Later this month we are taking Eurostar to Paris and already have our London-Paris tickets. Since we want to start from Luton Airport Parkway we needed to buy CIV singles from there to St.Pancras.

This web page
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/246761.aspx
says "Ask at any National Rail station for a ticket to "London International" and show your Eurostar or 'railandsail' ticket or booking confirmation." These fares are also listed at brfares.com so must be in the current fares manual and all ticket office machines.

I did exactly that at Luton Airport Parkway station this afternoon, and they pored over our Eurostar tickets and clearly heard my request for a CIV ticket, but sold us standard anytime singles for the right date. Fortunately I checked them before leaving and complained that this was not what I required.

The ticket clerk and a colleague then claimed that they could not sell CIV tickets any more, as if this excused them from making a substitution without warning us. I got an immediate refund for these, of course.

Later on I was in St.Pancras and I tried the EMR ticket office. A very helpful ticket clerk there sold us the required CIV tickets without any problems (and they were in fact cheaper than the non-CIV anytime singles foisted on me at Parkway station). So it clearly *is* still possible to buy them. Has anyone else had problems buying CIV tickets or was I unlucky in encountering a ticket clerk at Luton Parkway who was incompetent, deceptive, and prepared to overcharge us?

This sort of thing really makes me angry. I have already complained to Thameslink, but based on past experience I don't suppose I shall ever get a sensible answer from them.

--
Clive Page

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> Later this month we are taking Eurostar to Paris and already have our
> London-Paris tickets. Since we want to start from Luton Airport Parkway
> we needed to buy CIV singles from there to St.Pancras.
>
> This web page
> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/246761.aspx
> says "Ask at any National Rail station for a ticket to "London
> International" and show your Eurostar or 'railandsail' ticket or booking
> confirmation." These fares are also listed at brfares.com so must be in
> the current fares manual and all ticket office machines.
>
> I did exactly that at Luton Airport Parkway station this afternoon, and
> they pored over our Eurostar tickets and clearly heard my request for a
> CIV ticket, but sold us standard anytime singles for the right date.
> Fortunately I checked them before leaving and complained that this was not what I required.
>
> The ticket clerk and a colleague then claimed that they could not sell
> CIV tickets any more, as if this excused them from making a substitution
> without warning us. I got an immediate refund for these, of course.
>
> Later on I was in St.Pancras and I tried the EMR ticket office. A very
> helpful ticket clerk there sold us the required CIV tickets without any
> problems (and they were in fact cheaper than the non-CIV anytime singles
> foisted on me at Parkway station). So it clearly *is* still possible to
> buy them. Has anyone else had problems buying CIV tickets or was I
> unlucky in encountering a ticket clerk at Luton Parkway who was
> incompetent, deceptive, and prepared to overcharge us?
>
> This sort of thing really makes me angry. I have already complained to
> Thameslink, but based on past experience I don't suppose I shall ever get
> a sensible answer from them.
>

Are you on Twitter? Mr Seat 61 would probably be interested in this!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> Later this month we are taking Eurostar to Paris and already have our
>> London-Paris tickets. Since we want to start from Luton Airport Parkway
>> we needed to buy CIV singles from there to St.Pancras.
>>
>> This web page
>> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/246761.aspx
>> says "Ask at any National Rail station for a ticket to "London
>> International" and show your Eurostar or 'railandsail' ticket or booking
>> confirmation." These fares are also listed at brfares.com so must be in
>> the current fares manual and all ticket office machines.
>>
>> I did exactly that at Luton Airport Parkway station this afternoon, and
>> they pored over our Eurostar tickets and clearly heard my request for a
>> CIV ticket, but sold us standard anytime singles for the right date.
>> Fortunately I checked them before leaving and complained that this was
>> not what I required.
>>
>> The ticket clerk and a colleague then claimed that they could not sell
>> CIV tickets any more, as if this excused them from making a substitution
>> without warning us. I got an immediate refund for these, of course.
>>
>> Later on I was in St.Pancras and I tried the EMR ticket office. A very
>> helpful ticket clerk there sold us the required CIV tickets without any
>> problems (and they were in fact cheaper than the non-CIV anytime singles
>> foisted on me at Parkway station). So it clearly *is* still possible to
>> buy them. Has anyone else had problems buying CIV tickets or was I
>> unlucky in encountering a ticket clerk at Luton Parkway who was
>> incompetent, deceptive, and prepared to overcharge us?
>>
>> This sort of thing really makes me angry. I have already complained to
>> Thameslink, but based on past experience I don't suppose I shall ever get
>> a sensible answer from them.
>>
>
> Are you on Twitter? Mr Seat 61 would probably be interested in this!

