Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>

In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>
><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>

Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:

"equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for a year,
or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".

More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening surges, but
will require charging up again straight away.

Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first figure.

No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not terribly
meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would keep the lights
on, a random December Thursday evening.

The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a home-charged EV
doubles a household's average power consumption.

And let's hope that the 1651st person to switch on an electric kettle
during the ad-break in Coronation Street, doesn't blow the main fuse at
the power bank.
--
Roland Perry

On 24/02/2022 03:36, Recliner wrote:
> Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>
>

After all the puffery, most of the money is for gas-fired power
stations. The rest of it goes to China.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:05:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24 Feb
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>>
>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>
> Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:
>
> "equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for a year,
> or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".
>
> More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening surges, but
> will require charging up again straight away.
>
> Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
> consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first figure.
>
> No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not terribly
> meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would keep the lights
> on, a random December Thursday evening.
>
> The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a home-charged EV
> doubles a household's average power consumption.
>
....

If your figure of 4000 kWh/y per household is correct, and the average
annual mileage per car is 7000 miles (which I got by Googling), then the
car roughly multiplies the average electricity consumption by 1.5.

nib

In message <sv7ka6$abh$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:54 on Thu, 24 Feb
2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:05:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24 Feb
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>>>
>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>>>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>>
>> Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:
>>
>> "equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for a year,
>> or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".
>>
>> More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening surges, but
>> will require charging up again straight away.
>>
>> Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
>> consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first figure.
>>
>> No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not terribly
>> meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would keep the lights
>> on, a random December Thursday evening.
>>
>> The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a home-charged EV
>> doubles a household's average power consumption.
>>
>...
>
>If your figure of 4000 kWh/y per household is correct, and the average
>annual mileage per car is 7000 miles (which I got by Googling), then the
>car roughly multiplies the average electricity consumption by 1.5.

Let's see: typical fuel economy 4.5 miles per kWh. Average mileage 8,000

So that's 1780 kWh. I wonder where the widely quoted "doubling" is
coming from?

Maybe it's this:

Based on an average vehicle traveling 13,257km/yr (Statistisches
Bundesamt DE) at an average consumption of 25.9 kWh/100 km (ADAC)
is 3,336 kWh/yr; average household consumption: 3,207 kWh
(musterhaushalt.de)

So many different units!
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:14:52 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <sv7ka6$abh$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:54 on Thu, 24 Feb
> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:05:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>>>>
>>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-
bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>>>>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>>>
>>> Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:
>>>
>>> "equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for a
>>> year,
>>> or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".
>>>
>>> More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening surges,
>>> but will require charging up again straight away.
>>>
>>> Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
>>> consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first figure.
>>>
>>> No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not
>>> terribly meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would keep
>>> the lights on, a random December Thursday evening.
>>>
>>> The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a home-charged
>>> EV doubles a household's average power consumption.
>>>
>>...
>>
>>If your figure of 4000 kWh/y per household is correct, and the average
>>annual mileage per car is 7000 miles (which I got by Googling), then the
>>car roughly multiplies the average electricity consumption by 1.5.
>
> Let's see: typical fuel economy 4.5 miles per kWh. Average mileage 8,000
>
> So that's 1780 kWh. I wonder where the widely quoted "doubling" is
> coming from?
>
> Maybe it's this:
>
> Based on an average vehicle traveling 13,257km/yr (Statistisches
> Bundesamt DE) at an average consumption of 25.9 kWh/100 km (ADAC)
> is 3,336 kWh/yr; average household consumption: 3,207 kWh
> (musterhaushalt.de)
>
> So many different units!

My smallish car uses about 16 kWh/100km in those units. 26 kWh/km would
be huge, about 2.4 miles/kWh. And in our small house we burn around 10
kWh/d, or 3650 kWh/y.

Doing a very rough conversion at 10 kW/h per litre of diesel and diesel
thermal efficiency of 33%, then 16 kWh/100km maps to 59 mi/gal and 25.9
kWh/199km to 36 mi/gal.

