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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

SubjectAuthor
* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
 +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Charles Ellson
 |`- OT: P&O 'redundancies'MB
 `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Theo
  `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
   `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
    `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
     `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
      |`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      | `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Bevan Price
      |  +- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'martin.coffee
      |  |+* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Charles Ellson
      |  ||`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  || `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  ||  `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
      |  ||   `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  ||    +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
      |  ||    |`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  ||    | `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'mechanic
      |  ||    |  `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  ||    |   `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  ||    |    +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Anna Noyd-Dryver
      |  ||    |    |`- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  ||    |    `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  ||    |     `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  ||    |      `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  ||    |       `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  ||    |        `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  ||    |         `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  ||    +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  ||    |`- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  ||    `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Scott
      |  ||     +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  ||     |`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  ||     | `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  ||     `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  ||      `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Scott
      |  ||       `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  | `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  |  `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Tweed
      |  |   +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Tweed
      |  |   | `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |  `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  |   |   `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |    `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  |   |     +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |     |+* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
      |  |   |     ||+* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  |   |     |||`- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
      |  |   |     ||`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  |   |     || +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  |   |     || |`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  |   |     || | `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  |   |     || `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
      |  |   |     ||  +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Scott
      |  |   |     ||  |`- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Anna Noyd-Dryver
      |  |   |     ||  +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
      |  |   |     ||  |+* OT: P&O 'redundancies'hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
      |  |   |     ||  ||`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'NY
      |  |   |     ||  || +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  |   |     ||  || |`- OT: P&O 'redundancies'hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
      |  |   |     ||  || +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Anna Noyd-Dryver
      |  |   |     ||  || |`- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |     ||  || +- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Scott
      |  |   |     ||  || +- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |     ||  || `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Jeremy Double
      |  |   |     ||  ||  `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'NY
      |  |   |     ||  ||   `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |     ||  |+* OT: P&O 'redundancies'hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
      |  |   |     ||  ||`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
      |  |   |     ||  || `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
      |  |   |     ||  ||  +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  |   |     ||  ||  |`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Tweed
      |  |   |     ||  ||  | `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  |   |     ||  ||  `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
      |  |   |     ||  |+* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Sam Wilson
      |  |   |     ||  ||`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'martin.coffee
      |  |   |     ||  || `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  |   |     ||  ||  `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Tweed
      |  |   |     ||  ||   `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
      |  |   |     ||  ||    `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |     ||  |`- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Jeremy Double
      |  |   |     ||  `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  |   |     |`* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Anna Noyd-Dryver
      |  |   |     | `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Recliner
      |  |   |     |  `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |     |   `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  |   |     |    `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |     |     +- OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  |   |     |     `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Anna Noyd-Dryver
      |  |   |     |      +- OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  |   |     |      +- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Scott
      |  |   |     |      +- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Sam Wilson
      |  |   |     |      `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |     |       +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Graeme Wall
      |  |   |     |       |+* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Tweed
      |  |   |     |       |`- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      |  |   |     |       `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'Anna Noyd-Dryver
      |  |   |     +* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Marland
      |  |   |     `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
      |  |   `- OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR
      |  `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'Roland Perry
      `* OT: P&O 'redundancies'ColinR

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Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

<pm8PfRVTE3MiFAU5@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:34:11 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 17
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:34 UTC

In message <vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com>, at 16:39:26 on
Thu, 17 Mar 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>
>How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?

The union claims they are exploiting a loophole. I don't know
what it is, but apparently it must exist. Otherwise the union
would be complaining differently.
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

<t12bvt$9fd$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:28:55 +0000
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 by: ColinR - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:28 UTC

On 17/03/2022 17:34, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com>, at 16:39:26 on
> Thu, 17 Mar 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>
>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>> or (c) redundancy.  I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>> longer existed.  If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>> unfair?  Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>
> The union claims they are exploiting a loophole. I don't know
> what it is, but apparently it must exist. Otherwise the union
> would be complaining differently.

Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff and they
will not have done this unless they had good reason to believe that any
legal challenge would be defeated.

--
Colin

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 19:30:33 +0000
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 by: Charles Ellson - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 19:30 UTC

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:28:55 +0000, ColinR
<rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 17/03/2022 17:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com>, at 16:39:26 on
>> Thu, 17 Mar 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>
>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>> or (c) redundancy.  I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>> longer existed.  If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>> unfair?  Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>
>> The union claims they are exploiting a loophole. I don't know
>> what it is, but apparently it must exist. Otherwise the union
>> would be complaining differently.
>
>Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff and they
>will not have done this unless they had good reason to believe that any
>legal challenge would be defeated.
>
Many people/companies who lose in the High Court have also employed
legal staff at great cost.

