Just been on my first ride in an LNER Azuma in standard class. This was
just Berwick to Edinburgh. There would be no way I’d contemplate a long
journey on such seating. The hardness is the secondary issue. The primary
problem is being sat bolt upright. There’s no discernible recline angle.
The second problem is with a window seat there’s no armrest on the window
side. I spent much of the trip trying to find somewhere comfortable for my
arm. Lumo allegedly have better seats, so a good reason to use them. Mind
you, the service was well loaded so many seem to put up with the problem.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just been on my first ride in an LNER Azuma in standard class. This was
> just Berwick to Edinburgh. There would be no way I’d contemplate a long
> journey on such seating. The hardness is the secondary issue. The primary
> problem is being sat bolt upright. There’s no discernible recline angle.
> The second problem is with a window seat there’s no armrest on the window
> side. I spent much of the trip trying to find somewhere comfortable for my
> arm. Lumo allegedly have better seats, so a good reason to use them. Mind
> you, the service was well loaded so many seem to put up with the problem.
>
>

AFAIAA all the seats have armrests at the window side? Except perhaps one
row at each end of the carriage, nearest the door pocket?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 2022-03-11 12:54:54 +0000, Tweed said:

> Just been on my first ride in an LNER Azuma in standard class. This was
> just Berwick to Edinburgh. There would be no way I’d contemplate a long
> journey on such seating. The hardness is the secondary issue. The primary
> problem is being sat bolt upright. There’s no discernible recline angle.
> The second problem is with a window seat there’s no armrest on the window
> side. I spent much of the trip trying to find somewhere comfortable for my
> arm. Lumo allegedly have better seats, so a good reason to use them. Mind
> you, the service was well loaded so many seem to put up with the problem.

I find train seats to be quite a challenging thing to get right,
because my feeling is what I think is a comfortable seat and what is
actually a comfortable seat to spend a longer period of time sitting in
are actually not well aligned. I have had the experience enough times
to sit in something that seams nice and comfy, only to find it is far
from it after maybe an hour, and also sitting in a seat that at first
feels uncomfortable, but I find after a long journey in it, it has done
a good job of providing support on enough occasions, that I no longer
trust my initial judugement on what actually is a comfortable seat.

Robin

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:11:00 +0100, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-03-11 12:54:54 +0000, Tweed said:
>>
>>> Just been on my first ride in an LNER Azuma in standard class. This was
>>> just Berwick to Edinburgh. There would be no way I’d contemplate a long
>>> journey on such seating. The hardness is the secondary issue. The primary
>>> problem is being sat bolt upright. There’s no discernible recline angle.
>>> The second problem is with a window seat there’s no armrest on the window
>>> side. I spent much of the trip trying to find somewhere comfortable for my
>>> arm. Lumo allegedly have better seats, so a good reason to use them. Mind
>>> you, the service was well loaded so many seem to put up with the problem.
>>
>> I find train seats to be quite a challenging thing to get right,
>> because my feeling is what I think is a comfortable seat and what is
>> actually a comfortable seat to spend a longer period of time sitting in
>> are actually not well aligned. I have had the experience enough times
>> to sit in something that seams nice and comfy, only to find it is far
>> from it after maybe an hour, and also sitting in a seat that at first
>> feels uncomfortable, but I find after a long journey in it, it has done
>> a good job of providing support on enough occasions, that I no longer
>> trust my initial judugement on what actually is a comfortable seat.
>>
> Yes, to be fair there must have been expert advice at the design
> stage.
>

Yup:
'Which seat is cheapest and can fit the most into the availability floor
space?'
'We have just what you want: minimal padding and no decline'

