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aus+uk / uk.railway / Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

SubjectAuthor
* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksGraeme Wall
+* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksAnna Noyd-Dryver
|+* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMuttley
||`* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksAnna Noyd-Dryver
|| `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksColinR
||  +* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMarland
||  |+- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksNY
||  |`- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksColinR
||  `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksAnna Noyd-Dryver
||   `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMuttley
||    +* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksAnna Noyd-Dryver
||    |`- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMuttley
||    `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksBob
||     +- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMatthew Geier
||     `- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksTheo
|+* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMarland
||`* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksGraeme Wall
|| +- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksRoland Perry
|| `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksCertes
||  `- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksSam Wilson
|`* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksnib
| `- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksRecliner
`* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMuttley
 +* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksRecliner
 |`* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMuttley
 | `- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksAnna Noyd-Dryver
 `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksAnna Noyd-Dryver
  +* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksNY
  |+* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksChris J Dixon
  ||+* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksNY
  |||`- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMarland
  ||`* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksBob
  || `- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksChris J Dixon
  |`* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksGraeme Wall
  | `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMarland
  |  +* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMarland
  |  |+- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksRoland Perry
  |  |`* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksAnna Noyd-Dryver
  |  | `- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksRoland Perry
  |  `- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksRoland Perry
  `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMuttley
   +* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMarland
   |`* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMuttley
   | `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMarland
   |  `- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMuttley
   +* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksAnna Noyd-Dryver
   |+* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksCertes
   ||`- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksAnna Noyd-Dryver
   |`- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksMuttley
   `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksCharles Ellson
    `* Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksCertes
     `- Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracksBob

Pages:123
Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

<svlert$q4a$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:41:49 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:41 UTC

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

<svlfhh$vjp$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:53:21 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:53 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>

Remind me again why 3rd rail electrification is such a good idea? ;)

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:59:23 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:59 UTC

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:41:49 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>

They might want to think about updating the circuit breaker.

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

<svlg60$1jk7$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 16:04:16 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 16:04 UTC

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:53:21 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>
>
>Remind me again why 3rd rail electrification is such a good idea? ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AGHeJSygp8

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 16:50:14 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 16:50 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:41:49 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>
> They might want to think about updating the circuit breaker.
>

So that it blows every time a 10-car train leaves the station?

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

<j872j8Fmbu3U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: gemeha...@btinternet.co.uk (Marland)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: 1 Mar 2022 17:14:16 GMT
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 by: Marland - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 17:14 UTC

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>
>
> Remind me again why 3rd rail electrification is such a good idea? ;)
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

To be honest a bicycle thrown off an overbridge onto catenary can be a bit
disruptive as well.

I’m just surprised it doesn’t happen more often.

GH

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

<svlu85$pck$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:04:21 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:04 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:41:49 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>
> They might want to think about updating the circuit breaker.
>
>

Then it'd probably trip when multiple trains took power at the same time.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

<svlu86$pck$2@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:04:22 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:04 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:53:21 -0000 (UTC)
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>>
>>
>> Remind me again why 3rd rail electrification is such a good idea? ;)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AGHeJSygp8
>
>

The pan-drop ones would be solved by opening the VCB/ABB (main circuit
breaker on the loco/unit) before dropping the pan, as I thought every
traction would do automatically.

The one going across the section break would not occur if the equipment in
the OLE was properly adjusted, I think.

Also, all extinguished themselves safely.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:42:50 -0000
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 by: NY - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:42 UTC

"Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
news:svlu85$pck$1@dont-email.me...
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:41:49 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>
>> They might want to think about updating the circuit breaker.
>
> Then it'd probably trip when multiple trains took power at the same time.

