Should be interesting, running a railway under war conditions!...

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0015qlt/our-world-platform-
5-escaping-ukraine>
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On 13/03/2022 15:56, tony sayer wrote:
>
>
> Should be interesting, running a railway under war conditions!...
>
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0015qlt/our-world-platform-
> 5-escaping-ukraine>

I also understand that many refugees from Ukraine are coming into Poland
via the Broad Gauge Line.

On 14/03/2022 14:34, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> I also understand that many refugees from Ukraine are coming into Poland
> via the Broad Gauge Line.

Some videos here:
<https://youtu.be/2vhO_Z5QNFs>
<https://youtu.be/wZNO8sBlKp0>
<https://youtu.be/HR6teFeVNRA>
<https://youtu.be/RB_GChCAVpA>

Cheers,
--
Rob
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational
in order to prove that you care, or, indeed, why it should be necessary
to prove it at all." - Avon, Blake's 7

On 14/03/2022 14:34, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 13/03/2022 15:56, tony sayer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Should be interesting, running a railway under war conditions!...
>>
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0015qlt/our-world-platform-
>> 5-escaping-ukraine>
>
> I also understand that many refugees from Ukraine are coming into Poland
> via the Broad Gauge Line.

So the whole thing is just because Putin wants some rare track?

--
Arthur Figgis

Robert <monstoor@spammedia.com> wrote:
> On 14/03/2022 14:34, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>> I also understand that many refugees from Ukraine are coming into Poland
>> via the Broad Gauge Line.
>
> Some videos here:
> <https://youtu.be/2vhO_Z5QNFs>
> <https://youtu.be/wZNO8sBlKp0>
> <https://youtu.be/HR6teFeVNRA>
> <https://youtu.be/RB_GChCAVpA>
>
> Cheers,

Those show Diesel hauled trains, the BBC clip wasn’t that clear whether
some were electric.
I would think a worry of travelling on an electrified route is that power
supply and catenary is vulnerable to disruption and damage.

GH

On 14/03/2022 21:00, Marland wrote:
> Robert <monstoor@spammedia.com> wrote:
>> On 14/03/2022 14:34, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>> I also understand that many refugees from Ukraine are coming into Poland
>>> via the Broad Gauge Line.
>>
>> Some videos here:
>> <https://youtu.be/2vhO_Z5QNFs>
>> <https://youtu.be/wZNO8sBlKp0>
>> <https://youtu.be/HR6teFeVNRA>
>> <https://youtu.be/RB_GChCAVpA>
>>
>> Cheers,
>
> Those show Diesel hauled trains, the BBC clip wasn’t that clear whether
> some were electric.
> I would think a worry of travelling on an electrified route is that power
> supply and catenary is vulnerable to disruption and damage.
>
> GH
>

The broad-gauge line is completely diesel.

On 14/03/2022 18:58, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 14/03/2022 14:34, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 13/03/2022 15:56, tony sayer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Should be interesting, running a railway under war conditions!...
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0015qlt/our-world-platform-
>>> 5-escaping-ukraine>
>>
>> I also understand that many refugees from Ukraine are coming into
>> Poland via the Broad Gauge Line.
>
> So the whole thing is just because Putin wants some rare track?

Putin has nothing to do with this.

LHS was built in 1976 in order to haul iron ore from what was then the
Soviet Union into Upper Silesia, where steel plants that use the BF/BOF
production route are.

Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
use Imperial at 1,520mm.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
..
>
> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>
>

J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?

Though I would not rule it out I don’t think I have seen imperial used
elsewhere to describe it with most sources referring to 1,520 mm and its
earlier incarnation of 1,524mm as Russian Gauge.
While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the choice of
its gauge was made after following the recommendation of a consultant
engineer from the very non imperial United States where the gauge had
already seen some use.
Though I haven’t researched it I would think most 1524-1520 track was built
after the fall of imperial Russia in 1917 so it seems a strange description
to give to the gauge.
Though in the past I have sampled Imperial Russian Stout, a strong dark
British brewed beer that was
favoured by the Russian Royal court who gave their equivalent of a Royal
Warrant to the brewer.
Last seen circa 1993.

