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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: "Silk Road"?

SubjectAuthor
* "Silk Road"?Roland Perry
+* "Silk Road"?Theo
|+- "Silk Road"?Roland Perry
|+* "Silk Road"?Arthur Figgis
||+* "Silk Road"?Mike Humphrey
|||`* "Silk Road"?Roland Perry
||| `* "Silk Road"?Theo
|||  +- "Silk Road"?Roland Perry
|||  +- "Silk Road"?Marc Van Dyck
|||  +- "Silk Road"?Arthur Figgis
|||  `- "Silk Road"?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
||`- "Silk Road"?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
|`- "Silk Road"?Robin Stevens
`* "Silk Road"?Nobody
 `* "Silk Road"?Graham Harrison
  +* "Silk Road"?Nobody
  |`* "Silk Road"?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
  | +* "Silk Road"?Nobody
  | |`- "Silk Road"?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
  | `* "Silk Road"?Arthur Figgis
  |  `- "Silk Road"?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
  +* "Silk Road"?John Levine
  |`* "Silk Road"?Arthur Figgis
  | `* "Silk Road"?John Levine
  |  `- "Silk Road"?Arthur Figgis
  `* "Silk Road"?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
   `- "Silk Road"?Nobody

Pages:12
Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:33:52 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:33 UTC

In message <6p962hts9sajc1nqfsndofgpc0a4adn7lv@4ax.com>, at 09:03:57 on
Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>Are the trains from China still running through to Europe and the UK?
>
>(Yes, I know, transloading etc. but you get the idea, I hope).

This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
how long"):

<https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight

--
Roland Perry

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: 05 Mar 2022 12:32:04 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 12:32 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
> how long"):
>
> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
> in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight

What's the status with alternative routes? Looks like the southerly route
goes via Iran - is that an option? The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is
there any trans-Caspian train ferry traffic in operation?

Theo

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 14:42:57 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 14:42 UTC

In message <q3k*rynIy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:32:04 on Sat,
5 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>> how long"):
>>
>> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>> in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight
>
>What's the status with alternative routes? Looks like the southerly route
>goes via Iran - is that an option? The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is
>there any trans-Caspian train ferry traffic in operation?

I have no specific insight into this, apart from noting that the route
through the western Russian area is operated by a consortium of Russians
and Russian satellites, and how else would the go north of the Baltic if
not via Ukraine (which would seem a bit dodgy this week).
--
Roland Perry

Re: "Silk Road"?

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Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Newsgroups: uk.railway
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 by: Arthur Figgis - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 18:23 UTC

On 05/03/2022 12:32, Theo wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>> how long"):
>>
>> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>> in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight
>
> What's the status with alternative routes? Looks like the southerly route
> goes via Iran - is that an option?

Not if you want to do business with any vaguely US entities. It was
reported that this has stopped people actually using the Turkey - Iran -
Pakistan route which gets announced every so often.

> The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is
> there any trans-Caspian train ferry traffic in operation?

Yes. IIRC they got a new ship not all that long ago. Though you then
need to get round the Black Sea, eg by ship to a port in Ukraine. Oh...

--
Arthur Figgis

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: rej...@cynic.org.uk (Robin Stevens)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 20:59:08 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Robin Stevens - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 20:59 UTC

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in uk.railway:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> > This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
> > how long"):
> >
> > <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
> > in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight

> What's the status with alternative routes? Looks like the southerly route
> goes via Iran - is that an option? The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is
> there any trans-Caspian train ferry traffic in operation?

I imagine you'd need quite a big train ferry to accommodate a whole freight
train, and there are lots of them. 2020 overland traffic was over 10,000
TEUs per week[1], or 64km of containers nose-to-tail. I'm guessing the
necessary train ferry capacity hasn't been sitting around idle, and there
are certain challenges to bringing them in from the high seas. Besides, if
the cargo is containerised, why bother with a train ferry anyway?