If the circuit breaker was set to allow the maximum permitted number of
trains in an electrical section, would that have prevented the scooter
catching fire? The report doesn't clarify whether it was a petrol-powered
scooter (effectively a step-through motorbike) or whether it was an electric
scooter? The videos show flickering which look more like variable amounts of
arcing rather than petrol flames (though I could be wrong) as if the
electric arcing was the source. - or maybe if it was an electric scooter, it
might be the battery in flames.

Do trains still carry a device for deliberately tripping the third-rail
circuit breakers in the event of a crash so the power is removed *and stays
removed* to make it safe to rescue people? What sort of current flows while
that is applied, and how much headroom is there over and above the normal
current drawn by all the trains in an electrical section in the worst case
where they are all setting off from rest?

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

<svm0jn$db9$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:44:46 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: ColinR - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:44 UTC

On 01/03/2022 20:04, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:53:21 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Remind me again why 3rd rail electrification is such a good idea? ;)
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AGHeJSygp8
>>
>>
>
> The pan-drop ones would be solved by opening the VCB/ABB (main circuit
> breaker on the loco/unit) before dropping the pan, as I thought every
> traction would do automatically.
>
> The one going across the section break would not occur if the equipment in
> the OLE was properly adjusted, I think.
>
> Also, all extinguished themselves safely.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

OLE flashes, interesting video but as you say all extinguished
themselves. 3rd rail, many flashes in normal operation, again
extinguishing themselves. No real difference.

As to a scooter being dropped onto a live conductor, although the proof
is with the 3rd rail incident, I suspect something similar would happen
with an appropriate lump of metal being dropped onto OLE. And, it could
well be that knitting would need significant repair. I suspect the more
robust 3rd rail in this incident required a lot less rectification work.

--
Colin

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

<8a2t1hhnqvb6r9so74np7q8i0ba11g3q6f@4ax.com>

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From: chr...@cdixon.me.uk (Chris J Dixon)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 21:04:56 +0000
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 by: Chris J Dixon - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 21:04 UTC

NY wrote:

>Do trains still carry a device for deliberately tripping the third-rail
>circuit breakers in the event of a crash so the power is removed *and stays
>removed* to make it safe to rescue people? What sort of current flows while
>that is applied, and how much headroom is there over and above the normal
>current drawn by all the trains in an electrical section in the worst case
>where they are all setting off from rest?

Yes AFAIK, they do still carry a shorting bar, a device which is
not to be used lightly.

I have not seen one used, but I gather the instruction is to turn
your back on it as it is applied, to avoid seeing the arc.

The fault current is of the order of thousands of Amps, and it is
said that there are indeed parts of the network where the
distance from the section breaker is such that it is not
guaranteed to trip.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 21:20:49 -0000
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 by: NY - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 21:20 UTC

"Chris J Dixon" <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote in message
news:8a2t1hhnqvb6r9so74np7q8i0ba11g3q6f@4ax.com...
> NY wrote:
>
>>Do trains still carry a device for deliberately tripping the third-rail
>>circuit breakers in the event of a crash so the power is removed *and
>>stays
>>removed* to make it safe to rescue people? What sort of current flows
>>while
>>that is applied, and how much headroom is there over and above the normal
>>current drawn by all the trains in an electrical section in the worst case
>>where they are all setting off from rest?
>
> Yes AFAIK, they do still carry a shorting bar, a device which is
> not to be used lightly.
>
> I have not seen one used, but I gather the instruction is to turn
> your back on it as it is applied, to avoid seeing the arc.

I've not seen one, either "static" or in use.
https://static2.shop033.com/resources/7A/890/picture/D1/85557969.jpg looks
to have very thin metal for the shorting contact: I'd have thought that
thousands of amps (so around 1000 * 750 = 750 kW) would have just melted
that little metal strip. I'd imagined a cross-section similar to that of the
rail.

> The fault current is of the order of thousands of Amps, and it is
> said that there are indeed parts of the network where the
> distance from the section breaker is such that it is not
> guaranteed to trip.