GH

On 14/03/2022 23:23, Marland wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> .
>>
>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>
>>
>
> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?
>
> Though I would not rule it out I don’t think I have seen imperial used
> elsewhere to describe it with most sources referring to 1,520 mm and its
> earlier incarnation of 1,524mm as Russian Gauge.

The 1520/1524 gauge came about under the Russian Empire, AIUI, hence
Imperial Gauge. That's how I understood it.

> While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the choice of
> its gauge was made after following the recommendation of a consultant
> engineer from the very non imperial United States where the gauge had
> already seen some use.

Did not know that.

> Though I haven’t researched it I would think most 1524-1520 track was built
> after the fall of imperial Russia in 1917 so it seems a strange description
> to give to the gauge.

I can tell you that this was not the case. It was 1524 before the
October Revolution. The new authorities changed it to 1,520, for some
reason, though Finland kept it at 1,524.

Russia kept its tram networks at 1,524, however, I guess as it was
deemed too labour-intensive to convert.

The Russians did convert at least part of the East Prussia Line in what
is now Kaliningrad to their gauge as it had previously been standard.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 01:23:50 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
<hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 14/03/2022 23:23, Marland wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?
>>
>> Though I would not rule it out I don’t think I have seen imperial used
>> elsewhere to describe it with most sources referring to 1,520 mm and its
>> earlier incarnation of 1,524mm as Russian Gauge.
>
>The 1520/1524 gauge came about under the Russian Empire, AIUI, hence
>Imperial Gauge. That's how I understood it.
>
>> While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the choice of
>> its gauge was made after following the recommendation of a consultant
>> engineer from the very non imperial United States where the gauge had
>> already seen some use.
>
>Did not know that.
>
>> Though I haven’t researched it I would think most 1524-1520 track was built
>> after the fall of imperial Russia in 1917 so it seems a strange description
>> to give to the gauge.
>
>I can tell you that this was not the case. It was 1524 before the
>October Revolution. The new authorities changed it to 1,520, for some
>reason, though Finland kept it at 1,524.
>
Changed rather more recently according to Wonkypaedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_ft_and_1520_mm_gauge_railways -
"At the same time the tolerances were tightened. As the running gear
(wheelsets) of the rolling stock remained unaltered, the result was an
increased speed and stability. The conversion took place between 1970
and the beginning of the 1990s."
Possibly also a tweak in the standard wheel profile?

>Russia kept its tram networks at 1,524, however, I guess as it was
>deemed too labour-intensive to convert.
>
You don't usually have "visiting" trams so no interoperability to
consider.

>The Russians did convert at least part of the East Prussia Line in what
>is now Kaliningrad to their gauge as it had previously been standard.

On 14/03/2022 23:23, Marland wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> .
>>
>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>
>>
>
> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?

Russian Imperial Gauge perhaps?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 2022-03-14 23:23:00 +0000, Marland said:

> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> .
>>
>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>
>>
>
> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?

It was a standard adopted by the Russian Empire back when Tzars were
still a thing, and used both in Russia and in parts of the Russian
Empire that are not actually Russia, for example Ukraine, the Baltic
states and FInland.

> Though I would not rule it out I don’t think I have seen imperial used
> elsewhere to describe it with most sources referring to 1,520 mm and its
> earlier incarnation of 1,524mm as Russian Gauge.
> While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the choice of
> its gauge was made after following the recommendation of a consultant
> engineer from the very non imperial United States where the gauge had
> already seen some use.
> Though I haven’t researched it I would think most 1524-1520 track was built
> after the fall of imperial Russia in 1917 so it seems a strange description
> to give to the gauge.

While there has been significant construction since then, the standard
was established, and the core network built, before that point. Most
obviously the Trans-Siberian railway.

Robin

On 15/03/2022 11:37, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-03-14 23:23:00 +0000, Marland said:
>
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?
>
> It was a standard adopted by the Russian Empire back when Tzars were
> still a thing, and used both in Russia and in parts of the Russian
> Empire that are not actually Russia, for example Ukraine, the Baltic
> states and FInland.

