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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

SubjectAuthor
* OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthRecliner
+* OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthTheo
|+* OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthRecliner
||`- OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthAnna Noyd-Dryver
|+* OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthColinR
||`* OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthRecliner
|| `* OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthBob
||  `* OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthRecliner
||   +* OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthRoland Perry
||   |`- OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthRecliner
||   `* OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthClive Page
||    `- OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthRecliner
|`- OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthSam Wilson
+- OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthRoland Perry
`- OT: Hyperloop coming down to earthClive Page

1
OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

<sv2k7a$7bf$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:16:43 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:16 UTC

Virgin Hyperloop lays off staff in shifting to cargo

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/64a5f4d4-9364-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=9f1904413cc866348af32e5500270edd>

A futuristic venture backed by Sir Richard Branson has made nearly half its
staff redundant as the company developing the high-speed transport system
switches away from passenger travel to freight.

Virgin Hyperloop said that 111 people had been laid off on Friday, as the
group focuses on delivering a cargo version of the experimental transport,
which propels pods through low-pressure tubes at speeds of up to 670mph.

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

<mLf*CItHy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: 22 Feb 2022 13:17:36 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Originator: theom@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([212.13.197.229])
 by: Theo - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:17 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Virgin Hyperloop lays off staff in shifting to cargo
>
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/64a5f4d4-9364-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=9f1904413cc866348af32e5500270edd>
>
> A futuristic venture backed by Sir Richard Branson has made nearly half its
> staff redundant as the company developing the high-speed transport system
> switches away from passenger travel to freight.

Does anyone actually need high speed freight? Many goods are mass produced
and for larger suppliers it's cheaper to open a distribution centre that
keeps them closer to the consumer. For parcels, ie small/niche suppliers,
this is in competition with air freight.

Are there many high speed railfreight operations still going? I think the
La Poste TGV has been retired. China has some kind of fast delivery
network, particularly for manufacturers, but I think it's conventional
freight trains - although they're trialling a HS freight unit taking
airline-like containers.

But none of them are building their own right of way for the purpose.
How will Virgin make it pay?

Theo

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

<aoo91hl9fh3t0ee0peshm52mjqv0pa0n4t@4ax.com>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Message-ID: <aoo91hl9fh3t0ee0peshm52mjqv0pa0n4t@4ax.com>
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:26 UTC

On 22 Feb 2022 13:17:36 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Virgin Hyperloop lays off staff in shifting to cargo
>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/64a5f4d4-9364-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=9f1904413cc866348af32e5500270edd>
>>
>> A futuristic venture backed by Sir Richard Branson has made nearly half its
>> staff redundant as the company developing the high-speed transport system
>> switches away from passenger travel to freight.
>
>Does anyone actually need high speed freight? Many goods are mass produced
>and for larger suppliers it's cheaper to open a distribution centre that
>keeps them closer to the consumer. For parcels, ie small/niche suppliers,
>this is in competition with air freight.
>
>Are there many high speed railfreight operations still going? I think the
>La Poste TGV has been retired. China has some kind of fast delivery
>network, particularly for manufacturers, but I think it's conventional
>freight trains - although they're trialling a HS freight unit taking
>airline-like containers.
>
>But none of them are building their own right of way for the purpose.
>How will Virgin make it pay?

Agreed.

This looks like a desperate, face-saving attempt to salvage whatever they can from a misconceived project. We discussed
here the extreme unlikelihood that the passenger version could be viable, and that seems finally to have sunk in. So
they're now looking to see if there's some possibility that freight (where some of the objections we came up with don't
apply) could use the concept instead. Technically, it probably could, but the economics look hopeless. Maybe Dubai will
create some snazzy showpiece example, regardless of the cost, but no normal freight operations will use it.

It's interesting that Elon Musk, whose idea this was, didn't use his capital raising super powers to invest anything in
this technology.

