https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329

On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:07:17 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:

>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329

The Times reports a bigger cost of over £100m:

From misstatements and errors that were originally put in the low millions, the amount falsely claimed or kept by the
company has now mushroomed to £72.6 million. The company is also providing for what it expects will be a £30 million
fine from the Department for Transport, an unprecedented penalty for a train operator in the 25 years of the privatised
railway.

In its latest update on the scandal, Go-Ahead said that it was in the process of paying back £51.3 million to the
government. Much of that, £27 million, relates to track access charges going back to 2014 for its fast Javelin trains
running into Kent on the Channel Tunnel rail link.

Another £17 million relates to the wider Southeastern franchise in which the company admitted that overpaid subsidies
and unreturned excess profits go back as far as 2006. The interest bill adds another £7 million.

The company admitted that there was a further, disputed, £21.3 million that it may yet have to pay to the DfT over
miscounting on Southeastern. It said that the department had yet to confirm how much it intended to fine Go-Ahead over
the affair. The company said that having taken legal advice it was setting aside £30 million.

....

Those self-confessed “serious errors” could yet have an impact on Go-Ahead’s continuing operation of the Thameslink and
Southern commuter franchises, known as GTR, which is due to be re-contracted within the next month. Christian Schreyer,
Go-Ahead’s new chief executive, said the company was holding “constructive talks and collaborative negotiations” with
GTR.

When asked whether the company was also at risk of being sacked from GTR, Schreyer said: “We have deeply investigated
and not found any similar matters [to those uncovered at Southeastern] in any other subsidiary.”

Go-Ahead’s woes are piling up. In Norway it has booked losses and provisions of £76.9 million as the government there
warned that it would not continue pandemic-related financial support. It is taking a further £36 million hit in its
deeply lossmaking operations in Germany, where it has struggled with late delivery of new rolling stock and driver
recruitment and taking on new operations.

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/go-ahead-groups-fraud-bill-tops-100m-mbgdp65w9>

In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:

>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329

I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their cracked-record
about franchisees trousering huge profits.

No, it probably won't.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 13:56:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>
>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>
>I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their cracked-record
>about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>
>No, it probably won't.

I'm sure you're right on that one!

This will probably lead to the exit of another private sector operator from the UK rail industry; even if Govia doesn't
lose its two remaining concessions in the short term, Go-Ahead will probably not be seeking or getting any new
contracts.

On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>
> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>
> No, it probably won't.

Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.

--
Clive Page

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb 2022,
>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>
>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their cracked-record
>> about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>
>> No, it probably won't.
>
> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>

The remaining rail concessions do not provide scope for significant
profits.

In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329

>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.

>> No, it probably won't.
>
>Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.

I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
making any noticeable profit at all).

There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
franchising business.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>
>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>
>>> No, it probably won't.
>>
>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>
> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
> making any noticeable profit at all).
>
> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
> franchising business.

This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:

Arriva XC
Arriva Rail London (LO)
Avanti West Coast
C2C
Caledonian Sleeper
Chiltern
EMR
GTR
GA
GWR
Merseyrail
SWR
TfL Rail (Elizabeth Line)
TPE
West Midlands Trains

They are all likely to be making a slender profit currently, but would be
making heavy losees if they were still running under the original franchise
terms. There are also several open access operators, mainly operating on
the ECML.

Five TOCs have been nationalised, with no private sector operator now
involved.

Several groups that once held multiple franchises have now departed UK
rail, probably for good: National Express, Stagecoach, Virgin (and
others?).

In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>
>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>
>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>
>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>
>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>
>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>> franchising business.
>
>This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>
> Arriva XC
> Arriva Rail London (LO)

I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.

What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have the
franchises.

> Avanti West Coast
> C2C
> Caledonian Sleeper
> Chiltern
> EMR
> GTR
> GA
> GWR
> Merseyrail
> SWR
> TfL Rail (Elizabeth Line)
> TPE
> West Midlands Trains

There's going to be multiple Abellio's and First's in there.

>Several groups that once held multiple franchises have now departed UK
>rail, probably for good: National Express, Stagecoach, Virgin (and
>others?).