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: 19 Mar 2022 10:40:52 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 10:40 UTC

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff and they
> will not have done this unless they had good reason to believe that any
> legal challenge would be defeated.

In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that doing XYZ
would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge, and the CEO has done
it anyway. Sometimes the CEO has gone to jail, other times not.

Theo

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 11:42:22 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 11:42 UTC

On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff and they
>> will not have done this unless they had good reason to believe that any
>> legal challenge would be defeated.
>
> In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that doing XYZ
> would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge, and the CEO has done
> it anyway. Sometimes the CEO has gone to jail, other times not.
>

The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give the
government the required notice that it was making more than 100 staff
redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence. Hence Kwateng's
threat of an unlimited fine. Whether the government has the balls to
back that threat up remains to be seen.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

<lMxsFuggXgNiFAPQ@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 16:33:36 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 32
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 16:33 UTC

In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff and they
>>> will not have done this unless they had good reason to believe that any
>>> legal challenge would be defeated.
>> In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>doing XYZ
>> would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge, and the CEO has done
>> it anyway. Sometimes the CEO has gone to jail, other times not.
>>
>
>The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give the
>government the required notice that it was making more than 100 staff
>redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.

Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather than
trading in UK)?

Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country that
company was based in, are missing from the discussion.

>Hence Kwateng's threat of an unlimited fine. Whether the government has
>the balls to back that threat up remains to be seen.

Presumably such a fine [if due] is only "unlimited" in the sense that it
would depend on the number of employees concerned. I could still be a
reasonably fixed amount each, for an unlimited number of affected
employees.
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 17:23:23 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 17:23 UTC

On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff and they
>>>> will not have done this unless they had good reason to believe that any
>>>> legal challenge would be defeated.
>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>> doing XYZ
>>> would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge, and the CEO has
>>> done
>>> it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to jail, other times not.
>>>
>>
>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give the
>> government the required notice that it was making more than 100 staff
>> redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>
> Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather than
> trading in UK)?
>
> Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country that
> company was based in, are missing from the discussion.

They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.

>
>> Hence Kwateng's threat of an unlimited fine. Whether the government
>> has the balls to back that threat up remains to be seen.
>
> Presumably such a fine [if due] is only "unlimited" in the sense that it
> would depend on the number of employees concerned. I could still be a
> reasonably fixed amount each, for an unlimited number of affected
> employees.

It's apparently not calculated that way.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 18:59:21 +0000
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 18:59 UTC

In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff and they
>>>>> will not have done this unless they had good reason to believe that any
>>>>> legal challenge would be defeated.

>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>doing XYZ would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge, and
>>>>the CEO has done it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to jail,
>>>>other times not.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give the
>>>government the required notice that it was making more than 100 staff
>>>redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>> Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather than
>>trading in UK)?
>> Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country that
>>company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>
>They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.

That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK - no
on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that means)
in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't saying.

>>> Hence Kwateng's threat of an unlimited fine. Whether the government
>>>has the balls to back that threat up remains to be seen.

>> Presumably such a fine [if due] is only "unlimited" in the sense
>>that it would depend on the number of employees concerned. I could
>>still be a reasonably fixed amount each, for an unlimited number of
>>affected employees.
>
>It's apparently not calculated that way.

Somewhere there will guidance, but I don't think it's worth researching
it independently until we know answers to much simpler questions (see
above).

And of course, being union members, they have the experts at such things
batting for them; so I don't think we need to lose any sleep over them
not having fully qualified advocates.
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 19:30:28 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 19:30 UTC

On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff and
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> will not have done this unless they had good reason to believe
>>>>>> that any
>>>>>> legal challenge would be defeated.
>
>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>> doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>> and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>> jail, other times not.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give the
>>>> government the required notice that it was making more than 100
>>>> staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather than
>>> trading in UK)?
>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country that
>>> company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>
>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>
> That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK - no
> on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that means)
> in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't saying.

Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the student.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 20:17:15 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 20:17 UTC

In message <t15b0k$i1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff
>>>>>>>and they will not have done this unless they had good reason to
>>>>>>>believe that any legal challenge would be defeated.
>>
>>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>>>doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>>>and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>>>jail, other times not.
>>>>>
>>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give
>>>>>the government the required notice that it was making more than
>>>>>100 staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.

>>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather
>>>>than trading in UK)?
>>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country
>>>>that company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>>
>>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.

>> That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK -
>>no on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that
>>means) in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't
>>saying.
>
>Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the student.

If it's that easy, and yet has evaded the UK press corps, do tell...
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: bevanpri...@gmail.com (Bevan Price)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 21:12:36 +0000
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 by: Bevan Price - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 21:12 UTC

On 19/03/2022 20:17, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t15b0k$i1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff
>>>>>>>> and  they  will not have done this unless they had good reason
>>>>>>>> to believe  that any  legal challenge would be defeated.
>>>
>>>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>>>> doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>>>> and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>>>> jail, other times not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give
>>>>>> the  government the required notice that it was making more than
>>>>>> 100  staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>
>>>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather
>>>>> than  trading in UK)?
>>>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country
>>>>> that  company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>>>
>>>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>
>>>  That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK -
>>> no  on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that
>>> means)  in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't
>>> saying.
>>
>> Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the
>> student.
>
> If it's that easy, and yet has evaded the UK press corps, do tell...

Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of the
replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark and enter
UK ??

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 22:13:43 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 22:13 UTC

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19/03/2022 20:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t15b0k$i1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff
>>>>>>>>> and  they  will not have done this unless they had good reason
>>>>>>>>> to believe  that any  legal challenge would be defeated.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>>>>> doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>>>>> and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>>>>> jail, other times not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give
>>>>>>> the  government the required notice that it was making more than
>>>>>>> 100  staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>>
>>>>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather
>>>>>> than  trading in UK)?
>>>>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country
>>>>>> that  company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>>
>>>>  That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK -
>>>> no  on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that
>>>> means)  in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't
>>>> saying.
>>>
>>> Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the
>>> student.
>>
>> If it's that easy, and yet has evaded the UK press corps, do tell...
>
>
> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of the
> replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark and enter
> UK ??

I doubt it.

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 22:59:05 +0000
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 by: ColinR - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 22:59 UTC

On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff and
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> will not have done this unless they had good reason to believe
>>>>>> that any
>>>>>> legal challenge would be defeated.
>
>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>> doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>> and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>> jail, other times not.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give the
>>>> government the required notice that it was making more than 100
>>>> staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather than
>>> trading in UK)?
>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country that
>>> company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>
>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>
> That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK - no
> on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that means)
> in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't saying.
>
>>>> Hence Kwateng's threat of an unlimited fine. Whether the government
>>>> has the balls to back that threat up remains to be seen.
>
>>>  Presumably such a fine [if due] is only "unlimited" in the sense
>>> that it  would depend on the number of employees concerned. I could
>>> still be a  reasonably fixed amount each, for an unlimited number of
>>> affected  employees.
>>
>> It's apparently not calculated that way.
>
> Somewhere there will guidance, but I don't think it's worth researching
> it independently until we know answers to much simpler questions (see
> above).
>
> And of course, being union members, they have the experts at such things
> batting for them; so I don't think we need to lose any sleep over them
> not having fully qualified advocates.

P&O is a UK company, but are they the employers? The ships fly an EU
flag, not the UK flag. Are the crew "employed" in the UK or the EU or,
more explicitly, in Cyprus. Suspect this complicated arrangement is
where P&O are hoping to avoid legal sanctions by the UK courts. Of
course, the unions will argue that as P&O is a UK company then UK laws
should apply. Maritime law tends to work on the basis that crew are
employed under flag state rules (i.e. Cyprus).

--
Colin

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

<veidnc3b4918_qv_nZ2dnUU7-X3NnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

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Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Newsgroups: uk.railway
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 by: Arthur Figgis - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 23:14 UTC

On 19/03/2022 22:59, ColinR wrote:

> Maritime law tends to work on the basis that crew are
> employed under flag state rules (i.e. Cyprus).

Although the concept of maritime law has been hijacked by batshit crazy
types to argue all sort sorts of meaningless stuff of late.