[1] Twenty-foot equivalent unit; stats from https://www.railfreight.com/beltandroad/2021/08/16/steady-growth-on-the-new-silk-road-while-prices-remain-stable/

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: mai...@michaelhumphrey.me.uk (Mike Humphrey)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:27:45 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mike Humphrey - Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:27 UTC

On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 18:23:00 +0000, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 05/03/2022 12:32, Theo wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is there any trans-Caspian train
>> ferry traffic in operation?
>
> Yes. IIRC they got a new ship not all that long ago. Though you then
> need to get round the Black Sea, eg by ship to a port in Ukraine. Oh...

Surely you'd go via Turkey? I'm not sure if the Bosphorus tunnel
currently carries freight, but it's been discussed.
If you're going to cross the Black Sea by ship, you could land in Turkey,
Bulgaria or Romania - though switching from train to ship and back twice
would probably lose most of the speed advantage over the ocean journey.

Mike

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 10:53:08 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 6 Mar 2022 10:53 UTC

In message <t01uqh$mld$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:27:45 on Sun, 6 Mar 2022,
Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 18:23:00 +0000, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>> On 05/03/2022 12:32, Theo wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is there any trans-Caspian train
>>> ferry traffic in operation?
>>
>> Yes. IIRC they got a new ship not all that long ago. Though you then
>> need to get round the Black Sea, eg by ship to a port in Ukraine. Oh...
>
>Surely you'd go via Turkey?

How do you get *to* Turkey (from China)?

>I'm not sure if the Bosphorus tunnel
>currently carries freight, but it's been discussed.
>If you're going to cross the Black Sea by ship, you could land in Turkey,
>Bulgaria or Romania - though switching from train to ship and back twice
>would probably lose most of the speed advantage over the ocean journey.
>
>Mike

--
Roland Perry

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: 06 Mar 2022 11:23:25 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Theo - Sun, 6 Mar 2022 11:23 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t01uqh$mld$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:27:45 on Sun, 6 Mar 2022,
> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
> >On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 18:23:00 +0000, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> >> On 05/03/2022 12:32, Theo wrote:
> >>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is there any trans-Caspian train
> >>> ferry traffic in operation?
> >>
> >> Yes. IIRC they got a new ship not all that long ago. Though you then
> >> need to get round the Black Sea, eg by ship to a port in Ukraine. Oh...
> >
> >Surely you'd go via Turkey?
>
> How do you get *to* Turkey (from China)?

According to:
https://www.openrailwaymap.org/

Urumqi (cn) - Almaty (kz) - Tashkent (uz) - Ashgabat (tm) - Turkmenbashy
(tm) - [Caspian sea ferry] - Baku (az) - Yerevan (am) - Kers (tr) - Erzurum
(tr) - Ankara (tr) - Istanbul (tr) - [Marmaray tunnel/train ferry] - Edirne
(tr) - Plovdiv (bg)

But I have no idea if the lines are actually in operational condition or
not.

Theo

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 11:32:54 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 6 Mar 2022 11:32 UTC

In message <r3k*RzsIy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:23:25 on Sun,
6 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t01uqh$mld$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:27:45 on Sun, 6 Mar 2022,
>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>> >On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 18:23:00 +0000, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>> >> On 05/03/2022 12:32, Theo wrote:
>> >>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>> The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is there any trans-Caspian train
>> >>> ferry traffic in operation?
>> >>
>> >> Yes. IIRC they got a new ship not all that long ago. Though you then
>> >> need to get round the Black Sea, eg by ship to a port in Ukraine. Oh...
>> >
>> >Surely you'd go via Turkey?
>>
>> How do you get *to* Turkey (from China)?
>
>According to:
>https://www.openrailwaymap.org/
>
>Urumqi (cn) - Almaty (kz) - Tashkent (uz) - Ashgabat (tm) - Turkmenbashy
>(tm) - [Caspian sea ferry] - Baku (az) - Yerevan (am) - Kers (tr) - Erzurum
>(tr) - Ankara (tr) - Istanbul (tr) - [Marmaray tunnel/train ferry] - Edirne
>(tr) - Plovdiv (bg)
>
>But I have no idea if the lines are actually in operational condition or
>not.

I wasn't reckoning on a ferry across the Caspian Sea.
--
Roland Perry

Re: "Silk Road"?