I know Virgin and NX have no surviving ones, I'd have to check if
Stagecoach didn't.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>
>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>
>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>
>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>
>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>
>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>> franchising business.
>>
>> This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>> a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>
>> Arriva XC
>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>
> I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>
> What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have the
> franchises.

It's a list of franchises, not companies that own, or part-own them.

>
>> Avanti West Coast
>> C2C
>> Caledonian Sleeper
>> Chiltern
>> EMR
>> GTR
>> GA
>> GWR
>> Merseyrail
>> SWR
>> TfL Rail (Elizabeth Line)
>> TPE
>> West Midlands Trains
>
> There's going to be multiple Abellio's and First's in there.
>
>> Several groups that once held multiple franchises have now departed UK
>> rail, probably for good: National Express, Stagecoach, Virgin (and
>> others?).
>
> I know Virgin and NX have no surviving ones, I'd have to check if
> Stagecoach didn't.

No need to check — it doesn't, or I wouldn't have listed it.

The owners include:

Abellio
Arriva (both franchises and open access)
East Japan Railway Company
FirstGroup (both franchises and open access)
Go-Ahead
Keolis
Mitsui
MTR
Serco
Trenitalia

In message <cEsiXhj6dIGiFAQu@perry.uk>, at 07:38:34 on Fri, 25 Feb 2022,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>
>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>
>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>
>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>
>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>
>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>> franchising business.
>>
>>This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>>a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>
>> Arriva XC
>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>
>I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>
>What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have
>the franchises.
>
>> Avanti West Coast
>> C2C
>> Caledonian Sleeper
>> Chiltern
>> EMR
>> GTR
>> GA
>> GWR
>> Merseyrail
>> SWR
>> TfL Rail (Elizabeth Line)
>> TPE
>> West Midlands Trains
>
>There's going to be multiple Abellio's and First's in there.
>
>>Several groups that once held multiple franchises have now departed UK
>>rail, probably for good: National Express, Stagecoach, Virgin (and
>>others?).
>
>I know Virgin and NX have no surviving ones, I'd have to check if
>Stagecoach didn't.

Maybe only Sheffield Supertram (if that counts). HQ seems to have been
selling off things left right and centre - including Megabus, which is
train (tickets) too of course.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:58:20 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <cEsiXhj6dIGiFAQu@perry.uk>, at 07:38:34 on Fri, 25 Feb 2022,
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>>In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>>
>>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>>
>>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>>
>>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>>> franchising business.
>>>
>>>This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>>>a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>>
>>> Arriva XC
>>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>>
>>I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>>
>>What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have
>>the franchises.
>>
>>> Avanti West Coast
>>> C2C
>>> Caledonian Sleeper
>>> Chiltern
>>> EMR
>>> GTR
>>> GA
>>> GWR
>>> Merseyrail
>>> SWR
>>> TfL Rail (Elizabeth Line)
>>> TPE
>>> West Midlands Trains
>>
>>There's going to be multiple Abellio's and First's in there.
>>
>>>Several groups that once held multiple franchises have now departed UK
>>>rail, probably for good: National Express, Stagecoach, Virgin (and
>>>others?).
>>
>>I know Virgin and NX have no surviving ones, I'd have to check if
>>Stagecoach didn't.
>
>Maybe only Sheffield Supertram (if that counts).

No, I didn't include any light rail networks.

> HQ seems to have been
>selling off things left right and centre - including Megabus, which is
>train (tickets) too of course.

Has Megabus been sold? It's still shown as Stagecoach.