And this is also interesting and related. It featured on R4’s Law In
Action today.

<https://www.boundaryfares.com>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <t0qha2$821$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:10:26 on Tue, 15 Mar
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> Later this month we are taking Eurostar to Paris and already have our
>>> London-Paris tickets. Since we want to start from Luton Airport Parkway
>>> we needed to buy CIV singles from there to St.Pancras.
>>>
>>> This web page
>>> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/246761.aspx
>>> says "Ask at any National Rail station for a ticket to "London
>>> International" and show your Eurostar or 'railandsail' ticket or booking
>>> confirmation." These fares are also listed at brfares.com so must be in
>>> the current fares manual and all ticket office machines.
>>>
>>> I did exactly that at Luton Airport Parkway station this afternoon, and
>>> they pored over our Eurostar tickets and clearly heard my request for a
>>> CIV ticket, but sold us standard anytime singles for the right date.
>>> Fortunately I checked them before leaving and complained that this was
>>> not what I required.
>>>
>>> The ticket clerk and a colleague then claimed that they could not sell
>>> CIV tickets any more, as if this excused them from making a substitution
>>> without warning us. I got an immediate refund for these, of course.
>>>
>>> Later on I was in St.Pancras and I tried the EMR ticket office. A very
>>> helpful ticket clerk there sold us the required CIV tickets without any
>>> problems (and they were in fact cheaper than the non-CIV anytime singles
>>> foisted on me at Parkway station). So it clearly *is* still possible to
>>> buy them. Has anyone else had problems buying CIV tickets or was I
>>> unlucky in encountering a ticket clerk at Luton Parkway who was
>>> incompetent, deceptive, and prepared to overcharge us?
>>>
>>> This sort of thing really makes me angry. I have already complained to
>>> Thameslink, but based on past experience I don't suppose I shall ever get
>>> a sensible answer from them.
>>
>> Are you on Twitter? Mr Seat 61 would probably be interested in this!
>
>And this is also interesting and related. It featured on R4’s Law In
>Action today.
>
><https://www.boundaryfares.com>

I had a colleague with a Freedom Pass (much like a free Travelcard) and
he used to buy BZ tickets all the time when travelling outwards from
London. My own problems with Luton Parkway were an apparent inability
for the ticket office at StPancras to sell me a ticket to the airport
itself, which was cheaper than splitting the tickets at Parkway. Of
course, the bus was originally free.

Another dodge was using the Parkway station car park as a cheaper
alternative to the ones at the airport itself. Well, it was
Park-and-Ride, just not a ride to central London!
--
Roland Perry

A follow up to my original post as something remarkable has happened: I got a response from Messrs Thameslink saying that the ticket office *should* have sold me a CIV ticket and they they will issue instructions to clarify this.

Their response doesn't deal with the fact that the clerk sold me a standard single without CIV privileges without telling me of the substitution. She clearly knew what I wanted as she spent some time checking our Eurostar tickets. I find this very reprehensible.

The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more. It is apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little publicity about the system anywhere.

--
Clive Page

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:34:30 +0000, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:

>A follow up to my original post as something remarkable has happened: I got a response from Messrs Thameslink saying that the ticket office *should* have sold me a CIV ticket and they they will issue instructions to clarify this.
>
>Their response doesn't deal with the fact that the clerk sold me a standard single without CIV privileges without telling me of the substitution. She clearly knew what I wanted as she spent some time checking our Eurostar tickets. I find this very reprehensible.
>
>The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more. It is apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little publicity about the system anywhere.