<mn.3c317e6380254a88.104627@invalid.skynet.be>

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From: marc.gr....@invalid.skynet.be (Marc Van Dyck)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 17:53:19 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Marc Van Dyck - Mon, 7 Mar 2022 16:53 UTC

Theo was thinking very hard :
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t01uqh$mld$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:27:45 on Sun, 6 Mar 2022,
>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 18:23:00 +0000, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>>>> On 05/03/2022 12:32, Theo wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is there any trans-Caspian train
>>>>> ferry traffic in operation?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. IIRC they got a new ship not all that long ago. Though you then
>>>> need to get round the Black Sea, eg by ship to a port in Ukraine. Oh...
>>>
>>> Surely you'd go via Turkey?
>>
>> How do you get *to* Turkey (from China)?
>
> According to:
> https://www.openrailwaymap.org/
>
> Urumqi (cn) - Almaty (kz) - Tashkent (uz) - Ashgabat (tm) - Turkmenbashy
> (tm) - [Caspian sea ferry] - Baku (az) - Yerevan (am) - Kers (tr) - Erzurum
> (tr) - Ankara (tr) - Istanbul (tr) - [Marmaray tunnel/train ferry] - Edirne
> (tr) - Plovdiv (bg)
>
> But I have no idea if the lines are actually in operational condition or
> not.
>
> Theo

The line from Kars into Armenia is not operational anymore. Track has
been lifted between the last turkish station and the Armenian border.

But there is now this new line "BTK" Baku-Tbilissi-Kars line available.
It is now operational for freight, but not yet for passengers. There is
an article on Wikipedia about this line.

--
Marc Van Dyck

Re: "Silk Road"?

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Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Newsgroups: uk.railway
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<fQciSxZA6yIiFAgU@perry.uk> <q3k*rynIy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
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 by: Arthur Figgis - Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:12 UTC

On 06/03/2022 16:49, Nobody wrote:
> On 06 Mar 2022 11:23:25 +0000 (GMT), Theo
> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t01uqh$mld$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:27:45 on Sun, 6 Mar 2022,
>>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 18:23:00 +0000, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>>>>> On 05/03/2022 12:32, Theo wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is there any trans-Caspian train
>>>>>> ferry traffic in operation?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. IIRC they got a new ship not all that long ago. Though you then
>>>>> need to get round the Black Sea, eg by ship to a port in Ukraine. Oh...
>>>>
>>>> Surely you'd go via Turkey?
>>>
>>> How do you get *to* Turkey (from China)?
>>
>> According to:
>> https://www.openrailwaymap.org/
>>
>> Urumqi (cn) - Almaty (kz) - Tashkent (uz) - Ashgabat (tm) - Turkmenbashy
>> (tm) - [Caspian sea ferry] - Baku (az) - Yerevan (am) - Kers (tr) - Erzurum
>> (tr) - Ankara (tr) - Istanbul (tr) - [Marmaray tunnel/train ferry] - Edirne
>> (tr) - Plovdiv (bg)
>
> I wouldn't have thought that Johnny Turk would be too amenable to
> business through Armenia (Yerevan), and vice versa.

But who today remembers the Armenians?

--
Arthur Figgis

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: hounsl...@yahoo.co.uk (hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 12:53:24 +0000
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: hounslow3@yahoo.co.u - Wed, 9 Mar 2022 12:53 UTC

On 05/03/2022 18:23, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 05/03/2022 12:32, Theo wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>>> how long"):
>>>
>>>   <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>>> in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight
>>
>> What's the status with alternative routes?  Looks like the southerly
>> route
>> goes via Iran - is that an option?
>
> Not if you want to do business with any vaguely US entities. It was
> reported that this has stopped people actually using the Turkey - Iran -
> Pakistan route which gets announced every so often.
>
>> The alternative would be Azerbaijan - is
>> there any trans-Caspian train ferry traffic in operation?
>
> Yes. IIRC they got a new ship not all that long ago. Though you then
> need to get round the Black Sea, eg by ship to a port in Ukraine. Oh...
>

You could also go from Poti or Batumi to one of the western Black Sea
ports, though I understand that everybody is steering well clear of that
body of water.

Re: "Silk Road"?

