Is it my receivers (either satellite or terrestrial) or is the right channel
of Talking Pictures TV mushy and distorted. I've found that if I change my
player to play the left channel out of both speakers, it is better than
normal left and right channels out of their respective speakers. It only
affects TPTV: all other channels, including those which sometimes play
programmes which have mono sound, do not have the problem.

Well you answered your own question, somewhere at the source end is
knackered on one channel!
Brian

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"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:sdbiad$qgp$1@dont-email.me...
> Is it my receivers (either satellite or terrestrial) or is the right
> channel of Talking Pictures TV mushy and distorted. I've found that if I
> change my player to play the left channel out of both speakers, it is
> better than normal left and right channels out of their respective
> speakers. It only affects TPTV: all other channels, including those which
> sometimes play programmes which have mono sound, do not have the problem.

On 22/07/2021 12:48 pm, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

> Well you answered your own question, somewhere at the source end is
> knackered on one channel!

The fact that it happens on satellite reception seems to indicate that
the problem lies a long way upstream, ie, with the play-out suite at
TPTV or immediately downstream of it.

If satellite reception were OK and Freeview not, that would presumably
indicate a regional problem (eg, at the transmitter).

Is it only on some output, as I did listen yesterday evening and its the
same on both, given that they mostly play old or knackered content most of
the time. I certainly heard nothing on commercials etc.
Brian

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"Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sdblu0$ieg$1@dont-email.me...
> Well you answered your own question, somewhere at the source end is
> knackered on one channel!
> Brian
>
> --
>
> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
> briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
> Blind user, so no pictures please
> Note this Signature is meaningless.!
> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
> news:sdbiad$qgp$1@dont-email.me...
>> Is it my receivers (either satellite or terrestrial) or is the right
>> channel of Talking Pictures TV mushy and distorted. I've found that if I
>> change my player to play the left channel out of both speakers, it is
>> better than normal left and right channels out of their respective
>> speakers. It only affects TPTV: all other channels, including those which
>> sometimes play programmes which have mono sound, do not have the problem.
>
>

"Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sdghnm$n37$1@dont-email.me...
> Is it only on some output, as I did listen yesterday evening and its the
> same on both, given that they mostly play old or knackered content most of
> the time. I certainly heard nothing on commercials etc.

It's not all content but it is a fair amount of it. I've noticed it on all
the episodes of Rumpole of the Bailey, and it's been fairly common on
various films. And it's always the right channel.

This is a separate issue to the generally appalling sound on some films from
the 1940s and 50s which sounds like crossover distortion or mistracking of a
lamp/sensor in relation to an optical film track - a raspy sound as
everyone's got a Daffy Duck lisp. And I've head that on many channels. not
just TPTV - as if it's present in the film copy: unless, of course,
different broadcasters share the same telecine copy of a film.

I'll have to upload a sample of an affected programme/film. I'll do an
excerpt from next Wednesday's Rumpole.

On 24/07/2021 11:19 am, NY wrote:
> "Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:sdghnm$n37$1@dont-email.me...
>> Is it only on some output, as I did listen yesterday evening and its
>> the same on both, given that they mostly play old or knackered content
>> most of the time. I certainly heard nothing on commercials etc.
>
> It's not all content but it is a fair amount of it. I've noticed it on
> all the episodes of Rumpole of the Bailey, and it's been fairly common
> on various films. And it's always the right channel.
>
> This is a separate issue to the generally appalling sound on some films
> from the 1940s and 50s which sounds like crossover distortion or
> mistracking of a lamp/sensor in relation to an optical film track - a
> raspy sound as everyone's got a Daffy Duck lisp. And I've head that on
> many channels. not just TPTV - as if it's present in the film copy:
> unless, of course, different broadcasters share the same telecine copy
> of a film.
>
>
> I'll have to upload a sample of an affected programme/film. I'll do an
> excerpt from next Wednesday's Rumpole.

Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?

OK the grotty film sound is often caused by the over zealous use of noise
gates. You hear it on some Avengers, when they play music, so and sounds
only seem to come through when the music is playing but in the bit in
between silence and sound it goes gritty and horrid. I'd rather hear the
scratched optical track.
What you are describing definitely osounds like faulty equipment either
when the program was dubbed or at broadcast time. Rumpole had good sound
originally, well it was mostly taped not filmed, so whether it had analogue
sound with a noise reduction system like DBX I don't know but by then I
think sound in vision was being done.

