Which england bowlers have the best test average overseas since WW2?
Most of the current lot average 30+ except for Wood. criteria is 45
wickets away, which seems a low enough bar. I reckon Tyson and Snow
must be at the top or near it. I'm assuming that since covered wkts,
our bowlers have found it a lot harder taking wkts abroad since c1980?

mike

On Sun, 15 Jan 2023 07:05:18 -0800 (PST), mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>Which england bowlers have the best test average overseas since WW2?
>Most of the current lot average 30+ except for Wood. criteria is 45
>wickets away, which seems a low enough bar. I reckon Tyson and Snow
>must be at the top or near it.

Wardle is between them in the top 3, with Tyson top.

Completing the top 10 are:

Bailey 70 @ 23.26
Lever 59 @ 23.54
Wood 55 @ 24.64
Fraser 87 @ 25.43
Trueman 78 @ 26.09
Gough 105 @ 26.90
Willis 149 @ 27.20

> I'm assuming that since covered wkts,
>our bowlers have found it a lot harder taking wkts abroad since c1980?

Covering wickets generally helps pace bowlers and hinders spinners, so
you win some, you lose some.

Cheers,

Mike

In message <2f5326f4-fa11-4b44-bf0e-a6e3bf56fe67n@googlegroups.com>,
mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>Which england bowlers have the best test average overseas since WW2?
>Most of the current lot average 30+ except for Wood. criteria is 45
>wickets away, which seems a low enough bar. I reckon Tyson and Snow
>must be at the top or near it.

Seems likely, though I'm not sure that Tyson would meet the 45 wickets
criterion, as I'm not sure whether he played enough overseas Tests
beyond that 1954-5 Ashes series.

> I'm assuming that since covered wkts,
>our bowlers have found it a lot harder taking wkts abroad since c1980?

I think that many overseas countries started covering their Test pitches
earlier than we did in England.
--
John Hall "Do you have cornflakes in America?"
"Well, actually, they're American."
"So what brings you to Britain then if you have cornflakes already?"
Bill Bryson: "Notes from a Small Island"

In message <no68sh99elor2toqioui54iovt80mr6rl1@4ax.com>, Mike Holmans
<spam@jackalope.uk> writes
>
>>Which england bowlers have the best test average overseas since WW2?
>>Most of the current lot average 30+ except for Wood. criteria is 45
>>wickets away, which seems a low enough bar. I reckon Tyson and Snow
>>must be at the top or near it.
>
>Wardle is between them in the top 3, with Tyson top.
>
>Completing the top 10 are:
>
>Bailey 70 @ 23.26
>Lever 59 @ 23.54
>Wood 55 @ 24.64
>Fraser 87 @ 25.43
>Trueman 78 @ 26.09
>Gough 105 @ 26.90
>Willis 149 @ 27.20

It's surprising to see Bailey and Lever so successful, as one would tend
to think of them as fast-medium bowlers especially suited by typical
English conditions. (Though I can think of one outstanding performance
overseas by each of them, in WI and India respectively.) One has the
idea that to be really successful overseas a bowler needs to be
genuinely quick, a wrist-spinner or, in the Indian subcontinent, a
quality finger spinner.
--
John Hall "Do you have cornflakes in America?"
"Well, actually, they're American."
"So what brings you to Britain then if you have cornflakes already?"
Bill Bryson: "Notes from a Small Island"

On 15/01/2023 16:25, John Hall wrote:
> In message <2f5326f4-fa11-4b44-bf0e-a6e3bf56fe67n@googlegroups.com>,
> mike <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>> Which england bowlers have the best test average overseas since WW2?
>> Most of the current lot average 30+ except for Wood. criteria is 45
>> wickets away, which seems a low enough bar. I reckon Tyson and Snow
>> must be at the top or near it.
>
> Seems likely, though I'm not sure that Tyson would meet the 45 wickets
> criterion, as I'm not sure whether he played enough overseas Tests
> beyond that 1954-5 Ashes series.

He played a further 8: 2 in the 1958/59 Ashes, 2 in each of the NZ tours
that followed those Ashes series, and 2 in SA in 1956/57. In total he
had 56 away wickets @ 18.96.

The one on Mike's list who only just qualifies is Wardle with 45
wickets. If we raise the qualification to 50, the top 9 are all pace
bowlers, with Underwood sneaking into the top 10 as the top spinner.