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 13:18:00 +0000
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 by: hounslow3@yahoo.co.u - Wed, 9 Mar 2022 13:18 UTC

Kazakhstan working on agreements to send cargo along
Aktau/Kuryk-Baku-Tbilisi-Kars route

https://www.azernews.az/business/190406.html

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: joc...@soccer.com (Nobody)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:51:15 -0700
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 by: Nobody - Thu, 12 May 2022 20:51 UTC

On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:33:52 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <6p962hts9sajc1nqfsndofgpc0a4adn7lv@4ax.com>, at 09:03:57 on
>Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>Are the trains from China still running through to Europe and the UK?
>>
>>(Yes, I know, transloading etc. but you get the idea, I hope).
>
>This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>how long"):
>
> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight

This popped up today/12 May, though it isn't informative of how the
Black Sea crossing will be handled:

<https://scandasia.com/finland-logistics-company-organizes-container-train-from-china-to-central-europe/>

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: edward.h...@btinternet.com (Graham Harrison)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
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 by: Graham Harrison - Thu, 12 May 2022 21:35 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:51:15 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:33:52 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <6p962hts9sajc1nqfsndofgpc0a4adn7lv@4ax.com>, at 09:03:57 on
>>Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>>Are the trains from China still running through to Europe and the UK?
>>>
>>>(Yes, I know, transloading etc. but you get the idea, I hope).
>>
>>This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>>how long"):
>>
>> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>>in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight
>
>This popped up today/12 May, though it isn't informative of how the
>Black Sea crossing will be handled:
>
><https://scandasia.com/finland-logistics-company-organizes-container-train-from-china-to-central-europe/>

This appears in the linked article "The train is routed from China via
Kazakhstan, the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan, Georgia and across the Black
Sea to Romania" and then "and that it would follow the Trans-Caspian
route, combining rail and sea transport " I'm going to suggest that
they will tranship train to ship in Georgia and reverse the process in
Romania.

Thank you for finding this.

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: joc...@soccer.com (Nobody)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 15:00:51 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Nobody - Thu, 12 May 2022 22:00 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 22:35:00 +0100, Graham Harrison
<edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:51:15 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:33:52 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <6p962hts9sajc1nqfsndofgpc0a4adn7lv@4ax.com>, at 09:03:57 on
>>>Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>>Are the trains from China still running through to Europe and the UK?
>>>>
>>>>(Yes, I know, transloading etc. but you get the idea, I hope).
>>>
>>>This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>>>how long"):
>>>
>>> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>>>in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight
>>
>>This popped up today/12 May, though it isn't informative of how the
>>Black Sea crossing will be handled:
>>
>><https://scandasia.com/finland-logistics-company-organizes-container-train-from-china-to-central-europe/>
>
>This appears in the linked article "The train is routed from China via
>Kazakhstan, the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan, Georgia and across the Black
>Sea to Romania" and then "and that it would follow the Trans-Caspian
>route, combining rail and sea transport " I'm going to suggest that
>they will tranship train to ship in Georgia and reverse the process in
>Romania.

Agreed, as that takes care of the change-of-gauge without changing the
gauge!

Re: "Silk Road"?

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From: joh...@taugh.com (John Levine)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 22:11:19 -0000 (UTC)
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In-Reply-To: <6p962hts9sajc1nqfsndofgpc0a4adn7lv@4ax.com> <fQciSxZA6yIiFAgU@perry.uk> <bnsq7hdv6qldqv5525qioi3q037il9gg5m@4ax.com> <l5vq7hlaq5o3csptc7a3rh93lkvquncd26@4ax.com>
Cleverness: some
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
Originator: johnl@iecc.com (John Levine)
 by: John Levine - Thu, 12 May 2022 22:11 UTC

According to Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>:
>><https://scandasia.com/finland-logistics-company-organizes-container-train-from-china-to-central-europe/>
>
>This appears in the linked article "The train is routed from China via
>Kazakhstan, the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan, Georgia and across the Black
>Sea to Romania" and then "and that it would follow the Trans-Caspian
>route, combining rail and sea transport " I'm going to suggest that
>they will tranship train to ship in Georgia and reverse the process in
>Romania.

Transship, or use car floats? That's an entirely reasonable route for
a car float. The trip across the Black Sea is shorter than the one
from Alaska to the contiguous U.S.