Ukraine, the Baltic States and Finland were once all part of the Russian
Empire.

On 14/03/2022 23:23, Marland wrote:

> While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the choice of
> its gauge was made after following the recommendation of a consultant
> engineer from the very non imperial United States
The Russian empire was nothing like the US in the C19th. One was a
land-based power with a small core of European-esque civilisation which
expanded rapidly across the continent towards the far sea and down to
take land from the wild territories to the south, whether the natives
liked it or not and against some resistance, and made use of labour
under very dodgy terms. The other is some place with vodka and bears.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 15/03/2022 01:23, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 14/03/2022 23:23, Marland wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?
>>
>> Though I would not rule it out I don’t think I have seen imperial used
>> elsewhere to describe it with most sources referring to  1,520 mm and its
>> earlier incarnation of 1,524mm as Russian Gauge.
>
> The 1520/1524 gauge came about under the Russian Empire, AIUI, hence
> Imperial Gauge. That's how I understood it.
>
>> While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the
>> choice of
>> its gauge was made after following the recommendation  of a consultant
>> engineer from the very non imperial United States where the gauge had
>> already seen some use.
>
> Did not know that.
>
>> Though I haven’t researched it I would think most 1524-1520 track was
>> built
>> after the fall of imperial Russia in 1917 so it seems a strange
>> description
>> to give to the gauge.
>
> I can tell you that this was not the case. It was 1524 before the
> October Revolution. The new authorities changed it to 1,520,

In the 1970s.

> for some reason,

Better rolling stock behavour, apparently.

> though Finland kept it at 1,524.

Finland was very long since independent.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 15/03/2022 11:46, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Ukraine, the Baltic States and Finland were once all part of the Russian
> Empire.

Depends which bits of Ukraine, and when. Someone could be
Austro-Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, independent, Hungarian, Soviet and
Ukrainian without ever leaving their village. Crimea has been colonised
by pretty much everyone, even Anglo-Saxons (maybe).

--
Arthur Figgis

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 15/03/2022 01:23, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 14/03/2022 23:23, Marland wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>>>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?
>>>
>>> Though I would not rule it out I don’t think I have seen imperial used
>>> elsewhere to describe it with most sources referring to  1,520 mm and its
>>> earlier incarnation of 1,524mm as Russian Gauge.
>>
>> The 1520/1524 gauge came about under the Russian Empire, AIUI, hence
>> Imperial Gauge. That's how I understood it.
>>
>>> While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the
>>> choice of
>>> its gauge was made after following the recommendation  of a consultant
>>> engineer from the very non imperial United States where the gauge had
>>> already seen some use.
>>
>> Did not know that.
>>
>>> Though I haven’t researched it I would think most 1524-1520 track was
>>> built
>>> after the fall of imperial Russia in 1917 so it seems a strange
>>> description
>>> to give to the gauge.
>>
>> I can tell you that this was not the case. It was 1524 before the
>> October Revolution. The new authorities changed it to 1,520,
>
> In the 1970s.
>
>> for some reason,
>
> Better rolling stock behavour, apparently.
>

Somewhere I’m sure I came across information that the London Underground
was or is a few mm less than the std 1435mm, possibly 1432mm. Don’t know
the reason why though.

GH

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 15/03/2022 11:46, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Ukraine, the Baltic States and Finland were once all part of the Russian
>> Empire.
>
Crimea has been colonised by pretty much everyone, even Anglo-Saxons
(maybe).

Well we did build a railway there.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Crimean_Central_Railway>

GH

Ukraine's wartime rail chief has to be faster than the Russians tracking
him

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60755198

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-03-14 23:23:00 +0000, Marland said:
>
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?
>
> It was a standard adopted by the Russian Empire back when Tzars were
> still a thing, and used both in Russia and in parts of the Russian
> Empire that are not actually Russia, for example Ukraine, the Baltic
> states and FInland.