My last Eurostar trip was in March 2020. I have no current plans to travel on it in 2022.

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> A follow up to my original post as something remarkable has happened: I
> got a response from Messrs Thameslink saying that the ticket office
> *should* have sold me a CIV ticket and they they will issue instructions to clarify this.
>
> Their response doesn't deal with the fact that the clerk sold me a
> standard single without CIV privileges without telling me of the
> substitution. She clearly knew what I wanted as she spent some time
> checking our Eurostar tickets. I find this very reprehensible.
>
> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar
> at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more. It is
> apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little
> publicity about the system anywhere.

I’ve used E* for about 5 single trips and I think I have always used CIV
tickets. The fact that they aren’t (or are no longer) available from most
of the online ticket sellers probably limits their popularity. I can’t
remember whether I noticed whether the domestic portion of, say, an
Edinburgh-Paris E* booking was CIV tickets, but I think they were.

As always I’m glad to be corrected by more knowledgeable and up to date
posters!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar
> at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more. It is
> apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little
> publicity about the system anywhere.

I haven't been on Eurostar for a while so I don't have much to comment here,
but I wonder whether the selling of CIV tickets are an answer to the wrong
problem. You can't buy a Eurostar ticket from a random station, so why are
we expecting ticket offices to know about CIV tickets? It seems a bit much
to ask the ticket clerks at stations from Penzance to Wick to know about
them.

Maybe the solution would be for Eurostar to offer a CIV addon ticket at the
point of sale of the Eurostar fare (and the ability to purchase one
afterwards). The same would presumably go for rail+sail tickets, although
I imagine Eurostar has 99% of the international rail travel market. If E*
were to offer the addon tickets when buying Eurostar, and a mini-site to
order them separately, would that not suffice for most people?

The mini-site could have versions branded E* and Rail+Sail to cover both
markets.

Perhaps E* is a wannabe airline so don't want to do that, but they do sell
CIV tickets over the phone so it seems not implausible that a web interface
(with tech bought in, eg from Raileasy or Trainline if they must) could be
made.

Theo

In message <j9tqi6Fe3U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:34:30 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>A follow up to my original post as something remarkable has happened: I
>got a response from Messrs Thameslink saying that the ticket office
>*should* have sold me a CIV ticket and they they will issue
>instructions to clarify this.
>
>Their response doesn't deal with the fact that the clerk sold me a
>standard single without CIV privileges without telling me of the
>substitution. She clearly knew what I wanted as she spent some time
>checking our Eurostar tickets. I find this very reprehensible.
>
>The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
>suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking
>Eurostar at present,

Or indeed are particularly interested in talking about trains and
ticketing. The incessant quibbling about trivia from certain quarters
has driven most participants away.

>or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more.

In the short term, that may be true, due to very few opportunities to
use International rail transport.

Perhaps i's a miracle that CIV has survived Brexit, because I'm sure
some voters wanted to "take back control" of that particular bit of
subsidising the enemy, viz: Europhiles.

>It is apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little
>publicity about the system anywhere.

There was a period when domestic travellers abused the system by buying
the cheaper CIV tickets (without having an E* ticket) hoping they
wouldn't be caught en-route by grippers. That was perhaps the beginning
of the end.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1cl88$h9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:08:08 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> A follow up to my original post as something remarkable has happened: I
>> got a response from Messrs Thameslink saying that the ticket office
>> *should* have sold me a CIV ticket and they they will issue
>>instructions to clarify this.
>>
>> Their response doesn't deal with the fact that the clerk sold me a
>> standard single without CIV privileges without telling me of the
>> substitution. She clearly knew what I wanted as she spent some time
>> checking our Eurostar tickets. I find this very reprehensible.
>>
>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
>> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar
>> at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more. It is
>> apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little
>> publicity about the system anywhere.
>
>I’ve used E* for about 5 single trips and I think I have always used CIV
>tickets. The fact that they aren’t (or are no longer) available from most
>of the online ticket sellers probably limits their popularity. I can’t
>remember whether I noticed whether the domestic portion of, say, an
>Edinburgh-Paris E* booking was CIV tickets, but I think they were.
>
>As always I’m glad to be corrected by more knowledgeable and up to date
>posters!