They'd still have to change the wheels from Russian to standard gaugue, but don't
they have to do that anyway?

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Re: "Silk Road"?

<t5k697$1i38$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: hounsl...@yahoo.co.uk (hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 00:46:47 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: hounslow3@yahoo.co.u - Thu, 12 May 2022 23:46 UTC

On 12/05/2022 22:35, Graham Harrison wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:51:15 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:33:52 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <6p962hts9sajc1nqfsndofgpc0a4adn7lv@4ax.com>, at 09:03:57 on
>>> Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>>> Are the trains from China still running through to Europe and the UK?
>>>>
>>>> (Yes, I know, transloading etc. but you get the idea, I hope).
>>>
>>> This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>>> how long"):
>>>
>>> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>>> in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight
>>
>> This popped up today/12 May, though it isn't informative of how the
>> Black Sea crossing will be handled:
>>
>> <https://scandasia.com/finland-logistics-company-organizes-container-train-from-china-to-central-europe/>
>
> This appears in the linked article "The train is routed from China via
> Kazakhstan, the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan, Georgia and across the Black
> Sea to Romania" and then "and that it would follow the Trans-Caspian
> route, combining rail and sea transport " I'm going to suggest that
> they will tranship train to ship in Georgia and reverse the process in
> Romania.
>
> Thank you for finding this.

Or, instead of going through the Black Sea, they could continue through
Georgia into Turkey on the Baku-Tbilisi-Kars line. That would also
require one transloading from Russian- to Standard-gauge railcars as
there is such a facility on the Turkish side.

I wonder when that line is due to open for passenger service, seeing
that ADY acquired with variable-gauge axles in about 2019.

Re: "Silk Road"?

<t5k6ft$1kbm$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29394&group=uk.railway#29394

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From: hounsl...@yahoo.co.uk (hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 00:50:21 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: hounslow3@yahoo.co.u - Thu, 12 May 2022 23:50 UTC

On 12/05/2022 23:00, Nobody wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 22:35:00 +0100, Graham Harrison
> <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:51:15 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:33:52 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <6p962hts9sajc1nqfsndofgpc0a4adn7lv@4ax.com>, at 09:03:57 on
>>>> Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> Are the trains from China still running through to Europe and the UK?
>>>>>
>>>>> (Yes, I know, transloading etc. but you get the idea, I hope).
>>>>
>>>> This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>>>> how long"):
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>>>> in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight
>>>
>>> This popped up today/12 May, though it isn't informative of how the
>>> Black Sea crossing will be handled:
>>>
>>> <https://scandasia.com/finland-logistics-company-organizes-container-train-from-china-to-central-europe/>
>>
>> This appears in the linked article "The train is routed from China via
>> Kazakhstan, the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan, Georgia and across the Black
>> Sea to Romania" and then "and that it would follow the Trans-Caspian
>> route, combining rail and sea transport " I'm going to suggest that
>> they will tranship train to ship in Georgia and reverse the process in
>> Romania.
>
> Agreed, as that takes care of the change-of-gauge without changing the
> gauge!

China is 1435mm, whereas Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan are 1520mm. This
assumes that freight shipments would go via Turkmenistan.

Re: "Silk Road"?

<ei7r7hd3neiuhha2iodor6jbs11bll5nfb@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29395&group=uk.railway#29395

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From: joc...@soccer.com (Nobody)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 17:02:44 -0700
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 by: Nobody - Fri, 13 May 2022 00:02 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 00:46:47 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
<hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 12/05/2022 22:35, Graham Harrison wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:51:15 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:33:52 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <6p962hts9sajc1nqfsndofgpc0a4adn7lv@4ax.com>, at 09:03:57 on
>>>> Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> Are the trains from China still running through to Europe and the UK?
>>>>>
>>>>> (Yes, I know, transloading etc. but you get the idea, I hope).
>>>>
>>>> This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>>>> how long"):
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>>>> in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight
>>>
>>> This popped up today/12 May, though it isn't informative of how the
>>> Black Sea crossing will be handled:
>>>
>>> <https://scandasia.com/finland-logistics-company-organizes-container-train-from-china-to-central-europe/>
>>
>> This appears in the linked article "The train is routed from China via
>> Kazakhstan, the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan, Georgia and across the Black
>> Sea to Romania" and then "and that it would follow the Trans-Caspian
>> route, combining rail and sea transport " I'm going to suggest that
>> they will tranship train to ship in Georgia and reverse the process in
>> Romania.
>>
>> Thank you for finding this.
>
>Or, instead of going through the Black Sea, they could continue through
>Georgia into Turkey on the Baku-Tbilisi-Kars line. That would also
>require one transloading from Russian- to Standard-gauge railcars as
>there is such a facility on the Turkish side.
>
>I wonder when that line is due to open for passenger service, seeing
>that ADY acquired with variable-gauge axles in about 2019.