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:26:34 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:11:00 +0100, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-03-11 12:54:54 +0000, Tweed said:
>>>>
>>>>> Just been on my first ride in an LNER Azuma in standard class. This was
>>>>> just Berwick to Edinburgh. There would be no way I?d contemplate a long
>>>>> journey on such seating. The hardness is the secondary issue. The primary
>>>>> problem is being sat bolt upright. There?s no discernible recline angle.
>>>>> The second problem is with a window seat there?s no armrest on the window
>>>>> side. I spent much of the trip trying to find somewhere comfortable for my
>>>>> arm. Lumo allegedly have better seats, so a good reason to use them. Mind
>>>>> you, the service was well loaded so many seem to put up with the problem.
>>>>
>>>> I find train seats to be quite a challenging thing to get right,
>>>> because my feeling is what I think is a comfortable seat and what is
>>>> actually a comfortable seat to spend a longer period of time sitting in
>>>> are actually not well aligned. I have had the experience enough times
>>>> to sit in something that seams nice and comfy, only to find it is far
>>>> from it after maybe an hour, and also sitting in a seat that at first
>>>> feels uncomfortable, but I find after a long journey in it, it has done
>>>> a good job of providing support on enough occasions, that I no longer
>>>> trust my initial judugement on what actually is a comfortable seat.
>>>>
>>> Yes, to be fair there must have been expert advice at the design
>>> stage.
>>>
>>
>> Yup:
>> 'Which seat is cheapest and can fit the most into the availability floor
>> space?'
>> 'We have just what you want: minimal padding and no decline'
>
> Are you sure? Will there not be a whole compliance process to take
> account of Equality Act, fire regulations and all sorts?
>

None of which require comfort to be considered. Fire safety and crash
protection were used as excuses as to why the seats had to be so awful.
However dispelled when similarly compliant seats, but more comfortable were
procured for Lumo, and EMT seem to be putting great efforts into the seats
for their new bimodes.

However, given that Azumas seem to be be packed, there will be little
pressure to get the seats changed.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:26:34 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:11:00 +0100, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2022-03-11 12:54:54 +0000, Tweed said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just been on my first ride in an LNER Azuma in standard class. This was
>>>>>> just Berwick to Edinburgh. There would be no way I?d contemplate a long
>>>>>> journey on such seating. The hardness is the secondary issue. The primary
>>>>>> problem is being sat bolt upright. There?s no discernible recline angle.
>>>>>> The second problem is with a window seat there?s no armrest on the window
>>>>>> side. I spent much of the trip trying to find somewhere comfortable for my
>>>>>> arm. Lumo allegedly have better seats, so a good reason to use them. Mind
>>>>>> you, the service was well loaded so many seem to put up with the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> I find train seats to be quite a challenging thing to get right,
>>>>> because my feeling is what I think is a comfortable seat and what is
>>>>> actually a comfortable seat to spend a longer period of time sitting in
>>>>> are actually not well aligned. I have had the experience enough times
>>>>> to sit in something that seams nice and comfy, only to find it is far
>>>>> from it after maybe an hour, and also sitting in a seat that at first
>>>>> feels uncomfortable, but I find after a long journey in it, it has done
>>>>> a good job of providing support on enough occasions, that I no longer
>>>>> trust my initial judugement on what actually is a comfortable seat.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, to be fair there must have been expert advice at the design
>>>> stage.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yup:
>>> 'Which seat is cheapest and can fit the most into the availability floor
>>> space?'
>>> 'We have just what you want: minimal padding and no decline'
>>
>> Are you sure? Will there not be a whole compliance process to take
>> account of Equality Act, fire regulations and all sorts?
>>
>
> None of which require comfort to be considered. Fire safety and crash
> protection were used as excuses as to why the seats had to be so awful.
> However dispelled when similarly compliant seats, but more comfortable were
> procured for Lumo, and EMT seem to be putting great efforts into the seats
> for their new bimodes.
>
> However, given that Azumas seem to be be packed, there will be little
> pressure to get the seats changed.
>
>