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

<unGe$P0cUOFiFANb@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:29:00 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:29 UTC

In message <sv2k7a$7bf$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:16:43 on Tue, 22 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Virgin Hyperloop lays off staff in shifting to cargo
>
><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/64a5f4d4-9364-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243d
>a?shareToken=9f1904413cc866348af32e5500270edd>
>
>A futuristic venture backed by Sir Richard Branson has made nearly half its
>staff redundant as the company developing the high-speed transport system
>switches away from passenger travel to freight.
>
>Virgin Hyperloop said that 111 people had been laid off on Friday, as the
>group focuses on delivering a cargo version of the experimental transport,
>which propels pods through low-pressure tubes at speeds of up to 670mph.

Reminds me a little of this: <http://www.perry.co.uk/images/parcel-mail-
rail.jpg>

Maybe in the distant future they'll install some seats and turn it into
a tourist attraction.
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:39:47 +0000
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 by: ColinR - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:39 UTC

On 22/02/2022 13:17, Theo wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Virgin Hyperloop lays off staff in shifting to cargo
>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/64a5f4d4-9364-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=9f1904413cc866348af32e5500270edd>
>>
>> A futuristic venture backed by Sir Richard Branson has made nearly half its
>> staff redundant as the company developing the high-speed transport system
>> switches away from passenger travel to freight.
>
> Does anyone actually need high speed freight?

I think the mere fact that both freight ships (mainly container ships)
and freight aircraft co-exist shows that there is room for both speeds!

--
Colin

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Message-ID: <3or91hdeoaqdtb0fsm5i9m90r3mcna4161@4ax.com>
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 14:17 UTC

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:39:47 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 22/02/2022 13:17, Theo wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Virgin Hyperloop lays off staff in shifting to cargo
>>>
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/64a5f4d4-9364-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=9f1904413cc866348af32e5500270edd>
>>>
>>> A futuristic venture backed by Sir Richard Branson has made nearly half its
>>> staff redundant as the company developing the high-speed transport system
>>> switches away from passenger travel to freight.
>>
>> Does anyone actually need high speed freight?
>
>I think the mere fact that both freight ships (mainly container ships)
>and freight aircraft co-exist shows that there is room for both speeds!

Air freight is used over medium to long distances, where the increased speed has a meaningful effect on the delivery
time. Roughly, an hour in the air saves a day on the land. Using air freight can save days or even weeks in transit. It
makes it possible to ship fragile or short life goods that couldn't survive for weeks at sea.

But the cost of building the Hyperloop pipes will restrict them to short distances, where the time saving might only be
a few hours at the most. Almost no freight could sustain the huge cost for such a modest benefit.

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

<sv2rbn$rhb$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 14:18:31 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 14:18 UTC

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Virgin Hyperloop lays off staff in shifting to cargo
>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/64a5f4d4-9364-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=9f1904413cc866348af32e5500270edd>
>>
>> A futuristic venture backed by Sir Richard Branson has made nearly half its
>> staff redundant as the company developing the high-speed transport system
>> switches away from passenger travel to freight.
>
> Does anyone actually need high speed freight? Many goods are mass produced
> and for larger suppliers it's cheaper to open a distribution centre that
> keeps them closer to the consumer. For parcels, ie small/niche suppliers,
> this is in competition with air freight.
>
> Are there many high speed railfreight operations still going? I think the
> La Poste TGV has been retired. China has some kind of fast delivery
> network, particularly for manufacturers, but I think it's conventional
> freight trains - although they're trialling a HS freight unit taking
> airline-like containers.