I post this regularly, for at least perhaps the last fifteen years,
whenever the topic crops up.

If you use a ticket booking site that doesn't accept the 4-digit codes,
then that's your problem! I agree that very few actually publicise the
codes, which is why I wrote that crib sheet. see para 7.

http://perry.co.uk/avantix_for_dummies.html

Hat-tip to the author of Internet-for-Dummies, who posts here from time
to time, and from which I shamelessly stole the title.

Note also that CIV tickets aren't just cheaper (which could be a
historical accident), but guarantee connections, in the sense that if
they cause you to miss the connection, you must be put on the next
available service at no extra charge.

ps. Given it's now two years since the last update, some of the minor
detail might also be out of date.
--
Roland Perry

In message <awE*MzNJy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 14:13:44 on Tue,
22 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
>> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar
>> at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more. It is
>> apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little
>> publicity about the system anywhere.
>
>I haven't been on Eurostar for a while so I don't have much to comment here,
>but I wonder whether the selling of CIV tickets are an answer to the wrong
>problem. You can't buy a Eurostar ticket from a random station, so why are
>we expecting ticket offices to know about CIV tickets?

Because the are in the ticket database (mainly but maybe not exclusively
an Avantix product).

>It seems a bit much to ask the ticket clerks at stations from Penzance
>to Wick to know about them.

If only they had computers and databases to help them look up ticket
prices!!

>Maybe the solution would be for Eurostar to offer a CIV addon ticket at the
>point of sale of the Eurostar fare (and the ability to purchase one
>afterwards).

Traditionally there was something about the E* ticketing site which
didn't allow you to book through travel. So even if your trip was
domestic + E* + an overnight in say Paris + TGV, *ALL* of which they
claimed were bookable thorough their portal, you couldn't actually do
more than two of them at a time.

--
Roland Perry

On 22/03/2022 13:53, Recliner wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:34:30 +0000, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>
>> A follow up to my original post as something remarkable has happened: I got a response from Messrs Thameslink saying that the ticket office *should* have sold me a CIV ticket and they they will issue instructions to clarify this.
>>
>> Their response doesn't deal with the fact that the clerk sold me a standard single without CIV privileges without telling me of the substitution. She clearly knew what I wanted as she spent some time checking our Eurostar tickets. I find this very reprehensible.
>>
>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more. It is apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little publicity about the system anywhere.
>
> My last Eurostar trip was in March 2020. I have no current plans to travel on it in 2022.

I've no plans to use it as it's too inconvenient to and from Wales as
most journey I make would involve an overnight in a hotel somewhere or
other so it's more economical in terms of price and time to use the
(Stena) Harwich - Hook of Holland Ferry.

