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aus+uk / uk.railway / Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

SubjectAuthor
* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashNY
+* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashGlazebrook West
|`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
| `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashmartin.coffee
+* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashGlazebrook West
|`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashmartin.coffee
| `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashTweed
|  +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashmartin.coffee
|  |`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashMike Humphrey
|  | `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashTweed
|  |  `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|  `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|   `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashTweed
|    +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |+* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashTweed
|    ||+* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    ||| `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||  +- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |||  `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |||   |`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   | +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |||   | |`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   | | +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |||   | | |`- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   | | `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
|    |||   | |  `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   | |   `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |||   | |    `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   | +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   | |`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |||   | | `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   | `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |||   |  +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   |  |`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |||   |  | `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   |  +- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashGraeme Wall
|    |||   |  `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
|    |||   +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoger Lynn
|    |||   |`- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    |||   `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
|    |||    `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashSam Wilson
|    ||`- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
|    |+* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashTweed
|    ||`- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |`- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
|    `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
+* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashGraeme Wall
|`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashmartin.coffee
| `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|  `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashNY
|   `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashColinR
|    | `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |  `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashColinR
|    +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashTweed
|    |+* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRoland Perry
|    ||`- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRecliner
|    |`- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
|    +- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
|    `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
|     `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashNY
+* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashTweed
|`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashCharles Ellson
| `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
+- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashmartin.coffee
+* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashMarland
|`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashRobert
| +* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashmartin.coffee
| |`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
| | `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashmartin.coffee
| |  `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
| |   `* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashmartin.coffee
| |    `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashmartin.coffee
| `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashArthur Figgis
`* Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashAnna Noyd-Dryver
 `- Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crashNY

Pages:1234
Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<OKadnSq4Gp2oyrT_nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

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Subject: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
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 by: NY - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 01:41 UTC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont

"...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."

"...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan

Re:Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<t0dc7e$7sd$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=25103&group=uk.railway#25103

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Glazebrook West)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re:Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:22:49 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: news.eternal-september.org
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 by: Glazebrook West - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:22 UTC

NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>
> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>
> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>
> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>

According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.

--
--
..sig

Re:Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<t0dc5h$6f8$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=25104&group=uk.railway#25104

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Glazebrook West)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re:Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:22:49 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: news.eternal-september.org
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 by: Glazebrook West - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:22 UTC

NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>
> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>
> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>
> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>

According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.

--
--
..sig

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<t0dh49$mhr$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=25108&group=uk.railway#25108

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 18:47:23 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 18:47 UTC

On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>
>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>
>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>
>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>
>
> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.

That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)

Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
go bankrupt.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<t0djfk$djc$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:27:48 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:27 UTC

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>>
>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>
>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>
>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>
>>
>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>
> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>
> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
> go bankrupt.
>

The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term continued use of
HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<t0djo9$ipg$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=25112&group=uk.railway#25112

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:32:25 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:32 UTC

On 10/03/2022 19:27, Tweed wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>>>
>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>
>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>
>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>
>>>
>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>
>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>
>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>> go bankrupt.
>>
>
> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term continued use of
> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.
>

I was thinking that. There goes the most comfortable trains by far on
the network.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<t0dqs2$o71$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=25120&group=uk.railway#25120

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:33:54 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 40
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:33 UTC

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>>>
>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>
>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>
>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>
>>>
>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>
>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>
>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>> go bankrupt.
>>
>
> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term continued use of
> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.
>

It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have improved in the
last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of
intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
cracking.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:57:03 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:57 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>
>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>
>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>
>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>
>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>> go bankrupt.
>>>
>>
>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term continued use of
>> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.
>>
>
> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
> good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have improved in the
> last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
> body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
> tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of
> intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
> cracking.
>
>

Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
It’s all a bit too much to quote here

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 22:27:46 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 22:27 UTC

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>
>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>
>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term continued use of
>>> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.
>>>
>>
>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
>> good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have improved in the
>> last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
>> body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
>> tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of
>> intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
>> cracking.
>>
>>
>
> Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
> Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf
>

Thanks. As you say, this will shorten the service lives of the remaining
HSTs, and not just in Scotland. If any expensive modifications are required
(eg, for stronger couplers and bogie retention), they may not have a long
enough expected life to justify the cost.

