<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>

Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.

"Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been going
too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of receiving
and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to retrieve
a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>

Murray Walker lived near here , joined in with a bit of fun a few years
back before he started to get frail.
We don’t need too much to amuse us around these parts.

<https://youtu.be/uXChwwMSDag>

GH

On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>
> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>
>   "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been going
>    too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of receiving
>    and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to retrieve
>    a bag which had fallen on to the floor".

Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused Southall?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>

>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.

>>   "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>going
>>    too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of receiving
>>    and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to retrieve
>>    a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>
>Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused Southall?

A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>
>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>
>>   "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been going
>>    too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of receiving
>>    and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to retrieve
>>    a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>
> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused Southall?
>

That was the official version, yes.

Also: in combination with other factors, non-functional AWS and ATP.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>
>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>
>>>   "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>> going
>>>    too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of receiving
>>>    and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to retrieve
>>>    a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>
>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused Southall?
>
> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>

That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right now. I
do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being mentioned in
*a* report sometime, though.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>
>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>
>>>>   "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>> going
>>>>    too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of receiving
>>>>    and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to retrieve
>>>>    a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>
>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused Southall?
>>
>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>
>
> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right now. I
> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being mentioned in
> *a* report sometime, though.
>

IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
Paddington.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>
>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>
>>>>>   "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>> going
>>>>>    too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of receiving
>>>>>    and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to retrieve
>>>>>    a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>
>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused Southall?
>>>
>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>
>>
>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right now. I
>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being mentioned in
>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>
>
> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
> Paddington.
>

Yes, that was my recollection.

In message <t0chds$u2t$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:36 on Thu, 10 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>>
>>>>>>   "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>>> going
>>>>>>    too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of receiving
>>>>>>    and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to retrieve
>>>>>>    a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>>
>>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused Southall?
>>>>
>>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>
>>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right now. I
>>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being mentioned in
>>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>
>> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
>> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
>> Paddington.
>
>Yes, that was my recollection.

From "The Guardian" 21 Sept 1999:

The driver of the 125mph high speed train involved in the
Southall rail crash was seen with his feet on the dashboard in
the train's cab twice within an hour of the accident, the
opening of the official inquiry was told yesterday.

Larry Harrison was seen with both feet on the dashboard by
passengers waiting at Bristol Parkway station and with one foot
up at Swindon.

He may also have been using a bag instead of his feet to keep
the driver's device known as the dead man's handle pressed down,
the inquiry heard. The handle stops the train automatically if
allowed to rise.

Ian Burnett, QC, counsel to the inquiry, said that a number of
passengers had reported seeing Mr Harrison with his feet up, and
that the driver had been very anxious to retrieve his bag after
the crash, which left seven people dead and 147 injured.

Mr Burnett told the inquiry: "In addition to giving a very
casual impression of undertaking an important job, it raises the
question of how he was managing to operate the driver's safety
device with both feet on the dashboard."

I recollect that newspaper report, but probably haven't read the
inquiry's conclusions. If that's what you are recollecting.
--
Roland Perry

On 10/03/2022 10:53, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t0chds$u2t$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:36 on Thu, 10 Mar
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>    too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of receiving
>>>>>>>    and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to retrieve
>>>>>>>    a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused Southall?
>>>>>
>>>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>>
>>>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right now. I
>>>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being mentioned in
>>>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>>
>>> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
>>> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
>>> Paddington.
>>
>> Yes, that was my recollection.
>
> From "The Guardian" 21 Sept 1999:
>
> The driver of the 125mph high speed train involved in the
> Southall rail crash was seen with his feet on the dashboard in
> the train's cab twice within an hour of the accident, the
> opening of the official inquiry was told yesterday.
>
> Larry Harrison was seen with both feet on the dashboard by
> passengers waiting at Bristol Parkway station and with one foot
> up at Swindon.
>
> He may also have been using a bag instead of his feet to keep
> the driver's device known as the dead man's handle pressed down,
> the inquiry heard. The handle stops the train automatically if
> allowed to rise.
>
> Ian Burnett, QC, counsel to the inquiry, said that a number of
> passengers had reported seeing Mr Harrison with his feet up, and
> that the driver had been very anxious to retrieve his bag after
> the crash, which left seven people dead and 147 injured.
>
> Mr Burnett told the inquiry: "In addition to giving a very
> casual impression of undertaking an important job, it raises the
> question of how he was managing to operate the driver's safety
> device with both feet on the dashboard."
>
> I recollect that newspaper report, but probably haven't read the
> inquiry's conclusions. If that's what you are recollecting.