On 22/03/2022 14:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1cl88$h9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:08:08 on Tue, 22 Mar
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> A follow up to my original post as something remarkable has happened: I
>>> got a response from Messrs Thameslink saying that the ticket office
>>> *should* have sold me a CIV ticket and they they will issue
>>> instructions to clarify this.
>>>
>>> Their response doesn't deal with the fact that the clerk sold me a
>>> standard single without CIV privileges without telling me of the
>>> substitution.  She clearly knew what I wanted as she spent some time
>>> checking our Eurostar tickets.  I find this very reprehensible.
>>>
>>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
>>> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar
>>> at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more.  It is
>>> apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little
>>> publicity about the system anywhere.
>>
>> I’ve used E* for about 5 single trips and I think I have always used CIV
>> tickets.  The fact that they aren’t (or are no longer) available from
>> most
>> of the online ticket sellers probably limits their popularity.  I can’t
>> remember whether I noticed whether the domestic portion of, say, an
>> Edinburgh-Paris E* booking was CIV tickets, but I think they were.
>>
>> As always I’m glad to be corrected by more knowledgeable and up to date
>> posters!
>
> I post this regularly, for at least perhaps the last fifteen years,
> whenever the topic crops up.
>
> If you use a ticket booking site that doesn't accept the 4-digit codes,
> then that's your problem! I agree that very few actually publicise the
> codes, which is why I wrote that crib sheet. see para 7.
>
> http://perry.co.uk/avantix_for_dummies.html
>
> Hat-tip to the author of Internet-for-Dummies, who posts here from time
> to time, and from which I shamelessly stole the title.
>
> Note also that CIV tickets aren't just cheaper (which could be a
> historical accident), but guarantee connections, in the sense that if
> they cause you to miss the connection, you must be put on the next
> available service at no extra charge.
>
> ps. Given it's now two years since the last update, some of the minor
>     detail might also be out of date.

Interesting. 5470 is being translated to "London International (for
Eurostar)". Does that mean it's no longer available for international
connections via Liverpool Street? It used to be.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <awE*MzNJy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 14:13:44 on Tue,
> 22 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
>>> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar
>>> at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more. It is
>>> apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little
>>> publicity about the system anywhere.
>>
>> I haven't been on Eurostar for a while so I don't have much to comment here,
>> but I wonder whether the selling of CIV tickets are an answer to the wrong
>> problem. You can't buy a Eurostar ticket from a random station, so why are
>> we expecting ticket offices to know about CIV tickets?
>
> Because the are in the ticket database (mainly but maybe not exclusively
> an Avantix product).
>
>> It seems a bit much to ask the ticket clerks at stations from Penzance
>> to Wick to know about them.
>
> If only they had computers and databases to help them look up ticket
> prices!!
>
>> Maybe the solution would be for Eurostar to offer a CIV addon ticket at the
>> point of sale of the Eurostar fare (and the ability to purchase one
>> afterwards).
>
> Traditionally there was something about the E* ticketing site which
> didn't allow you to book through travel. So even if your trip was
> domestic + E* + an overnight in say Paris + TGV, *ALL* of which they
> claimed were bookable thorough their portal, you couldn't actually do
> more than two of them at a time.

I’ve just been looking at the E* site to explore holiday options and it
looks as though the only UK station now available is StP, though I can book
to many, but by no means all, stations in mainland France. There’s also an
“any stations in Belgium” option but I can’t find any other stations in the
Netherlands except Amsterdam CS.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 22/03/2022 11:34, Clive Page wrote:

> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar
> at present,
A bear was seen heading towards a forested area, while an old guy in
Rome with a funny hat said he was busy on Sunday.
--
Arthur Figgis

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 13:53, Recliner wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:34:30 +0000, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>
>>> A follow up to my original post as something remarkable has happened: I
>>> got a response from Messrs Thameslink saying that the ticket office
>>> *should* have sold me a CIV ticket and they they will issue instructions to clarify this.
>>>
>>> Their response doesn't deal with the fact that the clerk sold me a
>>> standard single without CIV privileges without telling me of the
>>> substitution. She clearly knew what I wanted as she spent some time
>>> checking our Eurostar tickets. I find this very reprehensible.
>>>
>>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
>>> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking
>>> Eurostar at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any
>>> more. It is apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very
>>> little publicity about the system anywhere.
>>
>> My last Eurostar trip was in March 2020. I have no current plans to travel on it in 2022.
>
> I've no plans to use it as it's too inconvenient to and from Wales as
> most journey I make would involve an overnight in a hotel somewhere or
> other so it's more economical in terms of price and time to use the
> (Stena) Harwich - Hook of Holland Ferry.
>

Surely that depends on your intended destination?