--
Arthur of the family Figgis, with gold fringes

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 00:10:21 +0000
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 00:10 UTC

On 19/03/2022 21:12, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 19/03/2022 20:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t15b0k$i1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19
>>>>>> Mar 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff
>>>>>>>>> and  they  will not have done this unless they had good reason
>>>>>>>>> to believe  that any  legal challenge would be defeated.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>>>>> doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>>>>> and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>>>>> jail, other times not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give
>>>>>>> the  government the required notice that it was making more than
>>>>>>> 100  staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>>
>>>>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather
>>>>>> than  trading in UK)?
>>>>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country
>>>>>> that  company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>>
>>>>  That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK -
>>>> no  on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that
>>>> means)  in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't
>>>> saying.
>>>
>>> Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the
>>> student.
>>
>> If it's that easy, and yet has evaded the UK press corps, do tell...
>
>
> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of the
> replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark and enter
> UK ??
>
>
The MCA have the ability to make things very difficult for P&O by
detaining their vessels for minor infringements of the regulations. I
suspect that P&O's vessels are going to be very closely inspected in in
the medium term anyway.

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

<6cuc3hd1118b6g3u8rjm4seckvk7aqs25d@4ax.com>

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 00:55:35 +0000
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 by: Charles Ellson - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 00:55 UTC

On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 00:10:21 +0000,
martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:

>On 19/03/2022 21:12, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 19/03/2022 20:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t15b0k$i1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19
>>>>>>> Mar 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff
>>>>>>>>>> and  they  will not have done this unless they had good reason
>>>>>>>>>> to believe  that any  legal challenge would be defeated.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>>>>>> doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>>>>>> and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>>>>>> jail, other times not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give
>>>>>>>> the  government the required notice that it was making more than
>>>>>>>> 100  staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>>>
>>>>>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather
>>>>>>> than  trading in UK)?
>>>>>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country
>>>>>>> that  company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>>>
>>>>>  That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK -
>>>>> no  on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that
>>>>> means)  in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't
>>>>> saying.
>>>>
>>>> Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the
>>>> student.
>>>
>>> If it's that easy, and yet has evaded the UK press corps, do tell...
>>
>>
>> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of the
>> replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark and enter
>> UK ??
>>
>>
>The MCA have the ability to make things very difficult for P&O by
>detaining their vessels for minor infringements of the regulations. I
>suspect that P&O's vessels are going to be very closely inspected in in
>the medium term anyway.
>
It isn't just the government who can make things awkward. As has
happened maybe more often than some might realise, a civil judgment
obtained by workers against a shipping company can result in a vessel
being impounded.

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

<t16jol$umd$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=25682&group=uk.railway#25682

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 07:05:57 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 07:05 UTC

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 19/03/2022 21:12, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 19/03/2022 20:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t15b0k$i1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19
>>>>>>> Mar 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff
>>>>>>>>>> and  they  will not have done this unless they had good reason
>>>>>>>>>> to believe  that any  legal challenge would be defeated.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>>>>>> doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>>>>>> and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>>>>>> jail, other times not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give
>>>>>>>> the  government the required notice that it was making more than
>>>>>>>> 100  staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>>>
>>>>>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather
>>>>>>> than  trading in UK)?
>>>>>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country
>>>>>>> that  company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>>>
>>>>>  That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK -
>>>>> no  on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that
>>>>> means)  in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't
>>>>> saying.
>>>>
>>>> Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the
>>>> student.
>>>
>>> If it's that easy, and yet has evaded the UK press corps, do tell...
>>
>>
>> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of the
>> replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark and enter
>> UK ??
>>
>>
> The MCA have the ability to make things very difficult for P&O by
> detaining their vessels for minor infringements of the regulations. I
> suspect that P&O's vessels are going to be very closely inspected in in
> the medium term anyway.
>

Yes:
Shapps said vessels would not be allowed to sail with inexperienced crews
and has ordered the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to inspect all vessels
before they return to service.

Officials failed to challenge P&O firings

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/65d5d462-a7c5-11ec-a9dd-14c997a643ea?shareToken=1b9600259ba93c1d4c34bd3c20ed3e01>

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

<t16n1g$rpv$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=25685&group=uk.railway#25685

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 08:01:52 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 08:01 UTC

Bungs, handcuffs and foreign job ads: inside story of the P&O sackings

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4b6f7082-a79e-11ec-a9dd-14c997a643ea?shareToken=adcd50fa88486c205918628264beab60>

It seems this has been done before, and the resulting cut-price competition
forced it on P&O:

Some shipping analysts argue the problems for P&O can be traced back to
2005. That was the year when Irish Ferries staged what many in the industry
describe as a blueprint for last week’s action.