nib

In message <sv7n8v$abh$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:28 on Thu, 24 Feb
2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:14:52 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In message <sv7ka6$abh$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:54 on Thu, 24 Feb
>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:05:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>>>>>
>>>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-
>bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>>>>>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>>>>
>>>> Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:
>>>>
>>>> "equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for a
>>>> year,
>>>> or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".
>>>>
>>>> More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening surges,
>>>> but will require charging up again straight away.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
>>>> consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first figure.
>>>>
>>>> No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not
>>>> terribly meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would keep
>>>> the lights on, a random December Thursday evening.
>>>>
>>>> The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a home-charged
>>>> EV doubles a household's average power consumption.
>>>>
>>>...
>>>
>>>If your figure of 4000 kWh/y per household is correct, and the average
>>>annual mileage per car is 7000 miles (which I got by Googling), then the
>>>car roughly multiplies the average electricity consumption by 1.5.
>>
>> Let's see: typical fuel economy 4.5 miles per kWh. Average mileage 8,000
>>
>> So that's 1780 kWh. I wonder where the widely quoted "doubling" is
>> coming from?
>>
>> Maybe it's this:
>>
>> Based on an average vehicle traveling 13,257km/yr (Statistisches
>> Bundesamt DE) at an average consumption of 25.9 kWh/100 km (ADAC)
>> is 3,336 kWh/yr; average household consumption: 3,207 kWh
>> (musterhaushalt.de)
>>
>> So many different units!
>
>My smallish car uses about 16 kWh/100km in those units. 26 kWh/km would
>be huge, about 2.4 miles/kWh. And in our small house we burn around 10
>kWh/d, or 3650 kWh/y.
>
>Doing a very rough conversion at 10 kW/h per litre of diesel and diesel
>thermal efficiency of 33%, then 16 kWh/100km maps to 59 mi/gal and 25.9
>kWh/199km to 36 mi/gal.

Perhaps this is the difference between averages, and your own
circumstances.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:50:39 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <sv7n8v$abh$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:28 on Thu, 24 Feb
> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:14:52 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> In message <sv7ka6$abh$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:54 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:05:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>>>>>>
>>>>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-
>>bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>>>>>>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>>>>>
>>>>> Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:
>>>>>
>>>>> "equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for a
>>>>> year,
>>>>> or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".
>>>>>
>>>>> More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening surges,
>>>>> but will require charging up again straight away.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
>>>>> consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first figure.
>>>>>
>>>>> No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not
>>>>> terribly meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would keep
>>>>> the lights on, a random December Thursday evening.
>>>>>
>>>>> The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a home-charged
>>>>> EV doubles a household's average power consumption.
>>>>>
>>>>...
>>>>
>>>>If your figure of 4000 kWh/y per household is correct, and the average
>>>>annual mileage per car is 7000 miles (which I got by Googling), then
>>>>the car roughly multiplies the average electricity consumption by 1.5.
>>>
>>> Let's see: typical fuel economy 4.5 miles per kWh. Average mileage
>>> 8,000
>>>
>>> So that's 1780 kWh. I wonder where the widely quoted "doubling" is
>>> coming from?
>>>
>>> Maybe it's this:
>>>
>>> Based on an average vehicle traveling 13,257km/yr (Statistisches
>>> Bundesamt DE) at an average consumption of 25.9 kWh/100 km (ADAC)
>>> is 3,336 kWh/yr; average household consumption: 3,207 kWh
>>> (musterhaushalt.de)
>>>
>>> So many different units!
>>
>>My smallish car uses about 16 kWh/100km in those units. 26 kWh/km would
>>be huge, about 2.4 miles/kWh. And in our small house we burn around 10
>>kWh/d, or 3650 kWh/y.
>>
>>Doing a very rough conversion at 10 kW/h per litre of diesel and diesel
>>thermal efficiency of 33%, then 16 kWh/100km maps to 59 mi/gal and 25.9
>>kWh/199km to 36 mi/gal.
>
> Perhaps this is the difference between averages, and your own
> circumstances.

No averages. You gave the average usage per household. Average electric
car is supposed to be closer to 20 kWh/100km than 15 kWh/100km. Nowhere
near 25.9.

The "doubling" comes from a low average household consumption and an
unsually high figure for the average car usage.