One can't help wonder that newer, more crash-resistent Mark 4s are being
scrapped while elderly Mark 3s are expected to soldier on into their sixth
decade of service.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<Vn0Qfb3qauKiFAzV@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 06:05:30 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 93
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 06:05 UTC

In message <t0ds7f$mdr$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:57:03 on Thu, 10 Mar
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-6
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-
>>>>>>a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>
>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>
>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term
>>>continued use of
>>> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.
>>>
>>
>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
>> good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have improved in the
>> last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
>> body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
>> tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of
>> intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
>> cracking.

>Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
>Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>
>https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf4/
>R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf

Synopsis:

Was the condition of the train a factor in the extent of the damage?

S71 The bodyshells of the coaches generally performed well in the
accident, resulting in only limited loss of survival space and resisting
injurious penetration of passenger spaces during impacts with other
vehicles and bogies. However, there was complete loss of survival space
in the leading vestibule of the leading coach. The vestibule was
protected by four body-end 'collision' pillars comprising two gangway
pillars either side of the flexible gangway, and two corner pillars next
to the doors. All the pillars at the leading end were sheared off at
their bases.

S72 Given the age of the vehicles, it was unsurprising that damaged
areas of the coach structures were found to have areas of corrosion.
RAIB considered whether the extent of corrosion may have significantly
affected the way the coach structures deformed and in particular the
loss of survival space observed in the leading coach. However, since the
forces applied to the collision pillars in the interaction with the
leading power car are not known, the investigation was not able to
determine whether or not the original strength of the pillars (that is,
without any material loss due to corrosion) would have been sufficient
to prevent the loss of survival space that led to the death of the
train's conductor.

S73 The coaches involved in the accident had been extensively
refurbished in 2019 by Wabtec. Records for corrosion repairs provided by
Wabtec indicate some localised corrosion had been identified on the
collision pillars on the leading coach, and repairs had been authorised.
At that time, there were no formal criteria for judging the tolerability
of the corrosion and the extent of repairs that were required in this
area. Instead the need for, and extent of, repairs was based on
engineering judgment. There are no photographic records of the work
actually done and the pillars were too severely damaged in the accident
for a meaningful retrospective assessment of this work.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:30:00 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 65
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 by: Tweed - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:30 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>>
>>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term continued use of
>>>> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
>>> good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have improved in the
>>> last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
>>> body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
>>> tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of
>>> intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
>>> cracking.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
>> Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
>> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>>
>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf
>>
>
> Thanks. As you say, this will shorten the service lives of the remaining
> HSTs, and not just in Scotland. If any expensive modifications are required
> (eg, for stronger couplers and bogie retention), they may not have a long
> enough expected life to justify the cost.
>
> One can't help wonder that newer, more crash-resistent Mark 4s are being
> scrapped while elderly Mark 3s are expected to soldier on into their sixth
> decade of service.
>
>

Are Mk4s going for scrap? I didn’t know that.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: mai...@michaelhumphrey.me.uk (Mike Humphrey)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:30:54 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Mike Humphrey - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:30 UTC

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:32:25 +0000, martin.coffee wrote:
> On 10/03/2022 19:27, Tweed wrote:
>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term continued
>> use of HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern
>> standards.
>>
> I was thinking that. There goes the most comfortable trains by far on
> the network.

If the minimum standards are going to be moved up past Mark 3 coaches,
there's a lot of new trains needed. IIRC most of the Sprinters are either
based on Mark 3 designs or at least built to the same standards.
It also would kill off most railtours if Mk2 and Mk3 coaches are banned
from the main line.