That I’m not disputing , but look at references to Russian -Soviet Railways
and the Gauge is usually referred to as Russian gauge, its only Hounslow I
have come across who calls it imperial gauge.
I am curious why, is it a self chosen description by him or from a source I
havn’t found.
At the moment any evidence that 1520-1524 is known as imperial gauge seems
pretty sketchy.
Bung Imperial gauge into a search engine and what comes up isn’t anything
to do with railway gauge,
Bung Russian Gauge in brings up loads of references to the railway gauge
which is why I think this use of Imperial is a sobriquet applied by
Hounslow with no historical usage unless he can show otherwise.

GH

On 15 Mar 2022 18:48:08 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
wrote:

>Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On 15/03/2022 01:23, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 14/03/2022 23:23, Marland wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>>>>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?
>>>>
>>>> Though I would not rule it out I don’t think I have seen imperial used
>>>> elsewhere to describe it with most sources referring to  1,520 mm and its
>>>> earlier incarnation of 1,524mm as Russian Gauge.
>>>
>>> The 1520/1524 gauge came about under the Russian Empire, AIUI, hence
>>> Imperial Gauge. That's how I understood it.
>>>
>>>> While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the
>>>> choice of
>>>> its gauge was made after following the recommendation  of a consultant
>>>> engineer from the very non imperial United States where the gauge had
>>>> already seen some use.
>>>
>>> Did not know that.
>>>
>>>> Though I haven’t researched it I would think most 1524-1520 track was
>>>> built
>>>> after the fall of imperial Russia in 1917 so it seems a strange
>>>> description
>>>> to give to the gauge.
>>>
>>> I can tell you that this was not the case. It was 1524 before the
>>> October Revolution. The new authorities changed it to 1,520,
>>
>> In the 1970s.
>>
>>> for some reason,
>>
>> Better rolling stock behavour, apparently.
>>
>
>Somewhere I’m sure I came across information that the London Underground
>was or is a few mm less than the std 1435mm, possibly 1432mm. Don’t know
>the reason why though.
>
Not just LU apparently :-
https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/31893/lul-track-gauge

"BR decided to change track gauge from 1435mm (4ft 8.5in) from the 60s
onwards in a misguided attempt to reduce hunting. All of the "F"
sleepers are set to 1432mm. They reversed this in 1996. All the "G"
sleepers (and 5F40s) are set to 1435mm."

On 15/03/2022 18:19, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> The other is some place with vodka and bears.

Canada?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 20:31:55 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 15/03/2022 18:19, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>> The other is some place with vodka and bears.
>
>Canada?
>
Glasgow. ;-)

On 15/03/2022 18:32, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 15/03/2022 11:46, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Ukraine, the Baltic States and Finland were once all part of the
>> Russian Empire.
>
> Depends which bits of Ukraine, and when. Someone could be
> Austro-Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, independent, Hungarian, Soviet and
> Ukrainian without ever leaving their village.

That's true. A small part of Western Ukraine was part of Hungary in the
Austro-Hungarian Empire, whilst Lviv was part of the Second Polish
Republic until World War II.

> Crimea has been colonised
> by pretty much everyone, even Anglo-Saxons (maybe).

Much like Sicily.

On 15/03/2022 19:43, Marland wrote:
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-03-14 23:23:00 +0000, Marland said:
>>
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>>>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?
>>
>> It was a standard adopted by the Russian Empire back when Tzars were
>> still a thing, and used both in Russia and in parts of the Russian
>> Empire that are not actually Russia, for example Ukraine, the Baltic
>> states and FInland.
>
> That I’m not disputing , but look at references to Russian -Soviet Railways
> and the Gauge is usually referred to as Russian gauge, its only Hounslow I
> have come across who calls it imperial gauge.
> I am curious why, is it a self chosen description by him or from a source I
> havn’t found.
> At the moment any evidence that 1520-1524 is known as imperial gauge seems
> pretty sketchy.
> Bung Imperial gauge into a search engine and what comes up isn’t anything
> to do with railway gauge,
> Bung Russian Gauge in brings up loads of references to the railway gauge
> which is why I think this use of Imperial is a sobriquet applied by
> Hounslow with no historical usage unless he can show otherwise.
>
> GH
>
>
I honestly thought it was Imperial Gauge, but it appears that I am
mistaken.