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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?

SubjectAuthor
* Do we use DPUs in the UK?Roland Perry
+- Do we use DPUs in the UK?Marland
+* Do we use DPUs in the UK?Bob
|+- Do we use DPUs in the UK?Graeme Wall
|`* Do we use DPUs in the UK?Marland
| `- Do we use DPUs in the UK?Certes
+- Do we use DPUs in the UK?Recliner
`- Do we use DPUs in the UK?Anna Noyd-Dryver

1
Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?

<P44U9RWufgBiFApr@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:53:34 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:53 UTC

In message <86oa0h9gv90vhrs636998pk7b51o9805g1@4ax.com>, at 19:05:05 on
Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>DPU = Distributed Power Unit - a locomotive in the middle or at the
>rear of a train controlled via radio from the lead locomotive.
>Typically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locotrol
>
>7C77 today Wembley Yard to Merehead was reported at 66564 + 15 wagons
>+ 59206 mid train + 18 wagons.
>
>I suspect it was simply an operational convenience but who knows?

Is the thrash-box in the centre of a Basil one such thing (yes, I know,
it's not easily detachable).
--
Roland Perry

Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?

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From: gemeha...@btinternet.co.uk (Marland)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?
Date: 11 Feb 2022 09:27:51 GMT
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 by: Marland - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 09:27 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <86oa0h9gv90vhrs636998pk7b51o9805g1@4ax.com>, at 19:05:05 on
> Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> DPU = Distributed Power Unit - a locomotive in the middle or at the
>> rear of a train controlled via radio from the lead locomotive.
>> Typically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locotrol
>>
>> 7C77 today Wembley Yard to Merehead was reported at 66564 + 15 wagons
>> + 59206 mid train + 18 wagons.
>>
>> I suspect it was simply an operational convenience but who knows?
>
> Is the thrash-box in the centre of a Basil one such thing (yes, I know,
> it's not easily detachable).

Thought you did not like edge cases, and it doesn’t really resemble what
the OP was on about anyway. For a start I doubt the engines are controlled
by radio control rather than hard wiring and the drivers cabs are not
other locomotives.

GH

Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?

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From: ema...@domain.com (Bob)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 10:29:49 +0100
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 by: Bob - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 09:29 UTC

On 2022-02-11 06:53:34 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <86oa0h9gv90vhrs636998pk7b51o9805g1@4ax.com>, at 19:05:05 on
> Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> DPU = Distributed Power Unit - a locomotive in the middle or at the
>> rear of a train controlled via radio from the lead locomotive.
>> Typically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locotrol
>>
>> 7C77 today Wembley Yard to Merehead was reported at 66564 + 15 wagons
>> + 59206 mid train + 18 wagons.
>>
>> I suspect it was simply an operational convenience but who knows?
>
> Is the thrash-box in the centre of a Basil one such thing (yes, I know,
> it's not easily detachable).

The way distributed power in the context of long freight trains is
controlled is via radio link rather than wiring, as the freight cars
can not transmit control signals.

Using a physical connection to control a locomotive or power car not at
the front of the train has a very long history, going back to GWR
auto-coaches, which in some fromations involved two auto-coaches
sandwiching a locomotive. More recently, the Southern system that
allowed EMUs, TC, 33s and 73 to work in conjunction with one another
meant that the position of the various vehicles in the train was not
important, and while it was conventional to use locomotives at one end
or the other, I would be very surprised if at some point a locomotive
in the middle situation never arose. More recently the TDM system of
remotely controlling locomotives/power cars to enable DBSOs and DVTs to
drive push-pull sets has been widely used. Of course the HST concept
is built on top-and-tail with remote control of the rear power car. In
terms of EMUs, for the period 1960 to 1990 driving trailers with
intermediate power cars within units was more common than not. I'm
sure southern DEMUs ended up working in multiple with the power cars
not at the ends at some point or other.

For freight in the UK, the need for distributed power, which generally
arises from limits in coupler strength, generally does not arise as
limitations imposed by signallign and sidings restricts the length of
freight trains such that a solution like this is not generally required.

Robin

Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 09:50:11 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 09:50 UTC

On 11/02/2022 09:29, Bob wrote:
> Using a physical connection to control a locomotive or power car not at
> the front of the train has a very long history, going back to GWR
> auto-coaches, which in some fromations involved two auto-coaches
> sandwiching a locomotive.

Up to four, two each side. That was as far as the mechanical linkages
would reliably work. First introduced in 1905 by Churchward.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?

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From: gemeha...@btinternet.co.uk (Marland)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?
Date: 11 Feb 2022 10:28:09 GMT
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 by: Marland - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 10:28 UTC

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-02-11 06:53:34 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <86oa0h9gv90vhrs636998pk7b51o9805g1@4ax.com>, at 19:05:05 on
>> Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
>> remarked:
>>> DPU = Distributed Power Unit - a locomotive in the middle or at the
>>> rear of a train controlled via radio from the lead locomotive.
>>> Typically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locotrol
>>>
>>> 7C77 today Wembley Yard to Merehead was reported at 66564 + 15 wagons
>>> + 59206 mid train + 18 wagons.
>>>
>>> I suspect it was simply an operational convenience but who knows?
>>
>> Is the thrash-box in the centre of a Basil one such thing (yes, I know,
>> it's not easily detachable).
>
> The way distributed power in the context of long freight trains is
> controlled is via radio link rather than wiring, as the freight cars
> can not transmit control signals.
>
> Using a physical connection to control a locomotive or power car not at
> the front of the train has a very long history, going back to GWR
> auto-coaches, which in some fromations involved two auto-coaches
> sandwiching a locomotive. More recently, the Southern system that
> allowed EMUs, TC, 33s and 73 to work in conjunction with one another
> meant that the position of the various vehicles in the train was not
> important, and while it was conventional to use locomotives at one end
> or the other, I would be very surprised if at some point a locomotive
> in the middle situation never arose.