Is it necessary to operate the pedal while the train is at a halt?
If not then I can understand the driver giving their leg a break,
though putting it on the dash does look rather unprofessional.

In message <t0cr4d$q73$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:13 on Thu, 10 Mar
2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 10/03/2022 10:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t0chds$u2t$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:36 on Thu, 10 Mar
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>    too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of
>>>>>>>>receiving
>>>>>>>>    and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to
>>>>>>>>retrieve
>>>>>>>>    a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused Southall?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right now. I
>>>>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being mentioned in
>>>>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
>>>> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
>>>> Paddington.
>>>
>>> Yes, that was my recollection.
>> From "The Guardian" 21 Sept 1999:
>> The driver of the 125mph high speed train involved in the
>> Southall rail crash was seen with his feet on the dashboard in
>> the train's cab twice within an hour of the accident, the
>> opening of the official inquiry was told yesterday.
>> Larry Harrison was seen with both feet on the dashboard by
>> passengers waiting at Bristol Parkway station and with one foot
>> up at Swindon.
>> He may also have been using a bag instead of his feet to
>>keep
>> the driver's device known as the dead man's handle pressed down,
>> the inquiry heard. The handle stops the train automatically if
>> allowed to rise.
>> Ian Burnett, QC, counsel to the inquiry, said that a number
>>of
>> passengers had reported seeing Mr Harrison with his feet up, and
>> that the driver had been very anxious to retrieve his bag after
>> the crash, which left seven people dead and 147 injured.
>> Mr Burnett told the inquiry: "In addition to giving a very
>> casual impression of undertaking an important job, it raises the
>> question of how he was managing to operate the driver's safety
>> device with both feet on the dashboard."
>> I recollect that newspaper report, but probably haven't read the
>> inquiry's conclusions. If that's what you are recollecting.
>
>Is it necessary to operate the pedal while the train is at a halt?
>If not then I can understand the driver giving their leg a break,

There's nothing in the reporting above to confirm that once under motion
his feet were anywhere else.

>though putting it on the dash does look rather unprofessional.

I know it's fashionable to pour scorn on people who aren't railway
professionals, but I do wonder if m'learned friend would not have been
briefed by whoever he was representing, about things like that.
--
Roland Perry

On 10/03/2022 12:32, Certes wrote:
> On 10/03/2022 10:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t0chds$u2t$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:36 on Thu, 10 Mar
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>> 2022,
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>     too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of
>>>>>>>> receiving
>>>>>>>>     and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to
>>>>>>>> retrieve
>>>>>>>>     a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused
>>>>>>> Southall?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right
>>>>> now. I
>>>>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being
>>>>> mentioned in
>>>>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
>>>> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
>>>> Paddington.
>>>
>>> Yes, that was my recollection.
>>
>>  From "The Guardian" 21 Sept 1999:
>>
>>          The driver of the 125mph high speed train involved in the
>>          Southall rail crash was seen with his feet on the dashboard in
>>          the train's cab twice within an hour of the accident, the
>>          opening of the official inquiry was told yesterday.
>>
>>          Larry Harrison was seen with both feet on the dashboard by
>>          passengers waiting at Bristol Parkway station and with one foot
>>          up at Swindon.
>>
>>          He may also have been using a bag instead of his feet to keep
>>          the driver's device known as the dead man's handle pressed down,
>>          the inquiry heard. The handle stops the train automatically if
>>          allowed to rise.
>>
>>          Ian Burnett, QC, counsel to the inquiry, said that a number of
>>          passengers had reported seeing Mr Harrison with his feet up, and
>>          that the driver had been very anxious to retrieve his bag after
>>          the crash, which left seven people dead and 147 injured.
>>
>>          Mr Burnett told the inquiry: "In addition to giving a very
>>          casual impression of undertaking an important job, it raises the
>>          question of how he was managing to operate the driver's safety
>>          device with both feet on the dashboard."
>>
>> I recollect that newspaper report, but probably haven't read the
>> inquiry's conclusions. If that's what you are recollecting.
>
> Is it necessary to operate the pedal while the train is at a halt?
> If not then I can understand the driver giving their leg a break,
> though putting it on the dash does look rather unprofessional.