(Anecdata: for us, with BEV + PHEV, it's gone up to about 1.8 times
electricity usage for total of about 1.5 times average mileage for one
car, but I have no decent estimate of the actual electric proportion of
the PHEV.)

nib

In message <sv7p24$abh$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:56 on Thu, 24 Feb
2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:50:39 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In message <sv7n8v$abh$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:28 on Thu, 24 Feb
>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:14:52 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <sv7ka6$abh$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:54 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:05:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-
>>>bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>>>>>>>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for
>>>>>> year, or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening surges,
>>>>>> but will require charging up again straight away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
>>>>>> consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first figure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not
>>>>>> terribly meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would keep
>>>>>> the lights on, a random December Thursday evening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a home-charged
>>>>>> EV doubles a household's average power consumption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>...
>>>>>
>>>>>If your figure of 4000 kWh/y per household is correct, and the average
>>>>>annual mileage per car is 7000 miles (which I got by Googling), then
>>>>>the car roughly multiplies the average electricity consumption by 1.5.
>>>>
>>>> Let's see: typical fuel economy 4.5 miles per kWh. Average mileage
>>>> 8,000
>>>>
>>>> So that's 1780 kWh. I wonder where the widely quoted "doubling" is
>>>> coming from?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it's this:
>>>>
>>>> Based on an average vehicle traveling 13,257km/yr (Statistisches
>>>> Bundesamt DE) at an average consumption of 25.9 kWh/100 km (ADAC)
>>>> is 3,336 kWh/yr; average household consumption: 3,207 kWh
>>>> (musterhaushalt.de)
>>>>
>>>> So many different units!
>>>
>>>My smallish car uses about 16 kWh/100km in those units. 26 kWh/km would
>>>be huge, about 2.4 miles/kWh. And in our small house we burn around 10
>>>kWh/d, or 3650 kWh/y.
>>>
>>>Doing a very rough conversion at 10 kW/h per litre of diesel and diesel
>>>thermal efficiency of 33%, then 16 kWh/100km maps to 59 mi/gal and 25.9
>>>kWh/199km to 36 mi/gal.
>>
>> Perhaps this is the difference between averages, and your own
>> circumstances.
>
>No averages. You gave the average usage per household. Average electric
>car is supposed to be closer to 20 kWh/100km than 15 kWh/100km. Nowhere
>near 25.9.

Perhaps you need to take that up with the Germans who produced those
stats.

>The "doubling" comes from a low average household consumption and an
>unsually high figure for the average car usage.
>
>(Anecdata: for us, with BEV + PHEV, it's gone up to about 1.8 times
>electricity usage for total of about 1.5 times average mileage for one
>car, but I have no decent estimate of the actual electric proportion of
>the PHEV.)

Perhaps we can compromise with 1.5-2.0 "as a rule of thumb", being
nowhere near what I could foresee as a completely uninformed guess of
say 1.1-1.2 by people who think it can't be more than that if running
off just one socket, and having swallowed the marketing puff that "EVs
are almost free to run, compared to an ICE".

ps. My domestic electricity is going up to 29.2p in April, which
suddenly makes commercial charger sites sound competitive.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:11:58 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <sv7p24$abh$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:56 on Thu, 24 Feb
> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:50:39 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> In message <sv7n8v$abh$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:28 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:14:52 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sv7ka6$abh$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:54 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:05:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>> Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-
>>>>bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>>>>>>>>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for
>>>>>>> year, or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening
>>>>>>> surges,
>>>>>>> but will require charging up again straight away.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
>>>>>>> consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first
>>>>>>> figure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not
>>>>>>> terribly meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would
>>>>>>> keep the lights on, a random December Thursday evening.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a
>>>>>>> home-charged EV doubles a household's average power consumption.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If your figure of 4000 kWh/y per household is correct, and the
>>>>>>average annual mileage per car is 7000 miles (which I got by
>>>>>>Googling), then the car roughly multiplies the average electricity
>>>>>>consumption by 1.5.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's see: typical fuel economy 4.5 miles per kWh. Average mileage
>>>>> 8,000
>>>>>
>>>>> So that's 1780 kWh. I wonder where the widely quoted "doubling" is
>>>>> coming from?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it's this:
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on an average vehicle traveling 13,257km/yr (Statistisches
>>>>> Bundesamt DE) at an average consumption of 25.9 kWh/100 km (ADAC)
>>>>> is 3,336 kWh/yr; average household consumption: 3,207 kWh
>>>>> (musterhaushalt.de)
>>>>>
>>>>> So many different units!
>>>>
>>>>My smallish car uses about 16 kWh/100km in those units. 26 kWh/km
>>>>would be huge, about 2.4 miles/kWh. And in our small house we burn
>>>>around 10 kWh/d, or 3650 kWh/y.
>>>>
>>>>Doing a very rough conversion at 10 kW/h per litre of diesel and
>>>>diesel thermal efficiency of 33%, then 16 kWh/100km maps to 59 mi/gal
>>>>and 25.9 kWh/199km to 36 mi/gal.
>>>
>>> Perhaps this is the difference between averages, and your own
>>> circumstances.
>>
>>No averages. You gave the average usage per household. Average electric
>>car is supposed to be closer to 20 kWh/100km than 15 kWh/100km. Nowhere
>>near 25.9.
>
> Perhaps you need to take that up with the Germans who produced those
> stats.
>
>>The "doubling" comes from a low average household consumption and an
>>unsually high figure for the average car usage.
>>
>>(Anecdata: for us, with BEV + PHEV, it's gone up to about 1.8 times
>>electricity usage for total of about 1.5 times average mileage for one
>>car, but I have no decent estimate of the actual electric proportion of
>>the PHEV.)
>
> Perhaps we can compromise with 1.5-2.0 "as a rule of thumb", being
> nowhere near what I could foresee as a completely uninformed guess of
> say 1.1-1.2 by people who think it can't be more than that if running
> off just one socket, and having swallowed the marketing puff that "EVs
> are almost free to run, compared to an ICE".
>
> ps. My domestic electricity is going up to 29.2p in April, which
> suddenly makes commercial charger sites sound competitive.

