
>>> a few years.
>>
>> From what I see of the bi-mode FLIRTs at Ely, they don't change to
>> electric on the fly as soon as they get a sniff of it (at Ely North for
>> example) but wait until they get to the next station stop.
>>
>>> Not having the existing stock filling New Street with fumes
>>> would be reason enough to consider the change over.
>>
>> Is a 3-car train once a hour really adding much to that fume-laden
>> atmosphere? I find the noise of the idling diesels more objectionable.
>>
>> What do bi-mode trains do when switching from electric to diesel (when
>> they inevitably have to). Are the engines re-started "just in time" to
>> take up the traction, and does that ever happen on the fly at junctions
>> a mile or two from a station, or always at a station stop?
>>
>> Maybe Anna can tell us what IETs do.
>
>The service as far as Leicester is every half hour.
>
>IETs do, as far as I am aware, switch over on the fly. Regardless of
>switching over on the fly, there’s probably enough lay over period at
>Birmingham, Leicester, (Peterborough)

About a minute and a half.

>and Stansted to keep the batteries topped up from the OHLE. No need to
>pay for any extra charging infrastructure.
>
>Why wouldn’t you switch over to battery/OHLE stock for the route once the
>existing 170s are life expired? There would be less maintenance for a
>start.

The impression I get is that pantographs require rather more maintenance
than they are generally given, due to their propensity to tear down the
knitting.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 17:54:20 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <su3e1v$lrd$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:21:19 on Thu, 10 Feb
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ic5a0ht50rnjpeugilhb780d23ihe16i1l@4ax.com>, at 13:41:41 on
>>> Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 13:32:45 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <su2rl9$j29$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:21 on Thu, 10 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <su1f1u$hp1$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:26:06 on Wed, 9 Feb 2022,
>>>>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 09/02/2022 13:51, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Yes, Inverness and Wick are both close to sea level, but there are
>>>>>>>>> hilly stretches in between.
>>>>>>>>> Another consideration is that these trains run through remote areas
>>>>>>>>> that can get blocked with snow or other bad weather,
>>>>>>>>> so you need to have quite a large reserve fuel supply on board. You
>>>>>>>>> can't design a system where they are routinely
>>>>>>>>> running at low charge as they get to the next charger.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They would need to always have enough capacity to return to the last
>>>>>>>> charge point if there was any blockage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That immediately doubles the range required. So for example a train
>>>>>>> which set out from Wick/Thurso gets within a mile of Inverness, and
>>>>>>> finds the line blocked, requiring a return to where it started.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, as already mentioned, there would need to be a couple of charging
>>>>>> points between Thurso and Inverness. I suspect, in really bad weather, the
>>>>>> train might be stopped at or close to a charging point.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've already mentioned the only place near a significant power supply
>>>>> node. That desno't mean it shouldn't be so equipped (apart from the 1%
>>>>> of 0.4% thing).
>>>>
>>>> The Vivarail chargers don't need significant power supplies.
>>>
>>> How does that help recover a train that's run out of power en-route?
>>
>>They provide multiple locations to return to along the route,
>
>Multiple charging stations? (Just checking).

Yes, as you know I've said several times. There would need to be at least two charging points along the route, and I've
suggested possibilities.

>
>Aren't multiple charging stations diametrically opposed to the
>proposition that there's now a mythical train that can do
>end-to-end on one charge?

There isn't.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:46:30 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:14:34 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 11/02/2022 10:23, Theo wrote:
>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-02-11 09:21:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>> Quite possibly so. But it's not an unusual configuration for branch
>>>>>> lines joining electrified lines (see Thorpe/Wensum in another posting,
>>>>>> and the branches east and west off the MML near Leicester).
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, but without actually having bimodes running on those lines, we
>>>>> won't see how they are used. Perhaps someone has seen how the units
>>>>> switch modes on approach to Stowmarket, where the junction is a bit
>>>>> further from the station than at Ely.
>>>>
>>>> The 769s are currently on training runs for the North Downs Line. AIUI
>>>> current practice is to change from diesel to third rail on the move going
>>>> towards Guildford at Shalford Junction, but when leaving Guildford towards
>>>> Shalford the engine is started in the platform.
>>>
>>> I've only seen them pass through Guildford non-stop so far. Usually when
>>> I'm on the pedestrian bridge so I can't hear whether they are on
>>> electric or diesel. Though if they started the diesel on the fly as they
>>> pass through, I'd see the clag from the exhausts.
>>
>> Why the hell don't they just electrify that line along with the Uckfield
>> line beats me.
>
>You know very well why not, and have regularly told us why you disagree
>with the reason.