--
David North

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 4:46:12 PM UTC, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 15/01/2023 16:25, John Hall wrote:
> > In message <2f5326f4-fa11-4b44...@googlegroups.com>,
> > mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >> Which england bowlers have the best test average overseas since WW2?
> >> Most of the current lot average 30+ except for Wood. criteria is 45
> >> wickets away, which seems a low enough bar. I reckon Tyson and Snow
> >> must be at the top or near it.
> >
> > Seems likely, though I'm not sure that Tyson would meet the 45 wickets
> > criterion, as I'm not sure whether he played enough overseas Tests
> > beyond that 1954-5 Ashes series.
> He played a further 8: 2 in the 1958/59 Ashes, 2 in each of the NZ tours
> that followed those Ashes series, and 2 in SA in 1956/57. In total he
> had 56 away wickets @ 18.96.
>
> The one on Mike's list who only just qualifies is Wardle with 45
> wickets. If we raise the qualification to 50, the top 9 are all pace
> bowlers, with Underwood sneaking into the top 10 as the top spinner.
>

Yes Wardle had 45 at 20.00, and Snow 62 at 20.92. I thought he had
played a lot more tours than just 12 tests!

Underwood had 152 at 27.46 from 44 matches.

If we raise it to all those over 100 wkts, then the usual chaps show up,
but with the exception of Statham they all hover around the 30 average.
Any others? Have i missed out anyone? I dont know how to generate
a list on cricinfo, i just check it for each player.

Anderson 246 at 30
Broad 196 at 32
Botham 157 at 29
Swann 135 at 30
Hoggard 126 at 30
Flintoff 117 at 29
Caddick 106 at 29
Statham 104 at 27

mike

On 15/01/2023 18:32, mike wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 4:46:12 PM UTC, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>> On 15/01/2023 16:25, John Hall wrote:
>>> In message <2f5326f4-fa11-4b44...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>>> Which england bowlers have the best test average overseas since WW2?
>>>> Most of the current lot average 30+ except for Wood. criteria is 45
>>>> wickets away, which seems a low enough bar. I reckon Tyson and Snow
>>>> must be at the top or near it.
>>>
>>> Seems likely, though I'm not sure that Tyson would meet the 45 wickets
>>> criterion, as I'm not sure whether he played enough overseas Tests
>>> beyond that 1954-5 Ashes series.
>> He played a further 8: 2 in the 1958/59 Ashes, 2 in each of the NZ tours
>> that followed those Ashes series, and 2 in SA in 1956/57. In total he
>> had 56 away wickets @ 18.96.
>>
>> The one on Mike's list who only just qualifies is Wardle with 45
>> wickets. If we raise the qualification to 50, the top 9 are all pace
>> bowlers, with Underwood sneaking into the top 10 as the top spinner.
>>
>
> Yes Wardle had 45 at 20.00, and Snow 62 at 20.92. I thought he had
> played a lot more tours than just 12 tests!
>
> Underwood had 152 at 27.46 from 44 matches.
>
> If we raise it to all those over 100 wkts, then the usual chaps show up,
> but with the exception of Statham they all hover around the 30 average.
> Any others? Have i missed out anyone? I dont know how to generate
> a list on cricinfo, i just check it for each player.
>
> Anderson 246 at 30
> Broad 196 at 32
> Botham 157 at 29
> Swann 135 at 30
> Hoggard 126 at 30
> Flintoff 117 at 29
> Caddick 106 at 29
> Statham 104 at 27

Along with Gough and Willis from Mike's list, that's the lot, until
Stokes gets 2 more. I'm assuming that that will happen before Leach gets
another 18.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;orderby=wickets;spanmin1=1+jan+1945;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=bowling

--
David North

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 4:46:12 PM UTC, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 15/01/2023 16:25, John Hall wrote:
> > In message <2f5326f4-fa11-4b44...@googlegroups.com>,
> > mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >> Which england bowlers have the best test average overseas since WW2?
> >> Most of the current lot average 30+ except for Wood. criteria is 45
> >> wickets away, which seems a low enough bar. I reckon Tyson and Snow
> >> must be at the top or near it.
> >
> > Seems likely, though I'm not sure that Tyson would meet the 45 wickets
> > criterion, as I'm not sure whether he played enough overseas Tests
> > beyond that 1954-5 Ashes series.
> He played a further 8: 2 in the 1958/59 Ashes, 2 in each of the NZ tours
> that followed those Ashes series, and 2 in SA in 1956/57. In total he
> had 56 away wickets @ 18.96.
>
> The one on Mike's list who only just qualifies is Wardle with 45
> wickets. If we raise the qualification to 50, the top 9 are all pace
> bowlers, with Underwood sneaking into the top 10 as the top spinner.
>
> --
> David North