It is mentioned in the official report but the evidence was that the bag
wasn't heavy enough to have held the pedal down.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:16:29 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 10/03/2022 12:32, Certes wrote:
>> On 10/03/2022 10:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t0chds$u2t$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:36 on Thu, 10 Mar
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022,
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>     too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of
>>>>>>>>> receiving
>>>>>>>>>     and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to
>>>>>>>>> retrieve
>>>>>>>>>     a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused
>>>>>>>> Southall?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right
>>>>>> now. I
>>>>>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being
>>>>>> mentioned in
>>>>>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
>>>>> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
>>>>> Paddington.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that was my recollection.
>>>
>>>  From "The Guardian" 21 Sept 1999:
>>>
>>>          The driver of the 125mph high speed train involved in the
>>>          Southall rail crash was seen with his feet on the dashboard in
>>>          the train's cab twice within an hour of the accident, the
>>>          opening of the official inquiry was told yesterday.
>>>
>>>          Larry Harrison was seen with both feet on the dashboard by
>>>          passengers waiting at Bristol Parkway station and with one foot
>>>          up at Swindon.
>>>
>>>          He may also have been using a bag instead of his feet to keep
>>>          the driver's device known as the dead man's handle pressed down,
>>>          the inquiry heard. The handle stops the train automatically if
>>>          allowed to rise.
>>>
>>>          Ian Burnett, QC, counsel to the inquiry, said that a number of
>>>          passengers had reported seeing Mr Harrison with his feet up, and
>>>          that the driver had been very anxious to retrieve his bag after
>>>          the crash, which left seven people dead and 147 injured.
>>>
>>>          Mr Burnett told the inquiry: "In addition to giving a very
>>>          casual impression of undertaking an important job, it raises the
>>>          question of how he was managing to operate the driver's safety
>>>          device with both feet on the dashboard."
>>>
>>> I recollect that newspaper report, but probably haven't read the
>>> inquiry's conclusions. If that's what you are recollecting.
>>
>> Is it necessary to operate the pedal while the train is at a halt?
>> If not then I can understand the driver giving their leg a break,
>> though putting it on the dash does look rather unprofessional.
>
>It is mentioned in the official report but the evidence was that the bag
>wasn't heavy enough to have held the pedal down.

And does the pedal have to be held down continuously, or only when prompted?

