The government has said that it is considering inviting a “Call for Evidence” about imposing lifetime driving bans on dangerous drivers who kill, in response to a petition brought by the mother of a teenage girl who was killed in 2020 by a speeding driver.

Angela Burke, whose 14-year-old daughter Courtney Ellis was killed by speeding driver Brandon Turton in 2020, posted the petition (link is external) on the UK Parliament’s website in October.

Turton, 21, was subsequently jailed for six years and nine months after pleading guilty to causing death by dangerous driving, and banned from driving for seven years.

In her petition, Ms Bourke wrote:

I would like to change the law on ‘if you are convicted for causing death by dangerous driving then a lifetime driving ban should be imposed’, they should never be allowed to drive again.

My child was killed by a speeding driver, Who was convicted of causing death by dangerous driving. My child suffered horrific instant death injuries, the driver was driving at speeds of 73-93mph when he hit her on a 30mph road, he was sentenced to 9 years minus 25% reduction for going guilty also given a 7 year driving ban to start immediately, when he’s released he will have 4 years ban left. Driving is a luxury and it should be taken away if convicted of this crime. I've lost my child forever.

The petition passed 10,000 signatures last month, meaning the government is required to give a response.

Should it gather 100,000 signatures, the issue will be considered for a House of Commons debate by the Backbench Business Committee.

In its response to the petition, published yesterday, the Department for Transport (DfT) said that it “takes road safety seriously and keeps the motoring offences under review. That is why a Call for Evidence is being considered.”

It said that it road safety “is at the core of the Department for Transport’s agenda,” and that “ministers are aware of the tragic circumstances surrounding the death of Angela’s daughter and extend their deepest sympathy to her family and loved ones.”

The response continued: “Every road death and injury is a tragedy for the families and communities affected, and we are working hard to implement policies to help reduce the number of casualties on our roads.

“We are strengthening legislation, and how it is enforced. We have completed the biggest overhaul of the Highway Code in decades in 2022, so that vulnerable road users like pedestrians and cyclists have priority in certain situations.

“In 2022, we also tightened up the law governing hand-held mobile phone use while driving, so that the police are able to enforce this dangerous offence more easily. We have also increased the is qualification period for those who cause death by dangerous driving or careless driving when under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

“But we are aware that more needs to be done. We keep the law under review and listen to the concerns of those affected by tragic cases of death or serious injury.

“That is why the government is considering a Call for Evidence on motoring offences. While the potential scope and timings are being confirmed, it is expected it will include issues around drink and drug driving, and the offence of failure to stop and report.

“There may also be the opportunity to highlight other areas of concern. I would encourage you to respond to it when the time comes,” the DfT added.