Mike

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:48:41 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:48 UTC

Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:32:25 +0000, martin.coffee wrote:
>> On 10/03/2022 19:27, Tweed wrote:
>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term continued
>>> use of HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern
>>> standards.
>>>
>> I was thinking that. There goes the most comfortable trains by far on
>> the network.
>
> If the minimum standards are going to be moved up past Mark 3 coaches,
> there's a lot of new trains needed. IIRC most of the Sprinters are either
> based on Mark 3 designs or at least built to the same standards.
> It also would kill off most railtours if Mk2 and Mk3 coaches are banned
> from the main line.
>
> Mike
>

Speed and probability though. Rail tours make up a vanishingly small
proportion of the daily traffic. HSTs in Scotland have several problems:
the driver protection that the plastic cab provides is very poor. The HSTs
are running on some sparsely trafficked lines that are hard to patrol,
those lines as we have seen, being prone to weather related failures.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:12:44 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:12 UTC

On 11/03/2022 09:03, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 01:41:06 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>
>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>
>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>
>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>
> Why does speed not appear to have been considered as a contributing
> factor? To an outsider, driving at 73 mph in atrocious weather
> conditions knowing that the train was returning to its point of origin
> because it was not safe to proceed would on the roads be considered
> dangerous driving.

The problem was it was fine on the way out. There was no obvious reason
why it shouldn't have been on the way back.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:03:30 +0000
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:03 UTC

In message <t0etpo$r1v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:30:00 on Fri, 11 Mar
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-o
>>>>>>>>f-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>>>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term
>>>>>continued use of
>>>>> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
>>>> good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have improved in the
>>>> last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
>>>> body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
>>>> tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of
>>>> intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
>>>> cracking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
>>> Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
>>> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>>>
>>>
>>>https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf
>>>4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf
>>>
>>
>> Thanks. As you say, this will shorten the service lives of the remaining
>> HSTs, and not just in Scotland. If any expensive modifications are required
>> (eg, for stronger couplers and bogie retention), they may not have a long
>> enough expected life to justify the cost.
>>
>> One can't help wonder that newer, more crash-resistent Mark 4s are being
>> scrapped while elderly Mark 3s are expected to soldier on into their sixth
>> decade of service.
>
>Are Mk4s going for scrap? I didn’t know that.

Wonkypedia says that of 303 built, 19 have been scrapped, and 139 are in
storage. Presumably mainly displaced from the ECML.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:26:07 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:26 UTC

On 11/03/2022 09:12, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 11/03/2022 09:03, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 01:41:06 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>
>>>
>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>
>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>> staff"  ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>
>> Why does speed not appear to have been considered as a contributing
>> factor?  To an outsider, driving at 73 mph in atrocious weather
>> conditions knowing that the train was returning to its point of origin
>> because it was not safe to proceed would on the roads be considered
>> dangerous driving.
>
> The problem was it was fine on the way out. There was no obvious reason
> why it shouldn't have been on the way back.
>
There was an obvious reason that it may not have been fine on the way
back there had been copious amounts of rain. The problem was that
control was too overloaded to make sensible decisions.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:26:19 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:26 UTC

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 22:27:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>>>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term continued use of
>>>>> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
>>>> good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have improved in the
>>>> last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
>>>> body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
>>>> tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of
>>>> intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
>>>> cracking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
>>> Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
>>> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>>>
>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf
>>>
>>
>> Thanks. As you say, this will shorten the service lives of the remaining
>> HSTs, and not just in Scotland. If any expensive modifications are required
>> (eg, for stronger couplers and bogie retention), they may not have a long
>> enough expected life to justify the cost.
>>
>> One can't help wonder that newer, more crash-resistent Mark 4s are being
>> scrapped while elderly Mark 3s are expected to soldier on into their sixth
>> decade of service.
>
> Could Mark 4 coaches be used with HST power cars?
>

The power cars are part of the problem. Extremely limited driver protection
compared to a modern train. The probability of a Scottish HST being the
first to encounter an unknown obstruction is probably much higher than HSTs
running on the mainlines of yore. I can see that many will see this as
unacceptable now that reasonable alternatives exist.