My overnight is currently 11p but not for long I suspect!

nib

On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:11:58 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sv7p24$abh$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:56 on Thu, 24 Feb
>2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:50:39 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> In message <sv7n8v$abh$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:28 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:14:52 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sv7ka6$abh$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:54 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:05:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-
>>>>bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>>>>>>>>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for
>>>>>>> year, or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening surges,
>>>>>>> but will require charging up again straight away.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
>>>>>>> consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first figure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not
>>>>>>> terribly meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would keep
>>>>>>> the lights on, a random December Thursday evening.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a home-charged
>>>>>>> EV doubles a household's average power consumption.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If your figure of 4000 kWh/y per household is correct, and the average
>>>>>>annual mileage per car is 7000 miles (which I got by Googling), then
>>>>>>the car roughly multiplies the average electricity consumption by 1.5.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's see: typical fuel economy 4.5 miles per kWh. Average mileage
>>>>> 8,000
>>>>>
>>>>> So that's 1780 kWh. I wonder where the widely quoted "doubling" is
>>>>> coming from?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it's this:
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on an average vehicle traveling 13,257km/yr (Statistisches
>>>>> Bundesamt DE) at an average consumption of 25.9 kWh/100 km (ADAC)
>>>>> is 3,336 kWh/yr; average household consumption: 3,207 kWh
>>>>> (musterhaushalt.de)
>>>>>
>>>>> So many different units!
>>>>
>>>>My smallish car uses about 16 kWh/100km in those units. 26 kWh/km would
>>>>be huge, about 2.4 miles/kWh. And in our small house we burn around 10
>>>>kWh/d, or 3650 kWh/y.
>>>>
>>>>Doing a very rough conversion at 10 kW/h per litre of diesel and diesel
>>>>thermal efficiency of 33%, then 16 kWh/100km maps to 59 mi/gal and 25.9
>>>>kWh/199km to 36 mi/gal.
>>>
>>> Perhaps this is the difference between averages, and your own
>>> circumstances.
>>
>>No averages. You gave the average usage per household. Average electric
>>car is supposed to be closer to 20 kWh/100km than 15 kWh/100km. Nowhere
>>near 25.9.
>
>Perhaps you need to take that up with the Germans who produced those
>stats.
>
>>The "doubling" comes from a low average household consumption and an
>>unsually high figure for the average car usage.
>>
>>(Anecdata: for us, with BEV + PHEV, it's gone up to about 1.8 times
>>electricity usage for total of about 1.5 times average mileage for one
>>car, but I have no decent estimate of the actual electric proportion of
>>the PHEV.)
>
>Perhaps we can compromise with 1.5-2.0 "as a rule of thumb", being
>nowhere near what I could foresee as a completely uninformed guess of
>say 1.1-1.2 by people who think it can't be more than that if running
>off just one socket, and having swallowed the marketing puff that "EVs
>are almost free to run, compared to an ICE".
>
>ps. My domestic electricity is going up to 29.2p in April, which
> suddenly makes commercial charger sites sound competitive.

I wonder what rate they'll soon be charging?

In message <sv7tus$abh$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:32 on Thu, 24 Feb
2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:

>> ps. My domestic electricity is going up to 29.2p in April, which
>> suddenly makes commercial charger sites sound competitive.
>
>My overnight is currently 11p but not for long I suspect!

If you are on a fixed rate, you'll known when it's ending. I doubt there
are any standard-variable rates anything like that at the moment.