As with P&O, Irish Ferries executed a plan to replace all its workers with
cheap foreign agency labour. Like P&O, it used security personnel to board
two ferries in Pembroke, west Wales, to carry out the order.

There are further echoes down the years. Last week, Captain Eugene Favier
sealed himself and 141 crew on board the Pride of Hull in protest. In 2005,
four Irish Ferries officers barricaded themselves in the control room of
the Isle of Inishmore.

The dispute eventually ended in Irish Ferries obtaining its goal of a far
cheaper workforce than rivals including P&O, Stena and DFDS.

However, according to some, this started to bite P&O only in June last year
when Irish Ferries decided to move in on its lucrative cross-channel route
from Dover. The move meant Irish Ferries could wrap up both the English
Channel and Irish Sea legs of the popular freight “landbridge” from
northern Europe to Ireland.

With hindsight, P&O’s next step was intriguing. After six months of trying
to sell a ferry called Pride of Burgundy, it decided to put it back into
service on the Dover-Calais route and angered Nautilus International, the
officers’ union, by crewing it with agency staff who worked for extended
tours of duty on lower wages.

The union said P&O was undercutting the collective bargaining agreements
and held a ballot that returned a narrow majority against industrial
action. This weekend, Charles Boyle, legal services director at the union,
said: “Looking back, it seemed to foreshadow what happened on March 17.”

A spokesman for P&O insisted it was not a “dry run” for last week’s
sackings and said the Pride of Burgundy had simply been deployed to cover
for other ferries which were being maintained. It is currently laid up in
Dunkirk, and again up for sale.

With its cheap labour force, Irish Ferries has been able to undercut its
rivals on what is an extremely price-sensitive UK-Europe route. For a
family in a car travelling Dover to Calais return in April, P&O was last
night offering £175 compared with DFDS’s £172 and Irish Ferries’ £135.

Talk is rife that P&O has registered its ferries offshore so they do not
have to abide by UK employment laws. The Pride of Hull, for example, is
registered at the port of Nassau in the Bahamas. The Pride of Kent switched
from the UK to Cyprus in 2019.

Verity Slater, partner at law firm Stephens Scown and an expert in maritime
employment law, says this could be enough to avoid UK law. If employees
decided to take legal action, the courts might have to decide whether it
should be judged under English law or seafarer legislation such as the
Maritime Labour Convention. The UK Employment Rights Act, which protects
such rights as statutory redundancy pay and minimum notice periods,
theoretically only applies to British-registered ships belonging to a GB
port. Slater said: “These provisions might not apply ... if they could show
they were working in Great Britain at the time of their dismissal.”

In any case, the company’s redundancy letter refers to a “generous
severance package” which would indicate a settlement deal, whereby
employees receive a sum of money in return for not suing the company for
breaching employment law.

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:30:17 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:30 UTC

In message <t15h02$svf$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:12:36 on Sat, 19 Mar
2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>On 19/03/2022 20:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t15b0k$i1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19
>>>>>>Mar 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff
>>>>>>>>>and  they  will not have done this unless they had good reason
>>>>>>>>>to believe  that any  legal challenge would be defeated.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised
>>>>>>>>that doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal
>>>>>>>>challenge, and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO
>>>>>>>>has gone to jail, other times not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give
>>>>>>>the  government the required notice that it was making more than
>>>>>>>100  staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>>
>>>>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather
>>>>>>than  trading in UK)?
>>>>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country
>>>>>>that  company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>>
>>>>  That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK
>>>>- no  on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever
>>>>that means)  in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they
>>>>aren't saying.
>>>
>>> Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the
>>>student.

>> If it's that easy, and yet has evaded the UK press corps, do tell...
>
>Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of the
>replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark and
>enter UK ??

What would be the legal basis for that?
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:34:02 +0000
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:34 UTC

In message <t16n1g$rpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:01:52 on Sun, 20 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>Talk is rife that P&O has registered its ferries offshore so they do not
>have to abide by UK employment laws. The Pride of Hull, for example, is
>registered at the port of Nassau in the Bahamas. The Pride of Kent switched
>from the UK to Cyprus in 2019.
>
>Verity Slater, partner at law firm Stephens Scown and an expert in maritime
>employment law, says this could be enough to avoid UK law. If employees
>decided to take legal action, the courts might have to decide whether it
>should be judged under English law or seafarer legislation such as the
>Maritime Labour Convention. The UK Employment Rights Act, which protects
>such rights as statutory redundancy pay and minimum notice periods,
>theoretically only applies to British-registered ships belonging to a GB
>port.