I can imagine if you are a long way from the section breaker, the resistance
of the conductor rail may not allow enough current to be drawn to trip the
breaker.

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: gemeha...@btinternet.co.uk (Marland)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: 1 Mar 2022 21:21:54 GMT
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 by: Marland - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 21:21 UTC

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>
> As to a scooter being dropped onto a live conductor, although the proof
> is with the 3rd rail incident, I suspect something similar would happen
> with an appropriate lump of metal being dropped onto OLE. And, it could
> well be that knitting would need significant repair. I suspect the more
> robust 3rd rail in this incident required a lot less rectification work.
>

Third rail as used in the UK always needs a lot of rectification.

I’ll get my coat..

GH

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 21:33:40 -0000
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 by: NY - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 21:33 UTC

"Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:j87h3iFp520U1@mid.individual.net...
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> As to a scooter being dropped onto a live conductor, although the proof
>> is with the 3rd rail incident, I suspect something similar would happen
>> with an appropriate lump of metal being dropped onto OLE. And, it could
>> well be that knitting would need significant repair. I suspect the more
>> robust 3rd rail in this incident required a lot less rectification work.
>>
>
> Third rail as used in the UK always needs a lot of rectification.
>
> I’ll get my coat..

You can get mine while you're at it. I was wondering whether to make the
same sort of comment ;-)

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 22:00:08 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 22:00 UTC

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/03/2022 20:04, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:53:21 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Remind me again why 3rd rail electrification is such a good idea? ;)
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AGHeJSygp8
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The pan-drop ones would be solved by opening the VCB/ABB (main circuit
>> breaker on the loco/unit) before dropping the pan, as I thought every
>> traction would do automatically.
>>
>> The one going across the section break would not occur if the equipment in
>> the OLE was properly adjusted, I think.
>>
>> Also, all extinguished themselves safely.
>>
>
> OLE flashes, interesting video but as you say all extinguished
> themselves. 3rd rail, many flashes in normal operation, again
> extinguishing themselves. No real difference.
>
> As to a scooter being dropped onto a live conductor, although the proof
> is with the 3rd rail incident, I suspect something similar would happen
> with an appropriate lump of metal being dropped onto OLE. And, it could
> well be that knitting would need significant repair. I suspect the more
> robust 3rd rail in this incident required a lot less rectification work.
>

Because the voltage is higher, the trip current for OLE is a lot lower, so
you wouldn't get sustained arcing like this.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: 1 Mar 2022 22:19:41 GMT
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 by: Marland - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 22:19 UTC

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Chris J Dixon" <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote in message
> news:8a2t1hhnqvb6r9so74np7q8i0ba11g3q6f@4ax.com...
>> NY wrote:
>>
>>> Do trains still carry a device for deliberately tripping the third-rail
>>> circuit breakers in the event of a crash so the power is removed *and
>>> stays
>>> removed* to make it safe to rescue people? What sort of current flows
>>> while
>>> that is applied, and how much headroom is there over and above the normal
>>> current drawn by all the trains in an electrical section in the worst case
>>> where they are all setting off from rest?
>>
>> Yes AFAIK, they do still carry a shorting bar, a device which is
>> not to be used lightly.
>>
>> I have not seen one used, but I gather the instruction is to turn
>> your back on it as it is applied, to avoid seeing the arc.
>
> I've not seen one, either "static" or in use.
> https://static2.shop033.com/resources/7A/890/picture/D1/85557969.jpg looks
> to have very thin metal for the shorting contact: I'd have thought that
> thousands of amps (so around 1000 * 750 = 750 kW) would have just melted
> that little metal strip. I'd imagined a cross-section similar to that of the
> rail.
>

Buy your own for thirty Quid.

<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313892770587>

Not the first one I have seen on there either, a few years back there were
some designed for the LU 4 rail system as seen about 7mins on this
training video.
<https://youtu.be/xumonIs52Lk>

I believe both those types have been superseded by more modern designs with
the addition on the third rail network permanently fixed installations
that can be operated remotely to ground a section of third rail though the
latter are more for protection of staff when they have to work on the
track.
This is an article. about them and the rollout.