On 10/03/2022 13:27, Recliner wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:16:29 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 10/03/2022 12:32, Certes wrote:
>>> On 10/03/2022 10:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t0chds$u2t$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:36 on Thu, 10 Mar
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022,
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>>     too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of
>>>>>>>>>> receiving
>>>>>>>>>>     and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to
>>>>>>>>>> retrieve
>>>>>>>>>>     a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused
>>>>>>>>> Southall?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right
>>>>>>> now. I
>>>>>>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being
>>>>>>> mentioned in
>>>>>>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
>>>>>> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
>>>>>> Paddington.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that was my recollection.
>>>>
>>>>  From "The Guardian" 21 Sept 1999:
>>>>
>>>>          The driver of the 125mph high speed train involved in the
>>>>          Southall rail crash was seen with his feet on the dashboard in
>>>>          the train's cab twice within an hour of the accident, the
>>>>          opening of the official inquiry was told yesterday.
>>>>
>>>>          Larry Harrison was seen with both feet on the dashboard by
>>>>          passengers waiting at Bristol Parkway station and with one foot
>>>>          up at Swindon.
>>>>
>>>>          He may also have been using a bag instead of his feet to keep
>>>>          the driver's device known as the dead man's handle pressed down,
>>>>          the inquiry heard. The handle stops the train automatically if
>>>>          allowed to rise.
>>>>
>>>>          Ian Burnett, QC, counsel to the inquiry, said that a number of
>>>>          passengers had reported seeing Mr Harrison with his feet up, and
>>>>          that the driver had been very anxious to retrieve his bag after
>>>>          the crash, which left seven people dead and 147 injured.
>>>>
>>>>          Mr Burnett told the inquiry: "In addition to giving a very
>>>>          casual impression of undertaking an important job, it raises the
>>>>          question of how he was managing to operate the driver's safety
>>>>          device with both feet on the dashboard."
>>>>
>>>> I recollect that newspaper report, but probably haven't read the
>>>> inquiry's conclusions. If that's what you are recollecting.
>>>
>>> Is it necessary to operate the pedal while the train is at a halt?
>>> If not then I can understand the driver giving their leg a break,
>>> though putting it on the dash does look rather unprofessional.
>>
>> It is mentioned in the official report but the evidence was that the bag
>> wasn't heavy enough to have held the pedal down.
>
> And does the pedal have to be held down continuously, or only when prompted?

When prompted or as often as the driver wishes to reset the pedal, I
would imagine. I have seen some older models where the driver must
always have his foot on the pedal, but they can become fail-deadly in
the event that he becomes incapacitated.

There have also been incidents where a driver would just place a heavy
object on the pedal, thus negating the entire deadman feature.

Tell me, are there no models where, instead of a pedal, there is a
vigilance button?

I remember that Amtrak's AEM-7s required engineers (drivers) to make
contact with or let go of the controls every few seconds as a deadman
feature. If that was inoperative, they would use the cab signal
acknowledge button as a secondary.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/03/2022 13:27, Recliner wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:16:29 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/03/2022 12:32, Certes wrote:
>>>> On 10/03/2022 10:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t0chds$u2t$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:36 on Thu, 10 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022,
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>>>     too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of
>>>>>>>>>>> receiving
>>>>>>>>>>>     and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to
>>>>>>>>>>> retrieve
>>>>>>>>>>>     a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused
>>>>>>>>>> Southall?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right
>>>>>>>> now. I
>>>>>>>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being
>>>>>>>> mentioned in
>>>>>>>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
>>>>>>> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
>>>>>>> Paddington.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, that was my recollection.
>>>>>
>>>>>  From "The Guardian" 21 Sept 1999:
>>>>>
>>>>>          The driver of the 125mph high speed train involved in the
>>>>>          Southall rail crash was seen with his feet on the dashboard in
>>>>>          the train's cab twice within an hour of the accident, the
>>>>>          opening of the official inquiry was told yesterday.
>>>>>
>>>>>          Larry Harrison was seen with both feet on the dashboard by
>>>>>          passengers waiting at Bristol Parkway station and with one foot
>>>>>          up at Swindon.
>>>>>
>>>>>          He may also have been using a bag instead of his feet to keep
>>>>>          the driver's device known as the dead man's handle pressed down,
>>>>>          the inquiry heard. The handle stops the train automatically if
>>>>>          allowed to rise.
>>>>>
>>>>>          Ian Burnett, QC, counsel to the inquiry, said that a number of
>>>>>          passengers had reported seeing Mr Harrison with his feet up, and
>>>>>          that the driver had been very anxious to retrieve his bag after
>>>>>          the crash, which left seven people dead and 147 injured.
>>>>>
>>>>>          Mr Burnett told the inquiry: "In addition to giving a very
>>>>>          casual impression of undertaking an important job, it raises the
>>>>>          question of how he was managing to operate the driver's safety
>>>>>          device with both feet on the dashboard."
>>>>>
>>>>> I recollect that newspaper report, but probably haven't read the
>>>>> inquiry's conclusions. If that's what you are recollecting.
>>>>
>>>> Is it necessary to operate the pedal while the train is at a halt?
>>>> If not then I can understand the driver giving their leg a break,
>>>> though putting it on the dash does look rather unprofessional.
>>>
>>> It is mentioned in the official report but the evidence was that the bag
>>> wasn't heavy enough to have held the pedal down.
>>
>> And does the pedal have to be held down continuously, or only when prompted?
>
> When prompted or as often as the driver wishes to reset the pedal, I
> would imagine. I have seen some older models where the driver must
> always have his foot on the pedal, but they can become fail-deadly in
> the event that he becomes incapacitated.
>
> There have also been incidents where a driver would just place a heavy
> object on the pedal, thus negating the entire deadman feature.