Back in the day though when mono tracks only existed on programmes if there
was a problem as it was many it should have been on both channels when it
was broadcast over any stereo medium surely?
Brian

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"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:sdgpf2$40h$1@dont-email.me...
> "Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:sdghnm$n37$1@dont-email.me...
>> Is it only on some output, as I did listen yesterday evening and its the
>> same on both, given that they mostly play old or knackered content most
>> of the time. I certainly heard nothing on commercials etc.
>
> It's not all content but it is a fair amount of it. I've noticed it on all
> the episodes of Rumpole of the Bailey, and it's been fairly common on
> various films. And it's always the right channel.
>
> This is a separate issue to the generally appalling sound on some films
> from the 1940s and 50s which sounds like crossover distortion or
> mistracking of a lamp/sensor in relation to an optical film track - a
> raspy sound as everyone's got a Daffy Duck lisp. And I've head that on
> many channels. not just TPTV - as if it's present in the film copy:
> unless, of course, different broadcasters share the same telecine copy of
> a film.
>
>
> I'll have to upload a sample of an affected programme/film. I'll do an
> excerpt from next Wednesday's Rumpole.

On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:
>
> Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?
>
No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

At some point though the conversion has to be performed along with any
massage needed to the picture or sound. Some of the early Stereo audio on
tv tends to be a bit wobbly, distorted or just naff sounding. One supposes
this really depends on how well it was made and how well it survived the
rigours of time.
Brian

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"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jndorsFhp12U1@mid.individual.net...
> On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:
>>
>> Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?
>>
> No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
> Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:tesci2$2fq1l$1@dont-email.me...
> At some point though the conversion has to be performed along with any
> massage needed to the picture or sound. Some of the early Stereo audio on
> tv tends to be a bit wobbly, distorted or just naff sounding. One supposes
> this really depends on how well it was made and how well it survived the
> rigours of time.

And also whether it was badly dubbed from one medium to another when an
older tape/file format became deprecated and the programme library copied it
to a newer format.

When ITV3 started showing repeats of Inspector Morse, the sound on some
episodes was appalling: the amount of background noise "pumped" up and down
when people started and stopped talking. It was very disconcerting to hear
virtually no sound, and then a character spoke and the background noise
(traffic, birds etc) increased slightly, decreasing to nothing when the
character stopped speaking. Apparently that was caused by ITV3 being
supplied with a version that had been copied from a tape that had been
recorded with one type of Dolby and then wrongly played back as if it were
another type of Dolby when the copy was made - so the error was burned into
ITV3's copy. I noticed that this seemed to have been fixed when I saw an
episode recently, as if they had obtained a new copy from the master in the
archive.

The classic problem with films from the 1940s/50s that are shown on Talking
Pictures TV is distorted "raspy" sound which I understand is an adjustment
problem with the position of the optical sensor in the telecine that is
reading the optical sound track on the film. It sounds like crossover
distortion.

On 02/09/2022 11:36, NY wrote:
>
>
> The classic problem with films from the 1940s/50s that are shown on
> Talking Pictures TV is distorted "raspy" sound which I understand is
> an adjustment problem with the position of the optical sensor in the
> telecine that is reading the optical sound track on the film. It
> sounds like crossover distortion.

Don't forget TPTV is run on a tiny budget, and I gather it's a father
and his daughter running the admin from a garden shed (Yes, really !)
The last thing they can afford is a high grade Telecine transcription
service in Soho. Just be grateful the channel exists at all !

On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:
>>
>> Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?
>>
> No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
> Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

Thanks.

As far back as the early 1990s?

On 02/09/2022 15:27, JNugent wrote:
> On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:
>>>
>>> Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?
>>>
>> No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
>> Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.
>
> Thanks.
>
> As far back as the early 1990s?
>
Yes. C4 have never transmitted live from Telecine, from their outset
(Nov 82) they transferred all film material to C Format 1 inch VT for Tx.

BBC and ITV wound down live TK for network films by the end of the 80s.
I think non peak time was still off TK for a while, perhaps a little
into the 90s for minor off peak stuff .

All the ITV companies abandoned playing ads directly from TK the early 80s

On 02/09/2022 03:45 pm, Mark Carver wrote:

> On 02/09/2022 15:27, JNugent wrote:
>> On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?
>>>>
>>> No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
>>> Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> As far back as the early 1990s?
>>
> Yes. C4 have never transmitted live from Telecine, from their outset
> (Nov 82) they transferred all film material to C Format 1 inch VT for Tx.
>
> BBC and ITV wound down live TK for network films by the end of the 80s.
> I think non peak time was still off TK for a while, perhaps a little
> into the 90s for minor off peak stuff .
>
> All the ITV companies abandoned playing ads directly from TK the early 80s

Ah... for some reason, I'd forgotten about VT. It never occurred to me
that films would be transferred to that.