I have travelled on such an arrangement but it was done for operational
reasons rather than power requirement. AFAIK it came about when some
Salisbury services were operated with class 33 and 4TC sets, A few
services would run combined with a Bournemouth route service combining or
dividing at Basingstoke with the Bournemouth route equipment being a couple
of 4Veps.
Going up the Salisbury train was scheduled to arrive first and the electric
would be added,
If the Salisbury train was late then it would couple on the back of the
electric so the Loco was between the 4TC and a 4Vep.
My journey was a down service out of Waterloo so must have been a return
working where that had occurred.

GH

Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:44:05 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:44 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <86oa0h9gv90vhrs636998pk7b51o9805g1@4ax.com>, at 19:05:05 on
> Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> DPU = Distributed Power Unit - a locomotive in the middle or at the
>> rear of a train controlled via radio from the lead locomotive.
>> Typically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locotrol
>>
>> 7C77 today Wembley Yard to Merehead was reported at 66564 + 15 wagons
>> + 59206 mid train + 18 wagons.
>>
>> I suspect it was simply an operational convenience but who knows?
>
> Is the thrash-box in the centre of a Basil one such thing (yes, I know,
> it's not easily detachable).

Isn't that just a trailer? So, far from being a locomotive, it doesn't even
have powered axles. And it can't run decoupled at all.

Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:50:02 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:50 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <86oa0h9gv90vhrs636998pk7b51o9805g1@4ax.com>, at 19:05:05 on
> Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> DPU = Distributed Power Unit - a locomotive in the middle or at the
>> rear of a train controlled via radio from the lead locomotive.
>> Typically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locotrol
>>
>> 7C77 today Wembley Yard to Merehead was reported at 66564 + 15 wagons
>> + 59206 mid train + 18 wagons.
>>
>> I suspect it was simply an operational convenience but who knows?
>
> Is the thrash-box in the centre of a Basil one such thing (yes, I know,
> it's not easily detachable).

If it was a locomotive then perhaps it would be; as it's part of a multiple
unit, it's operationally no different from any other MU (particularly as
the motored axles are under the cabs, not the ThrashCupboard).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Do we use DPUs in the UK?
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 16:26:11 +0000
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 by: Certes - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 16:26 UTC

On 11/02/2022 10:28, Marland wrote:
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-02-11 06:53:34 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <86oa0h9gv90vhrs636998pk7b51o9805g1@4ax.com>, at 19:05:05 on
>>> Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>>> DPU = Distributed Power Unit - a locomotive in the middle or at the
>>>> rear of a train controlled via radio from the lead locomotive.
>>>> Typically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locotrol
>>>>
>>>> 7C77 today Wembley Yard to Merehead was reported at 66564 + 15 wagons
>>>> + 59206 mid train + 18 wagons.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect it was simply an operational convenience but who knows?
>>>
>>> Is the thrash-box in the centre of a Basil one such thing (yes, I know,
>>> it's not easily detachable).
>>
>> The way distributed power in the context of long freight trains is
>> controlled is via radio link rather than wiring, as the freight cars
>> can not transmit control signals.
>>
>> Using a physical connection to control a locomotive or power car not at
>> the front of the train has a very long history, going back to GWR
>> auto-coaches, which in some fromations involved two auto-coaches
>> sandwiching a locomotive. More recently, the Southern system that
>> allowed EMUs, TC, 33s and 73 to work in conjunction with one another
>> meant that the position of the various vehicles in the train was not
>> important, and while it was conventional to use locomotives at one end
>> or the other, I would be very surprised if at some point a locomotive
>> in the middle situation never arose.
>
> I have travelled on such an arrangement but it was done for operational
> reasons rather than power requirement. AFAIK it came about when some
> Salisbury services were operated with class 33 and 4TC sets, A few
> services would run combined with a Bournemouth route service combining or
> dividing at Basingstoke with the Bournemouth route equipment being a couple
> of 4Veps.
> Going up the Salisbury train was scheduled to arrive first and the electric
> would be added,
> If the Salisbury train was late then it would couple on the back of the
> electric so the Loco was between the 4TC and a 4Vep.
> My journey was a down service out of Waterloo so must have been a return
> working where that had occurred.

I've travelled on such a service too in the late 1980s. IIRC it was
1810 Waterloo-Yeovil Junction (loco + 4) and Southampton (8 car EMU).
The two portions separated at Basingstoke. The loco was normally at the
front, but occasionally it ran as 8 EMU + loco + 4 coaches, which didn't
fit the 12-car platforms well. The EMU divided further into two four-
car trains for distant and local stations, but I forget the details
as I'd left the train before it got that far.

1
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