But if there are, in April all of those are going up at least 50%
--
Roland Perry

In message <gg3f1htamekdk1168i6mkvs398v6tmd38d@4ax.com>, at 13:54:39 on
Thu, 24 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>ps. My domestic electricity is going up to 29.2p in April, which
>> suddenly makes commercial charger sites sound competitive.
>
>I wonder what rate they'll soon be charging?

I'm not subscriber to any of them, but maybe people here who are, have
been given a head's-up?
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 13:57:23 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <gg3f1htamekdk1168i6mkvs398v6tmd38d@4ax.com>, at 13:54:39 on
>Thu, 24 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>ps. My domestic electricity is going up to 29.2p in April, which
>>> suddenly makes commercial charger sites sound competitive.
>>
>>I wonder what rate they'll soon be charging?
>
>I'm not subscriber to any of them, but maybe people here who are, have
>been given a head's-up?

I'm assuming they're not subjected to any price cap, unlike domestic household bills?

On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:33:32 +0000, nib wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:11:58 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In message <sv7p24$abh$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:56 on Thu, 24 Feb
>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:50:39 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <sv7n8v$abh$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:28 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:14:52 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sv7ka6$abh$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:54 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:05:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>>> Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-
>>>>>bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>>>>>>>>>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for
>>>>>>>> year, or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening
>>>>>>>> surges,
>>>>>>>> but will require charging up again straight away.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
>>>>>>>> consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first
>>>>>>>> figure.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not
>>>>>>>> terribly meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would
>>>>>>>> keep the lights on, a random December Thursday evening.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a
>>>>>>>> home-charged EV doubles a household's average power consumption.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If your figure of 4000 kWh/y per household is correct, and the
>>>>>>>average annual mileage per car is 7000 miles (which I got by
>>>>>>>Googling), then the car roughly multiplies the average electricity
>>>>>>>consumption by 1.5.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's see: typical fuel economy 4.5 miles per kWh. Average mileage
>>>>>> 8,000
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So that's 1780 kWh. I wonder where the widely quoted "doubling" is
>>>>>> coming from?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe it's this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on an average vehicle traveling 13,257km/yr (Statistisches
>>>>>> Bundesamt DE) at an average consumption of 25.9 kWh/100 km
>>>>>> (ADAC)
>>>>>> is 3,336 kWh/yr; average household consumption: 3,207 kWh
>>>>>> (musterhaushalt.de)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So many different units!
>>>>>
>>>>>My smallish car uses about 16 kWh/100km in those units. 26 kWh/km
>>>>>would be huge, about 2.4 miles/kWh. And in our small house we burn
>>>>>around 10 kWh/d, or 3650 kWh/y.
>>>>>
>>>>>Doing a very rough conversion at 10 kW/h per litre of diesel and
>>>>>diesel thermal efficiency of 33%, then 16 kWh/100km maps to 59 mi/gal
>>>>>and 25.9 kWh/199km to 36 mi/gal.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps this is the difference between averages, and your own
>>>> circumstances.
>>>
>>>No averages. You gave the average usage per household. Average electric
>>>car is supposed to be closer to 20 kWh/100km than 15 kWh/100km. Nowhere
>>>near 25.9.
>>
>> Perhaps you need to take that up with the Germans who produced those
>> stats.
>>
>>>The "doubling" comes from a low average household consumption and an
>>>unsually high figure for the average car usage.
>>>
>>>(Anecdata: for us, with BEV + PHEV, it's gone up to about 1.8 times
>>>electricity usage for total of about 1.5 times average mileage for one
>>>car, but I have no decent estimate of the actual electric proportion of
>>>the PHEV.)
>>
>> Perhaps we can compromise with 1.5-2.0 "as a rule of thumb", being
>> nowhere near what I could foresee as a completely uninformed guess of
>> say 1.1-1.2 by people who think it can't be more than that if running
>> off just one socket, and having swallowed the marketing puff that "EVs
>> are almost free to run, compared to an ICE".
>>
>> ps. My domestic electricity is going up to 29.2p in April, which
>> suddenly makes commercial charger sites sound competitive.
>
> My overnight is currently 11p but not for long I suspect!
>
> nib

Indeed, just got the letter, now 17p for night units.

nib

In message <svabbc$ddg$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:34:20 on Fri, 25 Feb
2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:

>> My overnight is currently 11p but not for long I suspect!
>
>Indeed, just got the letter, now 17p for night units.