Apparently, the passenger equipment exists (read well down):

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku%E2%80%93Tbilisi%E2%80%93Kars_railway>

But the "Man In Seat 61" can't confirm anything after our two-plus
years dealing with the Wu Hu Flu:

"NEW DIRECT ANKARA-KARS-TBILISI-BAKU TRAIN: A new railway has been
built between Kars and Tbilisi, formally inaugurated way back in
October 2017 . A new direct sleeper train should have started running
once a week between Ankara, Tbilisi & Baku some time in 2020, but its
launch has been postponed with no start date yet known. The train
will have 4-berth economy sleepers, 4-berth comfort sleepers, 1 & 2
bed sleepers with en suite toilet & shower, and a restaurant car.
These cars have been built by Stadler in Switzerland and are now in
Azerbaijan on test. Fares & timetable will be posted here when known.
Please don't email me to ask, there's no sign of the train starting
yet in 2021, as soon as I know anything I'll post it here."

Re: "Silk Road"?

<428r7hhrdu5ijlohp1q3od6d5763mg66cn@4ax.com>

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From: joc...@soccer.com (Nobody)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 17:18:33 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Nobody - Fri, 13 May 2022 00:18 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 00:50:21 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
<hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 12/05/2022 23:00, Nobody wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 22:35:00 +0100, Graham Harrison
>> <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:51:15 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:33:52 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <6p962hts9sajc1nqfsndofgpc0a4adn7lv@4ax.com>, at 09:03:57 on
>>>>> Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> Are the trains from China still running through to Europe and the UK?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Yes, I know, transloading etc. but you get the idea, I hope).
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>>>>> how long"):
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>>>>> in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight
>>>>
>>>> This popped up today/12 May, though it isn't informative of how the
>>>> Black Sea crossing will be handled:
>>>>
>>>> <https://scandasia.com/finland-logistics-company-organizes-container-train-from-china-to-central-europe/>
>>>
>>> This appears in the linked article "The train is routed from China via
>>> Kazakhstan, the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan, Georgia and across the Black
>>> Sea to Romania" and then "and that it would follow the Trans-Caspian
>>> route, combining rail and sea transport " I'm going to suggest that
>>> they will tranship train to ship in Georgia and reverse the process in
>>> Romania.
>>
>> Agreed, as that takes care of the change-of-gauge without changing the
>> gauge!
>
>China is 1435mm, whereas Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan are 1520mm. This
>assumes that freight shipments would go via Turkmenistan.

No, Graham and I are referring to the Black Sea crossing, vaguely
mentioned in the Scandasia article; transshipment means taking the
containers 'off' railcars at (Batumi?) and placing them back 'on' in
(Constanţa). We know there is a change to get out of the Forbidden
Kingdom into ex-Soviet real estate.

Yes, a rail route now exists down to Kars in Turkey, but as you know
would require a gauge-change.

Re: "Silk Road"?