From Cardiff via Eurostar, a day trip to Paris for a late lunch is
possible, or you can get to the south of France, northern Italy or the far
corner of Switzerland in one day.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 11:34, Clive Page wrote:
>
>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
>> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar
>> at present,
>
> A bear was seen heading towards a forested area, while an old guy in
> Rome with a funny hat said he was busy on Sunday.

Eurostar are running 12 trains a day to Paris (roughly hourly) and five a
day to Brussels; several posters here have reported recent or imminent
future air or ship travels, so why should "nobody's travelling Eurostar" be
so obvious?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <awE*MzNJy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 14:13:44 on Tue,
> 22 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
> >I haven't been on Eurostar for a while so I don't have much to comment here,
> >but I wonder whether the selling of CIV tickets are an answer to the wrong
> >problem. You can't buy a Eurostar ticket from a random station, so why are
> >we expecting ticket offices to know about CIV tickets?
>
> Because the are in the ticket database (mainly but maybe not exclusively
> an Avantix product).
>
> >It seems a bit much to ask the ticket clerks at stations from Penzance
> >to Wick to know about them.
>
> If only they had computers and databases to help them look up ticket
> prices!!

The problem is not that the fares aren't in the database, it's that the
customer goes:

C: I'd like a ticket to London to connect with Eurostar
and the ticket clerk hears:
C: I'd like a ticket to London

Unless the clerk knows about the sheningans regarding London International
CIV and validity thereof, they're going to pattern match that with regular
tickets to London. If they're the ticket clerk at Wick they probably sell
relatively few tickets to London and almost no Eurostar connecting tickets,
so why should they know that Eurostar is a special case?

If the retort is 'but databases', do they look up every customer's
requirements? For example the customer says they want a ticket to visit the
Tower of London. The Tower might be on a 2for1 entry deal with a rail
ticket, but is the clerk supposed to type in 'Tower of London' into the
computer and see what comes up? Or simply sell them a ticket to London and
let the customer figure out the rest?

Hence my argument that the place to sell this ticket is at point of sale of
the E* ticket, not regular ticket offices.

That is not to preclude having the fares in online booking engines for
people who know what they want to find them, and perhaps a rename of the
fare to 'London Eurostar' rather than 'International CIV' which is
meaningless to most people. (You could keep the latter as a synonym for
rail+sail purposes)

> Traditionally there was something about the E* ticketing site which
> didn't allow you to book through travel. So even if your trip was
> domestic + E* + an overnight in say Paris + TGV, *ALL* of which they
> claimed were bookable thorough their portal, you couldn't actually do
> more than two of them at a time.

The E* site is a faux-airline site, with all the limitations that brings.
It doesn't have to be that way. If it was run on the DB platform, for
example, it could be quite different.

Theo

On 22/03/2022 23:26, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 11:34, Clive Page wrote:
>
>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar at present,

> A bear was seen heading towards a forested area, while an old guy in Rome with a funny hat said he was busy on Sunday.

Well I've only taken a couple of Eurostar trains in the last year but both were pretty full. And every day or two I walk through most of the shopping centre commonly known as St.Pancras International when transferring between railway stations inconveniently dotted around the periphery. There one can see the long lines of those queueing up to check in to Eurostar and those arriving from it. It looks to me as if numbers are getting close to what they were pre-pandemic. The train schedule is also slowly getting back to normal too, and last weekend I saw that there was a train to Bourg St.Maurice about to depart - the skiers special - which I thought had gone for good.

So it may be that the denizens of this newsgroup are not representative, and that lots of others are keen to travel abroad.

--
Clive Page

On 23/03/2022 09:53, Theo wrote:
> The problem is not that the fares aren't in the database, it's that the
> customer goes:

Well some of the fares are in the main fares database, and others are available to ticket clerks, so they must be in *some* database. The brfares.com site shows some CIV fares from some stations, but the EMR ticket office at St.Pancras was able to find me a cheaper ticket than the cheapest shown in brfares.com, which I was able to buy.

I agree that ideally Eurostar should sell them, and a few years ago it used to, at least from principal stations around the UK, but no longer seems to be interested. As others observe, it's getting more and more like an airline.