In an HST, the pedal must be released about once a minute, so the driver
can't just place a weight on it.

The Southali Rail Accident Inquiry Report says:

1.18 As noted earlier, the DVD, which emits a warbling sound and requires
the driver's foot pedal to be released and depressed approximately once a
minute, was working. The DVD in power car 43173 was subsequently found to
have a period of 55 seconds, and Driver Harrison must have been alert to
react to the device. The period between the warnings is, however, not
inconsistent with the longer period of inattention considered above. Driver
Harrison might simply have dozed off between the successive warnings from
the DVD, long enough to have missed the two signals and have looked up only
in time to see signal SN254 at red when it came into sight.

The driver's bag

1.19 An alternative possibility must also be considered, as to which the
evidence remains sparse. Its importance is such, however, that this report
would be incomplete without considering it. The possibility was explored by
British. Transport Police (BTP) that Driver Harrison might have been
misusing the train controls so as to allow him to break off from normal
vigilance. The suggestion is centred on Driver Hamson's bag. He chose to
use a sports type holdall in lieu of the smaller railway issue. The
driver's bag is needed to carry particular items of equipment including a
Bardic lamp, various items of refreshment, a high-visibility vest for use
on the track, and various keys and security devices for operating the train
controls, carriage doors, etc. Driver Harrison's bag was found to contain
two cans of fizzy drink and a railway issue metal vacuum flask, together
with a jar of tea bags. His preference was for decaffeinated tea. Why,
then, did the bag also contain soft drinks? Driver Harrison explained that
he occasionally preferred this when he wanted a long drink. The explanation
seems plausible enough. Those investigating the incident considered,
however, that the possibility existed that he had deliberately weighted his
bag in order to be able to use it to hold down the DSD pedal, which has to
be kept depressed.

1.20 The proposition was, thus, that Driver Harrison might have used his
bag to depress the pedal leaving him around 55 seconds between pulses of
the DVD, during which he could stand up,. stretch and carry out other
activities inconsistent with keeping a proper lookout. The bag, as
recovered from Driver Harrison by the police was not, in fact, heavy enough
to depress the pedal, nor even to hold it down. It was confirmed, however,
that the bag could have been used at least to hold the pedal down after
being depressed manually if it had contained some additional weight. If
this is the case, then what happened to the additional weight?

1.21 The circumstances in which the bag was recovered were the subject of a
considerable amount of evidence. Shortly after the collision Driver
Harrison had emerged from the engine compartment and left the train taking
with him a red flag and his job diagram. His first duty was to report the
collision to the signal box, and he would need to be sure of the Train
Number (he had driven more than one train that day). After one unsuccessll
attempt to call the Slough IECC from signal No. SN251, he made a second
call, this time successfully, at about the time that PC Vipas first
appeared on the scene. PC Vipas took over the end of the call. A transcript
of the call is at Annex 8. PC Vipas subsequently noted down Driver
Harrison's statement concerning putting things away in his bag. Perhaps
this triggered Driver Harrison's memory, because he then became anxious to
recover his bag, such that PC Vipas thought that Driver Harrison would have
to be restrained. Instead, he was allowed to go back to the power car to
retrieve his bag. There was conflicting evidence about the exact position
of the bag in the cab. However, this was partly resolved by the clear
recollection of PC Vipas that Driver Harrison, without looking in, went
straight to the right hand side of the cab, which had been partly
demolished by the collision, and "reached in" to pick up the bag. Driver
Harrison seemed to know where the bag was. Was it resting on the driver's
pedal?