It's perhaps worth mentioning that all 80x orders so far, except Lumo, have
been DfT-specified, or clones thereof.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:26:34 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:11:00 +0100, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2022-03-11 12:54:54 +0000, Tweed said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just been on my first ride in an LNER Azuma in standard class. This was
>>>>>>> just Berwick to Edinburgh. There would be no way I?d contemplate a long
>>>>>>> journey on such seating. The hardness is the secondary issue. The primary
>>>>>>> problem is being sat bolt upright. There?s no discernible recline angle.
>>>>>>> The second problem is with a window seat there?s no armrest on the window
>>>>>>> side. I spent much of the trip trying to find somewhere comfortable for my
>>>>>>> arm. Lumo allegedly have better seats, so a good reason to use them. Mind
>>>>>>> you, the service was well loaded so many seem to put up with the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find train seats to be quite a challenging thing to get right,
>>>>>> because my feeling is what I think is a comfortable seat and what is
>>>>>> actually a comfortable seat to spend a longer period of time sitting in
>>>>>> are actually not well aligned. I have had the experience enough times
>>>>>> to sit in something that seams nice and comfy, only to find it is far
>>>>>> from it after maybe an hour, and also sitting in a seat that at first
>>>>>> feels uncomfortable, but I find after a long journey in it, it has done
>>>>>> a good job of providing support on enough occasions, that I no longer
>>>>>> trust my initial judugement on what actually is a comfortable seat.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, to be fair there must have been expert advice at the design
>>>>> stage.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yup:
>>>> 'Which seat is cheapest and can fit the most into the availability floor
>>>> space?'
>>>> 'We have just what you want: minimal padding and no decline'
>>>
>>> Are you sure? Will there not be a whole compliance process to take
>>> account of Equality Act, fire regulations and all sorts?
>>>
>>
>> None of which require comfort to be considered. Fire safety and crash
>> protection were used as excuses as to why the seats had to be so awful.
>> However dispelled when similarly compliant seats, but more comfortable were
>> procured for Lumo, and EMT seem to be putting great efforts into the seats
>> for their new bimodes.
>>
>> However, given that Azumas seem to be be packed, there will be little
>> pressure to get the seats changed.
>>
>>
>
> It's perhaps worth mentioning that all 80x orders so far, except Lumo, have
> been DfT-specified, or clones thereof.
>

It's a pity that VTEC wasn't able to influence the specs of the EC IET
sets.

But at least the EMT and Avanti sets should have better seats.

On 2022-03-14 23:40:20 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said:

> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:26:34 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:11:00 +0100, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2022-03-11 12:54:54 +0000, Tweed said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just been on my first ride in an LNER Azuma in standard class. This was
>>>>>>> just Berwick to Edinburgh. There would be no way I?d contemplate a long
>>>>>>> journey on such seating. The hardness is the secondary issue. The primary
>>>>>>> problem is being sat bolt upright. There?s no discernible recline angle.
>>>>>>> The second problem is with a window seat there?s no armrest on the window
>>>>>>> side. I spent much of the trip trying to find somewhere comfortable for my
>>>>>>> arm. Lumo allegedly have better seats, so a good reason to use them. Mind
>>>>>>> you, the service was well loaded so many seem to put up with the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find train seats to be quite a challenging thing to get right,
>>>>>> because my feeling is what I think is a comfortable seat and what is
>>>>>> actually a comfortable seat to spend a longer period of time sitting in
>>>>>> are actually not well aligned. I have had the experience enough times
>>>>>> to sit in something that seams nice and comfy, only to find it is far
>>>>>> from it after maybe an hour, and also sitting in a seat that at first
>>>>>> feels uncomfortable, but I find after a long journey in it, it has done
>>>>>> a good job of providing support on enough occasions, that I no longer
>>>>>> trust my initial judugement on what actually is a comfortable seat.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, to be fair there must have been expert advice at the design
>>>>> stage.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yup:
>>>> 'Which seat is cheapest and can fit the most into the availability floor
>>>> space?'
>>>> 'We have just what you want: minimal padding and no decline'
>>>
>>> Are you sure? Will there not be a whole compliance process to take
>>> account of Equality Act, fire regulations and all sorts?
>>>
>>
>> None of which require comfort to be considered. Fire safety and crash
>> protection were used as excuses as to why the seats had to be so awful.
>> However dispelled when similarly compliant seats, but more comfortable were
>> procured for Lumo, and EMT seem to be putting great efforts into the seats
>> for their new bimodes.
>>
>> However, given that Azumas seem to be be packed, there will be little
>> pressure to get the seats changed.
>>
>>
>
> It's perhaps worth mentioning that all 80x orders so far, except Lumo, have
> been DfT-specified, or clones thereof.

I've not travelled with LNER, but have done Paddington-Bath and back,
and to Worcester and back on 80x, and found the seats satisfactory for
those trips.

Robin

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:

>
> I've not travelled with LNER, but have done Paddington-Bath and back,
> and to Worcester and back on 80x, and found the seats satisfactory for
> those trips.
>
>

I find that most train seats give me back ache unless I slouch in a manner
which means leg room becomes more important; IET seats for me are certainly
no worse than any other train seats, and certainly no worse than either HST
seats or the previous generation of HST seats, or indeed the previous
generation of HST seats.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I've not travelled with LNER, but have done Paddington-Bath and back,
>> and to Worcester and back on 80x, and found the seats satisfactory for
>> those trips.
>>
>>
>
> I find that most train seats give me back ache unless I slouch in a manner
> which means leg room becomes more important; IET seats for me are certainly
> no worse than any other train seats, and certainly no worse than either HST
> seats or the previous generation of HST seats, or indeed the previous
> generation of HST seats.

