hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 02:59, Recliner wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 28/01/2022 22:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 28/01/2022 11:04, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was at Greenford yesterday, and saw absolutely no signs of any prep work
>>>>>> for battery trains. I didn't use the GWR shuttle, but it seemed to be
>>>>>> running normally, suggesting that nothing much is happening at West Ealing,
>>>>>> either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What sort of prep work would be necessary on the metal for battery
>>>>> trains, except maybe a connection to shore power? I would have thought
>>>>> that the prep work would be on the rolling stock itself and in shed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Current rail in the platform track. That's where the the current is picked
>>>> up.
>>>>
>>>
>>> To charge the batteries, you mean?
>>>
>>
>> Obviously, yes.
>>
> I don't know what kind of range the batteries on a DMU would allow.
>

BMU, perhaps.

Vivarail offer 100 miles of range for a 10 minute charge; Stadler Flirt
Akku currently being delivered to Germany offer 150km range (charging time
unspecified, but I think they charge from standard OLE on wired parts of
their route).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:18:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-01-18 22:38:36 +0000, Charles Ellson said:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 21:18:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 16:29:50 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 18/01/2022 13:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:23:38 +0100, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-18 11:56:43 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-17 23:15:37 +0000, Charles Ellson said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2022 22:09:17 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/01/2022 21:33, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/01/2022 21:12, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just seen it suggested (on a board that needs a login so I can't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide a link) that Chiltern are to stop using 68s. Anyone know any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more? Replace with other locos or withdrawl of loco hauled completely?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not heard that, but if true, it would almost certainly mean the latter. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might be one of the easier ways of cutting costs. It would also appease the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neighbours at Marylebone who complain of the noise from the idling 68s
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (same problem as TPE have had at Scarborough).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not think that idling diesel electrics made all that much noise,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in reality, particularly is the brakes are not charged.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's both noise and air pollution. Getting rid of the 68s will reduce the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, I thought that a diesel electric on idle with a vented brake pipe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not actually make that much noise -- hardly more than a DMU.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but might have less effect on the air pollution until the DMUs are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> converted to hybrids.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A ways off yet, AIUI.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/marylebone-station-toxic-train-fuels-government-london-b964118.html>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also thought that trains running on diesel were less expensive than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, yes, but Chiltern obviously won't be replacing them with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrics!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess not now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any electrification prospects anywhere on Chiltern, however?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The London end is getting increasingly surrounded by wet string so
>>>>>>>>>>>> eventual "fill in" seems a likely consequence but not just yet and not
>>>>>>>>>>>> for long distance services.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I guess there can't be much diesel operation left in the Lodon area. I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't think there's any left at Liverpool St, King's Cross is now just
>>>>>>>>>>> GC, Paddington is down to the Night Riviera and a handful of Oxford
>>>>>>>>>>> trains, and on the Southern it's just Salisbury/Exeter and the few
>>>>>>>>>>> throguh trains to Uckfield.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hourly Uckfield since shortly after the 171s we?re introduced, AIUI
>>>>>>>>>> (currently terminating at East Croydon, but booked through to London
>>>>>>>>>> Bridge).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I hadn't realised it was all day, in my mind it was just a peak hours
>>>>>>>>> service. I guess I'm living in the past on that one (or that once the
>>>>>>>>> Thumpers left it, it became boring and not worthy of attention).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only significant diesel operations
>>>>>>>>>>> left are Chiltern and the Midland mainline services. Have I missed any
>>>>>>>>>>> (aside from freight)?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Depending on your definition of "London Area"; West Ealing-Greenford,
>>>>>>>>>> Slough-Windsor, Henley and Marlow branches, Reading-Gatwick.
>>>>>>>>>> Reading-Basingstoke is presumably out of scope.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was broadly thinking "M25" or Zone 6 as my definition of London area,
>>>>>>>>> so aside from my forgetfulness about Greenford, I'd regard those as
>>>>>>>>> outside. Of course all such definitions are arbitrary to some extent.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And Greenford should soon be battery operated on a trial basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because it's an isolate?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only in electrical terms. Traction Juice (two varieties) is available
>>>>>> at both ends of the shuttle so it only needs the battery when on the
>>>>>> move. A quick and dirty bodge could be done with a dual-voltage unit
>>>>>> with an onboard battery, maybe a 313 or similar with the battery in
>>>>>> the locked-out London end as the intermediate stations only have
>>>>>> 2-carriage platforms. The main impediment (if it is) to new OHLE looks
>>>>>> like Drayton Green tunnel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It won't be a 313. Last year, the trial of the two-car battery train was
>>>>> reported to be due to start this April, but I imagine it's been delayed.
>>>>>
>>>> The last mention seems to have been in Railway World in November which
>>>> isn't inevitably a bad sign. I was thinking in terms of AC/DC trains
>>>> as that seems more logical if there turns out to be a sufficient
>>>> demand between two electrified locations not that far apart. The
>>>> trouble with most (all?) current dual-voltage units is that you can't
>>>> use less than three coaches (motor coach+something with a cab on each
>>>> side).
>>>
>>> There's nothing inherent in the technology that would prevent a 2 car
>>> dual voltage EMU (or even 1 car), for example SNCF operate the Z9500
>>> class 2 car 25 kV AC/1500 V DC units, but from the UK perspective,
>>> there aren't many 2 car units that could be easily converted for this
>>> purpose as 2 car EMUs haven't been built for AC routes since the 309/1
>>> and for DC since the 466.
>>>
>>
>> I might pop along and see if there's any evidence of prep work for the
>> D-train. It will need a charger at West Ealing, with a conductor rail. I
>> don't know if any work will be needed at Greenford.
>>
> It would also need an appropriate substation at West Ealing. Greenford
> OTOH has an existing supply.
>