On 10/03/2022 21:33, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/03/2022 13:27, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:16:29 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/03/2022 12:32, Certes wrote:
>>>>> On 10/03/2022 10:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t0chds$u2t$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:36 on Thu, 10 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022,
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>    "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>>>>     too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of
>>>>>>>>>>>> receiving
>>>>>>>>>>>>     and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to
>>>>>>>>>>>> retrieve
>>>>>>>>>>>>     a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused
>>>>>>>>>>> Southall?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right
>>>>>>>>> now. I
>>>>>>>>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being
>>>>>>>>> mentioned in
>>>>>>>>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
>>>>>>>> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
>>>>>>>> Paddington.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, that was my recollection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  From "The Guardian" 21 Sept 1999:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          The driver of the 125mph high speed train involved in the
>>>>>>          Southall rail crash was seen with his feet on the dashboard in
>>>>>>          the train's cab twice within an hour of the accident, the
>>>>>>          opening of the official inquiry was told yesterday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Larry Harrison was seen with both feet on the dashboard by
>>>>>>          passengers waiting at Bristol Parkway station and with one foot
>>>>>>          up at Swindon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          He may also have been using a bag instead of his feet to keep
>>>>>>          the driver's device known as the dead man's handle pressed down,
>>>>>>          the inquiry heard. The handle stops the train automatically if
>>>>>>          allowed to rise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Ian Burnett, QC, counsel to the inquiry, said that a number of
>>>>>>          passengers had reported seeing Mr Harrison with his feet up, and
>>>>>>          that the driver had been very anxious to retrieve his bag after
>>>>>>          the crash, which left seven people dead and 147 injured.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Mr Burnett told the inquiry: "In addition to giving a very
>>>>>>          casual impression of undertaking an important job, it raises the
>>>>>>          question of how he was managing to operate the driver's safety
>>>>>>          device with both feet on the dashboard."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I recollect that newspaper report, but probably haven't read the
>>>>>> inquiry's conclusions. If that's what you are recollecting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it necessary to operate the pedal while the train is at a halt?
>>>>> If not then I can understand the driver giving their leg a break,
>>>>> though putting it on the dash does look rather unprofessional.
>>>>
>>>> It is mentioned in the official report but the evidence was that the bag
>>>> wasn't heavy enough to have held the pedal down.
>>>
>>> And does the pedal have to be held down continuously, or only when prompted?
>>
>> When prompted or as often as the driver wishes to reset the pedal, I
>> would imagine. I have seen some older models where the driver must
>> always have his foot on the pedal, but they can become fail-deadly in
>> the event that he becomes incapacitated.
>>
>> There have also been incidents where a driver would just place a heavy
>> object on the pedal, thus negating the entire deadman feature.
>
> In an HST, the pedal must be released about once a minute, so the driver
> can't just place a weight on it.

I know that. I was referring to older models, and nothing newer.

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 10/03/2022 10:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t0chds$u2t$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:36 on Thu, 10 Mar
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>    too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of receiving
>>>>>>>>    and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to retrieve
>>>>>>>>    a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused Southall?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right now. I
>>>>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being mentioned in
>>>>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
>>>> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
>>>> Paddington.
>>>
>>> Yes, that was my recollection.
>>
>> From "The Guardian" 21 Sept 1999:
>>
>> The driver of the 125mph high speed train involved in the
>> Southall rail crash was seen with his feet on the dashboard in
>> the train's cab twice within an hour of the accident, the
>> opening of the official inquiry was told yesterday.
>>
>> Larry Harrison was seen with both feet on the dashboard by
>> passengers waiting at Bristol Parkway station and with one foot
>> up at Swindon.
>>
>> He may also have been using a bag instead of his feet to keep
>> the driver's device known as the dead man's handle pressed down,
>> the inquiry heard. The handle stops the train automatically if
>> allowed to rise.
>>
>> Ian Burnett, QC, counsel to the inquiry, said that a number of
>> passengers had reported seeing Mr Harrison with his feet up, and
>> that the driver had been very anxious to retrieve his bag after
>> the crash, which left seven people dead and 147 injured.
>>
>> Mr Burnett told the inquiry: "In addition to giving a very
>> casual impression of undertaking an important job, it raises the
>> question of how he was managing to operate the driver's safety
>> device with both feet on the dashboard."
>>
>> I recollect that newspaper report, but probably haven't read the
>> inquiry's conclusions. If that's what you are recollecting.
>
> Is it necessary to operate the pedal while the train is at a halt?
> If not then I can understand the driver giving their leg a break,
> though putting it on the dash does look rather unprofessional.
>