It’s insufficient leg room that bothers me on most train seats, rather then
the overall shape of the seat. The exception were some of the GNER Mallard
refurb seats whose squab was rather flatter than usual and it ended up
feeling like I was going to slide out of them. I remember a trip to the
middle of France and back - 158, HST, E*300, Corail * 2, E* again and an EC
125 or 225 set. The EC was the least comfortable of them all, the refurbed
Corail the most. FTR I’m not particularly tall - 5’9” and a bit - but I do
have slightly longer legs than usual for my height.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Am 15.03.2022 um 11:17 schrieb Sam Wilson:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I've not travelled with LNER, but have done Paddington-Bath and back,
>>> and to Worcester and back on 80x, and found the seats satisfactory for
>>> those trips.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I find that most train seats give me back ache unless I slouch in a manner
>> which means leg room becomes more important; IET seats for me are certainly
>> no worse than any other train seats, and certainly no worse than either HST
>> seats or the previous generation of HST seats, or indeed the previous
>> generation of HST seats.
>
> It’s insufficient leg room that bothers me on most train seats, rather then
> the overall shape of the seat. The exception were some of the GNER Mallard
> refurb seats whose squab was rather flatter than usual and it ended up
> feeling like I was going to slide out of them. I remember a trip to the
> middle of France and back - 158, HST, E*300, Corail * 2, E* again and an EC
> 125 or 225 set. The EC was the least comfortable of them all, the refurbed
> Corail the most. FTR I’m not particularly tall - 5’9” and a bit - but I do
> have slightly longer legs than usual for my height.

On the German ICE4, large persons (6' plus?) complain about a seat that
is uncomfortable in their should area, more than about insufficient leg
room.

On 15/03/2022 10:17, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I've not travelled with LNER, but have done Paddington-Bath and back,
>>> and to Worcester and back on 80x, and found the seats satisfactory for
>>> those trips.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I find that most train seats give me back ache unless I slouch in a manner
>> which means leg room becomes more important; IET seats for me are certainly
>> no worse than any other train seats, and certainly no worse than either HST
>> seats or the previous generation of HST seats, or indeed the previous
>> generation of HST seats.
>
> It’s insufficient leg room that bothers me on most train seats, rather then
> the overall shape of the seat. The exception were some of the GNER Mallard
> refurb seats whose squab was rather flatter than usual and it ended up
> feeling like I was going to slide out of them. I remember a trip to the
> middle of France and back - 158, HST, E*300, Corail * 2, E* again and an EC
> 125 or 225 set. The EC was the least comfortable of them all, the refurbed
> Corail the most. FTR I’m not particularly tall - 5’9” and a bit - but I do
> have slightly longer legs than usual for my height.
>

I'm 6ft but my height is in my body. I've always found the MKIII's
comfortable but the IET seats are not comfortable and too hard for long
journeys. The MKIII's ride was superb as originally designed and build
by BR but has been degraded by modifications following the demise of BR.

I've not travelled in the MKIV's for years but found the ride poor.

The BR Class 387 seats are very similar to the IETs but the ride above
about 95 mph is poor. Can anyone explain why gWr cannot provide a
catering trolley on these units? The excuse is "because of the type of
unit".

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> Wrote in message:
>> On the German ICE4, large persons (6' plus?) complain about a seat that
>> is uncomfortable in their should area, more than about insufficient leg room.
>
> There was definitely a UK seat that had that problem - ridiculous
> great wings on the headrests that dug into your shoulders if you
> were tall.
>
> I can't remember which it was; I'm thinking 1st class non-HST loco
> hauled coaching stock - possibly used on Cross Country services
> pre-Voyager, but my memory is very very rusty. Maybe someone else
> can recall!

A former contributor, Neil Worthington(?) used to complain of this. He was
tall, and I think it was the IC75(?) seats used in some of the Mk2
carriages. I suspect it was these ones:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/kpmarek/2797235573/in/photostream/>

Sam

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