<https://www.railengineer.co.uk/a-big-step-forward/>

GH

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 22:28:27 +0000
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 by: ColinR - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 22:28 UTC

On 01/03/2022 21:21, Marland wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> As to a scooter being dropped onto a live conductor, although the proof
>> is with the 3rd rail incident, I suspect something similar would happen
>> with an appropriate lump of metal being dropped onto OLE. And, it could
>> well be that knitting would need significant repair. I suspect the more
>> robust 3rd rail in this incident required a lot less rectification work.
>>
>
> Third rail as used in the UK always needs a lot of rectification.
>
> I’ll get my coat..
>
> GH
>

;-)

--
Colin

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 06:52:31 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 06:52 UTC

On 01/03/2022 17:14, Marland wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>>
>>
>> Remind me again why 3rd rail electrification is such a good idea? ;)
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
> To be honest a bicycle thrown off an overbridge onto catenary can be a bit
> disruptive as well.
>
> I’m just surprised it doesn’t happen more often.
>

Especially in Southampton, I'm mildly surprised that the scooter hire
companies are still there given their machines are routinely vandalised
and dumped all over the city.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
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 by: Graeme Wall - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 06:54 UTC

On 01/03/2022 20:42, NY wrote:
> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
> news:svlu85$pck$1@dont-email.me...
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:41:49 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>>
>>> They might want to think about updating the circuit breaker.
>>
>> Then it'd probably trip when multiple trains took power at the same time.
>
> If the circuit breaker was set to allow the maximum permitted number of
> trains in an electrical section, would that have prevented the scooter
> catching fire? The report doesn't clarify whether it was a
> petrol-powered scooter (effectively a step-through motorbike) or whether
> it was an electric scooter? The videos show flickering which look more
> like variable amounts of arcing rather than petrol flames (though I
> could be wrong) as if the electric arcing was the source. - or maybe if
> it was an electric scooter, it might be the battery in flames.

Almost certainly an electric scooter, Southampton is one of the
so-called test locations to try them out. Makes being a pedestrian there
even more hazardous than usual.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 07:10:16 +0000
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 07:10 UTC

In message <svn47f$gcn$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:52:31 on Wed, 2 Mar 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 01/03/2022 17:14, Marland wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>>>
>>> Remind me again why 3rd rail electrification is such a good idea? ;)
>>>
>> To be honest a bicycle thrown off an overbridge onto catenary can
>>be a bit disruptive as well.

>> I’m just surprised it doesn’t happen more often.
>
>Especially in Southampton, I'm mildly surprised that the scooter hire
>companies are still there given their machines are routinely vandalised
>and dumped all over the city.

While perhaps you are trying to move the discussion on to the wider
issue of e-scooters in trial areas (where Cambridge has recently had
its trial extended by a few months for unexplained reasons) do we know
what kind of scooter it was at Southampton.

The word could apply to anything from a child's toy to a Class three
mobility scooter (via both legal and illegal e-scooters, and class two
mobility scooters).

Most of the rail-related news regarding scooters has historically been
poorly driven mobility scooters doing things like failing to stop having
entered a vestibule, and crashing into the opposite set of doors.

As for the lady saying it sounded like a bomb had gone off, I suspect
she needs to recalibrate herself by viewing contemporaneous footage from
Ukraine. Or maybe she meant something like an IRA letter-bomb.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: gemeha...@btinternet.co.uk (Marland)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: 2 Mar 2022 08:06:02 GMT
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 by: Marland - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 08:06 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/03/2022 20:42, NY wrote:

>> trains in an electrical section, would that have prevented the scooter
>> catching fire? The report doesn't clarify whether it was a
>> petrol-powered scooter (effectively a step-through motorbike) or whether
>> it was an electric scooter? The videos show flickering which look more
>> like variable amounts of arcing rather than petrol flames (though I
>> could be wrong) as if the electric arcing was the source. - or maybe if
>> it was an electric scooter, it might be the battery in flames.
>
>
> Almost certainly an electric scooter, Southampton is one of the
> so-called test locations to try them out. Makes being a pedestrian there
> even more hazardous than usual.
>
>

Conversation with a Southampton student yesterday seems to support that
as amongst themselves
they were calling it a Voi scooter, Voi being the licensed operator for
the Southampton trial.