Perhaps it’s time for investment in some decent new stock, with panoramic
windows to encourage tourist traffic.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:27:51 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:27 UTC

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 01:41:06 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>
>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>
>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>
>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>
> Why does speed not appear to have been considered as a contributing
> factor? To an outsider, driving at 73 mph in atrocious weather
> conditions knowing that the train was returning to its point of origin
> because it was not safe to proceed would on the roads be considered
> dangerous driving.
>

Trains, ordinarily, don’t drive on sight. It’s very different to driving a
car.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:41:18 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:41 UTC

On 11/03/2022 09:03, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 01:41:06 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>
>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>
>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>
>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>
> Why does speed not appear to have been considered as a contributing
> factor? To an outsider, driving at 73 mph in atrocious weather
> conditions knowing that the train was returning to its point of origin
> because it was not safe to proceed would on the roads be considered
> dangerous driving.

This is covered in detail in the full report.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:05:31 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:05 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t0etpo$r1v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:30:00 on Fri, 11 Mar
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-o
>>>>>>>>> f-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>>>>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term
>>>>>> continued use of
>>>>>> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
>>>>> good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have improved in the
>>>>> last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
>>>>> body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
>>>>> tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of
>>>>> intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
>>>>> cracking.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
>>>> Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
>>>> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf
>>>> 4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks. As you say, this will shorten the service lives of the remaining
>>> HSTs, and not just in Scotland. If any expensive modifications are required
>>> (eg, for stronger couplers and bogie retention), they may not have a long
>>> enough expected life to justify the cost.
>>>
>>> One can't help wonder that newer, more crash-resistent Mark 4s are being
>>> scrapped while elderly Mark 3s are expected to soldier on into their sixth
>>> decade of service.
>>
>> Are Mk4s going for scrap? I didn’t know that.
>
> Wonkypedia says that of 303 built, 19 have been scrapped, and 139 are in
> storage. Presumably mainly displaced from the ECML.

All from the ECML, not mainly. Very few have found a new role.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<t0f6tc$a6l$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=25148&group=uk.railway#25148

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:05:32 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:05 UTC

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 22:27:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60654251
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>>>>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term continued use of
>>>>>> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern standards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
>>>>> good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have improved in the
>>>>> last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
>>>>> body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
>>>>> tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of
>>>>> intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
>>>>> cracking.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
>>>> Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
>>>> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>>>>
>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks. As you say, this will shorten the service lives of the remaining
>>> HSTs, and not just in Scotland. If any expensive modifications are required
>>> (eg, for stronger couplers and bogie retention), they may not have a long
>>> enough expected life to justify the cost.
>>>
>>> One can't help wonder that newer, more crash-resistent Mark 4s are being
>>> scrapped while elderly Mark 3s are expected to soldier on into their sixth
>>> decade of service.
>>
>> Could Mark 4 coaches be used with HST power cars?
>>
>
> The power cars are part of the problem. Extremely limited driver protection
> compared to a modern train. The probability of a Scottish HST being the
> first to encounter an unknown obstruction is probably much higher than HSTs
> running on the mainlines of yore. I can see that many will see this as
> unacceptable now that reasonable alternatives exist.
>
> Perhaps it’s time for investment in some decent new stock, with panoramic
> windows to encourage tourist traffic.
>
>

I'm sure Stadler could oblige… They could be bi-modes, too, to take
advantage of the increasing amounts of OHLE in Scotland.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<B20FbnCqRyKiFAQ9@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=25150&group=uk.railway#25150

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:28:58 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <B20FbnCqRyKiFAQ9@perry.uk>
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:28 UTC

In message <t0f6tb$a6l$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:05:31 on Fri, 11 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t0etpo$r1v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:30:00 on Fri, 11 Mar
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-o
>>>>>>>>>> f-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>>>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>>>>>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>>>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>>>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>>>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term
>>>>>>> continued use of
>>>>>>> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern
>>>>>>>standards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
>>>>>> good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have
>>>>>>improved in the
>>>>>> last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
>>>>>> body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
>>>>>> tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After
>>>>>>decades of
>>>>>> intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
>>>>>> cracking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
>>>>> Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
>>>>> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf
>>>>> 4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. As you say, this will shorten the service lives of the remaining
>>>> HSTs, and not just in Scotland. If any expensive modifications are required
>>>> (eg, for stronger couplers and bogie retention), they may not have a long
>>>> enough expected life to justify the cost.
>>>>
>>>> One can't help wonder that newer, more crash-resistent Mark 4s are being
>>>> scrapped while elderly Mark 3s are expected to soldier on into their sixth
>>>> decade of service.
>>>
>>> Are Mk4s going for scrap? I didn’t know that.
>>
>> Wonkypedia says that of 303 built, 19 have been scrapped, and 139 are in
>> storage. Presumably mainly displaced from the ECML.
>
>All from the ECML, not mainly. Very few have found a new role.