https://road.cc/content/news/govt-considers-lifetime-bans-killer-drivers-299415

On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 8:16:11 PM UTC, Simon Mason wrote:
> The government has said that it is considering inviting a “Call for Evidence” about imposing lifetime driving bans on dangerous drivers who kill, in response to a petition brought by the mother of a teenage girl who was killed in 2020 by a speeding driver.
>
> Angela Burke, whose 14-year-old daughter Courtney Ellis was killed by speeding driver Brandon Turton in 2020, posted the petition (link is external) on the UK Parliament’s website in October.
>
> Turton, 21, was subsequently jailed for six years and nine months after pleading guilty to causing death by dangerous driving, and banned from driving for seven years.
>
> In her petition, Ms Bourke wrote:
>
> I would like to change the law on ‘if you are convicted for causing death by dangerous driving then a lifetime driving ban should be imposed’, they should never be allowed to drive again.
>
> My child was killed by a speeding driver, Who was convicted of causing death by dangerous driving. My child suffered horrific instant death injuries, the driver was driving at speeds of 73-93mph when he hit her on a 30mph road, he was sentenced to 9 years minus 25% reduction for going guilty also given a 7 year driving ban to start immediately, when he’s released he will have 4 years ban left. Driving is a luxury and it should be taken away if convicted of this crime. I've lost my child forever.
>
> The petition passed 10,000 signatures last month, meaning the government is required to give a response.
>
> Should it gather 100,000 signatures, the issue will be considered for a House of Commons debate by the Backbench Business Committee.
>
> In its response to the petition, published yesterday, the Department for Transport (DfT) said that it “takes road safety seriously and keeps the motoring offences under review. That is why a Call for Evidence is being considered.”
>
> It said that it road safety “is at the core of the Department for Transport’s agenda,” and that “ministers are aware of the tragic circumstances surrounding the death of Angela’s daughter and extend their deepest sympathy to her family and loved ones.”
>
> The response continued: “Every road death and injury is a tragedy for the families and communities affected, and we are working hard to implement policies to help reduce the number of casualties on our roads.
>
> “We are strengthening legislation, and how it is enforced. We have completed the biggest overhaul of the Highway Code in decades in 2022, so that vulnerable road users like pedestrians and cyclists have priority in certain situations.
>
> “In 2022, we also tightened up the law governing hand-held mobile phone use while driving, so that the police are able to enforce this dangerous offence more easily. We have also increased the is qualification period for those who cause death by dangerous driving or careless driving when under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
>
> “But we are aware that more needs to be done. We keep the law under review and listen to the concerns of those affected by tragic cases of death or serious injury.
>
> “That is why the government is considering a Call for Evidence on motoring offences. While the potential scope and timings are being confirmed, it is expected it will include issues around drink and drug driving, and the offence of failure to stop and report.
>
> “There may also be the opportunity to highlight other areas of concern. I would encourage you to respond to it when the time comes,” the DfT added.
>
> https://road.cc/content/news/govt-considers-lifetime-bans-killer-drivers-299415

swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 8:16:11 PM UTC, Simon Mason wrote:
>> The government has said that it is considering inviting a “Call for
>> Evidence” about imposing lifetime driving bans on dangerous drivers who
>> kill, in response to a petition brought by the mother of a teenage girl
>> who was killed in 2020 by a speeding driver.
>>
>> Angela Burke, whose 14-year-old daughter Courtney Ellis was killed by
>> speeding driver Brandon Turton in 2020, posted the petition (link is
>> external) on the UK Parliament’s website in October.
>>
>> Turton, 21, was subsequently jailed for six years and nine months after
>> pleading guilty to causing death by dangerous driving, and banned from
>> driving for seven years.
>>
>> In her petition, Ms Bourke wrote:
>>
>> I would like to change the law on ‘if you are convicted for causing
>> death by dangerous driving then a lifetime driving ban should be
>> imposed’, they should never be allowed to drive again.
>>
>> My child was killed by a speeding driver, Who was convicted of causing
>> death by dangerous driving. My child suffered horrific instant death
>> injuries, the driver was driving at speeds of 73-93mph when he hit her
>> on a 30mph road, he was sentenced to 9 years minus 25% reduction for
>> going guilty also given a 7 year driving ban to start immediately, when
>> he’s released he will have 4 years ban left. Driving is a luxury and it
>> should be taken away if convicted of this crime. I've lost my child forever.
>>
>> The petition passed 10,000 signatures last month, meaning the government
>> is required to give a response.
>>
>> Should it gather 100,000 signatures, the issue will be considered for a
>> House of Commons debate by the Backbench Business Committee.
>>
>> In its response to the petition, published yesterday, the Department for
>> Transport (DfT) said that it “takes road safety seriously and keeps the
>> motoring offences under review. That is why a Call for Evidence is being considered.”
>>
>> It said that it road safety “is at the core of the Department for
>> Transport’s agenda,” and that “ministers are aware of the tragic
>> circumstances surrounding the death of Angela’s daughter and extend
>> their deepest sympathy to her family and loved ones.”
>>
>> The response continued: “Every road death and injury is a tragedy for
>> the families and communities affected, and we are working hard to
>> implement policies to help reduce the number of casualties on our roads.
>>
>> “We are strengthening legislation, and how it is enforced. We have
>> completed the biggest overhaul of the Highway Code in decades in 2022,
>> so that vulnerable road users like pedestrians and cyclists have
>> priority in certain situations.
>>
>> “In 2022, we also tightened up the law governing hand-held mobile phone
>> use while driving, so that the police are able to enforce this dangerous
>> offence more easily. We have also increased the is qualification period
>> for those who cause death by dangerous driving or careless driving when
>> under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
>>
>> “But we are aware that more needs to be done. We keep the law under
>> review and listen to the concerns of those affected by tragic cases of
>> death or serious injury.
>>
>> “That is why the government is considering a Call for Evidence on
>> motoring offences. While the potential scope and timings are being
>> confirmed, it is expected it will include issues around drink and drug
>> driving, and the offence of failure to stop and report.
>>
>> “There may also be the opportunity to highlight other areas of concern.
>> I would encourage you to respond to it when the time comes,” the DfT added.
>>
>> https://road.cc/content/news/govt-considers-lifetime-bans-killer-drivers-299415
>