In message <5fhh1hp7oks8nr2ib4mvig502gpo88rv5k@4ax.com>, at 12:09:09 on
Fri, 25 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:58:20 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <cEsiXhj6dIGiFAQu@perry.uk>, at 07:38:34 on Fri, 25 Feb 2022,
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>>>In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>>>
>>>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>>>> franchising business.
>>>>
>>>>This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>>>>a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>>>
>>>> Arriva XC
>>>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>>>
>>>I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>>>
>>>What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have
>>>the franchises.
>>>
>>>> Avanti West Coast
>>>> C2C
>>>> Caledonian Sleeper
>>>> Chiltern
>>>> EMR
>>>> GTR
>>>> GA
>>>> GWR
>>>> Merseyrail
>>>> SWR
>>>> TfL Rail (Elizabeth Line)
>>>> TPE
>>>> West Midlands Trains
>>>
>>>There's going to be multiple Abellio's and First's in there.
>>>
>>>>Several groups that once held multiple franchises have now departed UK
>>>>rail, probably for good: National Express, Stagecoach, Virgin (and
>>>>others?).
>>>
>>>I know Virgin and NX have no surviving ones, I'd have to check if
>>>Stagecoach didn't.
>>
>>Maybe only Sheffield Supertram (if that counts).
>
>No, I didn't include any light rail networks.
>
>> HQ seems to have been
>>selling off things left right and centre - including Megabus, which is
>>train (tickets) too of course.
>
>Has Megabus been sold? It's still shown as Stagecoach.

<https://otp.tools.investis.com/clients/uk/stagecoach/rns/regulatory-
story.aspx?cid=273&newsid=1536056>

apparently.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sva5na$iki$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:58:18 on Fri, 25 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>>
>>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>>
>>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>>
>>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>>> franchising business.
>>>
>>> This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>>> a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>>
>>> Arriva XC
>>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>>
>> I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>>
>> What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have the
>> franchises.
>
>It's a list of franchises, not companies that own, or part-own them.

And hence off-topic.

>>> Avanti West Coast
>>> C2C
>>> Caledonian Sleeper
>>> Chiltern
>>> EMR
>>> GTR
>>> GA
>>> GWR
>>> Merseyrail
>>> SWR
>>> TfL Rail (Elizabeth Line)
>>> TPE
>>> West Midlands Trains
>>
>> There's going to be multiple Abellio's and First's in there.
>>
>>> Several groups that once held multiple franchises have now departed UK
>>> rail, probably for good: National Express, Stagecoach, Virgin (and
>>> others?).
>>
>> I know Virgin and NX have no surviving ones, I'd have to check if
>> Stagecoach didn't.
>
>No need to check — it doesn't, or I wouldn't have listed it.
>
>The owners include:
>
> Abellio
> Arriva (both franchises and open access)
> East Japan Railway Company
> FirstGroup (both franchises and open access)
> Go-Ahead
> Keolis
> Mitsui
> MTR
> Serco
> Trenitalia

It's becoming a bit blurred, because some of those have very minority
interests in joint ventures. Perhaps we need to count the joint-ventures
as one "company in the business", although I don't have time now to see
if that increases or reduces the total.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:58:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>>
>>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>>
>>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>>
>>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>>> franchising business.
>>>
>>> This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>>> a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>>
>>> Arriva XC
>>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>>
>> I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>>
>> What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have the
>> franchises.
>
>It's a list of franchises, not companies that own, or part-own them.
>
>>
>>> Avanti West Coast
>>> C2C
>>> Caledonian Sleeper
>>> Chiltern
>>> EMR
>>> GTR
>>> GA
>>> GWR
>>> Merseyrail
>>> SWR
>>> TfL Rail (Elizabeth Line)
>>> TPE
>>> West Midlands Trains
>>
>> There's going to be multiple Abellio's and First's in there.
>>
>>> Several groups that once held multiple franchises have now departed UK
>>> rail, probably for good: National Express, Stagecoach, Virgin (and
>>> others?).
>>
>> I know Virgin and NX have no surviving ones, I'd have to check if
>> Stagecoach didn't.
>
>No need to check — it doesn't, or I wouldn't have listed it.
>
>The owners include:
>
> Abellio
> Arriva (both franchises and open access)
> East Japan Railway Company
> FirstGroup (both franchises and open access)
> Go-Ahead
> Keolis
> Mitsui
> MTR
> Serco
> Trenitalia

As for public vs private sectors:

Foreign public sector:
Abellio
Arriva
Keolis (70% owned by SNCF, 30% by Quebec public sector pension fund)
MTR
Trenitalia
Private sector:
East Japan Railway Company
FirstGroup
Go-Ahead
Mitsui
Serco

So, of the remaining 10 TOC-owning companies, half are foreign public sector and only three are UK private sector. I
assume the two Japanese investors were looking to get a stake in the HS2 operator, but failed to do so; that may reduce
their interest in remaining in the UK market.