Seems cheap. Just looked up British Gas's Standard Variable Economy 7
tariff and it's 32p day, 21p night.

As opposed to 24p 24x7.

My energy use isn't so skewed to overnight that taking the 8p hit from
7am to Midnight is worth it (just to save 3p overnight).
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:34:20 +0000, nib wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:33:32 +0000, nib wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:11:58 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> In message <sv7p24$abh$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:56 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:50:39 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sv7n8v$abh$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:28 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:14:52 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sv7ka6$abh$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:54 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>> Feb 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:05:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <sv6uf6$9or$1@dont-email.me>, at 03:36:06 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>>>> Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>Giant batteries will provide surge of electricity storage
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14aadf76-94d1-11ec-
>>>>>>bcf4-9dde9b8243da
>>>>>>>>>>?shareToken=d23c861bc82d279c9d5526d5d1dafe87>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Loving the mixture of false precision and hand-wavery:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "equivalent to storing enough energy to power 1,792 homes for
>>>>>>>>> year, or powering 1.6 million kettles simultaneously".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More seriously, it might just deal with winter early evening
>>>>>>>>> surges,
>>>>>>>>> but will require charging up again straight away.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Presumably it's 6.6 gigawatt *hours*, and an average household
>>>>>>>>> consumption is 4,000kWh, so that's pretty close to the first
>>>>>>>>> figure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No doubt houses use more electricity in the winter, so it's not
>>>>>>>>> terribly meaningful in terms of the quantity of houses it would
>>>>>>>>> keep the lights on, a random December Thursday evening.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The elephant in the room is the statistic that having a
>>>>>>>>> home-charged EV doubles a household's average power consumption.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If your figure of 4000 kWh/y per household is correct, and the
>>>>>>>>average annual mileage per car is 7000 miles (which I got by
>>>>>>>>Googling), then the car roughly multiplies the average electricity
>>>>>>>>consumption by 1.5.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's see: typical fuel economy 4.5 miles per kWh. Average mileage
>>>>>>> 8,000
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So that's 1780 kWh. I wonder where the widely quoted "doubling" is
>>>>>>> coming from?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe it's this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Based on an average vehicle traveling 13,257km/yr
>>>>>>> (Statistisches Bundesamt DE) at an average consumption of 25.9
>>>>>>> kWh/100 km (ADAC)
>>>>>>> is 3,336 kWh/yr; average household consumption: 3,207 kWh
>>>>>>> (musterhaushalt.de)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So many different units!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My smallish car uses about 16 kWh/100km in those units. 26 kWh/km
>>>>>>would be huge, about 2.4 miles/kWh. And in our small house we burn
>>>>>>around 10 kWh/d, or 3650 kWh/y.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Doing a very rough conversion at 10 kW/h per litre of diesel and
>>>>>>diesel thermal efficiency of 33%, then 16 kWh/100km maps to 59
>>>>>>mi/gal and 25.9 kWh/199km to 36 mi/gal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps this is the difference between averages, and your own
>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>
>>>>No averages. You gave the average usage per household. Average
>>>>electric car is supposed to be closer to 20 kWh/100km than 15
>>>>kWh/100km. Nowhere near 25.9.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you need to take that up with the Germans who produced those
>>> stats.
>>>
>>>>The "doubling" comes from a low average household consumption and an
>>>>unsually high figure for the average car usage.
>>>>
>>>>(Anecdata: for us, with BEV + PHEV, it's gone up to about 1.8 times
>>>>electricity usage for total of about 1.5 times average mileage for one
>>>>car, but I have no decent estimate of the actual electric proportion
>>>>of the PHEV.)
>>>
>>> Perhaps we can compromise with 1.5-2.0 "as a rule of thumb", being
>>> nowhere near what I could foresee as a completely uninformed guess of
>>> say 1.1-1.2 by people who think it can't be more than that if running
>>> off just one socket, and having swallowed the marketing puff that "EVs
>>> are almost free to run, compared to an ICE".
>>>
>>> ps. My domestic electricity is going up to 29.2p in April, which
>>> suddenly makes commercial charger sites sound competitive.
>>
>> My overnight is currently 11p but not for long I suspect!
>>
>> nib
>
> Indeed, just got the letter, now 17p for night units.
>
> nib

Question came up during this thread on cost of electricity on public car
charging points. Just had the bp Pulse price update, ranges from 38 p/kWh
for AC charging for registered users (30p with a monthly subscription) up
to 55 p/kWh for high-speed DC.

nib