--
Spike

On 18/02/2023 08:16 pm, Simon Mason wrote:

> The government has said that it is considering inviting a “Call for Evidence” about imposing lifetime driving bans on dangerous drivers who kill...

Well, that is weird indeed.

And that is because we were assured, in this very NG, by someone called
"Simon Mason", that lifetime driving disqualifications are *already*
available to the courts.

And now, just as he was told in various replies, *he* (eventually)
admits that he was wrong.

Fancy that.

As usual - prevention (link is external) is hugely better than attempts at redress. Though we can certainly do better I think there's a limit to "police it safer".

I would like to see this as part of the comprehensive review of road law...

Lastly - before you can go to criminal court, you need to have located a defendant.

There's a chain to follow before this could have an effect. The police have to decide to do something (rather than saying "accident" or "probably brought this on themselves"). Next they have to locate evidence. Then they have to pass this to the CPS or at least ask for advice. (There is at least one case where police simply didn't to this (link is external)).

Then the CPS have to decide to run it. Then they have to select an appropriate charge. The default seems to be "we'll take the lowest category of offense if the other side will plead guilty - and probably that anyway because we don't think we'll succeed beyond that in these cases".

We haven't got to court yet...

Like all these efforts if it could be done as well as something more effective it would seem to make sense. I just wonder whether it will have much effect - for reasons others have pointed out in the comments - even when things do get this far.

So many fixes needed:

- momentary lapse defence should be banned;

- the distinction between careless and dangerous should be codified so there are practical tests a judge and jury can use, for example, a major fail on a driving test should be considered dangerous, a minor, careless. So simply exceeding the speed limit could be dangerous rather than careless in the event of an incident.

- drop the exceptional hardship excuse for avoiding a ban. It takes multiple offences to tot up. The failure to mend your ways should be taken as evidence that opportunities to reform have already been ignored.

- deliberate threats and acts of violence using a vehicle should have punishments scaled as if it were an offensive weapon such as a knife or gun.

"We are strengthening legislation, and how it is enforced" - HoHo I wish.

At least 35,000 drivers have over 12 points on their licence and have kept their licence having pleaded exceptional hardship. <Linky (link is external)>

And the judicial system can't even say "Tough, should have thought about that before driving".

This is Government window dressing ..

swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:

> So many fixes needed:

> - momentary lapse defence should be banned;

> - the distinction between careless and dangerous should be codified so
> there are practical tests a judge and jury can use, for example, a major
> fail on a driving test should be considered dangerous, a minor, careless.
> So simply exceeding the speed limit could be dangerous rather than
> careless in the event of an incident.

> - drop the exceptional hardship excuse for avoiding a ban. It takes
> multiple offences to tot up. The failure to mend your ways should be
> taken as evidence that opportunities to reform have already been ignored.

> - deliberate threats and acts of violence using a vehicle should have
> punishments scaled as if it were an offensive weapon such as a knife or gun.

Would you accept that the conditions mentioned should also apply to those
who cycle dangerously?

If not, why would that be so?