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 12:16:21 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <5fhh1hp7oks8nr2ib4mvig502gpo88rv5k@4ax.com>, at 12:09:09 on
>Fri, 25 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>
>>>>I know Virgin and NX have no surviving ones, I'd have to check if
>>>>Stagecoach didn't.
>>>
>>>Maybe only Sheffield Supertram (if that counts).
>>
>>No, I didn't include any light rail networks.
>>
>>> HQ seems to have been
>>>selling off things left right and centre - including Megabus, which is
>>>train (tickets) too of course.
>>
>>Has Megabus been sold? It's still shown as Stagecoach.
>
> <https://otp.tools.investis.com/clients/uk/stagecoach/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=273&newsid=1536056>
>
>apparently.

OK, I'd missed that.

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 12:14:39 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sva5na$iki$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:58:18 on Fri, 25 Feb
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>>>
>>>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>>>> franchising business.
>>>>
>>>> This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>>>> a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>>>
>>>> Arriva XC
>>>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>>>
>>> I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>>>
>>> What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have the
>>> franchises.
>>
>>It's a list of franchises, not companies that own, or part-own them.
>
>And hence off-topic.

Who sez?

In message <30jh1ht8k7uijs0l2h9dj7stdv55ic1ibr@4ax.com>, at 12:31:28 on
Fri, 25 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 12:14:39 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <sva5na$iki$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:58:18 on Fri, 25 Feb
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>>>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>>>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>>>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>>>>> franchising business.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>>>>> a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>>>>
>>>>> Arriva XC
>>>>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>>>>
>>>> I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>>>>
>>>> What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have the
>>>> franchises.
>>>
>>>It's a list of franchises, not companies that own, or part-own them.
>>
>>And hence off-topic.
>
>Who sez?

I do, because the RMT's beef is with the foreign companies (who might
have their fingers in more than one pie), not the several different
pies.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:57:50 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <30jh1ht8k7uijs0l2h9dj7stdv55ic1ibr@4ax.com>, at 12:31:28 on
>Fri, 25 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 12:14:39 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <sva5na$iki$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:58:18 on Fri, 25 Feb
>>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>>>>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>>>>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>>>>>> franchising business.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>>>>>> a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arriva XC
>>>>>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>>>>>
>>>>> What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have the
>>>>> franchises.
>>>>
>>>>It's a list of franchises, not companies that own, or part-own them.
>>>
>>>And hence off-topic.
>>
>>Who sez?
>
>I do, because the RMT's beef is with the foreign companies (who might
>have their fingers in more than one pie), not the several different
>pies.

Huh, I thought RMT's complaint was about any franchises run by anyone but the UK public sector. particularly if the
franchise was capable of making a profit for the franchisee?

In message <b61n1h55cvt37vqogfv2rl27bh1s88ddsk@4ax.com>, at 14:04:37 on
Sun, 27 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:57:50 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <30jh1ht8k7uijs0l2h9dj7stdv55ic1ibr@4ax.com>, at 12:31:28 on
>>Fri, 25 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 12:14:39 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <sva5na$iki$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:58:18 on Fri, 25 Feb
>>>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>>>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>>>>>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>>>>>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>>>>>>> franchising business.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all
>>>>>>>operating under
>>>>>>> a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arriva XC
>>>>>>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have the
>>>>>> franchises.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's a list of franchises, not companies that own, or part-own them.
>>>>
>>>>And hence off-topic.
>>>
>>>Who sez?
>>
>>I do, because the RMT's beef is with the foreign companies (who might
>>have their fingers in more than one pie), not the several different
>>pies.
>
>Huh, I thought RMT's complaint was about any franchises run by anyone
>but the UK public sector. particularly if the franchise was capable of
>making a profit for the franchisee?