<t5ll5n$36e$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29414&group=uk.railway#29414

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From: hounsl...@yahoo.co.uk (hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 14:07:03 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: hounslow3@yahoo.co.u - Fri, 13 May 2022 13:07 UTC

On 13/05/2022 01:18, Nobody wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 00:50:21 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 12/05/2022 23:00, Nobody wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 22:35:00 +0100, Graham Harrison
>>> <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:51:15 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:33:52 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <6p962hts9sajc1nqfsndofgpc0a4adn7lv@4ax.com>, at 09:03:57 on
>>>>>> Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> Are the trains from China still running through to Europe and the UK?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Yes, I know, transloading etc. but you get the idea, I hope).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is the most recent report I can find (short version - "for now, but
>>>>>> how long"):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.euromoney.com/article/29sc7mbhcs98zytzn14hs/opinion/war-
>>>>>> in-ukraine-threatens-bri-disrupts-china-europe-rail-freight
>>>>>
>>>>> This popped up today/12 May, though it isn't informative of how the
>>>>> Black Sea crossing will be handled:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://scandasia.com/finland-logistics-company-organizes-container-train-from-china-to-central-europe/>
>>>>
>>>> This appears in the linked article "The train is routed from China via
>>>> Kazakhstan, the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan, Georgia and across the Black
>>>> Sea to Romania" and then "and that it would follow the Trans-Caspian
>>>> route, combining rail and sea transport " I'm going to suggest that
>>>> they will tranship train to ship in Georgia and reverse the process in
>>>> Romania.
>>>
>>> Agreed, as that takes care of the change-of-gauge without changing the
>>> gauge!
>>
>> China is 1435mm, whereas Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan are 1520mm. This
>> assumes that freight shipments would go via Turkmenistan.
>
> No, Graham and I are referring to the Black Sea crossing, vaguely
> mentioned in the Scandasia article; transshipment means taking the
> containers 'off' railcars

I know.

> at (Batumi?)

Poti is also an option.

> (Constanţa). We know there is a change to get out of the Forbidden
> Kingdom into ex-Soviet real estate.
>
> Yes, a rail route now exists down to Kars in Turkey, but as you know
> would require a gauge-change.

There is a transfer facility to standard-gauge railcars on the Turkish
side, IIRC.

Besides less transshipments, I would also imagine that the land-based
route might be safer as I have heard that the Black Sea is not really a
place where ships want to be at the moment.

Yes, I know that danger is closer to the northern shore, but I have
heard of cases where ships that were in no way involved in the conflict
have sustained damage.

Having said that, I'm sure that ships staying closer to the Turkish
coast are safer.

Re: "Silk Road"?

<O_mdnZLnZIqQCOP_nZ2dnUU7-QOdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

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 by: Arthur Figgis - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:27 UTC

On 13/05/2022 00:50, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> China is 1435mm, whereas Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan are 1520mm. This
> assumes that freight shipments would go via Turkmenistan.

Possibly easier to sail from Kazakhstan to Azerbaijan, as it's one less
border to deal with.

--
Arthur Figgis

Re: "Silk Road"?

<4tydnc6ddd2GC-P_nZ2dnUU7-TOdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

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Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
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 by: Arthur Figgis - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:32 UTC

On 12/05/2022 23:11, John Levine wrote:
> According to Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com>:
>>> <https://scandasia.com/finland-logistics-company-organizes-container-train-from-china-to-central-europe/>
>>
>> This appears in the linked article "The train is routed from China via
>> Kazakhstan, the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan, Georgia and across the Black
>> Sea to Romania" and then "and that it would follow the Trans-Caspian
>> route, combining rail and sea transport " I'm going to suggest that
>> they will tranship train to ship in Georgia and reverse the process in
>> Romania.
>
> Transship, or use car floats? That's an entirely reasonable route for
> a car float. The trip across the Black Sea is shorter than the one
> from Alaska to the contiguous U.S.
>
> They'd still have to change the wheels from Russian to standard gaugue, but don't
> they have to do that anyway?

Containers don't have wheels.

--
Arthur Figgis

Re: "Silk Road"?

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "Silk Road"?
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 18:55:26 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: John Levine - Fri, 13 May 2022 18:55 UTC

According to Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>:
>> Transship, or use car floats? That's an entirely reasonable route for
>> a car float. The trip across the Black Sea is shorter than the one
>> from Alaska to the contiguous U.S.
>>
>> They'd still have to change the wheels from Russian to standard gaugue, but don't
>> they have to do that anyway?
>
>Containers don't have wheels.

Sure, but is everything on the train in containers?

I've seen videos of swapping axles to do change of gauge
on goods trains and it's not obvious to me whether lifting
containers off one car and onto another is easier or harder
than leaving the container and switching the axles underneath.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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