--
Clive Page

In message <t1cohd$crf$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:04:13 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 22/03/2022 14:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t1cl88$h9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:08:08 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> A follow up to my original post as something remarkable has happened: I
>>>> got a response from Messrs Thameslink saying that the ticket office
>>>> *should* have sold me a CIV ticket and they they will issue
>>>>instructions to clarify this.
>>>>
>>>> Their response doesn't deal with the fact that the clerk sold me a
>>>> standard single without CIV privileges without telling me of the
>>>> substitution.  She clearly knew what I wanted as she spent some time
>>>> checking our Eurostar tickets.  I find this very reprehensible.
>>>>
>>>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
>>>> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar
>>>> at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more.  It is
>>>> apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little
>>>> publicity about the system anywhere.
>>>
>>> I’ve used E* for about 5 single trips and I think I have always used CIV
>>> tickets.  The fact that they aren’t (or are no longer) available
>>>from most
>>> of the online ticket sellers probably limits their popularity.  I can’t
>>> remember whether I noticed whether the domestic portion of, say, an
>>> Edinburgh-Paris E* booking was CIV tickets, but I think they were.
>>>
>>> As always I’m glad to be corrected by more knowledgeable and up to date
>>> posters!

>> I post this regularly, for at least perhaps the last fifteen years,
>>whenever the topic crops up.

>> If you use a ticket booking site that doesn't accept the 4-digit
>>codes, then that's your problem! I agree that very few actually
>>publicise the codes, which is why I wrote that crib sheet. see para 7.
>> http://perry.co.uk/avantix_for_dummies.html
>> Hat-tip to the author of Internet-for-Dummies, who posts here from
>>time to time, and from which I shamelessly stole the title.
>> Note also that CIV tickets aren't just cheaper (which could be a
>>historical accident), but guarantee connections, in the sense that if
>>they cause you to miss the connection, you must be put on the next
>>available service at no extra charge.

>> ps. Given it's now two years since the last update, some of the
>>minor
>>     detail might also be out of date.
>
>Interesting. 5470 is being translated to "London International (for
>Eurostar)". Does that mean it's no longer available for international
>connections via Liverpool Street? It used to be.

It's possible they are dumbing down the description to the one
overwhelmingly most popular, assuming a train-ferry-train trip
qualifies.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1d370$8dn$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:06:24 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <awE*MzNJy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 14:13:44 on Tue,
>> 22 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
>>>> suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking Eurostar
>>>> at present, or that nobody cares about the CIV rights any more. It is
>>>> apparent that, apart from the-man-in-seat-61, there's very little
>>>> publicity about the system anywhere.
>>>
>>> I haven't been on Eurostar for a while so I don't have much to comment here,
>>> but I wonder whether the selling of CIV tickets are an answer to the wrong
>>> problem. You can't buy a Eurostar ticket from a random station, so why are
>>> we expecting ticket offices to know about CIV tickets?
>>
>> Because the are in the ticket database (mainly but maybe not exclusively
>> an Avantix product).
>>
>>> It seems a bit much to ask the ticket clerks at stations from Penzance
>>> to Wick to know about them.
>>
>> If only they had computers and databases to help them look up ticket
>> prices!!
>>
>>> Maybe the solution would be for Eurostar to offer a CIV addon ticket at the
>>> point of sale of the Eurostar fare (and the ability to purchase one
>>> afterwards).
>>
>> Traditionally there was something about the E* ticketing site which
>> didn't allow you to book through travel. So even if your trip was
>> domestic + E* + an overnight in say Paris + TGV, *ALL* of which they
>> claimed were bookable thorough their portal, you couldn't actually do
>> more than two of them at a time.
>
>I’ve just been looking at the E* site to explore holiday options and it
>looks as though the only UK station now available is StP,

That would rule out them having to offer a three-leg trip, which was I
found they didn't want to do. (I assume you checked a random UK station
to Paris to see if that two-leg trip was on offer.