And that is perhaps why there's been no suggestion in the media (despite
armies of barrack-room lawyers on social media) that this activity by
P&O is unlawful.
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 12:59:18 +0000
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 by: ColinR - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 12:59 UTC

On 20/03/2022 07:05, Recliner wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/03/2022 21:12, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 19/03/2022 20:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t15b0k$i1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19
>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff
>>>>>>>>>>> and  they  will not have done this unless they had good reason
>>>>>>>>>>> to believe  that any  legal challenge would be defeated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>>>>>>> doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>>>>>>> and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>>>>>>> jail, other times not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give
>>>>>>>>> the  government the required notice that it was making more than
>>>>>>>>> 100  staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather
>>>>>>>> than  trading in UK)?
>>>>>>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country
>>>>>>>> that  company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>>>>
>>>>>>  That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK -
>>>>>> no  on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that
>>>>>> means)  in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't
>>>>>> saying.
>>>>>
>>>>> Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the
>>>>> student.
>>>>
>>>> If it's that easy, and yet has evaded the UK press corps, do tell...
>>>
>>>
>>> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of the
>>> replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark and enter
>>> UK ??
>>>
>>>
>> The MCA have the ability to make things very difficult for P&O by
>> detaining their vessels for minor infringements of the regulations. I
>> suspect that P&O's vessels are going to be very closely inspected in in
>> the medium term anyway.
>>
>
>
> Yes:
> Shapps said vessels would not be allowed to sail with inexperienced crews
> and has ordered the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to inspect all vessels
> before they return to service.
>

However, the MCA would only be able to undertake "port state control"
inspections as the vessels are not UK flagged. Accordingly any
detentions etc would have to be made under international requirements,
not UK requirements and they would have to justify those detentions.

--
Colin

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:09:49 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:09 UTC

On 20/03/2022 10:34, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t16n1g$rpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:01:52 on Sun, 20 Mar
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> Talk is rife that P&O has registered its ferries offshore so they do not
>> have to abide by UK employment laws. The Pride of Hull, for example, is
>> registered at the port of Nassau in the Bahamas. The Pride of Kent
>> switched
>> from the UK to Cyprus in 2019.
>>
>> Verity Slater, partner at law firm Stephens Scown and an expert in
>> maritime
>> employment law, says this could be enough to avoid UK law. If employees
>> decided to take legal action, the courts might have to decide whether it
>> should be judged under English law or seafarer legislation such as the
>> Maritime Labour Convention. The UK Employment Rights Act, which protects
>> such rights as statutory redundancy pay and minimum notice periods,
>> theoretically only applies to British-registered ships belonging to a GB
>> port.
>
> And that is perhaps why there's been no suggestion in the media (despite
> armies of barrack-room lawyers on social media) that this activity by
> P&O is unlawful.

At least one government minister says it could be.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:31:02 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:31 UTC

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20/03/2022 07:05, Recliner wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/03/2022 21:12, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 19/03/2022 20:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t15b0k$i1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19
>>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff
>>>>>>>>>>>> and  they  will not have done this unless they had good reason
>>>>>>>>>>>> to believe  that any  legal challenge would be defeated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>>>>>>>> doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>>>>>>>> and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>>>>>>>> jail, other times not.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give
>>>>>>>>>> the  government the required notice that it was making more than
>>>>>>>>>> 100  staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather
>>>>>>>>> than  trading in UK)?
>>>>>>>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country
>>>>>>>>> that  company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK -
>>>>>>> no  on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that
>>>>>>> means)  in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't
>>>>>>> saying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the
>>>>>> student.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it's that easy, and yet has evaded the UK press corps, do tell...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of the
>>>> replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark and enter
>>>> UK ??
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The MCA have the ability to make things very difficult for P&O by
>>> detaining their vessels for minor infringements of the regulations. I
>>> suspect that P&O's vessels are going to be very closely inspected in in
>>> the medium term anyway.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yes:
>> Shapps said vessels would not be allowed to sail with inexperienced crews
>> and has ordered the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to inspect all vessels
>> before they return to service.
>>
>
> However, the MCA would only be able to undertake "port state control"
> inspections as the vessels are not UK flagged. Accordingly any
> detentions etc would have to be made under international requirements,
> not UK requirements and they would have to justify those detentions.
>

Do the new crew live on the ferries? Otherwise I don’t see how they
survive. According to today’s paper wages are around half (or even less)
than the previous. How can you live in the port towns on third world wages?