The Class 325s have made a comeback in recent years, but not to the same
extent as when they were new. According to Wikipedia the TGV La Poste
trains were retired in 2015. The Wikipedia articles on those and the 325s
also say there have been freight operations in Italy with the ETR500 since
2018, but the linked article doesn’t mention any such.
Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

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From: ema...@domain.com (Bob)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:55:25 +0100
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 by: Bob - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 14:55 UTC

On 2022-02-22 14:17:19 +0000, Recliner said:

> On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:39:47 +0000, ColinR
> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 22/02/2022 13:17, Theo wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Virgin Hyperloop lays off staff in shifting to cargo
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/64a5f4d4-9364-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=9f1904413cc866348af32e5500270edd>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A futuristic venture backed by Sir Richard Branson has made nearly half its
>>>> staff redundant as the company developing the high-speed transport system
>>>> switches away from passenger travel to freight.
>>>
>>> Does anyone actually need high speed freight?
>>
>> I think the mere fact that both freight ships (mainly container ships)
>> and freight aircraft co-exist shows that there is room for both speeds!
>
> Air freight is used over medium to long distances, where the increased
> speed has a meaningful effect on the delivery
> time. Roughly, an hour in the air saves a day on the land. Using air
> freight can save days or even weeks in transit. It
> makes it possible to ship fragile or short life goods that couldn't
> survive for weeks at sea.
>
> But the cost of building the Hyperloop pipes will restrict them to
> short distances, where the time saving might only be
> a few hours at the most. Almost no freight could sustain the huge cost
> for such a modest benefit.

Though an aweful lot of air freight is handled by passenger aircraft
rather than dedicated freight aircraft, which changes the economics
quite a bit. I have a hard time seeing how such an
infrastructure-heavy system as hyperloop could find a buisness case for
freight alone (or at all).

Robin

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

<j7kevfF4bqtU2@mid.individual.net>

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From: use...@page2.eu (Clive Page)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:49:03 +0000
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 by: Clive Page - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:49 UTC

On 22/02/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
> Virgin Hyperloop lays off staff in shifting to cargo
>
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/64a5f4d4-9364-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=9f1904413cc866348af32e5500270edd>
>
> A futuristic venture backed by Sir Richard Branson has made nearly half its
> staff redundant as the company developing the high-speed transport system
> switches away from passenger travel to freight.
>
> Virgin Hyperloop said that 111 people had been laid off on Friday, as the
> group focuses on delivering a cargo version of the experimental transport,
> which propels pods through low-pressure tubes at speeds of up to 670mph.

It would be ideal for fast food.

--
Clive Page

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

<sv33om$q1l$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:41:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:41 UTC

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-02-22 14:17:19 +0000, Recliner said:
>
>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:39:47 +0000, ColinR
>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/02/2022 13:17, Theo wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Virgin Hyperloop lays off staff in shifting to cargo
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/64a5f4d4-9364-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=9f1904413cc866348af32e5500270edd>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A futuristic venture backed by Sir Richard Branson has made nearly half its
>>>>> staff redundant as the company developing the high-speed transport system
>>>>> switches away from passenger travel to freight.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone actually need high speed freight?
>>>
>>> I think the mere fact that both freight ships (mainly container ships)
>>> and freight aircraft co-exist shows that there is room for both speeds!
>>
>> Air freight is used over medium to long distances, where the increased
>> speed has a meaningful effect on the delivery
>> time. Roughly, an hour in the air saves a day on the land. Using air
>> freight can save days or even weeks in transit. It
>> makes it possible to ship fragile or short life goods that couldn't
>> survive for weeks at sea.
>>
>> But the cost of building the Hyperloop pipes will restrict them to
>> short distances, where the time saving might only be
>> a few hours at the most. Almost no freight could sustain the huge cost
>> for such a modest benefit.
>
> Though an aweful lot of air freight is handled by passenger aircraft
> rather than dedicated freight aircraft, which changes the economics
> quite a bit. I have a hard time seeing how such an
> infrastructure-heavy system as hyperloop could find a buisness case for
> freight alone (or at all).
>

I can't think of any question for which the Hyperloop is the right answer.

The more you think about it, the weaker the case for a freight Hyperloop.
Unlike air freighters, which are almost as fast, the Hyperloop needs
expensive, energy-consuming, continuous surface infrastructure from end to
end, needing bridges to cross roads, rivers and railways. Routes must be
planned from day one, and are then fixed. Even switches are hard to
imagine.