The cost argument is BS and we supposed to be decarbonising yet 2 well used
commuter routes in the SE remain diesel. Laying some 3rd rail would cost
buttons in comparison to Crossrail and HS2.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 14:34:50 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:46:30 -0000 (UTC)
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:14:34 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 11/02/2022 10:23, Theo wrote:
>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-02-11 09:21:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>>> Quite possibly so. But it's not an unusual configuration for branch
>>>>>>> lines joining electrified lines (see Thorpe/Wensum in another posting,
>>>>>>> and the branches east and west off the MML near Leicester).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, but without actually having bimodes running on those lines, we
>>>>>> won't see how they are used. Perhaps someone has seen how the units
>>>>>> switch modes on approach to Stowmarket, where the junction is a bit
>>>>>> further from the station than at Ely.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 769s are currently on training runs for the North Downs Line. AIUI
>>>>> current practice is to change from diesel to third rail on the move going
>>>>> towards Guildford at Shalford Junction, but when leaving Guildford towards
>>>>> Shalford the engine is started in the platform.
>>>>
>>>> I've only seen them pass through Guildford non-stop so far. Usually when
>>>> I'm on the pedestrian bridge so I can't hear whether they are on
>>>> electric or diesel. Though if they started the diesel on the fly as they
>>>> pass through, I'd see the clag from the exhausts.
>>>
>>> Why the hell don't they just electrify that line along with the Uckfield
>>> line beats me.
>>
>>You know very well why not, and have regularly told us why you disagree
>>with the reason.
>
>The cost argument is BS and we supposed to be decarbonising yet 2 well used
>commuter routes in the SE remain diesel. Laying some 3rd rail would cost
>buttons in comparison to Crossrail and HS2.

As you well know, there's an effective ban on laying significant lengths of new third rail. That's the reason, not cost,
though apparently longer lengths of third rail cost more overall than 25kV OHLE.

On 2022-02-11 14:44:15 +0000, Recliner said:

> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 14:34:50 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:46:30 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:14:34 +0000
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/02/2022 10:23, Theo wrote:
>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-02-11 09:21:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>>>> Quite possibly so. But it's not an unusual configuration for branch
>>>>>>>> lines joining electrified lines (see Thorpe/Wensum in another posting,
>>>>>>>> and the branches east and west off the MML near Leicester).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, but without actually having bimodes running on those lines, we
>>>>>>> won't see how they are used. Perhaps someone has seen how the units
>>>>>>> switch modes on approach to Stowmarket, where the junction is a bit
>>>>>>> further from the station than at Ely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 769s are currently on training runs for the North Downs Line. AIUI
>>>>>> current practice is to change from diesel to third rail on the move going
>>>>>> towards Guildford at Shalford Junction, but when leaving Guildford towards
>>>>>> Shalford the engine is started in the platform.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've only seen them pass through Guildford non-stop so far. Usually when
>>>>> I'm on the pedestrian bridge so I can't hear whether they are on
>>>>> electric or diesel. Though if they started the diesel on the fly as they
>>>>> pass through, I'd see the clag from the exhausts.
>>>>
>>>> Why the hell don't they just electrify that line along with the Uckfield
>>>> line beats me.
>>>
>>> You know very well why not, and have regularly told us why you disagree
>>> with the reason.
>>
>> The cost argument is BS and we supposed to be decarbonising yet 2 well used
>> commuter routes in the SE remain diesel. Laying some 3rd rail would cost
>> buttons in comparison to Crossrail and HS2.
>
> As you well know, there's an effective ban on laying significant
> lengths of new third rail. That's the reason, not cost,
> though apparently longer lengths of third rail cost more overall than
> 25kV OHLE.

Dual voltage trains are a very mature technology. 3rd rail is more
expensive not due to the actual 3rd rail itself, but due to the much
more extensive power distribution infrastructure needed because of the
frequent substations the system involves. My understaning is the "ban"
was on new installations, and that extensions to existing systems,
which these would be, are permitted. Otherwise it would have been
impossible to build the Battersea extension to the Northern line, which
clearly has been built because it exists.

Robin