And I was even treated (1990) to a tour of the UKTV playout facilities
at Television Centre. All mechanical grabs of cassettes (looking a
little bit like a machine at a funfair) and MiniDisc for the
voice-overs. My host (a senior member of Network staff) told me that day
that a video-recorder that used a "server" rather than tape was about to
be commercially released.

On 02/09/2022 16:51, JNugent wrote:
> On 02/09/2022 03:45 pm, Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> On 02/09/2022 15:27, JNugent wrote:
>>> On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>> On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?
>>>>>
>>>> No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
>>>> Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> As far back as the early 1990s?
>>>
>> Yes. C4 have never transmitted live from Telecine, from their outset
>> (Nov 82) they transferred all film material to C Format 1 inch VT for
>> Tx.
>>
>> BBC and ITV wound down live TK for network films by the end of the
>> 80s. I think non peak time was still off TK for a while, perhaps a
>> little into the 90s for minor off peak stuff .
>>
>> All the ITV companies abandoned playing ads directly from TK the
>> early 80s
>
> Ah... for some reason, I'd forgotten about VT. It never occurred to me
> that films would be transferred to that.
>
> And I was even treated (1990) to a tour of the UKTV playout facilities
> at Television Centre. All mechanical grabs of cassettes (looking a
> little bit like a machine at a funfair)
Sony Flexicart most likely

https://www.kitplus.com/images/advertisements/big/sony_bfc-1_170672.jpg

> and MiniDisc for the voice-overs. My host (a senior member of Network
> staff) told me that day that a video-recorder that used a "server"
> rather than tape was about to be commercially released.

Tektronix Profile most likely

https://www.vector3.tv/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/PDR-100-1.png

"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:jnei7fFlnhpU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:
>>>
>>> Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?
>>>
>> No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
>> Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.
>
> Thanks.
>
> As far back as the early 1990s?

Was 16 mm reversal film for news reports one of the last things to be
telecined live? When was news film replaced by ENG? I know ENG started in
the late 1970s or early 1980s, but it was fairly rare to begin with: it made
a change to see a few news reports that were free of enormous fuzzy grain
due to Ektachrome 160 being push-processed by 2 (or more!) stops. Mind you,
one camera flash into the lens of an early ENG camera and you had to endure
several seconds of purple or green after-image ;-)

The Avengers uses a noise Gate to attempt to cut down on film noise with the
effect that you hear the film noise on even quiet sounds. It would have
sounded better to have left the noise as constant and let the sound be
normal.
Getting back to Talking Pictures, if that is only happening on some
content, then its obviously either the content, a set up problem or a fault.
If its on all output then it has to be in their general gear that feeds out
to the network. Having said that, I'm so used to a lot of their output being
vintage and grotty sounding maybe I have not noticed it.
Brian

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"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:tesmba$2gnsi$1@dont-email.me...
> "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:tesci2$2fq1l$1@dont-email.me...
>> At some point though the conversion has to be performed along with any
>> massage needed to the picture or sound. Some of the early Stereo audio
>> on tv tends to be a bit wobbly, distorted or just naff sounding. One
>> supposes this really depends on how well it was made and how well it
>> survived the rigours of time.
>
> And also whether it was badly dubbed from one medium to another when an
> older tape/file format became deprecated and the programme library copied
> it to a newer format.
>
> When ITV3 started showing repeats of Inspector Morse, the sound on some
> episodes was appalling: the amount of background noise "pumped" up and
> down when people started and stopped talking. It was very disconcerting to
> hear virtually no sound, and then a character spoke and the background
> noise (traffic, birds etc) increased slightly, decreasing to nothing when
> the character stopped speaking. Apparently that was caused by ITV3 being
> supplied with a version that had been copied from a tape that had been
> recorded with one type of Dolby and then wrongly played back as if it were
> another type of Dolby when the copy was made - so the error was burned
> into ITV3's copy. I noticed that this seemed to have been fixed when I saw
> an episode recently, as if they had obtained a new copy from the master in
> the archive.
>
> The classic problem with films from the 1940s/50s that are shown on
> Talking Pictures TV is distorted "raspy" sound which I understand is an
> adjustment problem with the position of the optical sensor in the telecine
> that is reading the optical sound track on the film. It sounds like
> crossover distortion.