I wasn't sure that absolutely every one was ECML, hence the guarded
reference.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:00:25 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 98
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:00 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t0f6tb$a6l$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:05:31 on Fri, 11 Mar
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t0etpo$r1v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:30:00 on Fri, 11 Mar
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-o
>>>>>>>>>>> f-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this must be a
>>>>>>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of passengers and
>>>>>>>>>>> staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>>>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>>>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>>>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>>>>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>>>>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>>>>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term
>>>>>>>> continued use of
>>>>>>>> HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness doesn’t meet modern
>>>>>>>> standards.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong, providing
>>>>>>> good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards have
>>>>>>> improved in the
>>>>>>> last half century, plus elderly, well-used carriages which have had their
>>>>>>> body shells cut to accept larger framed doors and new, heavier retention
>>>>>>> tank toilets aren't as strong as when built in the 1970s. After
>>>>>>> decades of
>>>>>>> intensive service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue
>>>>>>> cracking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
>>>>>> Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
>>>>>> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf
>>>>>> 4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks. As you say, this will shorten the service lives of the remaining
>>>>> HSTs, and not just in Scotland. If any expensive modifications are required
>>>>> (eg, for stronger couplers and bogie retention), they may not have a long
>>>>> enough expected life to justify the cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> One can't help wonder that newer, more crash-resistent Mark 4s are being
>>>>> scrapped while elderly Mark 3s are expected to soldier on into their sixth
>>>>> decade of service.
>>>>
>>>> Are Mk4s going for scrap? I didn’t know that.
>>>
>>> Wonkypedia says that of 303 built, 19 have been scrapped, and 139 are in
>>> storage. Presumably mainly displaced from the ECML.
>>
>> All from the ECML, not mainly. Very few have found a new role.
>
> I wasn't sure that absolutely every one was ECML, hence the guarded
> reference.

They were all built for that line only, and never used on any other line
before retirement. Anticipated BR follow-up orders for the WCML were
overtaken by privatisation.

A few are now running in Wales, but the other retired sets are apparently
redundant. Some were expected to go to new open access operators, but no
longer.

Of course, the IET cracks have deferred the retirement of some LNER Mark 4
sets.

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<3WbIjwDUyyKiFA18@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:03:48 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 90
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:03 UTC

In message <B20FbnCqRyKiFAQ9@perry.uk>, at 10:28:58 on Fri, 11 Mar 2022,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>In message <t0f6tb$a6l$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:05:31 on Fri, 11 Mar
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t0etpo$r1v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:30:00 on Fri, 11 Mar
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-o
>>>>>>>>>>> f-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this
>>>>>>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of
>>>>>>>>>>>passengers and staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>>>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>>>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>>>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>>>>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>>>>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>>>>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term
>>>>>>>>continued use of HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness
>>>>>>>>doesn’t meet modern standards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong,
>>>>>>>providing good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards
>>>>>>>have improved in the last half century, plus elderly, well-used
>>>>>>>carriages which have had their body shells cut to accept larger
>>>>>>>framed doors and new, heavier retention tank toilets aren't as
>>>>>>>strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of intensive
>>>>>>>service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue cracking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
>>>>>> Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
>>>>>> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf
>>>>>> 4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks. As you say, this will shorten the service lives of the remaining
>>>>> HSTs, and not just in Scotland. If any expensive modifications are
>>>>>required
>>>>> (eg, for stronger couplers and bogie retention), they may not have a long
>>>>> enough expected life to justify the cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> One can't help wonder that newer, more crash-resistent Mark 4s are being
>>>>> scrapped while elderly Mark 3s are expected to soldier on into their sixth
>>>>> decade of service.
>>>>
>>>> Are Mk4s going for scrap? I didn’t know that.
>>>
>>> Wonkypedia says that of 303 built, 19 have been scrapped, and 139 are in
>>> storage. Presumably mainly displaced from the ECML.
>>
>>All from the ECML, not mainly. Very few have found a new role.
>
>I wasn't sure that absolutely every one was ECML, hence the guarded
>reference.