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

<FV80ThC2URFiFA6i@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:54:14 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:54 UTC

In message <sv33om$q1l$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:41:58 on Tue, 22 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>I can't think of any question for which the Hyperloop is the right answer.

Vanity project to keep CEO in the newspapers?
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:31:17 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:31 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sv33om$q1l$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:41:58 on Tue, 22 Feb
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> I can't think of any question for which the Hyperloop is the right answer.
>
> Vanity project to keep CEO in the newspapers?

It doesn't seem to have done much to keep Raja Narayanan's name in the
newspapers.

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:44:43 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:44 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> It's interesting that Elon Musk, whose idea this was, didn't use his
> capital raising super powers to invest anything in
> this technology.
>

He's busy digging tunnels under Vegas for his employees to drive his taxis
through.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

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From: use...@page2.eu (Clive Page)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:44:35 +0000
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 by: Clive Page - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:44 UTC

On 22/02/2022 16:41, Recliner wrote:
> I can't think of any question for which the Hyperloop is the right answer.
>
> The more you think about it, the weaker the case for a freight Hyperloop.
> Unlike air freighters, which are almost as fast, the Hyperloop needs
> expensive, energy-consuming, continuous surface infrastructure from end to
> end, needing bridges to cross roads, rivers and railways. Routes must be
> planned from day one, and are then fixed. Even switches are hard to
> imagine.

I agree. A safe evacuation would be almost impossible: suppose a hyperloop train gets stuck between stations, as does happen even in the best-run systems, once in a while. You have to get the passengers out when they have limited breathable air and power, and their pod is surrounded by vacuum, and they can't simply get out the end of the pod and walk along the tracks to the nearest station. And the tube may be buried a long way beneath the surface, e.g. when crossing a hill or mountain range.

But for freight it is just a tiny bit simpler, as the pods could have a near-vacuum inside as well as out. Indeed for foodstuffs that are already vacuum-packed, the vacuum might even be an advantage. But it's still all hyper-loopy, in my opinion.

--
Clive Page

Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Hyperloop coming down to earth
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 16:29:20 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 16:29 UTC

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 16:41, Recliner wrote:
>> I can't think of any question for which the Hyperloop is the right answer.
>>
>> The more you think about it, the weaker the case for a freight Hyperloop.
>> Unlike air freighters, which are almost as fast, the Hyperloop needs
>> expensive, energy-consuming, continuous surface infrastructure from end to
>> end, needing bridges to cross roads, rivers and railways. Routes must be
>> planned from day one, and are then fixed. Even switches are hard to
>> imagine.
>
> I agree. A safe evacuation would be almost impossible: suppose a
> hyperloop train gets stuck between stations, as does happen even in the
> best-run systems, once in a while. You have to get the passengers out
> when they have limited breathable air and power, and their pod is
> surrounded by vacuum, and they can't simply get out the end of the pod
> and walk along the tracks to the nearest station. And the tube may be
> buried a long way beneath the surface, e.g. when crossing a hill or mountain range.
>
> But for freight it is just a tiny bit simpler, as the pods could have a
> near-vacuum inside as well as out. Indeed for foodstuffs that are
> already vacuum-packed, the vacuum might even be an advantage. But it's
> still all hyper-loopy, in my opinion.
>

Many cargo products wouldn't react well to being placed in a near-vacuum.
Imagine you have a product in a package sealed in cellophane — it would
explode. And you certainly couldn't ship any living organisms, or things
like fruit or vegetables.

Among the many other flaws is the risk of an air leak into the partially
evacuated tube. The speeding capsule would suddenly be hit by a high speed
pressure wave of air. At the very least, the capsule and its contents would
have very bumpy ride, but the casule could well break up, as it wouldn't be
designed to travel at high speeds through air at atmospheric pressure.

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