Even if the "anyone" included local firms like Natex and Stagecoach (and
the RMT did seem to have a particular beef with foreigners[1]) there's
still not ever been two dozen companies behind however many franchises
there were.

[1] <https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/research-shows-three-quarters-of-uk-
rail-now-foreign-owned/>

"The true scale of the way the railways here in Britain are being used
as a cash-cow to hold down fares and improve services across the rest of
Europe will shock passengers as they prepare for another week of being
crammed into creaking cattle trucks while being bled dry when they pay
for their ticket.

With the planned reprivatisation of the East Coast Mainline by this
rotten Government we are rapidly heading towards a situation where
almost the entire train operation in Britain is in the hands of overseas
companies sucking out profits to benefit their own domestic transport
services."

Presumably he thinks Stagecoach is an overseas company (who won 90% of
the ECML franchise) he's moaning about. Virgin Group, well maybe they
are based in a tax haven, maybe not, nevertheless I doubt they used
their 10% of the profits [what profits - ed] to subsidise their rail
services in that tax haven.
--
Roland Perry

In message <p6ih1hhd6cnh4t35k9a61fojqu1grg9qs6@4ax.com>, at 12:27:37 on
Fri, 25 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:58:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sv8efd$qmm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:25 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <j7pmusF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:35:56 on Thu, 24
>>>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>>>> On 24/02/2022 13:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sv7sdm$1lg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:17 on Thu, 24 Feb
>>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60505329
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if this'll shut the RMT up when putting on their
>>>>>>> cracked-record about franchisees trousering huge profits.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it probably won't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well no, because there is only one down, and another dozen to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there's rather more than one down (Virgin & NX handed back the
>>>>> keys, GoVia and Abellio in trouble, and are any of the others actually
>>>>> making any noticeable profit at all).
>>>>>
>>>>> There ever were two dozen (or even one dozen) companies in the
>>>>> franchising business.
>>>>
>>>> This is the current list of 15 franchises/concessions, all operating under
>>>> a very tight leash, with no revenue responsibility:
>>>>
>>>> Arriva XC
>>>> Arriva Rail London (LO)
>>>
>>> I'll stop you right there. Double-counting Arriva.
>>>
>>> What we need is a list of the (less than a dozen) companies who have the
>>> franchises.
>>
>>It's a list of franchises, not companies that own, or part-own them.
>>
>>>> Avanti West Coast
>>>> C2C
>>>> Caledonian Sleeper
>>>> Chiltern
>>>> EMR
>>>> GTR
>>>> GA
>>>> GWR
>>>> Merseyrail
>>>> SWR
>>>> TfL Rail (Elizabeth Line)
>>>> TPE
>>>> West Midlands Trains
>>>
>>> There's going to be multiple Abellio's and First's in there.
>>>
>>>> Several groups that once held multiple franchises have now departed UK
>>>> rail, probably for good: National Express, Stagecoach, Virgin (and
>>>> others?).
>>>
>>> I know Virgin and NX have no surviving ones, I'd have to check if
>>> Stagecoach didn't.
>>
>>No need to check — it doesn't, or I wouldn't have listed it.
>>
>>The owners include:
>>
>> Abellio
>> Arriva (both franchises and open access)
>> East Japan Railway Company
>> FirstGroup (both franchises and open access)
>> Go-Ahead
>> Keolis
>> Mitsui
>> MTR
>> Serco
>> Trenitalia
>
>As for public vs private sectors:
>
>Foreign public sector:
> Abellio
> Arriva
> Keolis (70% owned by SNCF, 30% by Quebec public sector pension fund)
> MTR
> Trenitalia

Thanks for looking all that up. (Not even half a dozen!)

>Private sector:
> East Japan Railway Company
> FirstGroup
> Go-Ahead
> Mitsui
> Serco

Are First Group, Go-Ahead and Serco foreign-owned?

>So, of the remaining 10 TOC-owning companies, half are foreign public
>sector and only three are UK private sector.

Ah, probably not.

>I assume the two Japanese investors were looking to get a stake in the
>HS2 operator, but failed to do so; that may reduce their interest in
>remaining in the UK market.

--
Roland Perry