The impression I gain from the quote above is that the reports are of what
passengers saw as the train rolled into the platform; there'd be no reason
for passengers to be in a position to see the driver while the train was
stopped at Bristol Parkway, at the platforms which existed at the time.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:16:29 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 10/03/2022 12:32, Certes wrote:
>>> On 10/03/2022 10:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t0chds$u2t$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:36 on Thu, 10 Mar
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 07:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t0889c$au3$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:04 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022,
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2022 15:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t07sp1$75c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:37 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60663152>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it's a blessing he wasn't also reading a newspaper.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    "Passing sentence, Judge David Potter said the train had been
>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>>     too fast because Hollis was distracted by a combination of
>>>>>>>>>> receiving
>>>>>>>>>>     and sending WhatsApp messages and leaning out of his cab to
>>>>>>>>>> retrieve
>>>>>>>>>>     a bag which had fallen on to the floor".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wasn't a bag on the floor part of the distraction that caused
>>>>>>>>> Southall?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A bag allegedly being used to defeat the dead-man's handle, iirc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's not my recollection, though I don't have time to check right
>>>>>>> now. I
>>>>>>> do recall 'bag heavy enough to operate the DSD pedal' being
>>>>>>> mentioned in
>>>>>>> *a* report sometime, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC someone jumped on that assumption but the report merely said he'd
>>>>>> leant down to put something away in his bag, preparatory to arriving at
>>>>>> Paddington.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that was my recollection.
>>>>
>>>>  From "The Guardian" 21 Sept 1999:
>>>>
>>>>          The driver of the 125mph high speed train involved in the
>>>>          Southall rail crash was seen with his feet on the dashboard in
>>>>          the train's cab twice within an hour of the accident, the
>>>>          opening of the official inquiry was told yesterday.
>>>>
>>>>          Larry Harrison was seen with both feet on the dashboard by
>>>>          passengers waiting at Bristol Parkway station and with one foot
>>>>          up at Swindon.
>>>>
>>>>          He may also have been using a bag instead of his feet to keep
>>>>          the driver's device known as the dead man's handle pressed down,
>>>>          the inquiry heard. The handle stops the train automatically if
>>>>          allowed to rise.
>>>>
>>>>          Ian Burnett, QC, counsel to the inquiry, said that a number of
>>>>          passengers had reported seeing Mr Harrison with his feet up, and
>>>>          that the driver had been very anxious to retrieve his bag after
>>>>          the crash, which left seven people dead and 147 injured.
>>>>
>>>>          Mr Burnett told the inquiry: "In addition to giving a very
>>>>          casual impression of undertaking an important job, it raises the
>>>>          question of how he was managing to operate the driver's safety
>>>>          device with both feet on the dashboard."
>>>>
>>>> I recollect that newspaper report, but probably haven't read the
>>>> inquiry's conclusions. If that's what you are recollecting.
>>>
>>> Is it necessary to operate the pedal while the train is at a halt?
>>> If not then I can understand the driver giving their leg a break,
>>> though putting it on the dash does look rather unprofessional.
>>
>> It is mentioned in the official report but the evidence was that the bag
>> wasn't heavy enough to have held the pedal down.
>
> And does the pedal have to be held down continuously, or only when prompted?
>

Held down continuously and released briefly when prompted.

Which is another reason to doubt the 'bag on pedal' theory; on any stock
fitted with Vigilance device (which included HST but not all locomotives or
Sprinters/pacers at that time), surely lifting your bag off the pedal every
60s would be even more annoying…

Anna Noyd-Dryver