--
Spike

The following limk sums things up far better than I ever could.

https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/why-should-government-review-road-traf... (link is external)

It contains the classic :

"The need for such a review appeared to be acknowledged back in May 2014, when the then Justice Secretary Chris Grayling MP announced the Government’s intention to launch “a full review of all driving offences and penalties”, stating that he “wanted to make our roads safer”. The review didn't happen."

May 2014! And in Feb 2023 “That is why the government is considering a Call for Evidence on motoring offences."

Considering a call for evidence! Government in this country has become the art of kicking cans down the road to concentrate on vote winning slogans.

The only positive I can take from this is "...it will include....the offence of failure to stop and report." which needs a serious overhaul. Having said that they have had two chances to debate this already but have declined to act because of the problem of not stopping when a door mirror has been damaged. This is obviously an intractable problem. Utter shambles.

swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
> The following limk sums things up far better than I ever could.
>
> https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/why-should-government-review-road-traf... (link is
> external)
>
> It contains the classic :
>
> "The need for such a review appeared to be acknowledged back in May 2014,
> when the then Justice Secretary Chris Grayling MP announced the
> Government’s intention to launch “a full review of all driving offences
> and penalties”, stating that he “wanted to make our roads safer”. The
> review didn't happen."
>
> May 2014! And in Feb 2023 “That is why the government is considering a
> Call for Evidence on motoring offences."
>
> Considering a call for evidence! Government in this country has become
> the art of kicking cans down the road to concentrate on vote winning slogans.
>
> The only positive I can take from this is "...it will include....the
> offence of failure to stop and report." which needs a serious overhaul.
> Having said that they have had two chances to debate this already but
> have declined to act because of the problem of not stopping when a door
> mirror has been damaged. This is obviously an intractable problem. Utter shambles.

As long as none of this applies to cyclists, eh?

--
Spike

On 19/02/2023 05:28 am, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
> So many fixes needed:
>
> - momentary lapse defence should be banned;

Magna Carta. United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.

You fairy-cyclists would soon get your =nappies in a wet strop if anyone
suggested prosecuting you without allowing any defence to be put
forward, wouldn't you?

But hey... at least we know that you have no sense of justice or
fairness (we knew that already).
>
> - the distinction between careless and dangerous should be codified so there are practical tests a judge and jury can use, for example, a major fail on a driving test should be considered dangerous,

Why?

Please explain your "reasoning", if any.

> a minor, careless.

> So simply exceeding the speed limit could be dangerous rather than careless in the event of an incident.

AIUI, that is already the case, though the excess speed has to be
grossly excessive (like doing 3o past a school on your fairy-cycle when
the limit is 20).

> - drop the exceptional hardship excuse for avoiding a ban. It takes multiple offences to tot up. The failure to mend your ways should be taken as evidence that opportunities to reform have already been ignored.

See above.

> - deliberate threats and acts of violence using a vehicle should have punishments scaled as if it were an offensive weapon such as a knife or gun.

or a D-lock?

IanMSpencer wrote:

- drop the exceptional hardship excuse for avoiding a ban. It takes multiple offences to tot up. The failure to mend your ways should be taken as evidence that opportunities to reform have already been ignored. -

This is the place to begin if they're thinking about bans. 12 points and you're out, simple arithmetic, no excuses.

On 19/02/2023 02:21 pm, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:

> IanMSpencer wrote:

> - drop the exceptional hardship excuse for avoiding a ban. It takes multiple offences to tot up. The failure to mend your ways should be taken as evidence that opportunities to reform have already been ignored. -

> This is the place to begin if they're thinking about bans. 12 points and you're out, simple arithmetic, no excuses.

How many points for breach of the Construction & Use Regulation which
requires working windscreen wipers to be fitted to all road-going motor
vehicles other then a 1920 Bentley?

The full twelve all at once?

Anyway, what's this thread about?

Only a few weeks ago, *you* were insisting that lifetime bans are
available to the courts.

Were you lying, yet agai,. M'Lud?

Sooo many caveats. Nothing is gonna happen.
let's face it they've pushed legalisation of escooters back to 2024.
There is no chance these sorry sacks or Tory arse will do anything.