Some suggestion was made that those who did it had not fully grasped the
rapid charging procedure.

GH

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: gemeha...@btinternet.co.uk (Marland)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: 2 Mar 2022 09:06:45 GMT
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 by: Marland - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 09:06 UTC

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 01/03/2022 20:42, NY wrote:
>
>>> trains in an electrical section, would that have prevented the scooter
>>> catching fire? The report doesn't clarify whether it was a
>>> petrol-powered scooter (effectively a step-through motorbike) or whether
>>> it was an electric scooter?
>>
>> Almost certainly an electric scooter, Southampton is one of the
>> so-called test locations to try them out. Makes being a pedestrian there
>> even more hazardous than usual.
>>
>>
>
> Conversation with a Southampton student yesterday seems to support that
> as amongst themselves
> they were calling it a Voi scooter, Voi being the licensed operator for
> the Southampton trial.
>
> Some suggestion was made that those who did it had not fully grasped the
> rapid charging procedure.
>
>
>
Not so sure the student Buzz was that accurate, the Voi scooters are red
and reasonably substantial,
this shot probably taken from the over bridge shoes the remains of a
yellow/green machine much lighter in construction may not have even be
electric unless those components have been fully burnt away , but at least
nothing like a Vesta or Lambretta style machine.

<https://twitter.com/ani/status/1498395056214089731>

GH

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 09:18:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 09:18 UTC

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 16:50:14 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:41:49 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>
>> They might want to think about updating the circuit breaker.
>>
>
>So that it blows every time a 10-car train leaves the station?

I doubt a 10 car train is the same way as a metal scooter causing a dead
short which is almost certainly what this was with the fuel then catching
fire.

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 09:20 UTC

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:04:21 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:41:49 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>
>> They might want to think about updating the circuit breaker.
>>
>>
>
>Then it'd probably trip when multiple trains took power at the same time.

This would have been a dead short from a metal scooter. Plus its probably not
beyond the wit of man for the signalling and power supply to be integrated
so it knows when there's a train there/not there and can trip accordingly.

Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Southampton station fire after scooter thrown on to rail tracks
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 09:23 UTC

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 22:00:08 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 01/03/2022 20:04, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:53:21 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-60571022>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Remind me again why 3rd rail electrification is such a good idea? ;)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AGHeJSygp8
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The pan-drop ones would be solved by opening the VCB/ABB (main circuit
>>> breaker on the loco/unit) before dropping the pan, as I thought every
>>> traction would do automatically.
>>>
>>> The one going across the section break would not occur if the equipment in
>>> the OLE was properly adjusted, I think.
>>>
>>> Also, all extinguished themselves safely.
>>>
>>
>> OLE flashes, interesting video but as you say all extinguished
>> themselves. 3rd rail, many flashes in normal operation, again
>> extinguishing themselves. No real difference.
>>
>> As to a scooter being dropped onto a live conductor, although the proof
>> is with the 3rd rail incident, I suspect something similar would happen
>> with an appropriate lump of metal being dropped onto OLE. And, it could
>> well be that knitting would need significant repair. I suspect the more
>> robust 3rd rail in this incident required a lot less rectification work.
>>
>
>Because the voltage is higher, the trip current for OLE is a lot lower, so
>you wouldn't get sustained arcing like this.

Any sane system uses voltage drop as the trip, not current draw. If the
voltage difference between the OLE and ground goes to 0 its been shorted.

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