How about Laker? He toured the Windies in 1947/8 and 1953/4, SA in 19456/7 and Oz 1958/9 . RH

On Monday, 16 January 2023 at 09:59:17 UTC, anywh...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 4:46:12 PM UTC, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > On 15/01/2023 16:25, John Hall wrote:
> > > In message <2f5326f4-fa11-4b44...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> > >> Which england bowlers have the best test average overseas since WW2?
> > >> Most of the current lot average 30+ except for Wood. criteria is 45
> > >> wickets away, which seems a low enough bar. I reckon Tyson and Snow
> > >> must be at the top or near it.
> > >
> > > Seems likely, though I'm not sure that Tyson would meet the 45 wickets
> > > criterion, as I'm not sure whether he played enough overseas Tests
> > > beyond that 1954-5 Ashes series.
> > He played a further 8: 2 in the 1958/59 Ashes, 2 in each of the NZ tours
> > that followed those Ashes series, and 2 in SA in 1956/57. In total he
> > had 56 away wickets @ 18.96.
> >
> > The one on Mike's list who only just qualifies is Wardle with 45
> > wickets. If we raise the qualification to 50, the top 9 are all pace
> > bowlers, with Underwood sneaking into the top 10 as the top spinner.
> How about Laker? He toured the Windies in 1947/8 and 1953/4, SA in 19456/7 and Oz 1958/9 . RH

58 wickets @ 28.60
He is the next best spinner if you don't count Greig (who presumably didn't take 45 of his 82 wickets with spin). No other spinners average under 30.

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 7:28:31 PM UTC, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 15/01/2023 18:32, mike wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 4:46:12 PM UTC, nos...@lane-farm.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> >> On 15/01/2023 16:25, John Hall wrote:
> >>> In message <2f5326f4-fa11-4b44...@googlegroups.com>,
> >>> mike <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >>>> Which england bowlers have the best test average overseas since WW2?
> >>>> Most of the current lot average 30+ except for Wood. criteria is 45
> >>>> wickets away, which seems a low enough bar. I reckon Tyson and Snow
> >>>> must be at the top or near it.
> >>>
> >>> Seems likely, though I'm not sure that Tyson would meet the 45 wickets
> >>> criterion, as I'm not sure whether he played enough overseas Tests
> >>> beyond that 1954-5 Ashes series.
> >> He played a further 8: 2 in the 1958/59 Ashes, 2 in each of the NZ tours
> >> that followed those Ashes series, and 2 in SA in 1956/57. In total he
> >> had 56 away wickets @ 18.96.
> >>
> >> The one on Mike's list who only just qualifies is Wardle with 45
> >> wickets. If we raise the qualification to 50, the top 9 are all pace
> >> bowlers, with Underwood sneaking into the top 10 as the top spinner.
> >>
> >
> > Yes Wardle had 45 at 20.00, and Snow 62 at 20.92. I thought he had
> > played a lot more tours than just 12 tests!
> >
> > Underwood had 152 at 27.46 from 44 matches.
> >
> > If we raise it to all those over 100 wkts, then the usual chaps show up,
> > but with the exception of Statham they all hover around the 30 average.
> > Any others? Have i missed out anyone? I dont know how to generate
> > a list on cricinfo, i just check it for each player.
> >
> > Anderson 246 at 30
> > Broad 196 at 32
> > Botham 157 at 29
> > Swann 135 at 30
> > Hoggard 126 at 30
> > Flintoff 117 at 29
> > Caddick 106 at 29
> > Statham 104 at 27
> Along with Gough and Willis from Mike's list, that's the lot, until
> Stokes gets 2 more. I'm assuming that that will happen before Leach gets
> another 18.
>
> https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;orderby=wickets;spanmin1=1+jan+1945;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=bowling
>
> --
> David North

Thanks. I spose Leach figures are pretty respectable when you look at the
recent rest. Better away than Lock, Pocock, Panesar, Giles Edmunds and Tufnell.
But he's no underwood or wardle.

mike