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:18:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2022-01-18 22:38:36 +0000, Charles Ellson said:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 21:18:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 16:29:50 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 18/01/2022 13:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:23:38 +0100, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-18 11:56:43 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-17 23:15:37 +0000, Charles Ellson said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2022 22:09:17 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/01/2022 21:33, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/01/2022 21:12, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just seen it suggested (on a board that needs a login so I can't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide a link) that Chiltern are to stop using 68s. Anyone know any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more? Replace with other locos or withdrawl of loco hauled completely?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not heard that, but if true, it would almost certainly mean the latter. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might be one of the easier ways of cutting costs. It would also appease the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neighbours at Marylebone who complain of the noise from the idling 68s
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (same problem as TPE have had at Scarborough).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not think that idling diesel electrics made all that much noise,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in reality, particularly is the brakes are not charged.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's both noise and air pollution. Getting rid of the 68s will reduce the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, I thought that a diesel electric on idle with a vented brake pipe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not actually make that much noise -- hardly more than a DMU.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but might have less effect on the air pollution until the DMUs are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> converted to hybrids.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A ways off yet, AIUI.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/marylebone-station-toxic-train-fuels-government-london-b964118.html>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also thought that trains running on diesel were less expensive than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, yes, but Chiltern obviously won't be replacing them with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrics!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess not now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any electrification prospects anywhere on Chiltern, however?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The London end is getting increasingly surrounded by wet string so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eventual "fill in" seems a likely consequence but not just yet and not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for long distance services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess there can't be much diesel operation left in the Lodon area. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't think there's any left at Liverpool St, King's Cross is now just
>>>>>>>>>>>> GC, Paddington is down to the Night Riviera and a handful of Oxford
>>>>>>>>>>>> trains, and on the Southern it's just Salisbury/Exeter and the few
>>>>>>>>>>>> throguh trains to Uckfield.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hourly Uckfield since shortly after the 171s we?re introduced, AIUI
>>>>>>>>>>> (currently terminating at East Croydon, but booked through to London
>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I hadn't realised it was all day, in my mind it was just a peak hours
>>>>>>>>>> service. I guess I'm living in the past on that one (or that once the
>>>>>>>>>> Thumpers left it, it became boring and not worthy of attention).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The only significant diesel operations
>>>>>>>>>>>> left are Chiltern and the Midland mainline services. Have I missed any
>>>>>>>>>>>> (aside from freight)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Depending on your definition of "London Area"; West Ealing-Greenford,
>>>>>>>>>>> Slough-Windsor, Henley and Marlow branches, Reading-Gatwick.
>>>>>>>>>>> Reading-Basingstoke is presumably out of scope.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was broadly thinking "M25" or Zone 6 as my definition of London area,
>>>>>>>>>> so aside from my forgetfulness about Greenford, I'd regard those as
>>>>>>>>>> outside. Of course all such definitions are arbitrary to some extent.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And Greenford should soon be battery operated on a trial basis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because it's an isolate?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only in electrical terms. Traction Juice (two varieties) is available
>>>>>>> at both ends of the shuttle so it only needs the battery when on the
>>>>>>> move. A quick and dirty bodge could be done with a dual-voltage unit
>>>>>>> with an onboard battery, maybe a 313 or similar with the battery in
>>>>>>> the locked-out London end as the intermediate stations only have
>>>>>>> 2-carriage platforms. The main impediment (if it is) to new OHLE looks
>>>>>>> like Drayton Green tunnel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It won't be a 313. Last year, the trial of the two-car battery train was
>>>>>> reported to be due to start this April, but I imagine it's been delayed.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The last mention seems to have been in Railway World in November which
>>>>> isn't inevitably a bad sign. I was thinking in terms of AC/DC trains
>>>>> as that seems more logical if there turns out to be a sufficient
>>>>> demand between two electrified locations not that far apart. The
>>>>> trouble with most (all?) current dual-voltage units is that you can't
>>>>> use less than three coaches (motor coach+something with a cab on each
>>>>> side).
>>>>
>>>> There's nothing inherent in the technology that would prevent a 2 car
>>>> dual voltage EMU (or even 1 car), for example SNCF operate the Z9500
>>>> class 2 car 25 kV AC/1500 V DC units, but from the UK perspective,
>>>> there aren't many 2 car units that could be easily converted for this
>>>> purpose as 2 car EMUs haven't been built for AC routes since the 309/1
>>>> and for DC since the 466.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I might pop along and see if there's any evidence of prep work for the
>>> D-train. It will need a charger at West Ealing, with a conductor rail. I
>>> don't know if any work will be needed at Greenford.
>>>
>> It would also need an appropriate substation at West Ealing. Greenford
>> OTOH has an existing supply.
>>
>
> Aha, news just in, and you were right:
> <https://www.modernrailways.com/article/vivarails-battery-230-greenford-branch>