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:45:05 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:45 UTC

In message <t1792t$lmd$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:09:49 on Sun, 20 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 20/03/2022 10:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t16n1g$rpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:01:52 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>
>>> Talk is rife that P&O has registered its ferries offshore so they
>>>do not have to abide by UK employment laws. The Pride of Hull, for
>>>example, is registered at the port of Nassau in the Bahamas. The
>>>Pride of Kent switched from the UK to Cyprus in 2019.
>>> Verity Slater, partner at law firm Stephens Scown and an expert in
>>>maritime employment law, says this could be enough to avoid UK law.
>>>If employees decided to take legal action, the courts might have to
>>>decide whether it should be judged under English law or seafarer
>>>legislation such as the Maritime Labour Convention. The UK
>>>Employment Rights Act, which protects such rights as statutory
>>>redundancy pay and minimum notice periods, theoretically only
>>>applies to British-registered ships belonging to a GB port.

>> And that is perhaps why there's been no suggestion in the media
>>(despite armies of barrack-room lawyers on social media) that this
>>activity by P&O is unlawful.
>
>At least one government minister says it could be.

All I've seen is one saying it might be illegal not to have given
sufficient notice to the government, not that the firings were
themselves illegal.
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: P&O 'redundancies'
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:46:55 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:46 UTC

In message <t17aam$gel$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:31:02 on Sun, 20 Mar
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 20/03/2022 07:05, Recliner wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19/03/2022 21:12, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>> On 19/03/2022 20:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t15b0k$i1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 18:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t153ib$ktp$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:23 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 16:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t14fiu$7lf$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:22 on Sat, 19
>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 19/03/2022 10:40, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. P&O employ, at great cost, legions of legal staff
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and  they  will not have done this unless they had good reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to believe  that any  legal challenge would be defeated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  In corporate scandals passim, the lawyers may have advised that
>>>>>>>>>>>> doing XYZ  would be illegal/unlawful/subject to legal challenge,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the CEO has  done  it anyway.  Sometimes the CEO has gone to
>>>>>>>>>>>> jail, other times not.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The most obvious charge here is that the company failed to give
>>>>>>>>>>> the  government the required notice that it was making more than
>>>>>>>>>>> 100  staff redundant and that failure is itself a criminal offence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Would that not apply only to companies registered in UK (rather
>>>>>>>>>> than  trading in UK)?
>>>>>>>>>>  Very simple metrics like who was the employer, and what country
>>>>>>>>>> that  company was based in, are missing from the discussion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They are employed in the UK and that is what counts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  That's the classic oversimplification. Are they working in the UK -
>>>>>>>> no  on ferries. Is the company who employs them based (whatever that
>>>>>>>> means)  in the UK - nobody seems to know, or if they do they aren't
>>>>>>>> saying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Very essy for you to find out, I leave that as an exercise for the
>>>>>>> student.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it's that easy, and yet has evaded the UK press corps, do tell...
>>>>>
>>>>> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of the
>>>>> replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark and enter
>>>>> UK ??
>>>>>
>>>> The MCA have the ability to make things very difficult for P&O by
>>>> detaining their vessels for minor infringements of the regulations. I
>>>> suspect that P&O's vessels are going to be very closely inspected in in
>>>> the medium term anyway.
>>>
>>> Yes:
>>> Shapps said vessels would not be allowed to sail with inexperienced crews
>>> and has ordered the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to inspect all vessels
>>> before they return to service.
>>
>> However, the MCA would only be able to undertake "port state control"
>> inspections as the vessels are not UK flagged. Accordingly any
>> detentions etc would have to be made under international requirements,
>> not UK requirements and they would have to justify those detentions.
>
>Do the new crew live on the ferries? Otherwise I don’t see how they
>survive. According to today’s paper wages are around half (or even less)
>than the previous. How can you live in the port towns on third world wages?

Some reports claim that workers like these work three months straight -
no days off and long hours too. So they don't really need a
place-to-live. Just somewhere on the boat to sleep.
--
Roland Perry

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