A bit more research digging has 12 carriages written off as a result of
Hatfield, so only seven more to track down.

There's apparently 27 in service from TfW, which came partly from LNER
but also partly from a pool stored for use by Grand Central, but never
called upon.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash

<t0fcpq$v9i$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=25156&group=uk.railway#25156

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Faulty drainage work blamed for Stonehaven crash
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:46:02 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:46 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <B20FbnCqRyKiFAQ9@perry.uk>, at 10:28:58 on Fri, 11 Mar 2022,
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>> In message <t0f6tb$a6l$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:05:31 on Fri, 11 Mar
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t0etpo$r1v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:30:00 on Fri, 11 Mar
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/2022 17:22, Glazebrook West wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.net> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-o
>>>>>>>>>>>> f-a-passenger-train-at-carmont
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "...a drainage system had been incorrectly installed..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "...The failures identified are so bad that we believe this
>>>>>>>>>>>> watershed moment in the way we ensure the safety of
>>>>>>>>>>>> passengers and staff" ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> According to the Guardian it wasn't so much incorrectly installed
>>>>>>>>>>> as not matching the design. I don't know whether those boil down
>>>>>>>>>>> to the same thing. The bigger failure seems to have been the
>>>>>>>>>>> lack of inspection by NR when the job was competed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That type of contract assumes that the contractor will do such
>>>>>>>>>> inspections and provide a certification to this effect. (In brief.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of more concern to me is that the procedures allow for contractors to
>>>>>>>>>> retain documentation which is then lost or liable to be lost when they
>>>>>>>>>> go bankrupt.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The report also doesn’t seem to be good news for long term
>>>>>>>>> continued use of HSTs in Scotland. Their crash worthiness
>>>>>>>>> doesn’t meet modern standards.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's funny, Mk 3s were long regarded as exceptionally strong,
>>>>>>>> providing good protection in accidents. But I suppose standards
>>>>>>>> have improved in the last half century, plus elderly, well-used
>>>>>>>> carriages which have had their body shells cut to accept larger
>>>>>>>> framed doors and new, heavier retention tank toilets aren't as
>>>>>>>> strong as when built in the 1970s. After decades of intensive
>>>>>>>> service, they might be suffering from corrosion or fatigue cracking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paragraphs S70 onwards deals with the HST.
>>>>>>> Recommendations 14 to 20 pertain to the HST.
>>>>>>> It’s all a bit too much to quote here
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62275094e90e0747ae239cf
>>>>>>> 4/R022022_220310_Carmont_High_resolution.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks. As you say, this will shorten the service lives of the remaining
>>>>>> HSTs, and not just in Scotland. If any expensive modifications are
>>>>>> required
>>>>>> (eg, for stronger couplers and bogie retention), they may not have a long
>>>>>> enough expected life to justify the cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One can't help wonder that newer, more crash-resistent Mark 4s are being
>>>>>> scrapped while elderly Mark 3s are expected to soldier on into their sixth
>>>>>> decade of service.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are Mk4s going for scrap? I didn’t know that.
>>>>
>>>> Wonkypedia says that of 303 built, 19 have been scrapped, and 139 are in
>>>> storage. Presumably mainly displaced from the ECML.
>>>
>>> All from the ECML, not mainly. Very few have found a new role.
>>
>> I wasn't sure that absolutely every one was ECML, hence the guarded
>> reference.
>
> A bit more research digging has 12 carriages written off as a result of
> Hatfield, so only seven more to track down.

Presumably they were written off in the Selby crash?

>
> There's apparently 27 in service from TfW, which came partly from LNER
> but also partly from a pool stored for use by Grand Central, but never
> called upon.

They were all originally built for the BR ECML operation and only ever
served on that line until the TfW re-use.

They would need modification to work with HST power cars, which may now be
justified if the safety of the Mk 3s is now being questioned.

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