I don't think that is the issue. Most of their work is research into who has
rights, can we get them and how much useful content is already transcribed.
To some extent they are at the mercy of their suppliers. When Bob Monkhouse
was alive he made a programme about the search for decent versions of films
etc. A lot of so called preserved vintage film has the levels of the video
all over the place due to what I call blooping, where detail in a picture
is lost as peak white is reached far before it should be.
There was a name for that effect, but one needs to avoid these like the
plague apparently. A lot of Laurel and Hardy stuff was like that.
Now I cannot see, I don't know if that is still the case.
Brian

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"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jneeh0Fl5giU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 02/09/2022 11:36, NY wrote:
>>
>>
>> The classic problem with films from the 1940s/50s that are shown on
>> Talking Pictures TV is distorted "raspy" sound which I understand is an
>> adjustment problem with the position of the optical sensor in the
>> telecine that is reading the optical sound track on the film. It sounds
>> like crossover distortion.
>
> Don't forget TPTV is run on a tiny budget, and I gather it's a father and
> his daughter running the admin from a garden shed (Yes, really !) The last
> thing they can afford is a high grade Telecine transcription service in
> Soho. Just be grateful the channel exists at all !
>

Don't know but certainly its was not unknown for films to break as they did
in the cinema on tv too. I imagine using a hight grade video format at the
time allowed one to fix such things in the edit stage.
Brian

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"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:jnei7fFlnhpU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:
>>>
>>> Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?
>>>
>> No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
>> Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.
>
> Thanks.
>
> As far back as the early 1990s?
>

I remember many moons ago, that I went to a fledgling cable tv distribution
centre, and they had banks of Sony Umatic cassette players for things like
locally sourced stuff. Even then a lot of it was manually loaded but
automated remotely. We thought that was clever back then, now its a black
art.
Brian

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"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jnerhsFn61uU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 02/09/2022 16:51, JNugent wrote:
>> On 02/09/2022 03:45 pm, Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/09/2022 15:27, JNugent wrote:
>>>> On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>>> On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?
>>>>>>
>>>>> No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
>>>>> Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> As far back as the early 1990s?
>>>>
>>> Yes. C4 have never transmitted live from Telecine, from their outset
>>> (Nov 82) they transferred all film material to C Format 1 inch VT for
>>> Tx.
>>>
>>> BBC and ITV wound down live TK for network films by the end of the 80s.
>>> I think non peak time was still off TK for a while, perhaps a little
>>> into the 90s for minor off peak stuff .
>>>
>>> All the ITV companies abandoned playing ads directly from TK the early
>>> 80s
>>
>> Ah... for some reason, I'd forgotten about VT. It never occurred to me
>> that films would be transferred to that.
>>
>> And I was even treated (1990) to a tour of the UKTV playout facilities at
>> Television Centre. All mechanical grabs of cassettes (looking a little
>> bit like a machine at a funfair)
> Sony Flexicart most likely
>
> https://www.kitplus.com/images/advertisements/big/sony_bfc-1_170672.jpg
>
>> and MiniDisc for the voice-overs. My host (a senior member of Network
>> staff) told me that day that a video-recorder that used a "server" rather
>> than tape was about to be commercially released.
>
> Tektronix Profile most likely
>
> https://www.vector3.tv/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/PDR-100-1.png
>
>
>

On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 16:51:37 +0100, JNugent <jennings&co@fastmail.fm>
wrote:

>> Yes. C4 have never transmitted live from Telecine, from their outset
>> (Nov 82) they transferred all film material to C Format 1 inch VT for Tx.
>>
>> BBC and ITV wound down live TK for network films by the end of the 80s.
>> I think non peak time was still off TK for a while, perhaps a little
>> into the 90s for minor off peak stuff .
>>
>> All the ITV companies abandoned playing ads directly from TK the early 80s
>
>Ah... for some reason, I'd forgotten about VT. It never occurred to me
>that films would be transferred to that.

Despite being more complicated, videotape has always been more
reliable than telecine. It rarely breaks in the middle of a
transmission, whereas film can sometimes do this, particularly if it
contains any physical splices.

It also gives the opportunity to preassemble the separate reels of a
movie onto a single spool of tape which won't need any attention for
the full running time of the movie.

Then there is the fact that colour matching between shots in a typical
Hollywood movie is usually pretty terrible without electronic
correction, and if necessary this can be done shot by shot by means of
electronic edits when copying the movie to tape.

Rod.