>though I can book to many, but by no means all, stations in mainland
>France. There’s also an “any stations in Belgium” option

"Any station in Belgium" always was a bonus, but didn't require a
separate ticket, they just accepted the ticket to Brussels anywhere (so
not an extra leg involved).

>but I can’t find any other stations in the Netherlands except
>Amsterdam CS.

Not even Rotterdam? Or do you have to buy a ticket to Amsterdam and stop
short.
--
Roland Perry

In message <dwE*nURJy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 09:53:59 on Wed,
23 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> >I haven't been on Eurostar for a while so I don't have much to comment here,
>> >but I wonder whether the selling of CIV tickets are an answer to the wrong
>> >problem. You can't buy a Eurostar ticket from a random station, so why are
>> >we expecting ticket offices to know about CIV tickets?
>>
>> Because the are in the ticket database (mainly but maybe not exclusively
>> an Avantix product).
>>
>> >It seems a bit much to ask the ticket clerks at stations from Penzance
>> >to Wick to know about them.
>>
>> If only they had computers and databases to help them look up ticket
>> prices!!
>
>The problem is not that the fares aren't in the database, it's that the
>customer goes:
>
>C: I'd like a ticket to London to connect with Eurostar
>and the ticket clerk hears:
>C: I'd like a ticket to London

Do they not train them *at all*, but just parachute them straight behind
the ticket desk from wherever they worked previously?
--
Roland Perry

In message <ja09ulFek37U1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:09:26 on Wed, 23
Mar 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 23/03/2022 09:53, Theo wrote:
>> The problem is not that the fares aren't in the database, it's that the
>> customer goes:
>
>Well some of the fares are in the main fares database, and others are
>available to ticket clerks, so they must be in *some* database. The
>brfares.com site shows some CIV fares from some stations, but the EMR
>ticket office at St.Pancras was able to find me a cheaper ticket than
>the cheapest shown in brfares.com, which I was able to buy.

This is the one I used to buy, and it's still there:

<https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=NOT&dest=LNE>

>I agree that ideally Eurostar should sell them, and a few years ago it
>used to, at least from principal stations around the UK, but no longer
>seems to be interested.

Was that when some stations had a separate "Travel Centre", away from
the routine ticket desk? I remember there being one at Peterborough, in
a room on the left just inside the front door. The general ticket sales
were from windows opening onto the concourse.

(In other news, this is a mess: the colours and symbols in the key and
the plan are wildly inconsistent).

<https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations-and-destinations/stations-
made-easy/peterborough-station-plan> )

>As others observe, it's getting more and more like an airline.

It's always been like that.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ja09lfFehgmU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:04:31 on Wed, 23
Mar 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 22/03/2022 23:26, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 11:34, Clive Page wrote:
>>
>>> The fact that there were very few responses to my original posting
>>>suggests either that hardly anybody on this newsgroup is taking
>>>Eurostar at present,
>
>> A bear was seen heading towards a forested area, while an old guy in
>>Rome with a funny hat said he was busy on Sunday.
>
>Well I've only taken a couple of Eurostar trains in the last year but
>both were pretty full. And every day or two I walk through most of the
>shopping centre commonly known as St.Pancras International when
>transferring between railway stations inconveniently dotted around the
>periphery. There one can see the long lines of those queueing up to
>check in to Eurostar and those arriving from it. It looks to me as if
>numbers are getting close to what they were pre-pandemic. The train
>schedule is also slowly getting back to normal too, and last weekend I
>saw that there was a train to Bourg St.Maurice about to depart - the
>skiers special - which I thought had gone for good.
>
>So it may be that the denizens of this newsgroup are not
>representative, and that lots of others are keen to travel abroad.

The thing is, if you want live anecdata, it would have to be denizens
who had actually travelled in the last couple of months.

Most of what gets posted here is an amalgam of happenings over the last
20-25 years (I think I first went on e* in 1997, not long after Ashford
opened), with fingers firmly crossed that not much has changed recently.
--
Roland Perry